• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

?


  • Total voters
    587

Sucumbio

Smash Giant
Moderator
Writing Team
Joined
Oct 7, 2008
Messages
8,440
Location
Icerim Mountains
Zomba did a tier list
Interesting... As usual the same 3 top tiers lol but I do like how his top tier is basically the same as others with their high tier added in (I don't think Steve is top tier but because he's so low in zomba's top category it fits with other's high tier for example). Some odd placements that stuck out: Shulk and MM seem low and Yoshi seems high... Rosa is too low imho...hm.
 

The_Bookworm

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 10, 2018
Messages
3,230

SKX31

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 22, 2019
Messages
3,462
Location
Sweden
There was a problem fetching the tweet

With the obligatory caveat that eTossed later realized a mistake: Belgium, Bulgaria and South Korea should be Sonic.

Overall, while this can feel a bit surface level it is still some really interesting data not least since it shows a mixture of expected and unexpected results through the smash.gg playerbase (both online and offline). Also, one Brazilian team organized all-random tourneys while the one (North) Macedonian counted went Random, so that's why Random's listed as the most popular SSBU character. Late edit: If I'm not wrong then the total number of countries represented in the map is 83.

Google Doc here.

Full image here.
 
Last edited:

Eremurus

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 28, 2020
Messages
185
Location
deep breathing at the gym
There was a problem fetching the tweet

With the obligatory caveat that eTossed later realized a mistake: Belgium, Bulgaria and South Korea should be Sonic.

Overall, while this can feel a bit surface level it is still some really interesting data not least since it shows a mixture of expected and unexpected results through the smash.gg playerbase (both online and offline). Also, one Brazilian team organized all-random tourneys while the one (North) Macedonian counted went Random, so that's why Random's listed as the most popular SSBU character. Late edit: If I'm not wrong then the total number of countries represented in the map is 83.

Google Doc here.

Full image here.
Haha, Mother Russia. How appropriate.
 

Hydreigonfan01

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 24, 2018
Messages
4,578
Didn't Gungir beat Shuton's Pyra with ganondorf? Probably still a losing matchup, but might not be as bad as one may think at first glance.

Video
Online and offline are two completely seperate games. Aegis isn't as good on wifi and Ganondorf is heavily buffed. Also Shuton's Aegis was worse then compared to now.
 
Last edited:

NairWizard

Somewhere
Joined
Oct 28, 2014
Messages
1,947
So if you average cosmos' and sparg0's matchup charts, you have:
  • Wolf, Fox, Joker, and Pacman in even
  • Pikachu in slight loss
  • Diddy Kong as the only loss
And Tweek thinks that Diddy Kong loses quite badly to Pyra/Mythra to the point of preferring Wario or Sephiroth for it, so I think you can safely bet that they don't have any losing matchups.
 

Hydreigonfan01

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 24, 2018
Messages
4,578
So if you average cosmos' and sparg0's matchup charts, you have:
  • Wolf, Fox, Joker, and Pacman in even
  • Pikachu in slight loss
  • Diddy Kong as the only loss
And Tweek thinks that Diddy Kong loses quite badly to Pyra/Mythra to the point of preferring Wario or Sephiroth for it, so I think you can safely bet that they don't have any losing matchups.
In all fairness, Tweek is pretty much pessimistic on every character he plays other then Wolf.
 

KirbySquad101

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 7, 2015
Messages
927
So, from what I'm gathering/summarizing from Cosmo's explanations, the characters that can give Pythra a hard time are:
  • Characters who can bait with their projectiles (Joker, Pac-Man, Diddy Kong)
  • Characters who can match Mythra's speed and frame data (Mii Brawler, Diddy Kong, Pikachu, Lucina, Inkling)
  • Characters who can cover their recovery options (Inkling, Min Min)
The reasoning - to me - makes less sense the more you look at the rest of the cast (i.e. the +1/2 section) and recognize there's a lot of overlap going on across tiers as far as character traits are concerned (Mii Brawler can make Mythra guess but Fox and Sheik can't?). So in that regard, that leads me to believe that for whatever reason, either:

A. Cosmos is underselling the characters in +1/+2 against Pythra
B. Cosmos is underselling Pythra against the characters in even or -1

There was a time where I would've easily said it's A. But considering the theorycraft by multiple pros on the character along with the dominant results to back it up ON TOP of the fact that in practice I'm not seeing a consistent answer to the duo besides MKLeo, I'm leaning towards B. And the fact that I'm leaning towards the possibility that Cosmos is underrating his character when his MU chart already looks as ridiculous as it does kinda worries me lol.

Perhaps I'm simplifying too much, but that's what I'm feeling atm about the character.
 
Last edited:

SKX31

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 22, 2019
Messages
3,462
Location
Sweden
LOSC Esports Fighters #1 (69 entrant regional, organized by Flow's sponsor LOSC*) results:

1st. Raflow :ultpalutena:
2nd. Sisqui :ultdarksamus:
3rd. Leon :ultlucina:
4th. Ogey :ultfalcon:
5th. Mr. E :ultlucina:
5th. ALtek :ultzelda:
7th. Eko :ultdiddy: :ultpalutena: :ultpyra: / :ultmythra:
7th. AndresFN :ultken:
9th. Flow :ultroy:
9th. TriM :ultmegaman: :ultjoker:
9th. Oryon :ultwolf:
9th. PeW :ultness:

Significant win for Raflow still, especially since he took down Sisqui 3-1 in GF.

*(Lille Olympique Sporting Club, French football / soccer team. Also organized Temple: Hermes Edition last year.)
 
Last edited:

Hydreigonfan01

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 24, 2018
Messages
4,578
Mr. R posted his thoughts on some of the top tiers, notably :ultjoker:, :ultpyra: / :ultmythra:, :ultpikachu:, :ultpalutena: and :ultshulk:.
 

blackghost

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 9, 2015
Messages
2,249
I. Am. So. Tired. Of. Shulk's. Potential. As. An. Argument.
Theory craft is fun. Personally I love it to a point. But at some point the bill comes due. Shulk has to do something to justify these takes.and really.more than one shulk player to justify these claims.
Otherwise I'm just gonna argue that mythra and pyra do his monado arts better at lower execution. Sure she doesn't have the free escape but she has switching mixup and an extra air dodge option in its place.
 
Last edited:

Aligo

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 12, 2021
Messages
535
In my opinion the issue with Shulk is that all of his strength is concentrated into two aeriels and a neutral special, with everything else being quite mediocre. That and the fact that his model and animation are rather unsightly.[/QUOTE]
 
Last edited:

Rizen

Smash Legend
Joined
May 7, 2009
Messages
14,965
Location
Fascist ****Hole Of America
In all fairness, Tweek is pretty much pessimistic on every character he plays other then Wolf.
:ultwolf: is a stupid character. I've been using him in tournaments and practicing on wifi. The more I play, the more reassured I am that he's top 5. Blaster is arguably the best projectile in the game; it's transcendent and deals up to 9.6%, which is crazy for that kind of projectile. It's twice what YL's fire arrows deal. Then his DA crosses up shields which makes it hard to punish. F/B/U air and Ftilt are all basically sword attacks in terms of range. He has the 6th best air speed, better than Wario's. And his sideB can snipe players on platforms on the other side of stages like BF. All this gives him the best midrange game of the cast and this is coming from someone who used to main YL. Wolf is stupidly good and safe. Blaster's free. DA's mostly free. SH Fair is also free when spaced right and Fair chains into other aerials. Dash grab's a mix up because people are conditioned to shield. It's crazy.
His Fsmash is slow but strong and hard to punish at -10 on shield. It's great for fairly safe reads. Nair's a sex kick, which are always useful. He has a great kill and damage game. His recovery is linear and on the shorter side but not terrible and his air speed makes escaping juggling effective. The only losing MUs he has IMO are he gets vortexed by the rats, Mario and maybe Ness but those aren't terrible. The only reason Wolf's not number 1 is a few other characters are even more outrageous.
 
Last edited:

Nah

Smash Champion
Joined
May 31, 2015
Messages
2,180
I knew why in his previous list he had Robin twice, but I don't get why Robin is listed twice in this particular list?
 

Rizen

Smash Legend
Joined
May 7, 2009
Messages
14,965
Location
Fascist ****Hole Of America
View attachment 344627

ESAM seems to enjoy these move specific lists lol. This is how he ranks side specials.
I know I've been pessimistic about :ultyounglink: lately but his side special should be moved to busted. Boomerangs are really good and he has the best boomerang because it combos into Fair at any realistic %. YL's boomerang would be broken on a character with better aerials.
 
Last edited:

Arthur97

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 7, 2016
Messages
3,463
Marth's Dancing Blade as busted? Like...as in it doesn't work well? How could his be that high? Then again, "busted" tier seems too big.
 

Frihetsanka

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 26, 2016
Messages
2,252
Location
Sweden
Marth's Dancing Blade as busted? Like...as in it doesn't work well? How could his be that high? Then again, "busted" tier seems too big.
I think he imagines the moves in a vacuum, so imagine like, Mario getting DB. This is why Joker's is only in "nice" since it's good on him partly thanks of his above-average mobility.

Corrin side-B on a character with a strong neutral and good mobility would be scary.
 

Arthur97

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 7, 2016
Messages
3,463
I think he imagines the moves in a vacuum, so imagine like, Mario getting DB. This is why Joker's is only in "nice" since it's good on him partly thanks of his above-average mobility.

Corrin side-B on a character with a strong neutral and good mobility would be scary.
Main issue with Marth's is, surprise, surprise, the tipper. Especially on a move where Marth actively moves so much during it.
 

Sucumbio

Smash Giant
Moderator
Writing Team
Joined
Oct 7, 2008
Messages
8,440
Location
Icerim Mountains
Main issue with Marth's is, surprise, surprise, the tipper. Especially on a move where Marth actively moves so much during it.
Marty's db is annoyingly only useful at certain percents... Like if you use it when your opponent is too low it pushes them away to the point the 4th hit completely wiffs lol. It's frustrating cause I used it a lot in brawl and smash 4 (I don't remember which one but down on hit 4 "green" was a soft spike even).
 

F4lcoMain

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 1, 2022
Messages
55
View attachment 344627

ESAM seems to enjoy these move specific lists lol. This is how he ranks side specials.
Might just be because of wifi, but Gordo is insanely annoying to reflect back with normal attacks since it absorbs some Projectiles like Falco's Lasers and hitting with an attack sometimes extends the characters hurbux, so they still end up getting hit anyways. With Falco specifically, I usually have to use down b to reflect it properly.

I am torn on Falco's Side B being S-Tier. On one hand, I've relied on Side-B -> Back Air to close out a few too many stocks, especially against heavies. However, the move is so exploitable as a recovery and loses to a lot, like shield and attack. Though I think part of the issue is that Falco's Up B is so bad, so you need to rely on Side B way more as a recovery.
 

Linkmain-maybe

Smash Ace
Joined
May 14, 2021
Messages
706
Switch FC
SW-1042-6735-2236
I think he imagines the moves in a vacuum, so imagine like, Mario getting DB. This is why Joker's is only in "nice" since it's good on him partly thanks of his above-average mobility.

Corrin side-B on a character with a strong neutral and good mobility would be scary.
Put it on a character who conditions spotdodge and it would be mega busted.
 
Last edited:

B_Burg

Smash Cadet
Joined
May 1, 2019
Messages
54
Looking at the individual move tier lists ESAM has made so far (and the Smash attack tier list by Panda) got me thinking.

I've talked pessimistically about :ultmegaman: for a bit on here, but I've mentioned that I really like his design. I think these lists emphasize part of why. I don't necessarily agree with the placement of Megaman's moves on all of the lists so far, but I understand why they are where they are. For those who haven't seen, Megaman's moves have all (so far) been placed near the lower end of these lists.

To be fair, they haven't gotten to the strongest stuff in his kit (pellets and metal blade) but in a vacuum I could see why people might think Megaman has a largely mediocre moveset. But things don't really apply in a vacuum in the actual game and Megaman to me kind of feels like a character that is more than the sum of his parts. Moves that seem middling or mediocre, that when applied with the other tools in his moveset, as well as his mobility, have just enough use to make sense.

I wanted to emphasize that because I think there are some characters who kind of suffer from the opposite problem. Characters who have good moves, maybe even a good number of good moves in a vacuum, but that just don't come together in a cohesive way and the character ends up worse for it.


That's all a bunch of theory crafting anyway, but I just wanted to take the opportunity to heap some praise on Megaman's design.
 

Arthur97

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 7, 2016
Messages
3,463
Mega Man's fair isn't busted or anything, but its quick, disjointed, and a kill move. Seems it should be average at absolute worst. Seems pretty good to me.

Crash Bomber though, outside of some niche big brain plays, does seem pretty lackluster.
 

Trunks159

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 4, 2013
Messages
431
Location
Pennsylvania
NNID
Trunks159
I wanted to emphasize that because I think there are some characters who kind of suffer from the opposite problem. Characters who have good moves, maybe even a good number of good moves in a vacuum, but that just don't come together in a cohesive way and the character ends up worse for it.
Yeah like :ultlucas: with his fair and ftilt and downsmash
 

Hydreigonfan01

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 24, 2018
Messages
4,578
Top 8 of recent Georgia weekly
Cardd's Basement is tomorrow, a Georgia super regional. It's absolutely stacked, having Kola, Zomba, Fatality, Peabnut, DDee, Moxi, Teaser, Mugen, omega, Sonido, Anathema, Wrath, Vendetta, Jahzz0 and more.
 
Last edited:

Hippieslayer

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 12, 2008
Messages
961
Location
Azeroth
Mii Swordfighters Ike like side-B is really good, has less endlag, goes through opponents, and the uncharged version goes pretty far esp if done from a jump. Also helps that people can't tell it apart from their falcon kick down-b. Kinda don't get why more people don't use it. Looking at Swordfighter sets they don't really get that much mileage out of chakram anyway.

Having good burst is really useful when you're a slow character.
 

TCT~Phantom

Smash Master
Writing Team
Joined
Dec 10, 2013
Messages
3,965
NNID
TCT~Phantom
Mii Swordfighters Ike like side-B is really good, has less endlag, goes through opponents, and the uncharged version goes pretty far esp if done from a jump. Also helps that people can't tell it apart from their falcon kick down-b. Kinda don't get why more people don't use it. Looking at Swordfighter sets they don't really get that much mileage out of chakram anyway.

Having good burst is really useful when you're a slow character.
Not good enough to ever consider giving up Chakram, his best move by a country mile. Ask any of the few MSF mains out there and they will tell you this character rides or dies on chakram. There’s a very clear reason every msf used chakram: it’s just super versatile. It spaces, it anti airs, it can edgeguard, it does so much for msf.
 

MrGameguycolor

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 16, 2015
Messages
1,240
Location
Somewhere in this Universe
NNID
MrGameguycolor
Switch FC
7681-9716-5789
Not good enough to ever consider giving up Chakram, his best move by a country mile. Ask any of the few MSF mains out there and they will tell you this character rides or dies on chakram. There’s a very clear reason every msf used chakram: it’s just super versatile. It spaces, it anti airs, it can edgeguard, it does so much for msf.
Shuriken isn't a terrible replacement, so it's your best bet if you wanna run Gale Stab.

But to quote MockRock: "Just run Gale Strike & Chakram."
Up & down specials are free reign at least :D
 

Hydreigonfan01

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 24, 2018
Messages
4,578
MkLeo is playing Corrin and thinks the character is good.
 

Diddy Kong

Smash Obsessed
Joined
Dec 8, 2004
Messages
26,315
Switch FC
SW-1597-979602774
MkLeo is playing Corrin and thinks the character is good.
This will be very interesting. Corrin has been a character that was largely underused , am curious to see where this will go
 

Djmarcus44

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 25, 2015
Messages
479
Assuming the side b list is ordered like the other lists, ESAM is 3/3 for sleeping on Gunner's moves. Although he knows Gunner's missiles are good, it should be on the top row. It is way too versatile to be ranked below moves like Brawler's suplex or ZSS's plasma whip. Gunner's arm rocket should be a tier higher because it has great frame data which allows the move to be an escape option from juggling or shield pressure. Gunner's fair should be in the top tier because it has great combo potential, and it sets up into kill moves. The transcendant property of the move combined with gundash mobility keep this move from being a worse version of Villager/Isabelle fair.

Also, lets not ignore the fact that Gunner has the highest ranked solo main of the miis. In addition, Katakiri has beaten ESAM's brawler in multiple sets with Gunner. The character has a decent case to enter the high tier conversation.
 

SKX31

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 22, 2019
Messages
3,462
Location
Sweden
Wanted: St. Valentin Edition results (303 entrants):

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/sr2zt8
Notes:

  • Gluttony got 17th after losing to Mr. E and Mezcaul, which is a bit weird. He looked entirely on form just yesterday and won Dojo 16, so maybe it was fatigue or something along those lines? Sisqui did get 3rd after getting 2nd at Dojo, so not sure if I should say it's fully on that - although several others who placed highly at Dojo underperformed here like Raflow and AndresFN... so maybe?
  • Think this is eMass' first EU win - while this is not a major per OrionStats' definion (it qualifies as a superregional - Category 3+) I'd still say that this is a major achievement for him. Think he's the first Saudi / Middle Eastern player to win a tournament of this scale.
  • Other great performances include Flow - who went on a rampage this tournament and vastly improved on his 9th at the recent LOSC Fighter; Homika, who forced Sisqui to Game 5 in the Losers Semis and whose 4th is a significant improvement over his average performance at 2021's French nationals; and Amiin, whose 9th place is a major improvement over 49th at Wanted #3.
  • Was a really weird Grand Final apparently - Flow 3-0'ed eMass, eMass 3-0'd him back. Especially weird since the WB Final set went 3-2 eMass.
 
Last edited:
Top Bottom