Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Hydreigonfan01]

Orionstats update

There was a problem fetching the tweet

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[Aligo]

Now that Sora has been out for a bit, how would people place him in the meta? I don't really know myself as I haven't played against him very often offline.

 

[Arthur97]

I can't imagine we'll ONLY see Sora bug fixes. This is apparently the last patch with fighter adjustments in it at all. I wouldn't call a patch with solely bug fixes 'fighter adjustments'. I don't expect this huge, intricate list of character patches but I'd imagine if this is the last intended patch to do any character tweaking they'd be doing it now. Why wait? Especially when this sets the expectations no more will be done (Unless they royally break something and need to do an emergency patch or something).

Best I see it is Sora tweaks both to his bugs and maybe any attack changes (Damage and such) or if something else isn't working as intended. He'll likely be the 'meat' of the patch while the remainder of it will be like...5 characters getting minor buffs/side grades or tweaks. Imagining it won't be some meta shifting global roster shift by any stretch. Minor quality of life things to those who Sakurai feels still need it but that list feels small considering how tiny the last few patches have been compared to two years ago.

I mean, why couldn't it just be Sora fixes? Soon after release of DLC and a very low number. It fits. Expecting more because it's the last isn't a strong argument and while Sora might could use some consistency help, I doubt even that will happen.

 

[toonito]

Orionstats update

There was a problem fetching the tweet

There was a problem fetching the tweet

biggest rise from 11/17: +7
biggest drop from 11/17: -9

 

[A_Kae]

Japanese patch notes are up!

Auto-translated here

Real balance changes to a number of characters, not just bug fixes

Edit: English

 

[BlazGreen]

Looks like I got my wish and several mid tiers got buffed!

 

[Gunla]

I'll have a separate patch notes thread up in a bit - glad to be wrong on my predictions, however!

 

[NotLiquid]

A few Min Min nerfs in this patch; her overall shield damage has been reduced (a pretty fair change all things considered though I can't say a lot of players were getting shield breaks but this also messes with her shield safety) and her Dragon Laser seems to have had some active frames shaved off. NAir seems to be the most notable nerf, it's got two more frames of landing lag. That could mess with some combos and overall render her greatest button a less safe, this change really didn't feel that necessary.

That being said she received a huge buff by her missed tech get up getting fixed. She used to uniquely have more downed frames than any other characters on the cast, leading to nonsense like missed techs allowing her to get jablocked into stuff like Bowser FSmash. Even if this is just standardizing her, her survivability just got a little better. Wish the same could've been said about her ledge jump hurtbox but I'll take it.

 

[Idon]

Ike buffs praise the Lord.

I doubt he'll win any majors anytime soon but thank god up smash got buffed. Was legitimately sad at how slow and powerful it looked only to be so weak.

Grounded Side B isn't really a thing Ike players use a bunch nor is jab 3 gonna change much but hey, I'll happily take that.

 

[Arthur97]

Well, I'll be surprised. Disappointed they did nerf Pyra and Mythra, but hardly anything substantial. Though apparently people have been getting a lot out of Blazing End, though I'm not entirely sure how they got away with it at higher level. Even if it was hard to punish, it seems like a fairly limited move to me due to Pyra not being able to do much without her sword.

Real question is...why did they not just do this a month ago? Not like much has changed.

 

[SKX31]

Komorikiri (!!) made a Sora matchup chart, with ZSS being "It's over for him," Dedede being "Like eating a snack," and Lucario tier being even. Note that the last three tiers are "I'm not sure, but in my head, it seems losing/even/winning."

I think it makes a whole lot of sense, just given Sora's strengths and weaknesses.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense intuitively. Not only is Sora not all that fast (whether on the ground or start up) and not only can ZSS play the usual out-space the swordie game with little commitment, but his very floaty nature means ZSS can just up air for days vs. him and he'll have very few opportunities to break through. Flip Kick also does its usual thing to compound the MU further - lingering hitboxes does not help if you're kinda stuck hitting air while ZSS already is about to stun Sora.

Sora's best option might be to wait for overextensions, but that kinda sounds like playing vs. a superboss.

Orionstats update

This cluster is insanity in stat form:

Japanese patch notes are up!

Auto-translated here

Real balance changes to a number of characters, not just bug fixes

Inkling looks like the big winner:

Also, faster Finishing Touch? Huh, I'm really curious to see how much was shaved off. Clouds don't use it all that much unless they hard read / can set up into it.

And Wario got a jab buff. Huh. Looks like they again played that game of Operation Thinkaman was talking about.

I'm going to be really curious as to how significant the buffs were to DK, Link, ICies, Ike and Meta Knight. Bowser Jr and Plant got buffs when they needed them the most, but we'll have to see how significant they are.

 

[Idon]

Well, I'll be surprised. Disappointed they did nerf Pyra and Mythra, but hardly anything substantial. Though apparently people have been getting a lot out of Blazing End, though I'm not entirely sure how they got away with it at higher level. Even if it was hard to punish, it seems like a fairly limited move to me due to Pyra not being able to do much without her sword.

She can't use her sword, but every single defensive option an average character has is available. Shields, rolls, air dodges, dashes, ledges, platforms etc etc.

Consider the fact that not even the pinnacle of players always land "falling from helpless" punishes despite the fact they really can only move left or right while falling straight down. A character with all their defensive options meanwhile obviously can get away with much more.

 

[Thinkaman]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

And that's a wrap folks.

 

[Arthur97]

Another thing, the nerfs to Min Min seem a bit unnecessary at this point, don't they?

 

[Aaron1997]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Up-smash loops are gone

 

[Idon]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Yeah I change my mind, that jab buff is insane.
Ike joins the small club of people with killing jabs.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Looks like can now jab lock into Finishing Touch.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

It is not the best DI, but it is now an option.
Also saw that he could, under very specific circumstances, combo up tilt into Finishing Touch. However, this is both extremely character and DI dependent, so I doubt we will that into actual play.


I personally like the f-smash nerf.
It previously felt a bit on the stronger side despite being on the "faster but weaker" character, and for its speed and range.

Also, perhaps stagnation was finally come to a close? Seems to be the biggest winner of the patch by far.

Both and got buffs, but I personally doubt that it will change their tier positions too much. The previous patch fixed up tilt on hit. This patch seems to have fixed both jab 2 and down tilt on hit, which is nice to see (again, nothing too tier changing).

The plague of the 8 frame jab seems to have come to a close.


Btw, according to players, the up smash repeaters are still technically possible, but it is very hard to do and not worth going for anymore. Up smash in general is harder to use in combos.

FYI: yonni claims that he has discovered an infinite with the character that he has kept secret for a very long time, and is ready to reveal it since patches are over. However, I am ready for it to be ICs infinite levels of situational.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

I wonder if the Aegis nerfs will really mean anything. From what I heard their footstool combos are gone or sigfigiantly harder to do. Mythra F-Smash nerf means she will be even worse at killing and depsite being a neutral monster, she will have to rely on Pyra more to close stocks

Meanwhile Pyra's Blazing end my not be quite as spammable/abusable in neutral hopefully. So Pyras supposed weakness of having poor neutral may have more truth.


Also man..everytime ProtoBaham wins a Japan event with Min-Min. The Balnace team nerf her

 

[Aligo]

So how did they nerf blazing end? Also no Rob needs. Sad

 

[Nobie]

I want you all to be aware of something.

Ryu's strong f tilt, the one that breaks shields, used to be Frame 16 startup.

It's now FRAME 4.

WHAT.

Edit: Seems like a false alarm.

 

[A_Kae]

I want you all to be aware of something.

Ryu's strong f tilt, the one that breaks shields, used to be Frame 16 startup.

It's now FRAME 4.

WHAT.

It's fourteen.

Not four.

 

[Rizen]

Another thing, the nerfs to Min Min seem a bit unnecessary at this point, don't they?

I actually agree with this.

Well this patch was a lot better than the last one. At least Link finally got some love.

In other news I've finally decided to demote Young Link to a secondary and focus on Wolf. YL's probably a top 30 character and he slightly beats about half the cast with a good number of even MUs too but he loses to most relevant characters and has a really bad disadvantage against sword characters. I'm running into bad MU after bad MU. He's also extremely technical while having some of the worst kill power of the cast. If I want to kill off the side with YL optimally I could landing cancel Fair so only the first hit connects, Dtilt from about 15-110% depending on the floatiness of the character because Fair 1 pops opponents up too much for Dtilt to hit after that, jump and aerial upB, which sometimes opponents fall out of for no reason. Or with Wolf I could just Bair them and kill earlier. Wolf's just an easier, better character and I'll improve my fundamentals more with him than by practicing a lot of combo trees with YL.

 

[Nobie]

It's fourteen.

Not four.

Are you sure? I did a frame-by-frame advance in training mode, and I'm pretty sure I didn't press it too hard or anything. Is there something I'm doing wrong?

 

[Swamp Sensei]

It's fourteen.

Not four.

Are you sure? I did a frame-by-frame advance in training mode, and I'm pretty sure I didn't press it too hard or anything. Is there something I'm doing wrong?

I'd like some clarification on this too.

Cause a frame 4 shield breaker is nutty.

 

[A_Kae]

Are you sure? I did a frame-by-frame advance in training mode, and I'm pretty sure I didn't press it too hard or anything. Is there something I'm doing wrong?

I just double-checked to be totally sure, but yes.

Are you doing the close light ftilt instead? That's 4f but it's the overhead punch, the strong hold one you want

 

[Aligo]

No rat nerfs today.

 

[Nobie]

I just double-checked to be totally sure, but yes.

Are you doing the close light ftilt instead? That's 4f but it's the overhead punch, the strong hold one you want

I was definitely doing the overhead punch. I basically had it frozen in training mode in frame advance mode, held tilt c-stick, and moved it up frame by frame.

Is it possible c-stick and training mode interact oddly? Like, is there a small buffer window that allows the game to understand whether something is a light or hard press that gets bypassed?

 

[A_Kae]

I was definitely doing the overhead punch. I basically had it frozen in training mode in frame advance mode, held tilt c-stick, and moved it up frame by frame.

Is it possible c-stick and training mode interact oddly? Like, is there a small buffer window that allows the game to understand whether something is a light or hard press that gets bypassed?

I'm doing the same thing I think and getting 14f, so idk. Someone's doing something wrong here?

Training mode set to the frame advance mode, hold tilt stick forward the whole time, and tap l and count, right?

You're totally sure you're looking at the right move? How much damage does it do? Maybe that would help see. should be 3.6+7.2=10.8

 

[Idon]

Recent twitter posts from random users does have a consensus that the shield-breaker ftilt is 14 frames.

 

[Nobie]

I'm doing the same thing I think and getting 14f, so idk. Someone's doing something wrong here?

Training mode set to the frame advance mode, hold tilt stick forward the whole time, and tap l and count, right?

You're totally sure you're looking at the right move? How much damage does it do? Maybe that would help see. should be 3.6+7.2=10.8

Aha, I see what the problem is! I was letting go too early. So the startup looked like the collarbone breaker, but then it got canceled into a light f tilt instead. Because it looked the same at the very beginning, I got fooled.

 

[Luig]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Yeah I change my mind, that jab buff is insane.
Ike joins the small club of people with killing jabs.

I'm glad, i loved his jab in brawl and I was sad they nerfed its power so much.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

I wonder if the Aegis nerfs will really mean anything. From what I heard their footstool combos are gone or sigfigiantly harder to do. Mythra F-Smash nerf means she will be even worse at killing and depsite being a neutral monster, she will have to rely on Pyra more to close stocks

Meanwhile Pyra's Blazing end my not be quite as spammable/abusable in neutral hopefully. So Pyras supposed weakness of having poor neutral may have more truth.


Also man..everytime ProtoBaham wins a Japan event with Min-Min. The Balnace team nerf her

Blazing end went from 40 to 42 so, if it just eliminated footstool combos then that really doesn’t hurt overall viability. Pyra doesn’t hurt for the ability to close stocks nor does she lack the ability to add damage (thanks to Mythra). I believe Mythra’s Fsmash went from no DI Mario at ledge at 81 to 86. So factor in DI probably a fair bit weaker but again Mythra doesn’t need to kill when Pyra exists.

Honestly the Aegis nerfs should have zero impact on her viability. The only way you’d actually nerf the Aegis is by hitting something that the other doesn’t have. So nerfed Pyra’s knockback or slowed down Mythra. That or make switching between the two much more of a commitment than it is now because it’s frankly not one.

Min Min nerfs however seem to be have viability impacts. Dunno how much was shaved off dragon arms active frames but even if it’s just one frame, timing it becomes stricter, more chance to miss means more chances for the opponent. Her ARMS not doing as much shield damage matters because shield is a more viable option to close distance against her. She doesn’t get tons of shield breaks but she sure as hell can threaten it or threaten to poke after hitting a shield before and if the shield damage nerfs means you get just one more shield in to close space then that’s pretty impactful and will matter in all of her matchups. Her nair nerfs also hurts her close range game, don’t play Min Min so I don’t know how impactful that will be but her only “normal” aerial getting hit can’t be good.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

So how did they nerf blazing end? Also no Rob needs. Sad

From twitter posts it seems to have 4 additional frames of endlag 52>56.

 

[Gunla]

Patch Notes thread.

Will be putting in data as time goes. Would've had this up earlier but definitely got a bit caught off guard/didn't realize this was dropping tonight at all.

 

[Aaron1997]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[zumaddy]

No rat nerfs the entire game just depresses me. My two secondaries who needed the most help (Robin and Ridley) got one buff to a move that's already decent rather than something different helping them out.

 

[NotLiquid]

Min Min's shield safety is probably the most notable nerf for a top tier yet and a genuinely tough one to swallow. For a character that was as versatile, and frankly I'd argue really well considered for her archetype, this genuinely limits her playstyle more because her disadvantage was already pretty poor. Now to add onto that what little landing options she had in disadvantage are now close to non-existent, and her conditioning is less effective and can be countered by shielding.

Probably one of the biggest misfires of Ultimate's patch history yet to be honest, and knowing this won't be addressed anymore has kind of left me a bit crestfallen. It's been incredibly rare for nerfs to kill character viability as we've seen with previous characters like Palu and Wario, but this one was particularly nefarious in ways that the others weren't, and the community will be left playing on the world's smallest violin since she was already a very disliked character mechanically because no one was willing enough to dig deep into why the character works the way she does and why what made her so good was down to such specific requirements.

It is what it is I suppose, we'll just have to see what players make of it and how they fare, but this reinforces that they want the character to live and die on whether they can play campy, and that's a pretty big let down. I'm less opinionated on how this affects her at a top competitive level, I'm just kinda taken aback that she feels genuinely less fun to play as a result of the change.

 

[Aligo]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

There was a problem fetching the tweet

I guess they might have to release an extra patch after all. That is honestly absurd.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Oh that’s what “reduced the power against shields” meant I thought it meant shield damage not shield safety disregard my post on min min then this is worst for her than what I posted

 

[Thinkaman]

I guess they might have to release an extra patch after all. That is honestly absurd.

Yeah I can't believe they would remove DI from the game in the last patch, crazy.


ICs u-tilt to up-b is cute, though uair was already a thing.

MM dash attack being better is quite nice, haven't seen anyone talking about it.

Mewtwo f-throw does 18% 1v1, wild.

Robin rapid jab doing even MORE damage is easy to underestimate because it increases the safety of the move by proxy of just outright whittling down shields to the point of poking more often.

Curious about the impact of the Plant changes.