Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[blackghost]

Besides Smash isn't most fighting games.

true but there are still general rules all good fighting games follow.
smash really only bends the rules when it comes to mobility

 

[Linkmain-maybe]

I’m not playing devil’s advocate. I genuinely like the game more this way, but I should recognize my own bias. One of the reasons I’ve found Ultimate more competitively enjoyable and accessible than its predecessors is the reduced importance of reaction time. Moving the window to 17-21 frames creates unreactable situations while keeping other relevant timing-based reactions. Brawl and 4 had really obnoxious reactionary situations that prevented me from really keeping up against great players.

Of course, Ultimate does this in other ways than input lag like universal ledge getup animations being so slow and shield drop being 7 frames (in 4 you could cover both roll and getup on reaction by shielding at ledge), but the lag is a big part of it.

But you guys are right, the feel of the game is definitely more important than that. My competitive experience represents a small piece of the pie relative to all smash play.

(If the game really feels heavy to you though, it's not the input lag, it's the buffer system imo)

No, it’s the input lag making it feel clunky for me. Dying because your shield wont come up even though you pressed it is terrible. Buffer system bothers me 1/1000 matches with buffered airdodge off the ledge. Input lag kills me every 1/10 games. It just, doesn’t feel good. Especially since online gives like 15 input lag frames, which is massive. It also makes parries harder.

 

[Sucumbio]

No, it’s the input lag making it feel clunky for me. Dying because your shield wont come up even though you pressed it is terrible. Buffer system bothers me 1/1000 matches with buffered airdodge off the ledge. Input lag kills me every 1/10 games. It just, doesn’t feel good. Especially since online gives like 15 input lag frames, which is massive.

This is why I can't play seriously online but offline and in general I've gotten used to it.

 

[NairWizard]

No, it’s the input lag making it feel clunky for me. Dying because your shield wont come up even though you pressed it is terrible. Buffer system bothers me 1/1000 matches with buffered airdodge off the ledge. Input lag kills me every 1/10 games. It just, doesn’t feel good. Especially since online gives like 15 input lag frames, which is massive. It also makes parries harder.

Hold on. I get the "good for casual feel" argument and am willing to accept that my view is nonstandard, but this post doesn't make sense to me.

Of course online increasing the input lag makes it rubbish, that's true no matter what your base input lag value is set to just because adjusting the input lag makes the game completely different.

But I don't understand the "dying because your shield won't come up even though you pressed it" bit. Your shield is frame 1, with 6 frames of input lag it just comes out on frame 7. You're dying because your shield came out on frame 7?

We're talking about a couple of frames here, not the difference between 6 frames and 0 frames. SF6 had 6 frames input lag and was modified to have, what, 3.5? 4? Tekken I believe also has 5 or 6. Smash 4 had 5. If the input lag in Ultimate were reduced, it'd be reduced to like 4 frames, not to Melee levels (3? or even that may be 4). If input lag were really 0 frames, shield wouldn't be frame 1 in this game. I mean, the whole engine would need a rework at that point to make any sense.

Realistically, if a change were made, your shield would come out 2 frames faster. If you'd really die that much less with shield coming out 2 frames faster, then it could be that you're not using enough mobility in general. Smash is a platform fighter with emphasis on mobility, so that situation just sounds strange to me.

Unless you're just talking about online, in which case, yeah, screw online.

 

[Sucumbio]

Hold on. I get the "good for casual feel" argument and am willing to accept that my view is nonstandard, but this post doesn't make sense to me.

Of course online increasing the input lag makes it rubbish, that's true no matter what your base input lag value is set to just because adjusting the input lag makes the game completely different.

But I don't understand the "dying because your shield won't come up even though you pressed it" bit. Your shield is frame 1, with 6 frames of input lag it just comes out on frame 7. You're dying because your shield came out on frame 7?

We're talking about a couple of frames here, not the difference between 6 frames and 0 frames. SF6 had 6 frames input lag and was modified to have, what, 3.5? 4? Tekken I believe also has 5 or 6. Smash 4 had 5. If the input lag in Ultimate were reduced, it'd be reduced to like 4 frames, not to Melee levels (no input lag). If input lag were really 0 frames, shield wouldn't be frame 1 in this game. I mean, the whole engine would need a rework at that point to make any sense.

Realistically, if a change were made, your shield would come out 2 frames faster. If you'd really die that much less with shield coming out 2 frames faster, then it could be that you're not using enough mobility in general. Smash is a platform fighter with emphasis on mobility, so that situation just sounds strange to me.

Unless you're just talking about online, in which case, yeah, screw online.

I think intuitively the lag is longer than the expected reaction window for some players myself not included so buffering for me isn't normally an issue but can be occasionally. But for especially fast characters like sheik and mythra this can be annoying to survive against and to execute with as a main.

 

[Nah]

I get what Solid means about the/a game being better when a good reaction time is not necessary (though idk if Ultimate is really that much different from previous games in that regard but we don't need to get into that). It's not particularly great knowing that (part of) what's holding you back and/or making a game less enjoyable is a physical limitation that you have little to no control over that will also probably get worse with age, and not something skill or knowledge based.

But I'd think that there's better ways to do it than relatively high input delay, right?

 

[Sucumbio]

I get what Solid means about the/a game being better when a good reaction time is not necessary (though idk if Ultimate is really that much different from previous games in that regard but we don't need to get into that). It's not particularly great knowing that (part of) what's holding you back and/or making a game less enjoyable is a physical limitation that you have little to no control over that will also probably get worse with age, and not something skill or knowledge based.

But I'd think that there's better ways to do it than relatively high input delay, right?

No idea... I understand it's in part to help balance between skill gaps I but it absolutely comes at the cost of people reacting quicker than "allowed." So it's maybe a toggle that could reduce the standard frames by 2 or 3 frames idk.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Sparg0's new Aegis and Cloud matchup charts

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[Luig]

Yes, a lot of the input lag definitely comes from weird engine stuff that would be hard to fix, or at least take some effort, in regards to queued frames and the rendering pipeline and whatnot. You could get rid of 2 frames for free though by just turning off triple buffered vsync.

No idea... I understand it's in part to help balance between skill gaps I but it absolutely comes at the cost of people reacting quicker than "allowed." So it's maybe a toggle that could reduce the standard frames by 2 or 3 frames idk.

I'd love a toggle for that, it'd feel great to feel a bit less heavy. Also NairWizard , I recognize the difference between buffer and input lag, and I know what I'm calling heavy is the input lag. Even if you cognitively get used to it, holding right and having the character wait 8 frames to go right feels heavy in the air and stuff. My friend made an assembly hack for mario 64 to get rid of the triple buffered vsync, and my first thought was that it felt lighter. Same with rivals of aether, celeste, skate 3 (On PS3 there was an option to turn it off) and many games I've played, when i turn off vsync there's a small, but appreciable difference in the game feeling 'lighter'.

I do know what you mean about the buffer system being a bit borked though.

 

[Linkmain-maybe]

Sparg0's new Aegis and Cloud matchup charts

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Why would Cloud go even with Link? He has less speed but Cloud gets hit offstage once and Link hits 1 soft NAIR, he dies. Cloud beats link in neutral slightly more often, but every hit that Link gets just means so much more! I would like to hear some cloud mains help explain this.

 

[Rizen]

Sparg0's new Aegis and Cloud matchup charts

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Like I've said, hates swords and does well against them. Wolf makes a great secondary for YL (or anyone lol).

Why would Cloud go even with Link? He has less speed but Cloud gets hit offstage once and Link hits 1 soft NAIR, he dies. Cloud beats link in neutral slightly more often, but every hit that Link gets just means so much more! I would like to hear some cloud mains help explain this.

I generally agree with this and that Link's one of the best characters at gimping Cloud and weak recoveries. But I think Cloud does better than you're giving him credit for at spacing Link with Bairs and generally pressuring Link. Cloud also has limit for kills so it works out about even.

 

[Zatchiel]

Link hits 1 soft NAIR, he dies. Cloud beats link in neutral slightly more often, but every hit that Link gets just means so much more! I would like to hear some cloud mains help explain this.

The soft nair gimp mostly comes into play when Cloud doesn't have limit and gets sent at a bad angle (think bad DI on Link's nair or ftilt). Cloud's bair is a strong challenge to Link's nair in neutral also, and Cloud's uair renders it a riskier option in disadvantage.

However, like you said, if nair hits it's great at setting Cloud up for edgeguard situations. In many cases another well timed aerial or ftilt might seal the deal (the latter if he tries to airdodge to ledge, as in trying to maintain limit usually).

 

[Hippieslayer]

Yes, a lot of the input lag definitely comes from weird engine stuff that would be hard to fix, or at least take some effort, in regards to queued frames and the rendering pipeline and whatnot. You could get rid of 2 frames for free though by just turning off triple buffered vsync.

I'd love a toggle for that, it'd feel great to feel a bit less heavy. Also NairWizard , I recognize the difference between buffer and input lag, and I know what I'm calling heavy is the input lag. Even if you cognitively get used to it, holding right and having the character wait 8 frames to go right feels heavy in the air and stuff. My friend made an assembly hack for mario 64 to get rid of the triple buffered vsync, and my first thought was that it felt lighter. Same with rivals of aether, celeste, skate 3 (On PS3 there was an option to turn it off) and many games I've played, when i turn off vsync there's a small, but appreciable difference in the game feeling 'lighter'.

I do know what you mean about the buffer system being a bit borked though.

Smash 4 may be a worse game, but try going back and playing it and it feels so damn smooth, responsive, and as you said "light". Play that for a couple of hours and go back to ultimate and it just feels horrible in comparison.

I don't think more input lag evens out the skill gap at all, if anything I think it benefits the stronger players over the weaker overall. Because with more input lag you have to do every input slightly preemptively which requires understanding whats going to happen ahead of time which benefits those who understand the game better.

 

[PK Gaming]

Hold on. I get the "good for casual feel" argument and am willing to accept that my view is nonstandard, but this post doesn't make sense to me.

Of course online increasing the input lag makes it rubbish, that's true no matter what your base input lag value is set to just because adjusting the input lag makes the game completely different.

But I don't understand the "dying because your shield won't come up even though you pressed it" bit. Your shield is frame 1, with 6 frames of input lag it just comes out on frame 7. You're dying because your shield came out on frame 7?

We're talking about a couple of frames here, not the difference between 6 frames and 0 frames. SF6 had 6 frames input lag and was modified to have, what, 3.5? 4? Tekken I believe also has 5 or 6. Smash 4 had 5. If the input lag in Ultimate were reduced, it'd be reduced to like 4 frames, not to Melee levels (3? or even that may be 4). If input lag were really 0 frames, shield wouldn't be frame 1 in this game. I mean, the whole engine would need a rework at that point to make any sense.

Realistically, if a change were made, your shield would come out 2 frames faster. If you'd really die that much less with shield coming out 2 frames faster, then it could be that you're not using enough mobility in general. Smash is a platform fighter with emphasis on mobility, so that situation just sounds strange to me.

Unless you're just talking about online, in which case, yeah, screw online.

Yeah the input lag is annoying, not "I died because my shield didn't come up in time"

If that's happening that sounds like a player anticipation issue, or a bad habit (ie: jumping of shield)

I don't think the game is better off with it but the hyperboles surrounding it have always irked me.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Good fighting games let you compensate for worse reaction time by letting you be able to focus on and master other aspects of the game, primarily by prioritizing mental stack. Raw reaction time can only help you so often when your brain is looking for too many things at once, and giving you options to overwhelm your opponent's mental stack is the way to go.

 

[Idon]

Smash 4 may be a worse game, but try going back and playing it and it feels so damn smooth, responsive, and as you said "light". Play that for a couple of hours and go back to ultimate and it just feels horrible in comparison.

Yeah and it's not just Smash. Every fighting game I played in my life has responsiveness that's acceptable... except Pokken Wii U, that was kinda buns.

The input lag combined with the buffer combined with the sticky ledges combined with the C-stick not accepting inputs until completely resetting to neutral are all issues I have with the game that don't have anything to do with the actual "core" mechanics. It just makes playing the game feel worse to play as a whole.

 

[PK Gaming]

Good fighting games let you compensate for worse reaction time by letting you be able to focus on and master other aspects of the game, primarily by prioritizing mental stack. Raw reaction time can only help you so often when your brain is looking for too many things at once, and giving you options to overwhelm your opponent's mental stack is the way to go.

The mental stack concept is a really good read and legitimately lifechanging for me

 

[NairWizard]

Input lag has a real, tangible effect, but at this point (some of) you guys are just arbitrarily attributing all negative feelings to the input lag imo.

Smash 4 may be a worse game, but try going back and playing it and it feels so damn smooth, responsive, and as you said "light". Play that for a couple of hours and go back to ultimate and it just feels horrible in comparison.

So I thought that smash 4 had 5 frames of input lag, but then I read on the smash wiki that it had 7. There is exactly one video on YouTube that suggests that smash 4 has less input delay than Ultimate (edit to poster below me: yes, that video that you linked IS the video I'm talking about). Here's Beefy Smash Doods on S4 input delay: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9nT2VOLwrqk&ab_channel=BeefySmashDoods

Even if Ultimate does have more delay, you are likely dealing with less than 1 frame of difference. I don't think 1 frame leads to a much smoother, more responsive, and lighter feeling.

4 is more reactionary and smoother for other reasons. The buffer system, C-stick issues, online, monitors, character gravity, etc are all probably having more of an effect on your gameplay feel.

Melee is the best comparison if you want to talk about the effects of input lag, or maybe 64.

Good fighting games let you compensate for worse reaction time by letting you be able to focus on and master other aspects of the game, primarily by prioritizing mental stack. Raw reaction time can only help you so often when your brain is looking for too many things at once, and giving you options to overwhelm your opponent's mental stack is the way to go.

Highly accurate. The "problem" with smash and why reaction time has always been so important is burst options; it's easy to limit what you have to worry about at any given time just by spacing yourself at midrange. Ultimate made this better in many ways; input lag just happens to be part of the pie here. It'd require a different design without it.

Last post on the topic from me, though, not sure what more can be said.

 

[Luig]

That video is excellent, I quite like the top comment on it too.

This is also where the concept of ‘conditioning’ takes hold. Conditioning is basically about manipulating your opponents mental stack to prioritize watching certain things and using the least predictable option you know you have, although the mind games do go further than that. Characters with more options than their opponent have to watch for less options, but also have to keep their own list of options in mind at the same time to remain unpredictable. The key to adaptation is to stay open minded, pick apart your opponents options, and simply do the best counter options relative to your character, which takes practice if you wanna do it on reaction, but lets you focus on deeper mind games and more creativity then you would trying to keep in mind all of your options at once. If you are by default doing the best counters you have, then you can base your mind games around that and keep information like your opponents playstyle in mind.

I don't believe that lower input lag would massively impact how I or most people play the game, I don't think reading or mindgames would really become less important or anything like that.

So I thought that smash 4 had 5 frames of input lag, but then I read on the smash wiki that it had 7. There is exactly one video on YouTube that suggests that smash 4 has less input delay than Ultimate. Here's Beefy Smash Doods on S4 input delay: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9nT2VOLwrqk&ab_channel=BeefySmashDoods

this one does as well.

The 3DS version is a hell of a lot less laggy than either.
also, the smashwiki page actually cites the beefy smash doods video for smash 4's section, but just doesn't cite anything for the ultimate section. if they had cited the BSD video for both, they would've reached the same conclusion, and most stuff i see points towards ult having at least 1 more frame of input lag than wii u did (and 2 or more than 3ds)

Frame delay

Frame delay is the time difference between an input being given and the result being executed in a game. In other words, it is the amount of time it takes for an attack to actually begin after the button has been pressed.

www.ssbwiki.com

 

[Trunks159]

It's not even a character, but I am very disappointed that the input lag has never been fixed since the game's release. When SFV had 6, it was ridiculed until capcom changed it. Just think it'd really increase my enjoyment, would feel nice and light.

Anyways, honestly the change list was a lot smaller than I expected. Unsure why i expected a grand big last patch I guess, haha. I'm most confused by the min-min nerfs, I'm not sure if I really say people clamoring for her to be nerfed.

It's a universal Switch game problem. It's been a problem in the Splatoon community too.

 

[Luig]

It's a universal Switch game problem. It's been a problem in the Splatoon community too.

Oh yeah, I wouldn't doubt it if most games that look reasonably nice are just running too far ahead of the CPU, but I do at least know an option to toggle off vsync is a free 2 frames off input lag.

 

[Trunks159]

Oh yeah, I wouldn't doubt it if most games that look reasonably nice are just running too far ahead of the CPU, but I do at least know an option to toggle off vsync is a free 2 frames off input lag.

I don't think it's a cpu issue thought it could be. I think it's the wireless connectors in the switch itself. The Switch usually has a slightly weaker wifi signal than my phone for instance. It'd be nice if running the controllers wired would fix this issue but for some reason it doesn't.

 

[Luig]

I don't think it's a cpu issue thought it could be. I think it's the wireless connectors in the switch itself. The Switch usually has a slightly weaker wifi signal than my phone for instance. It'd be nice if running the controllers wired would fix this issue but for some reason it doesn't.

Reddit - Dive into anything

www.reddit.com

this is what I'm talking about, the top comment. For games that are very taxing it generally helps framerate consistency to make it larger, increasing input lag.

The Max Pre-rendered Frames setting controls the size of the flip queue.

For each frame rendered, the CPU has to create a command buffer - which is then fed to the GPU. The Flip Queue is a queue of such command buffers.

Why a queue? Because sometimes the CPU might not be able to create a command buffer on time (maybe it got interrupted by some OS task ... etc.) the queue would give a buffer of sorts and the GPU can continue to knock out frames - the CPU can then try to "catch back up" to keep the Flip Queue full.

A large queue would buffer against frame rate inconsistencies due to the CPU not being on time but would add latency since the command buffers sent to the GPU process are "old" vs what is being simulated by the game.

A small queue would have low latency but if the CPU fails to keep up, the GPU won't have anything to process and will idle until the command buffer arrives (late) resulting in stutter.

You can use a lower queue if your CPU is good and the game isn't too demanding on the CPU - default is 3, lowest in DX is 1.

 

[The_Bookworm]

CEO 2021 top 96 starts today, and I will say, a player by the name of JAVI ON EARTH is making some major upsets.

Yesterday, he beat Br1 AV 2-0. He was then sent to loser's by Sonix 0-2.
Today, he beat: Vinny G 2-0, Player-1 2-0, and Tachyon 2-1 to make it to top 24 loser's.

After some checking, he is apparently 5th in the Central Florida Power Rankings, but I don't think I have ever heard of him before.


Edit: Can someone post something here? I have the top 24 standings, but I don't want to double post.

 

[SKX31]

CEO 2021 went from a supermajor to a regional with most of the top talent dropping out

TBF it might have enough to qualify as a supermajor, although if it doesn't I'd still argue it qualifies as a major.

Still though, I'd imagine it's due to unfortunate timing what with SWT just two weeks away (edit: and the COVID surge). The main positive here is that lesser-seen talent get some airtime (which we're seeing with Zinoto, ChocoTaco, Teaser etc.), and I'd say that's important in a scene where the absolute top level draws arguably too much attention.

Why would Cloud go even with Link? He has less speed but Cloud gets hit offstage once and Link hits 1 soft NAIR, he dies. Cloud beats link in neutral slightly more often, but every hit that Link gets just means so much more! I would like to hear some cloud mains help explain this.

Cloud's main advantage in neutral vs. Link is being able to close in quick and play reactionary: he can pre-empt Boomerang or even Link's sword swings in neutral (B-Air is minus 3 on shield, as safe as an aerial can be, and it negates arrow / boomerang). Spin Attack does help Link as usual, but Cloud in return has Climbhazzard and a number of other buttons to help put Link at an awkward position (D-Tilt, U-Tilt) Yes, Link's N-Air does help him immensely in disadvantage too, but Cloud's no slouch at juggling either.

I'm not sure how the recent buffs both got affect the MU: Link has to watch out for Cloud FT confirms now (those confirms might allieviate Cloud's problem with heavies to some extent), while the buff to D-Tilt does give him a good response to Cloud's ordinary pressure.

I'd still say the MU is evenish, but it looks more volatile post-patch.

 

[The_Bookworm]

CEO 2021 Top 24


Winner's
Toast vs MVD
Zinoto vs Glutonny
WaDi vs Kola
MuteAce vs ESAM


Loser's
Goblin vs JAVI ON EARTH
KirbyKid vs Myran
LingLing vs Mugen
Chronos vs Zomba
Aaron vs Teaser
Anathema vs Sonix
Jake vs ChocoTaco
Fatality vs Uncivil ninja


With Tweek, Marss, Light, Maister, and Dabuz dropping out as the seedings was finalized, this event is definitely no where near as big as it could've been. Still have some good talent in display.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

JAVI ON EARTH 2-0 Goblin (Goblin eliminated at 17th)

This has been one crazy losers run for JOE.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

LingLing 2-0 ESAM

ESAM definetely seems to have a Peach problem

 

[The_Bookworm]

CEO 2021 Top 8


Winner's
MVD vs Glutonny
Kola vs MuteAce


Loser's
Myran vs Zomba
ESAM vs Fatality

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

LingLing 2-0 ESAM

ESAM definetely seems to have a Peach problem

It was MuteAce who 2-0'd ESAM.

 

[PK Gaming]

It's interesting to me how Pikachu seemingly keeps losing winning matchups at high-level play

Maybe people will finally realize the character's utter lack of consistent onstage KO ability, low range, and the fact that it constantly eats trades makes Pikachu a lot less effective in practice

 

[Thinkaman]

I really just feels like the ceiling to optimize against Pika is just as high as the ceiling to optimize Pika himself. Highly-precise aerials or grabs calling out Pikachu's specific, unique approach patterns is just giving people huge rewards against a lightweight character.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

I honestly think atm Kishiru is the Pikachu that is popping off at the moment instead of ESAM after Glitch 8.5. Kishiru got 13th at the recent Kagaribi 5 (a much more stacked tourney then this due to the large drop outs) and was able to get into the EPI 2 finals (he also got into the first one) being 2nd seed for his group, including beating Zackray, Kome and Noi.

 

[PK Gaming]

I really just feels like the ceiling to optimize against Pika is just as high as the ceiling to optimize Pika himself. Highly-precise aerials or grabs calling out Pikachu's specific, unique approach patterns is just giving people huge rewards against a lightweight character.

Mhm, I think you hit the nail on the head.

This is why the insane hype for the character, the fearmongering, has always been absurd to me. Characters that Pikachu "stomps" can absolutely win due to the nature of Ultimate. It's exceedingly rare for a character to utterly box another out, and player skill is so, so, so determinant in determining outcomes for a particular match. Hardcore character theorycrafting is flat-out outdated at this point imo (which is why tier lists that flat out ignore tournament results and stick Pikachu in top 2 are so silly).

 

[Idon]

Holy **** Fatality was playing with MVD at the end there.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

looking like a really good character today. Too bad Fatality will now be running into his bracket demon Kola (I believe Kola has an 85% win rate on Fatality this season at locals), the #1 vs the #2 on the Georgia PR for Losers Semi's. Should be a very fun set either way.

 

[PK Gaming]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

That set was something else, jesus. I feel exhausted after watching it haha

MuteAce definitely has a future as a top Peach main though

 

[StrangeKitten]

My Plant dair failed to get a spike on Sheik. I know she's not the easiest character to hit, but this still says to me that Plant dair remains eh.

 

[The_Bookworm]

CEO 2021 (777 Entrants)

1st: Kola
2nd: Glutonny
3rd: MuteAce
4th: Fatality
5th: MVD
5th: Zomba
7th: ESAM
7th: Myran

Spoiler: Top 24

9th: Toast
9th: Sonix
9th: Zinoto
9th: WaDi

13th: Aaron
13th: Mugen
13th: JAVI ON EARTH
13th: Jake

17th: Teaser
17th: Goblin
17th: LingLing
17th: Uncivil ninja
17th: Anathema
17th: ChocoTaco
17th: KirbyKid
17th: Chronos

Spoiler: Top 48

25th: Zie
25th: Riku
25th: Gidy
25th: Donquavious
25th: Tachyon
25th: D2da
25th: The6Master
25th: Synergy

33rd: Br1 AV
33rd: Sem
33rd: ChunkyKong
33rd: Twan
33rd: Peanut
33rd: Phuzix
33rd: AoS
33rd: Mew2King
33rd: Chewie
33rd: Player-1
33rd: Peabnut
33rd: Dakpo
33rd: Kwaz
33rd: m0use
33rd: JMafia
33rd: Sonido

 

[toonito]

I might be drawing a blank but I think this is 1st major win not just in Ultimate but in any Smash game