Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Nobie]

Thinking about Byleth again, I think the Mainstage 2021 grand finals really showed just how much better Pyra/Mythra are than Byleth. But they also that showed how Byleth has the tools to make winning a real possibility, ones that a skilled player (or the best if the world) can capitalize on.

MKLeo's Byleth looked helpless at times, and then would just find these moments and turn it all around. It's like the character also has AN answer, even if it's not the best answer.

 

[SKX31]

People are dramatically underestimating Pyra.

You've all seen d-air -> up-smash. It starts from a big move that covers many options and is pretty safe, and kills early. The risk-reward on it is amazing. But this (very good) kill confirm isn't the focus of this post. The real focus of this post is Pyra's other great moves. jab, f-tilt, up-tilt, up-air, n-air, f-air... Pyra oozes quality moves for ledge and neutral. Comparisons are drawn to Ike or to Ganon, but while Ike and Ganon have some good moves, Pyra both outnumbers them in options and has way better options. Ganon dash attack and up-air are some of the best moves in the game, but Pyra n-air alone is just in a different league. A big disjointed hitbox starting behind Pyra, then covering all sides of her, that not only can reverse disadvantage but can kill you for trying to bait an airdodge. And while you might think that Pyra d-air having 17 frames of startup balances it, this happens by frame 10:

A crazy hurtbox shift that has allowed sparg0 to fastfall land with a kill confirm in disadvantage in bracket several times. And I don't even think this move is comparable to f-tilt.

I really like the analysis. Especially since the hurtbox shifting is not talked about much at all. That said, I do think it's counterbalanced in part because Pyra and Mythra can struggle to kill if they can't land those early kill confirms fully. If those moves don't hit - or hell, hit but just barely not kill - they instead might come increasingly to rely on stray hits doing that work. Worst case the opponent's Rage helps them KO Aegis. Even Sparg0 got slowed down by that a number of times during his recent runs - for example from the recent Grand Finals Reset set vs. Leo:

* Game 1, first stock (15:37): Sparg0 hits Leo with an U-Air at 110 %. While Leo gets to 120 and close to the blastzone, he realizes that Sparg0's looking to fish for aerials. He lands relatively safely (avoiding another U-Air in the process), spotdodges a Sparg0 grab, then jabs Sparg0 offstage. Sparg0 throws Blazing End to cover his return to ledge, but Leo reads the subsuquent neutral get up and catches Sparg0 completely off guard with a B-Air. That B-Air sends him far enough that Sparg0 can't recover even as he tried to switch to Mythra for the air speed.

* Game 3, second stock (24:18): Sparg0 hits Leo with a B-Throw -> Blazing End, putting Leo at 145 %. However, Leo reads that Sparg0's going for the stray F-Air, dodges that and returns to ledge while Sparg0 is forced to Prominence Revolt. Leo neutral get ups and Up Smashes Pyra, killing Sparg0 instead.

* Game 4, first stock (26:30): Sparg0 hits a D-Air but barely misses on the U-Air confirm, leaving Leo at 125 % (I have to assume the confirm stops being true around here?). Leo avoids a subsuquent U-Air and shields a Dash Attack from Sparg0, then hits Spargo with a N-Air -> Platform fall F-Air, then spaces around Sparg0's F-Air and hits Sparg0 with his own. Leo then manages to read Sparg0 going in with a N-Air, dashes back and hits Sparg0 with an F-Tilt. While Sparg0 manages to evade Leo's Side B edgeguard with a well timed Swap -> Prominence Revolt and finally seals the stock with a Pyra F-Tilt, my point still stands since this took ca. 20 seconds, Sparg0 had taken 40 % and come very close to being killed himself.

* Game 5, second stock (31:28): Sparg0 hits Leo with a D-Air -> Prominence Revolt, leaving Leo at 135 %. The only reason Leo survived this one is because he was sent across the stage, but that happens. Leo recovers and calls out Sparg0's double swap with a Side B, After a Sparg0 B-Throw that puts Leo at the edge, Leo rolls and Sparg0 barely misses the F-Tilt. Sparg0 reacts quickly and shields Leo's N-Air, but then when Sparg0 goes in for the Dash Attack... Leo short hop B-Airs Sparg0 and forces Sparg0 into a cagey edge situation. Sparg0 escapes but is punished by another N-Air. Sparg0 re-engages and hits Leo with a (sourspot?) N-Air, leading Leo to the ledge and allowing Sparg0 to finally close it out with a jab kill. Like the example above, this took Sparg0 half a minute to find the kill and he got caught himself in a couple of difficult scenarios.

The stray hits argument ties into my personal observation that Aegis are more linear than say Joker, Wolf or Palu. Yes those swings are effective, but they don't really have as strong of a Plan B as those three even if they can swap. In the end, they're gonna swing whether Mythra or Pyra (with the only real zoning play is Blazing End, but while that's strong that's also more committal than most projectiles). I kinda think that combined with them sometimes struggling to truly seal a stock is worth noting.

Edit: Yes, this is a lot on Leo out-reading Sparg0 in these specific situations; but while those moves are great, they're also Aegis' main tools once the confirms stop being true. Which means that the Aegis themselves might become more predictable as time goes on and people get more used to them, but we'll have to see if the counterplay winds up based partly around that.

 

[Nobie]

Stuff just got real:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[The_Bookworm]

Following up with that is ESAM's new tier list. Don't have time to talk about it myself, but I will leave it here for people to discuss.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Following up with that is ESAM's new tier list. Don't have time to talk about it myself, but I will leave it here for people to discuss.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

There was a problem fetching the tweet

ESAM actually made a tier list with pretty standard opinions and didn't underrate Cloud or Sonic?
Holy ****.

 

[Rizen]

I agree with ESAM's placements for the most part but not how he labeled them. Much of what he considers viable realistically need a secondary to get top 8 in a major. YL definitely has too many bad MUs in good characters to win more than a regional.

Lately my view of has grown worse. Although he can beat any character, he really struggles with swords and loses several top tier MUs just because the opponent is a better character with better rewards for doing what they do. Wolf is a good example of this. I was playing a Wolf in bracket and he lived past 160% when hit by things like D/Fair and killed me around 80% with his own Bair. YL probably has a slight advantage against half the cast but can also lose to anyone. His hitboxes are really bad on normal attacks. The thing about projectiles is any good player can get around them. You have to engage the opponent; the stage selection makes sure of that. He's still a good top 30 character but there are better.

 

[NairWizard]

I really like the analysis. Especially since the hurtbox shifting is not talked about much at all. That said, I do think it's counterbalanced in part because Pyra and Mythra can struggle to kill if they can't land those early kill confirms fully. If those moves don't hit - or hell, hit but just barely not kill - they instead might come increasingly to rely on stray hits doing that work. Worst case the opponent's Rage helps them KO Aegis. Even Sparg0 got slowed down by that a number of times during his recent runs - for example from the recent Grand Finals Reset set vs. Leo:

* Game 1, first stock (15:37): Sparg0 hits Leo with an U-Air at 110 %. While Leo gets to 120 and close to the blastzone, he realizes that Sparg0's looking to fish for aerials. He lands relatively safely (avoiding another U-Air in the process), spotdodges a Sparg0 grab, then jabs Sparg0 offstage. Sparg0 throws Blazing End to cover his return to ledge, but Leo reads the subsuquent neutral get up and catches Sparg0 completely off guard with a B-Air. That B-Air sends him far enough that Sparg0 can't recover even as he tried to switch to Mythra for the air speed.

* Game 3, second stock (24:18): Sparg0 hits Leo with a B-Throw -> Blazing End, putting Leo at 145 %. However, Leo reads that Sparg0's going for the stray F-Air, dodges that and returns to ledge while Sparg0 is forced to Prominence Revolt. Leo neutral get ups and Up Smashes Pyra, killing Sparg0 instead.

* Game 4, first stock (26:30): Sparg0 hits a D-Air but barely misses on the U-Air confirm, leaving Leo at 125 % (I have to assume the confirm stops being true around here?). Leo avoids a subsuquent U-Air and shields a Dash Attack from Sparg0, then hits Spargo with a N-Air -> Platform fall F-Air, then spaces around Sparg0's F-Air and hits Sparg0 with his own. Leo then manages to read Sparg0 going in with a N-Air, dashes back and hits Sparg0 with an F-Tilt. While Sparg0 manages to evade Leo's Side B edgeguard with a well timed Swap -> Prominence Revolt and finally seals the stock with a Pyra F-Tilt, my point still stands since this took ca. 20 seconds, Sparg0 had taken 40 % and come very close to being killed himself.

* Game 5, second stock (31:28): Sparg0 hits Leo with a D-Air -> Prominence Revolt, leaving Leo at 135 %. The only reason Leo survived this one is because he was sent across the stage, but that happens. Leo recovers and calls out Sparg0's double swap with a Side B, After a Sparg0 B-Throw that puts Leo at the edge, Leo rolls and Sparg0 barely misses the F-Tilt. Sparg0 reacts quickly and shields Leo's N-Air, but then when Sparg0 goes in for the Dash Attack... Leo short hop B-Airs Sparg0 and forces Sparg0 into a cagey edge situation. Sparg0 escapes but is punished by another N-Air. Sparg0 re-engages and hits Leo with a (sourspot?) N-Air, leading Leo to the ledge and allowing Sparg0 to finally close it out with a jab kill. Like the example above, this took Sparg0 half a minute to find the kill and he got caught himself in a couple of difficult scenarios.

The stray hits argument ties into my personal observation that Aegis are more linear than say Joker, Wolf or Palu. Yes those swings are effective, but they don't really have as strong of a Plan B as those three even if they can swap. In the end, they're gonna swing whether Mythra or Pyra (with the only real zoning play is Blazing End, but while that's strong that's also more committal than most projectiles). I kinda think that combined with them sometimes struggling to truly seal a stock is worth noting.

Edit: Yes, this is a lot on Leo out-reading Sparg0 in these specific situations; but while those moves are great, they're also Aegis' main tools once the confirms stop being true. Which means that the Aegis themselves might become more predictable as time goes on and people get more used to them, but we'll have to see if the counterplay winds up based partly around that.

Nice observation, and I agree to some extent, but you have to consider also that this was played against Byleth. Aegis has the advantage against Byleth, but the one area in which they don't do that well is actually taking the stock, which is what allows Byleth to have a chance at all.
Byleth's strong recovery and ledge mixups makes it slightly harder than normal for Pyra to play her ledge game against him. Despite that, the Pyra looked quite strong in Grand Finals, but it's worth noting the impact of the matchup here.

Another factor here is PS2. Pyra/Mythra like triplats, FD, and Town and City way more in terms of killing. FD lets you read more neutral airdodges into d-air confirms. Town and City extends Pyra f-air closer to blastzone in some key situations. And triplats make Mythra up-air lethal.

Now if you look at Elegant vs. sparg0, with Luigi having both a much more exploitable ledge game and recovery, and the games being played off PS2, you'll see a mix of 0 to deaths and d-air spikes off of difficult ledge situations.

 

[Kokiden]

If the data I dug up is currect, Smash 4 Cloud's Nair was -2 on shield and came out on Frame 5 and looked like this.

Mythra's is -10 and comes out on frame 8, and it looks like this.

Not quite the same.

By my comparison, I meant that her nair is just overpowering and annoying to deal with, whereas Cloud's nair is basically neutered to be pathetic for lack of a better word. It doesn't even hit the other person even if you short hop.. it just misses entirely, which is awkward.

As for Mythra, she's fast, she can just spam that **** with zero consequence and then follow up with even more harder to get out of moves, especially online.

That was my point all along.

People talked about Cloud's nair being a problem but don't think the same for Mythra.

 

[Idon]

By my comparison, I meant that her nair is just overpowering and annoying to deal with, whereas Cloud's nair is basically neutered to be pathetic for lack of a better word. It doesn't even hit the other person even if you short hop.. it just misses entirely, which is awkward.

As for Mythra, she's fast, she can just spam that **** with zero consequence and then follow up with even more harder to get out of moves, especially online.

That was my point all along.

People talked about Cloud's nair being a problem but don't think the same for Mythra.

If you want to talk about overpowering nairs, you've got quite a list to go through considering nairs in this game generally tend to be one of, if not the best moves, for most characters in this cast.
In that regard, a nair that combos into imagination isn't that noteworthy when people had been dealing with Palutena and Pikachu nair for 2 and a bit years.

When people complain about Mythra, it's generally about her entire kit as a whole, nair included, besides. Very little people are ignoring how good she is lol.

 

[PK Gaming]

Following up with that is ESAM's new tier list. Don't have time to talk about it myself, but I will leave it here for people to discuss.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Total crowd pleaser tier list which makes it overly safe and kinda innacurate imo. Pikachu at #1 is obvious nonsense, Joker top 3 is increasingly untenable and he's only that well regarded because "Leo dominated with him in the past"

Byleth being below tons of characters he's blatantly better than. I think Peach is top tier on paper but her recent results have been not great in the current meta, so it's hard to justify her current top 10 placement.

Luigi should at least be in super viable, come on now

Will say he's right on the money with Aegis and Marth. Marth is straight up awful in this game.

 

[ZephyrZ]

By my comparison, I meant that her nair is just overpowering and annoying to deal with, whereas Cloud's nair is basically neutered to be pathetic for lack of a better word. It doesn't even hit the other person even if you short hop.. it just misses entirely, which is awkward.

As for Mythra, she's fast, she can just spam that **** with zero consequence and then follow up with even more harder to get out of moves, especially online.

That was my point all along.

And it's such an arbitrary comparison.

Mythra's Nair is good but isn't comparable to the absolute monster that was Smash 4 Cloud's Nair. But even Ultimate Cloud's Nair has its advantages - it's still frame 5 and it's still safe on shield (although its -5 now rather then -2).

You comparisons are pretty poor faith. You're taking two things with only a couple things in common and then complaining that one isn't as broken as the other. Limit isn't the same as just a worse Go, and Cloud Nair isn't just the same thing as a worse Mythra Nair.

It's also pretty silly to complain that a character who's already perfectly viable isn't as good as a character who's a contender for the number #1 best character in the game. It's pretty clear your own biases are skewing your judgement and you just want buffs for characters you like (Sephiroth and Cloud).

 

[Kokiden]

If you want to talk about overpowering nairs, you've got quite a list to go through considering nairs in this game generally tend to be one of, if not the best moves, for most characters in this cast.
In that regard, a nair that combos into imagination isn't that noteworthy when people had been dealing with Palutena and Pikachu nair for 2 and a bit years.

When people complain about Mythra, it's generally about her entire kit as a whole, nair included, besides. Very little people are ignoring how good she is lol.

I guess it's just annoying when I use nair for Cloud and Sephiroth, they don't connect, even when they're close to the other fighter.

Sephiroth's nair is just... I dunno. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. He's either got long range, or that nair that hits only when they're really close to him. He's got no mid moves. Just really drags him down if I'm thinking about his entire kit.

And it's such an arbitrary comparison.

Mythra's Nair is good but isn't comparable to the absolute monster that was Smash 4 Cloud's Nair. But even Ultimate Cloud's Nair has its advantages - it's still frame 5 and it's still safe on shield (although its -5 now rather then -2).

You comparisons are pretty poor faith. You're taking two things with only a couple things in common and then complaining that one isn't as broken as the other. Limit isn't the same as just a worse Go, and Cloud Nair isn't just the same thing as a worse Mythra Nair.

It's also pretty silly to complain that a character who's already perfectly viable isn't as good as a character who's a contender for the number #1 best character in the game. It's pretty clear your own biases are skewing your judgement and you just want buffs for characters you like (Sephiroth and Cloud).

What I'm trying to say is Cloud's nair just doesn't even work. I went into training mode, stood next to the other fighter, did nair, and it doesn't connect.

I'm saying they had no issues giving Mythra a good nair, but gutted Cloud's one.

My complaints about Cloud is his nair, and his limit lasting only a couple seconds. I'm not asking for anything major, but I guess that's the "wrong" opinion to have.

I feel that everyone here just takes a dump on my opinion whenever I voice things here. It's not the first time, so I guess it's to be expected.

I also don't see what's wrong with asking for buffs for characters I like. I play as them. Of course I know what it feels like to play as them. Am I only suppose to say positive things about them then?

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Sephiroth's nair is just... I dunno. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. He's either got long range, or that nair that hits only when they're really close to him. He's got no mid moves. Just really drags him down if I'm thinking about his entire kit.

That's because Sephiroth's nair is only active for 2 frames so I can understand why that feels inconsistent. As for not having mid moves, that's not true, his sword swings have the sweetspot in the middle while the stabs have them at the tip, giving Sephiroth options for both mid range and far range

I feel that everyone here just takes a dump on my opinion whenever I voice things here. It's not the first time, so I guess it's to be expected.

People don't 'dump' on your opinions, they correct you on things you say that are flat out wrong which you use to back your opinion, it's like saying 1+1=3 is just an opinion and being upset when people say it's actually 2

 

[ZephyrZ]

I guess it's just annoying when I use nair for Cloud and Sephiroth, they don't connect, even when they're close to the other fighter.

Sephiroth's nair is just... I dunno. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. He's either got long range, or that nair that hits only when they're really close to him. He's got no mid moves. Just really drags him down if I'm thinking about his entire kit.



What I'm trying to say is Cloud's nair just doesn't even work. I went into training mode, stood next to the other fighter, did nair, and it doesn't connect.

The hitboxes are the same every time you use them. It's not random. If it "doesn't work" it's because you wiffed as a player.

Cloud's current hitbox is slightly misleading - I'll give you that - but it's nothing you can't learn. Sparg0 uses Cloud Nair a fair amount as a faster alternative to his much bigger but much more sluggish Bair and Fair. Those moves have niches in Sephiroth's and Cloud's kits and it's up to you to learn to use them.

And it's not like Cloud doesn't even have a spammable neutral move - his Bair is still crazy good in advantage and neutral.

I'm saying they had no issues giving Mythra a good nair, but gutted Cloud's one.

The main thing those moves have in common is that they're both mapped to the Nair button.

My complaints about Cloud is his nair, and his limit lasting only a couple seconds. I'm not asking for anything major, but I guess that's the "wrong" opinion to have.

You wanted limit to be permanent. That's pretty major.

I feel that everyone here just takes a dump on my opinion whenever I voice things here. It's not the first time, so I guess it's to be expected.

I also don't see what's wrong with asking for buffs for characters I like. I play as them. Of course I know what it feels like to play as them. Am I only suppose to say positive things about them then?

I guess you're free to want buffs. We all have things we'd like to see buffed or "fixed" in our own characters. I can't pretend I don't get jelous of tether grabs after wiffing an Ivy grab or get a little bothered that there's almost no reason to use Zard F-Smash.

But it's a bit silly to come in calling the game's balance bad because of it and making unfair comparisons to try and prove it. You can't expect us to not challenge those opinions. Especially whenat least one of said characters is still really dang good.

 

[Kokiden]

That's because Sephiroth's nair is only active for 2 frames so I can understand why that feels inconsistent. As for not having mid moves, that's not true, his sword swings have the sweetspot in the middle while the stabs have them at the tip, giving Sephiroth options for both mid range and far range
People don't 'dump' on your opinions, they correct you on things you say that are flat out wrong which you use to back your opinion, it's like saying 1+1=3 is just an opinion and being upset when people say it's actually 2

Active for 2 frames... well that explains things.

I guess his sword striking in a straight line doesn't help, as opposed to say a swipe that takes up 180 degrees.

When they're too close, or even just a bit under or below, he doesn't hit anything.

I can read the room. I can feel it when multiple people are just reading my posts with disapproval. I wasn't aware that opinions can be wrong on something like how a game feels when a person is playing it.

The hitboxes are the same every time you use them. It's not random. If it "doesn't work" it's because you wiffed as a player.

Cloud's current hitbox is slightly misleading - I'll give you that - but it's nothing you can't learn. Sparg0 uses Cloud Nair a fair amount as a faster alternative to his much bigger but much more sluggish Bair and Fair. Those moves have niches in Sephiroth's and Cloud's kits and it's up to you to learn to use them.

And it's not like Cloud doesn't even have a spammable neutral move - his Bair is still crazy good in advantage and neutral.
The main thing those moves have in common is that they're both mapped to the Nair button.

You wanted limit to be permanent. That's pretty major.

I guess you're free to want buffs. We all have things we'd like to see buffed or "fixed" in our own characters. I can't pretend I don't get jelous of tether grabs after wiffing an Ivy grab or get a little bothered that there's almost no reason to use Zard F-Smash.

But it's a bit silly to come in calling the game's balance bad because of it and making unfair comparisons to try and prove it. You can't expect us to not challenge those opinions. Especially whenat least one of said characters is still really dang good.

I can only speak about my experience with the characters I play. I don't use more than a handful, but with them, it feels weird at times. Online doesn't help.

I played Bayonetta a lot before I even used Cloud and Sephiroth, and from there, my feelings towards balancing was already soured. It could be online, it could not be. All I know is, my feeling when using them just doesn't feel intuitively responsive as I want it to be.

With the limit, give and take. I'm not saying give him absolutely everything. HIs limit itself doesn't always kill even if I land a hit, same with his up smash, which is kind of like Bayonetta's up air where it just sends them at this weird angle.. One way could be to let him keep it up, maybe even make it even more weaker?

Anyway, it's not like the balance team will be listening to me or anything.

Most likely, they're not going to do anything at all. I highly doubt they'd be doing anything significant, so everything will just stay as is.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

VCA seeding - Player who wins it gets into Glitch: Infinite.
https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/qussop

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

I know I shouldn't be doubleposting but this is big news.
The PGRU is coming back for next year.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[SKX31]

Nice observation, and I agree to some extent, but you have to consider also that this was played against Byleth. Aegis has the advantage against Byleth, but the one area in which they don't do that well is actually taking the stock, which is what allows Byleth to have a chance at all.
Byleth's strong recovery and ledge mixups makes it slightly harder than normal for Pyra to play her ledge game against him. Despite that, the Pyra looked quite strong in Grand Finals, but it's worth noting the impact of the matchup here.

Another factor here is PS2. Pyra/Mythra like triplats, FD, and Town and City way more in terms of killing. FD lets you read more neutral airdodges into d-air confirms. Town and City extends Pyra f-air closer to blastzone in some key situations. And triplats make Mythra up-air lethal.

Now if you look at Elegant vs. sparg0, with Luigi having both a much more exploitable ledge game and recovery, and the games being played off PS2, you'll see a mix of 0 to deaths and d-air spikes off of difficult ledge situations.

Which is honestly fair. I do kinda feel though that Byleth is semi-representative of quite a few swordies who have disjointed aerials and at least decent recovery to avoid the ledgetrapping (Link, Lucina). It might be somewhat applicable on stages such as FD and triplats since both Aegis girls depend a lot on N-Air to escape disadvantage (and Foresight in Mythra's case) and characters that can challenge their range or prolong juggle / 50 50 situations might do a lot to in turn counteract the kill advantage that Aegis get on those stages. Link is not excellent at juggling, granted, but Lucina does a pretty solid job at it.

It might also be applicable to some degree vs. Joker, Wolf and Palu - whom generally do not struggle at juggling or platform trapping themselves, are disjointed and two of them can survive for a decent amount of time. Just as Mythra can Foresight Joker's U-Air pretty easily Joker can Rebel's Guard Mythra / Pyra without much issue for instance. Now I'd still give Pyra / Mythra the edge over Wolf in these situations, but I'm not entirely convinced that it's going to affect Joker or Palu that much since likewise Joker can platform trap with U Airs before launching a kill confirm U-Smash while Palu does not lack similar kill confirms either what with drag down U-Air. If those three plus swordies like Lucina / Link survive the kill confirm window they could take advantage of Rage rather well too (even as I admit that's a tall order, especially on platforms or low blastzones).

As for non-swordies I'm not as sure - and that's even considering Luigi's frame 1 invincibility on Down B. The counterplay would have to shift towards preventing the kill confirms and exploit the hurtbox shifting where possible. Easier said than done of course - as you pointed out with Sparg0's set vs. Elegant Sparg0 found multiple such opportunities, implying that it's going to happen at least once a match whenever Sparg0 or Cosmos are up to bat. In those situations it's going to be a major hill to climb for the opponent, since the swinging might be predictable... but the opponents are not going to easily challenge Mythra's low endlag or Pyra's decent pushback so why not keep swingin'.

Also, Barnard's Loop is releasing player performance with each character:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

The characters he's gone over alongside are:

: Very even spread, Zomba's the leading point-getter with 50 and just under 10 %.
: French main Oryon leads in terms of getting points; Jakal, CDK and Larry Lurr contribute quite a lot too.
: MuteAce and LingLing combine for >50 % of Peach's points, with MuteAce getting 1/3 of the total.
: JP mains Sigma, Manzoku and Lv.1 are responsible for 90 % of his points.
: While Elegant has 1/3 of Luigi's points, it's relatively evenly spread elsewhere. Also, an appearance by a middle eastern player (Crono, Qatar), one of the few representatives of a minor region to make it as a top 10 contributor to a character so far.
: Tk3 and Mr. R lead the way, with Gidy and Lancelot also contributing ca. 10 % each.
: Eim and Kameme have been having the most success, with Mr. R and Void also getting points.
: Only a top 5, Raito has gathered 21 points and a bit over 33% of the total. OwlBBs and Wolfen follow with close to 10 each.
: Unsurprisingly MKLeo has garnered 2/3rds of their points, with Ly and Rizeasu having some success over in Japan.

Barnard will make them public next week.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

So far in Tam Invitational

Sparg0 3-2 Waymas (He used mostly Aegis but when it wasn't working he switched to Cloud and was beating Waymas badly)
Sparg0 3-0 Javi
Sparg0 3-0 Rox
Javi 3-1 Rox
Javi 3-0 Waymas
Rox 3-0 Waymas

Chag 3-1 Skyjay
Chag 3-0 Bernie
Chag 3-0 CK
Skyjay 3-0 Bernie
Skyjay 3-2 CK
CK 3-1 Bernie

 

[SKX31]

WTF Tropped - a Spanish , ranked 18th there - just beat Glutonny 2-0.

The VCA is going to be incredibly volatile now that the 1st seeded player is in losers before Top 64.

Edit: Turning this into a upset post until a reddit one is made:

Upsets:

WB:

1st seed Gluttony - Tropped 0 - 2
5th seed Tarik - Cebonvieuxporing 0 - 2
6th seed AndresFN - Midoriss 1 - 2
16th seed Streakz - Adrian 1 - 2
18th seed Lancelot - 47th seed Purple-H 1 - 2
19th seed MoDzai - Spyder 1 - 2
21st seed Tomberry - Polinomis 0 - 2
24th seed Yetey - 43rd seed RyuKai 0 - 2
27th seed Longo - Micky 1 - 2
34th seed SBF - K1NG_K00P4 0 - 2
46th seed Lucky / - Dagobert 0 - 2
55th seed J - Kichiro 1 - 2
60th seed NFL - Cebonvieuxporing 1 - 2
62nd seed Karpador64 - NaetorU 0 - 2
64th seed Sansi - Tropped 0 - 2

LB:

Streakz - Dras (Streakz out at 129th)
Tomberry - 53rd seed Raaban 0 - 2 (Tomberry out at 65th)
36th seed +HOPE+ - Faifre 1 - 2 (+HOPE+ out at 65th)
Karpador64 - Mad Ice King 0 - 2 (Karpador64 out at 129th)

Spoiler: Notable:

2nd seed Sisqui - Kass 2 - 1
SBF - Kass 2 - 1 (LB) (Kass out at 65th)
9th seed Ogey - AleX 2 - 1
11th seed Oryon - 54th seed GANDIX 2 - 1
17th seed PeW - SnoR 2 - 1
MoDzai - Polvitos 2 - 1 (LB) Polvitos out at 129th)
23rd seed Jaka - VyQ 2 - 1
Yetey - WTFox 2 - 1
26th seed Ramses - Kendo 2 - 1
44th seed cyve - Polinomis 2 - 1
45th seed Tsuba - Adom (LB) (Adom out at 65th)
Lucky / - Espeo 2 - 1
Lucky / - RamonWars 2 - 1 (LB) (RamonWars out at 129th)
Lucky / - matthiasbayern 2 - 1 (LB) (matthiasbayern out at 97th)
GANDIX - Willz 2 - 1
57th seed FriskyCissin - Zeno 2 - 1 (LB) (Zeno out at 65th)

DQ:

Mr. R
Homika
Raphy
Grove
Marcbri
Yetey (LB vs. Triannos, 65th)

 

[blackghost]

How is GO! a fair comparison to perma Limit? GO! requires you to be at fairly critical damage levels so you have to survive to get there and survive to keep it while you can just charge Limit and potentially get it without taking any damage. Easier come, easier go.

not to mention go give GO just gives terry two new damage/kill firms and a scary anti air. thats it.

ESAM viability list. need time to revist.

lol where's the bayo viability tier: AKA "how many ROBs are in Bracket?"

 

[SKX31]

So VGA top 64:

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/qygju9
Hooooly moly:

• 3 out of the Top 8 seeds got sent to losers, with MR. R DQing.
• About a quarter of the Top 64 seeds got upset in pools. Tropped and Cebonvieuxporing beat 2 each - including a Top 8 seed each.
• As a result of this metaphorical bloodbath (as well as seeded players beating each other in LB, such as AndresFN beating Longo), about half of those in the Top 64 are un-seeded.

Nations represented (with WB / LB slots):

: 22 players (12 WB / 10 LB)
: 8 players (3 WB / 5 LB)
: 7 players (3 WB / 4 LB)
: 6 players (3 WB / 3 LB)
: 5 players (3 WB / 2 LB)
: 4 players (1 WB / 3 LB)
: 2 players (2 WB / 0 LB)
: 2 players (1 WB / 1 LB)
: 2 players (1 WB / 1 LB)
: 1 player (0 WB / 1 LB)
: 1 player (1 WB / 0 LB) (Edit: Barnard's Loop noted that Spyder's the first Polish player to get this far at a European major)
: 1 player (0 WB / 1 LB)
: 1 player (1 WB / 0 LB)
: 1 player (0 WB / 1 LB)
: 1 player (1 WB / 0 LB)


Also, Barnard's Loop has continued to release character-player data:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Other characters he went over today:

: Unsurprisingly Gluto's gotten over 1/3 of his points, but it's surprisingly spread beyond him. Huto and Zackray are considered 2nd and 3rd, while fellow VGA attendee SBF and Aussie main DD have contributed quite a few points each.
: KEN leads the way, but TonyZTank has quickly established himself as in second place ahead of Peli, Wrath and Sonix.
: KirbyKid has contributed over 50 % of Rool's points, with the 6 other Rool mains listed chipping in. A representative of another minor region
makes an appearance here: Chinese main EVERYBODY POOPS (yes really that's his screenname).
: Tilde's the main point getter for him, with MASA and Filip contributing with their performances in the Japanese scene.
: To no one's surprise Kome's gotten ca. half of Monado Boy's points, with DarkShad, Ramses and Uncivil Ninja being significant contributors as well.
: Lima's the leading player with 39 points, but the other mains are not that far behind. There's a giant cluster for 3rd, with five different players (incl. SuraSura and Bloom4Eva) contributing between 11 and 15 points each.
: Yuzu (15) and Nientono (14) have gotten ca. 20 % of their points each, with BlackTwins, NAKAT and Yetey not too far behind.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Continuing in RR Pools for Tam Invitational

Goblin 3-2 Cloudy . Notably went last hit.
Goblin 3-1 Regi Shikimi
Goblin 3-0 Bonilla
Cloudy 3-1 Regi Shikimi
Cloudy 3-0 Bonilla
Regi Shikimi 3-0 Bonilla

AlanDiss 3-2 BigBoss
AlanDiss 3-2 Gen
AlanDiss 3-2 Pollo
BigBoss 3-0 Pollo
BigBoss 3-0 Gen
Pollo 3-1 Gen (????)

 

[The_Bookworm]

Tan Invitational Round Robin Pools are over. Here are the standings.


Winner's
Sparg0 vs Cloudy
AlanDiss vs Skyjay
Goblin vs Javi
Chag vs BigBoss

Loser's
Bonilla vs Rox
Bernie vs Pollo
Waymas vs Regi Shikimi
Gen vs CK (Gen never selected random, but he went so many characters)


Not why this is happening, but this tournament continues the trend of players panic switching to , only have it fall on their face.
Both Bonilla in his set vs Regi, and Gen in his set vs BigBoss, tried the Sora counterpick on the final game, but neither went very well.
CK using Sora for the full set vs Chag is telling me that he does legitimately secondary the character, so that is something to note, even if his set vs Chag ended in 3-0.
Oh well. GimR is eating good today for the thumbnails. lol

Something to note about the invitational itself is that it follows a new hazards on ruleset.
The starters are: Battlefield, Small Battlefield, Final Destination, Town & City, Smashville
Counterpicks are: Hollow Bastion, Fountain of Dreams, Northern Cave

Solid stage selection in my opinion. Would personally swap Smashville and Hollow Bastion between eachother, but this works regardless.

Edit: I just realized that this stage selection doesn't include Yoshi's Story. An interesting shake up.

 

[Thinkaman]

Nobody asked, but here's a list of moves that are uniquely interesting to armor with Straight Lunge as you try to end juggles:
(Extra important things in bold)

u-tilt, d-smash, nair, fair, bair, uair, t.jolt, quick attack

Hey look! The thing! He's doing the thing!

 

[Diddy Kong]

i don't really get why tweek insists on maining diddy, the character really doesn't look that good, a lot of the time its obvious that tweek needs to outplay his opponent by quite a lot in order to squeeze out a win, seems really mentally taxing too

imo theres more reason to doubt the potential of diddy than that of byleth

also: glutto is so damn impressive, its like he never gets shook, the consistency man

Diddy has great top tier matchups, Tweek is making the character work for him. Outplaying opponents is kind of a Diddy strategy, you have to set these banana traps of course.

I mean, the character beats Palutena, Joker, Pyra / Mythra, ZSS and Sephiroth. That's solid, especially compared to what Byleth wins.

 

[NotLiquid]

Japan just wrapped up Mjolner #1, an offline tournament where the winner gets to go to Glitch Infinite. ProtoBanham by and large went mostly Lucina for this event, but fell in an incredibly close grand finals set to Ken. It looks we'll likely have to wait a little longer to see Proto's Min Min in the west unless he attends on his own.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Japan just wrapped up Mjolner #1, an offline tournament where the winner gets to go to Glitch Infinite. ProtoBanham by and large went mostly Lucina for this event, but fell in an incredibly close grand finals set to Ken. It looks we'll likely have to wait a little longer to see Proto's Min Min in the west unless he attends on his own.

Proto has a good chance of qualifying to the SWT Championship Finals if he gets 5th or higher at the SWT East Asia Regional Finals.

 

[SKX31]

VGA Top 8 (Winner gets a ticket to Glitch Infinite):

WB:

mCon Space (8th seed) - Peli (4th seed)
Solary Leon (7th seed) - Oplon Oryon (11th seed)

LB:

NCE Sisqui (2nd seed) - SIR Jaka (23rd seed)
Solary Gluttony (1st seed) - LOSC Lille Flow (10th seed)

• Both Gluto and Jaka have been on an absolute tear through LB - Gluto went 20-2 in games through 7 LB sets, while Jaka's gone 15-5 in games through 5 sets and taken out Ramses, Ogey and AndresFN.
• Oryon's only lost 1 game so far in 6 WB sets, to Italian Ness GANDIX (who placed 49th). Leon's only lost 2 games through 6 WB sets, to Ramses and Sisqui.
• Space and Peli have looked rather consistent as well - Space has only lost 2 games through 6 WB sets, while Peli only came close to losing vs. Austrian ROB Sintro but beat Azrael and Neeroz by 3-1 scores.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

VGA Top 8 (Winner gets a ticket to Glitch Infinite):

WB:

mCon Space (8th seed) - Peli (4th seed)
Solary Leon (7th seed) - Oplon Oryon (11th seed)

LB:

NCE Sisqui (2nd seed) - SIR Jaka (23rd seed)
Solary Gluttony (1st seed) - LOSC Lille Flow (10th seed)

• Both Gluto and Jaka have been on an absolute tear through LB - Gluto went 20-2 in games through 7 LB sets, while Jaka's gone 15-5 in games through 5 sets and taken out Ramses, Ogey and AndresFN.
• Oryon's only lost 1 game so far in 6 WB sets, to Italian Ness GANDIX (who placed 49th). Leon's only lost 2 games through 6 WB sets, to Ramses and Sisqui.
• Space and Peli have looked rather consistent as well - Space has only lost 2 games through 6 WB sets, while Peli only came close to losing vs. Austrian ROB Sintro but beat Azrael and Neeroz by 3-1 scores.

Call me crazy, but my predictions are a Glutonny vs Space Grand Finals.

Edit: Well nvm

 

[The_Bookworm]

Hey look! The thing! He's doing the thing!

I was about to comment about that yesterday, but didn't have the energy for it.
Panda assigned 3 of their players to play 5 games vs Peanut at Mainstage 2021.

My observations of the three matches:

• Vs ESAM, neutral B armor meant everything in that matchup, simply having the ability to armor through Pika's projectiles and multi-hits, while having the mobility and pressure to catch Pikachu slipping away. He also played exceptionally well in specifically the stages ESAM is comfortable with (Lylat, Kalos). This ended 3-2 in Peanut's favor. Now I see how Alternis was able to beat DM back at Smash Con.
• Vs Marss, the matchup looks brutal for Mac. Marss pretty much had complete control over the entire set from start to finish. Peanut was only able to clutch out the final game, ending the games 4-1 in Marss' favor. ZSS with Mac tier mobility, ability to control space, Flip Jump to threaten edgeguards and getting out of bad positions, looks like a very tough matchup for Mac to overcome.
• After losing game 1 as , WaDi played the rest of his games as , a character he has been training up the past several streams this month. It was pretty back and forth at first, but WaDi become a bit more comfortable with the matchup as time went on, ending the set as 3-2 in WaDi's favor. An entertaining set between two entertaining people.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Results for VCA 2021. First time Glutonny did not win a European major that featured only European players.

1. Peli (King Dedede technically wins a major?)
2. Glutonny
3. Leon
4. Sisqui
5. Space
5. Oryon
7. Flow
7. Jaka
9. RyuKai
9. NaetorU
9. PeW
9. Neeroz
13. Azrael
13. AndresFn
13. Sintro
13. Mezcaul
17. SuperStriker
17. Mika
17. Ogey
17. Nibodax
17. Midoriss
17. EMass
17. MoDzai
17. Tarik

 

[The_Bookworm]

Tam Invitation 2021

1st: Sparg0
2nd: Chag
3rd: Goblin
4th: Javi
5th: Skyjay
5th: Regi Shikimi
7th: Rox
7th: Gen
9th: BigBoss
9th: Pollo
9th: AlanDiss
9th: Cloudy
13th: Bonilla
13th: Bernie
13th: Waymas
13th: CK


While this is an invitational, this is still Sparg0's first notable tournament win post-quarantine. Note that he only used Cloud to beat Waymas at pools. Otherwise, he has stayed with the Aegis throughout the rest of the tournament.

Shoutouts to Javi's best performance in a long time, bringing out his SSB4 mains for this tournament in Cloud (who beat Waymas and brought Chag to game 5) and Sheik (who commandingly beat Skyjay) to help him.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Results for Mjolnir #1, the final Glitch Infinite invite event.

1. KEN
2. ProtoBanham
3. Gackt
4. Jagaimo
5. Shuton
5. Suinoko
7. Futari No Kiwami Ah-!
7. Eim
9. Yamanaction
9. Ly
9. Choco
9. HIKARU
13. Umeki
13. kept
13. Songn
13. Atelier
17. Paseriman
17. KOROMO
17. Mao
17. Hikari
17. Abadango
17. Kisha
17. Higusaki
17. CaptainJack

With that, Mugen , KEN , Peli and Sparg0 / all make it to Glitch Infinite. Now there's going to be a bit of a break for tournaments until CEO.

 

[SKX31]

1. Peli (King Dedede technically wins a major?)

I'd say yes. Dedede saw major action in two very important sets - first reverse-sweeping Space in the Winner's Semis, then 3-2ing Leon's Chrom in Winner's Finals. I'm not sure if he used Dedede beyond the streamed sets, but his Dedede did put in quite a bit of work regardless. First British player to take an Ultimate major, I have to assume as well.

Some other notes:

• Apparently Jaka managed one of Isabelle's highest placings in a major, equaling Lv.1's 7th at Sumabato SP 5. He's also the first Swiss person to place top 8 at a major in any Smash game per SSBWiki.
• Likewise, I think Midoriss actually got the best placing by an Italian player at an offline Ultimate major. Can't find any other Italian player who's gotten as high as 25th at a major before. Also, a Mac getting 17th at a Category 4 event is very much worth noting - it's only outdone by Takarotori's 13th at Umebura SP4 it looks like? Please correct me if I'm wrong.
• As mentioned above, Spyder got the best Polish placing at a major by placing 33rd.

And we do actually have one SWT regional possibly coming up this weekend... although that's in the air. The East Asia one, which is in apparent jeopardy because 8 of the 16 qualified players are non-Japanese as per the East Asia South setup (3 Koreans, 2 from the Phillipines, 2 from Hong Kong and 1 from Singapore) and it's being held in Japan. Going by the current COVID restrictions, it's difficult to see a scenario where they'll attend at least in person. Tanark and LynZle - who qualifiied for the Regional - were confused about the whole thing as recently as 11 days ago:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Wouldn't be surprised if it's held online or VGBootcamp / SWT try to compensate those from East Asia South some other way if they can't attend the Regional (whether inviting one of the players directly a la Oceania or something else). It'd be a major blow to their legitimacy if they held an entire online qualifier only for it to be essentially worth nothing.

Also, more Barnard's Loop releases:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

This is a pretty big one:

: Chag and Lui$ are neck-and-neck in terms of getting points, with Raflow not too far behind. The other players do chip in and add up to 60 % of Palu's points, which is an indication of her broad popularity.
: Repo and Peabnut contribute over half his points, with Kameme and TriM also getting relatively consistent placements as well. Those four combined are ca. 75 % of Megaman's results.
: Tsumusuto (16), Oryon (15.5) and Sem (12) are responsible for >80 % of Doc's points, and there are only 3 other Doc mains who have scored points. Yup.
& : Cosmos has actually a lead here due to his more frequent attendance, 79 compared to Sparg0's 70. Them combined with Shuton are responsible for over half of Aegis points, although there are a lot of players chipping in. Also, MKLeo appearance (edit: oh and apparently other Aegis mains have combined contributed as much as Sparg0. Huh.).
: Yonni's taken an early lead, with Jake's second. Behind Jake's there's a major cluster - Other Steve mains are responsible for 30%, more than Yonni and Jake combined!
: Yoshidora's the leading point getter - responsible for a 1/4 of the dino's points. Myles, Bluesky, Suarez, Danbi and Yakumo09 form a major cluster though and have combined for 37 % of Yoshi's points.
/ : Top 5 again. T3 DOM - to no one's surprise probably - leads and has gotten 1/3 of Belmonts' points, with Noxumbra and Trigger in close contention for second.
: Marss and naitosharp lead the way, with shky and Doorstop also contributing close to 1/10 each of her points.
: Atelier's by far the leading player - the gap between him and second place Quidd is 64 points. The latter alongside Puppey, Moxi and Ned have been significant contributors though.
: Sparg0's unsurprisingly the main point getter, with Kola second. Other Cloud mains have however combined for almost as much as Sparg0 (edit: wat), though - like Steve and Palu, he's a common sight.
: Kept alone has gotten >60 % of Villager's points. Only 5 other Villager players have even scored points so far, with Javi on Earth and Pokelam getting a couple notable placings and >10 % each.

 

[Linkmain-maybe]

I was about to comment about that yesterday, but didn't have the energy for it.
Panda assigned 3 of their players to play 5 games vs Peanut at Mainstage 2021.

My observations of the three matches:

• Vs ESAM, neutral B armor meant everything in that matchup, simply having the ability to armor through Pika's projectiles and multi-hits, while having the mobility and pressure to catch Pikachu slipping away. He also played exceptionally well in specifically the stages ESAM is comfortable with (Lylat, Kalos). This ended 3-2 in Peanut's favor. Now I see how Alternis was able to beat DM back at Smash Con.
• Vs Marss, the matchup looks brutal for Mac. Marss pretty much had complete control over the entire set from start to finish. Peanut was only able to clutch out the final game, ending the games 4-1 in Marss' favor. ZSS with Mac tier mobility, ability to control space, Flip Jump to threaten edgeguards and getting out of bad positions, looks like a very tough matchup for Mac to overcome.
• After losing game 1 as , WaDi played the rest of his games as , a character he has been training up the past several streams this month. It was pretty back and forth at first, but WaDi become a bit more comfortable with the matchup as time went on, ending the set as 3-2 in WaDi's favor. An entertaining set between two entertaining people.

I feel ESAM didn’t play the MU correctly and made lots of mistakes (lots of miss inputs and doing a lot of obvious grabs)

Nott saying I would do any better, but ESAM wasn’t playing very well.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Seems as though a lot more players are thinking of picking up Cloud again

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Tweek has also been playing him recently

Tbh I don't exactly know why this is happening but I'm assuming old Smash 4 Cloud players are going back to him after watching Sparg0 beat the likes of ESAM, Light and Tea at Mainstage because they realize that the character is still pretty good in the right hands. 20FF may just be upon us.

 

[PK Gaming]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Naitosharp is now the top Joker and he's thinking of dropping the character

Yikes. I mean I still think he's a great character, but "best" or "top 3" is increasingly becoming more unlikely

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Naitosharp is now the top Joker and he's thinking of dropping the character

Yikes. I mean I still think he's a great character, but "best" or "top 3" is increasingly becoming more unlikely

Zackray and Leo dropped Joker because they are having more fun with Sora and Byleth respectively. The character is still top 3 and unless he gets hard nerfed he always will be. It's not because of Joker's kit themselves that caused the best Joker players to use as a secondary.

Hell here's Sharp's new Joker matchup chart. He considers the character top 3 still but just thinks Pikachu and Aegis are better, he also believes ZSS is a more fitting character for his overall playstyle.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[Rizen]

Joker did get nerfed and he's a more honest character than he was but still top 5. This is in large part because most of the other top tiers got nerfed as well.

Unfortunately there are outside factors that affect character usage that you can't account for. Nairo, Samsora and other players have been banned and their respective characters took a hit in performance. MKleo decided he likes to play Byleth over Mythra and Joker. This doesn't mean their characters suddenly got worse, nerfs however do, but they're definitely not doing as well in tournaments. If a character really is a top tier they have multiple players and can weather the storm. It makes me wonder how well Sephiroth would be doing if Nairo used him in events.

About Joker's MUs, earlier I said YL goes even with Joker but now I'm starting to agree Joker has the slight advantage. It's another one of those MUs where Joker is the better character and gets more reward off doing what he does than YL. Arsen has good hitboxes and hits hard while YL struggles to kill until a much higher %- the story of YL's career.
I also agree Link gets destroyed by Joker for much of the same reasons he loses to Sheik. Joker can dance around his slow hitboxes and juggle him hard.