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Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

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  • Total voters
    574

Hydreigonfan01

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Aug 24, 2018
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Atelier, Raito and Suinoko are going to Genesis 8.
Considering we've had confirmed three players going recently, I reckon we're going to get a lot more Japanese players going to Genesis 8 announced.
 
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Linkmain-maybe

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Joker did get nerfed and he's a more honest character than he was but still top 5. This is in large part because most of the other top tiers got nerfed as well.

Unfortunately there are outside factors that affect character usage that you can't account for. Nairo, Samsora and other players have been banned and their respective characters took a hit in performance. MKleo decided he likes to play Byleth over Mythra and Joker. This doesn't mean their characters suddenly got worse, nerfs however do, but they're definitely not doing as well in tournaments. If a character really is a top tier they have multiple players and can weather the storm. It makes me wonder how well Sephiroth would be doing if Nairo used him in events.

About Joker's MUs, earlier I said YL goes even with Joker but now I'm starting to agree Joker has the slight advantage. It's another one of those MUs where Joker is the better character and gets more reward off doing what he does than YL. Arsen has good hitboxes and hits hard while YL struggles to kill until a much higher %- the story of YL's career.
I also agree Link gets destroyed by Joker for much of the same reasons he loses to Sheik. Joker can dance around his slow hitboxes and juggle him hard.
Yes, joker is the bane of my Link career. He is a struggle to ledge trap and edge guard. He also makes it so hard to land a kill, since all of links kill moves are pretty slow. Plus, if Link does get big damage against Joker, he gets Arséne and suddenly just becomes better than Link in virtually every way. Even worse is jokers good shield safety, making up-b OOS a worse option for kills. Counter offstage also kills link, unless he does a bomb recovery which is still edge guardable. Down gun is down gun, there is no need to elaborate further.

In regards to my other main, Hero, I think hero does much better than Link in the MU. While Hero is getting bullied way more than Link up close, Hero actually has the grounded mobility to attempt to run away and set up shop with menu. Joker is getting a lot of damage off of combos, yes, but hero gets the same and more with 4 hits when using oomph. Side B is very useful for keeping Joker in his place, so he can stop reckless approaches. Hero also destroys Arséne when he is out, 2 good hits will drain Arséne by about half. What kills hero in this MU is dying offstage. 9/10 stocks taken off of Hero when playing Joker are going to be edge guards, because up b is very linear with no rising hit box. Zoom is the only reason Hero doesn’t die the moment his feet leave the stage. Jokers just wins by getting advantage. Once that happens, getting back into neutral is HELL for Hero. Same with Link.
 

Cap'n Jack

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Atelier, Raito and Suinoko are going to Genesis 8.
Considering we've had confirmed three players going recently, I reckon we're going to get a lot more Japanese players going to Genesis 8 announced.
So excited to see more of Raito’s Banjo :ultbanjokazooie:
 

Hydreigonfan01

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Cloudy is potentially dropping Joker, again because he doesn't find the character fun anymore.
:ultjoker: seems to be becoming the next :ultlucina:, a top tier that people are dropping because he's boring.
 
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SKX31

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Naitosharp is now the top Joker and he's thinking of dropping the character
If he does then Joker's main remaining point-getters will be Zackray and eMass. If you were to tell me that a year or two ago I'd be wondering "Wait, who's eMass?". Still props to him for getting consistent results lately.

Joker does remain an incredibly popular character despite it all, as evidenced by Other Joker mains getting almost as big of a share of the points as the top 4 point getters combined.

Also, other characters:

:ultgunner: : Only nine mains who have scored points, Capitancito leads with 8.
:ultmewtwo: : Another low-usage character - only seven mains have gotten points on the board. WaDi unsurprisingly leads comfortably and has gotten >60 % of his results.
:ultsephiroth: : His results "only" being displayed in a Top 5 is due to his representation being extremely fragile. Every user outside of Ned and Niko contributes less that 5 % of his results. As Barnard noted, it's one-timers, secondaries or people who have since dropped him galore.
:ultfalcon: : Fatality, Jogibu and Ogey are his main representatives, and the three combine for ca. 2/3rd of Falcon's results. Outside of those three it's pretty scattered.
:ultfox: : To no one's surprise Light leads by a lot, while there are four other players who contributed quite a bit: Paseriman, ZD, Lui$ and RyuKai.
:ultbowser: : Another character that has three main representatives: LeoN leads by a significant margin, but HERO and German main DarkThunder have also contributed close to 20 % each.
:ultkazuya: : 8 mains have scored points with him... and Riddles' lead is much smaller than one might expect. Tarik is just 2.5 points after Riddles, with Brr and Tea's secondary usage also being notably close to Riddles' point haul.
 
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Hydreigonfan01

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:ultbowser: : Another character that has three main representatives: LeoN leads by a significant margin, but HERO and German main DarkThunder have also contributed close to 20 % each.
I'm actually surprised LeoN has a rather big lead. I always thought LeoN's and HERO's results were incredibly close overall but the gap is by more then 12%.
 

Nah

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:ultjoker: seems to be becoming the next :ultlucina:, a top tier that people are dropping because he's boring.
idk if I'd say that's the reason why top-level players are dropping Joker, "boring" isn't a word I'd use to describe him, but that's also a very subjective metric

At the very least, Leo more or less dropping him was kind of to be expected, or I think so anyway. It's pretty well known that he clicks really well with swordies, and Joker is not really a swordie so....
 

Gearkeeper-8a

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People need to get perspective, when people say X character is more fun to them, they dont mean that their old character was boring, simply that they have more fun and think they can get sucess with X.

Not only that most of those players dropping joker doesnt actually main the character but use him as a secundaries or pocket.

Another thing we dont know if zackray is going to stick with sora longterm.
 

The_Bookworm

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Jan 10, 2018
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Notable Japanese tournament has concluded two days ago.



The VoDs are at VGBootCamp.
The VoDs did not depict ProtoBanham going Min Min at all, probably used her earlier in the tournament. The VoDs show him using Lucina all the way. His Lucina was a tear after being sent to loser's, almost getting the double set win vs KEN, but KEN got a super clutch spike at low % to win game 4 and the whole tournament.
 

Ziodyne 21

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Another trend I see many :ultminmin seems to be losing confidence in her as a solo-main at least. Between ProtoBaham using Lucina more at Mjoiner and Dabuz not usg her at all for mainstage. This was a character so msny people saying was going to competelty break the meta at one point. So what happened?
.
I guess the nerfs added up. But the only big one eas adding 2 frakes of ledge tracking me to her Up-B. Which basically made her already bad recovery signficantly worse. Combined with her slow airspeed makes her very vulnerable offstage. As scary good as her edgeguarding She just as susceptible on the receiving end of it.

I still think a very good character who will always be an utter nightmare MU characters with poor overall mobility , a poor/exploitable recovery for god help you both. But I think many players are starting to figure out how to play against her
 

Swamp Sensei

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Another trend I see many :ultminmin seems to be losing confidence in her as a solo-main at least. Between ProtoBaham using Lucina more at Mjoiner and Dabuz not usg her at all for mainstage. This was a character so msny people saying was going to competelty break the meta at one point. So what happened?
.
I guess the nerfs added up. But the only big one eas adding 2 frakes of ledge tracking me to her Up-B. Which basically made her already bad recovery signficantly worse. Combined with her slow airspeed makes her very vulnerable offstage. As scary good as her edgeguarding She just as susceptible on the receiving end of it.

I still think a very good character who will always be an utter nightmare MU characters with poor overall mobility , a poor/exploitable recovery for god help you both. But I think many players are starting to figure out how to play against her
I think it's less the nerfs and more that counterplay was found. I personally feel the nerfs barely did anything to impact her overall viability.

Min Min is oppressive but she can't do everything at once.
 
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NotLiquid

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Another trend I see many :ultminmin seems to be losing confidence in her as a solo-main at least. Between ProtoBaham using Lucina more at Mjoiner and Dabuz not usg her at all for mainstage. This was a character so msny people saying was going to competelty break the meta at one point. So what happened?
.
I guess the nerfs added up. But the only big one eas adding 2 frakes of ledge tracking me to her Up-B. Which basically made her already bad recovery signficantly worse. Combined with her slow airspeed makes her very vulnerable offstage. As scary good as her edgeguarding She just as susceptible on the receiving end of it.

I still think a very good character who will always be an utter nightmare MU characters with poor overall mobility , a poor/exploitable recovery for god help you both. But I think many players are starting to figure out how to play against her
The only nerf that had somewhat of an impact on Min Min play was the change to her neutral air dodge, to a much lesser extent her up smash as well. Beyond that, most of her nerfs didn't actually matter. Her main weaknesses have been the same they've been since day one, and despite a couple notable exploits (some of which are so arbitrary I question whether or not they'll get addressed in one of the potential final patches), no one's really gotten to a point where they fully take advantage of them or really "understand" them yet, mostly because players live in perpetual fear of getting rolled over.

The challenge Min Min players contend with isn't merely rooted in players truly learning how to fight against her unique shortcomings, because frankly I'm not even sure how true that is at an empirical level yet (as a recent point of reference; the one game Proto went Min Min for in his set against Shuton at Kagaribi 5 was less a case of Shuton taking advantage of her blind spots and more Shuton's conversions leading to a lot of good reward Olimar nets from a majority of the cast), it's that at a top level she is really precise. In some aspects that makes her a bit shaky as a pocket option when a lot of players likely already have characters they might be more comfortable with in pinch situations, which I suspect played a part in Proto having a Lucina-heavy run in Mjolner given there was a Glitch Infinite spot on the line. And despite Dabuz having gotten some solid results with her as a secondary, he's admitted himself that he doesn't have the right mindset for the character, in part because of that required precision, and also more residually perhaps because he's notorious for hyperfixating on character flaws and regularly downplaying his character pool. Even ESAM has pointed out and made fun of that habit.

If Min Min influences the meta, it was never going to be on the back of a slew of Min Min mains coming out to top 8 every major in waves. It was going to be on the idea that at a mid level, and even top level to an extent (given Dabuz's only set win ever against MKLeo was made with her), she's going to skill check the hell out of everyone under the sun and never let people sleep on that.
 
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SKX31

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Speaking of, more Barnard's Loop posts (Twelve this time around) and that includes :ultminmin . Starting off with :ultdiddy: :


(Huto's gotten as many points as Aaron? Huh.)

Other characters:

:ultgreninja: : Tarik leads with 33, and Stroder's not far behind with 29. After that it's a bit more scattered, but iStudying, Lea, Donquavious and Jw are also notable contributors.
:ultlucina: : Proto is... second? Leon (French) is the leader here by 7 points, and the two combine for 55 % of Lucina's results. After that it's a lot more scattered, with Mr. E and Javi also chipping in close to 10 % each.
:ultbowserjr: : Only 7 mains (not unexpected) and Yoda Cage is the only one who has gotten >10 points. Snormanda and Ketchup are pretty close to that mark though.
:ultness: : Scend and Gackt are - to no one's surprise - the main pointgetters, but he has a number of up-and-coming talent like Echofire, Syrup and GANDIX.
:ultinkling: : Shirayuki's gotten ca. 40 % of their points, with Space and - surprisingly - Italian main Weijie01 taking second and third respectively by a considerable margin. He's not the last Italian / Milanese player featured in this batch either.
:ultmetaknight: : 13 mains have scored points for this guy in total, a far cry from his Brawl days. BONK!'s 11 points (27 %) is good enough for the lead, with Japanese mains Lickey and KaPMK second and third - althoug Yei might be undercounted. Also, Taiwan makes their first appearance on these lists via ShiNe and AcidBath.
:ultpikachu: : ESAM is... second? Wuh? Neeroz has taken the lead - sure he's attended more tournaments it looks like, but he's also been a bit more consistent. After that it's a lot more scattered, with Abadango in third.
:ultminmin : Unsurprisingly Proto leads here - his 62 points is about 20 above Dabuz's haul and ca. 30 % of Min Min's total. After Proto and Dabuz things become a lot more scattered. There's a tight cluster around third, with Rinor currently having that spot with 16. And oh hi Milano rep Genarog.
:ultwiifittrainer: : John Numbers and varun have gotten almost the exact same amount of points and combine for ca. 55 % of Wii Fit's results. There are only 11 mains in total, and after those two things become scattered.
:ultcorrin: : 5 mains have scored points for them, which... yeah. Ly and Shadic's respective hauls (24 and 19) account of 85 % of their points. A7mad_64, Bloom4Eva and WebbJP round out the cast. Suddenly "Lost in Thoughts all alone" is one of the most fitting song titles.
:ultgnw: : Maister unsurprisingly dominates here, accounting for nearly half of G&W's points alone. Beyond him no one else accounts for more than the Others' haul of 22 points - Across is second with 15 and a massive scramble for third place.
 
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Hydreigonfan01

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:ultlucina: : Proto is... second? Leon (French) is the leader here by 7 points, and the two combine for 55 % of Lucina's results. After that it's a lot more scattered, with Mr. E and Javi also chipping in close to 10 % each.
Proto using the character as a co-main/secondary must have been lowering the points his Lucina gained to not be #1.

BTW results for a stacked Japanese weekly
1. Atelier :ultpokemontrainer:
2. Zackray :ultjoker::ultrob:
3. Shuton :ultolimar: :ultpyra: :ultmythra:
4. T :ultlink:
5. ProtoBanham :ultlucina::ultminmin
5. Takera :ultken::ultminmin
7. Yamanaction :ultluigi::ultroy:
7. Tet :ultpit::ultsora:

Yep, Zackray is seemingly going back to Joker and R.O.B. after his underperformance with :ultsora: at the Eastern Powerhouse Invitational 2. In addition, T is back.
 
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blackghost

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Yep, Zackray is seemingly going back to Joker and R.O.B. after his underperformance with :ultsora: at the Eastern Powerhouse Invitational 2. In addition, T is back.
Sora is not a character that has demonstrated he has long term staying power.
Now that we are firmly back in ofline the advantages of the online release of some dlc appears to be falling off.
 

SKX31

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The second-to-last day of Barnard's character data has dropped, with 16 characters covered here. Some very low-usage characters here. The final 16 will be covered tomorrow:


(The fact that Jeda got more points than Armadillo caught me off guard. Olimar's is rather standard.)

:ulticeclimbers: : 10 mains that have scored points. Big D and Futari no Kiwami Ah! are neck-to-neck with 22 and 21 points respectively, and they + Murasat account for ca. 66 % of ICs results.
:ultpit: : Again, 10 mains that have scored points. Australian main RaZe has a slight lead here (and like with Bowser Jr. the only player to have double digit points), making him the first Oceanian player to be a character's leading point-getter. Tet and New Zealand main Ichigo are not far behind though.
:ultyounglink: : Kobe and SKITTLES!! are neck-and-neck and together responsible for 43 % of his points. Jdizzle, Toast and Supahsemmie have each contributed quite a lot each as well.
:ultmarth: : 6 mains that have scored points. And one of them is Gluto (he's third!). Kreeg's 18 points is almost half of Marth's total, and Rizeasu's 11 is a bit under 30 %. Riches to rags story for this character.
:ultken: : AndresFN unsurprisingly leads, but Takera is not far behind him. Vendetta is third and has the potential to rise further, while the remaining cluster of players have also notably contributed. Riddles appears here too.
:ultbrawler: : Yet again, 10 mains here that have scored points. Rizeasu leads here - 12.5 points, 1.5 more than his Marth haul - while Injelly and Ghost are tied second with 7 points each. No ESAM here though.
:ultpacman: : Tea dominates here - to no one's surprise, his 91 points is 55 % of Pac-Man's total haul - while MoDZai's 20 points ensures second place. Sinji's third with 11, and from there the cluster begins.
:ultryu: : ... 9 mains? Huh. I know these two batches has had a lot of uncommon-at-best characters, but still. Like his sparring partner Ryu's main player is AndresFN (18 points, 10 less than his haul with Ken!). Munekin's second with 9, and after that there's a cluster. Yes Riddles appears here too.
:ultincineroar: : 13 mains! The cat's rich by comparision to some of these guys. Skyjay's the leader by a comfortable margin, with Mystery Sol second at 6 points. After that a big cluster. Some of the players here like WOOD and Xaiop will reappear in this batch.
:ultjigglypuff: : 5 mains, the same as Lucario. What a coincidence. BassMage dominates completely - having gotten close to 75 % of Jiggs' results. Arika's 5 points is not only good enough for second place, but also 10 % of the Mon's points. While it's not the rock bottom the character suffered in 4, this still is far from the Melee heights.
:ulthero: : 14 mains! Akakikusu unsurprisingly dominates - he's responsible for 70 points, almost 2/3rds of Hero's total - with 4 of the top 6 being Japanese (choosing 6 since there's a tie for fifth place between tsu and Taiwanese main Quote). Vivi's the most sucessful NA main, tied third place with 5 points. Also oh hi Echofire, WOOD and Nair^.
:ultrobin: : 11 mains! Rizeasu leads with 8.5 points... just barely in front of Venezuelan main moroccoYo! Rizeasu is also interestingly the only Japanese main who's scored points for the tactitian it seems - most players are Americans (and that's not counting Puerto Rico main Tuitt, who did qualify for the SWT Central America regionals but had to drop out). And here's Xaiop, tied 5th with Dath.
:ultisabelle: : 6 mains. And like with Marth, Jaka's 18 points (I believe this is not counting his recent 7th place at VGA, I could be wrong though) is good enough for 50 % of Isabelle's results. Kept has used her much less than Villager, still, 6.5 points is good enough for second and 1/6th of Isabelle's total.
:ultdk: : 12 players! HIKARU and ChunkyKong are neck-to-neck for the lead, 12 and 10 points respectively and combined 50 % of his total. Not only do those who are tied third (ShiNe, Taiwanese and Kintero, Japanese) have 4 points, but Tweek's cameo here (2.5 points) places him 5th!
 
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SKX31

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SWT East Asia Update
Given the pre-existing setup I don't mind that they at least got one East Asia player in. It's the best compromise out of this mess, even if it ain't perfect: Japan gets a guaranteed 5 slots; and sure the LCQ's also is in the US but I can certainly imagine that any Japanese top player who enters that (looking at you Tea as a major possibility) will be favored precisely because a lot of your usual suspects (outside of like ESAM, Elegant and Light) are already qualified for the finalé. For that matter of course VGBootcamp would never want to throw away a regional hosted in Japan entirely.

Meanwhile the East Asian playerbase (and qualifier) do get at least one representative in and it ensures that the qualifier was worth something even if it wasn't perfect. XIFL's probably the right choice for this. Won East Asia's online qualifier, already is in Canada (placed 17th in a Category 2 regional which Riddles won) and was apparently an established player in Hong Kong. FWIW XIFL also took a game off of Leo at Uprising 2019. Long ago, but that's not something many can claim to have done at all.

Also, the final Barnard's batches have dropped:


THE RETURN OF EVERYBODY POOPS (VOD of a recent weekly LB Finals at Shanghai here, via Chinese Youtube / Crunchyroll Bilibili. Also includes prior sets in the playlist.)*. Outside of his reappearance, I'm surprised that Sisqui's lead over #2 Toura is not that large (might grow though since the former finished 4th at VGA) and the fact that Atomsk and Zaki are exactly tied and have combined for 60 % of Dedede's total haul is kind of amazing.

Other characters:

:ultsora: : 9 players, although it remains to be seen how many more points he'll get. Zackray leads - his 16 points is good for 30 % of Sora's total - and otherwise we have a grabbag of known names, such as Stroder, Lea and Kameme.
:ultrosalina: : 6 players, which is a major difference compared to the ol' Smash 4 days I have to presume. Dabuz has almost 50 % of her total points, with Yuzu and Homika also getting significant results within their different scenes. The other players are YamaD (Japan), Honduras' Big Fred... and EVERYBODY POOPS. There he is, in the most unexpected of places.
:ult_terry: : 13 players! Riddles leads, albeit Tsu is only 2 points behind. AndresFN and Cless also figure here with significant contributions, and those four have combined for 2/3rds of Terry's total point haul.
:ultlucas: : 14 players! French main Nitox leads with a 6 point cushion over Rinkururu. Nitox has perhaps sneakingly placed consistently well at European majors and that's why he has 18. After second place it becomes a lot more scattered - no one else has managed above 10 %.
:ultridley: : 11 players. Mezcaul leads by a massive margin - 37 points (65 %) compared to second place RJ's 5. Sure, Nair^ has not been as active as one might've expected (in part because of a relative lack of large tournaments in Mexico), but still, Mezcaul's point haul has been really significant for the space pirate.
:ultduckhunt: : 5 players (something tells me that we're gonna see numbers below this). Raito's 30 points is half the duo's (trio's?) total, with Wisdom and SkWirrel also amassing noticeable results at several tournaments. Vintendo and Zane round out the point-scoring playerbase.
:ultike: : 20 players chipping in! But with the caveat that only San has managed to score over 10 points. Still, notable players galore here - Goblin, Gluto, Yez, Pokepen, Colombian main Ghoul979 etc.
:ultkirby: : 6 players. Like Dedede, Kirby has an American / Japanese tie for the lead. This time between JeJaJeJa and Konokururu, both with 9 points. Jesuishoq has a surprisingly low 3 points, dunno really why that is. Low attendance in EU tourneys perhaps?
:ultzelda: : 13 players. Ven leads with 15 points - but only by 3 points ahead of French main Naskino. Ty, Mystearica and Chinese main Yooo are 3rd to 5th and follow closely behind Naskino in turn. After them, a major cluster.
:ultpiranha: : 6 players. Brood leads... barely, with 6 points. Irish main Dmitri is second with 4, with JP main Amesara and US main DiZ tied third with 3. Bloom4Eva (in a surprise cameo) and Doom round out the point-scoring playerbase.
:ultlink: : 16 players, but only 5 of them in NA (incl. Costa Rica-based main Triple for consistency) and 2 JP mains. French main Otakuni leads with 14 points, but RaZe comes really close to snagging his second character lead with 12. VinS and OTI are tightly behind with 8 and 7.
:ultganondorf: : 8 point-scoring players, which isn't bad considering some of the other characters. Rickles leads... with just 6 points. Japanese main Ganora's closely behind with 4, and then we have two players from the Middle East in third with 3 - Saudi main Hamza and Bahraini main D3. Also, Stroder cameo.
:ultlittlemac: : 8 players. Alternis and Peanut are tied for the lead with 6 each, and Italian main Midoriss is closely behind with 4 (Midoriss might've actually taken the lead with his VGA performance since he gained an additional 4). Kwaz and Taiwanese player Quote (who's appeared under the Hero section) also make appearances.
:ultswordfighter: : 3 players that have scored points. And poor Swordie is almost entirely dependent on French main Myollnir for points (10 out of 12, 83 % - even higher than Puff!). ScrubbedOut and Danklin have contributed with 1 point each... but man. I think we reached the realm of Smash Bros. extreme poverty here: where even Mac and Ganondorf have rich-by-comparision playerbases and they + Duck Hunt / Lucario can at least point to having a well-known player on their side. I swear Myollnir might be one of the least talked about low / bottom tier heroes out there. If not the least. The solace for Swordie is that other mains - incl. ScrubbedOut, Danklin and Erik - can help him right the ship at least a bit.

*(This guy is suddenly my new favorite player. Has one of the most eclectic character roster you'll ever see, has won a local while cosplaying and is not afraid to press a ton of buttons.)
 
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Nekoo

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I'm actually pretty surprised by the amount in French representation in like, almost all of the cast lmao. Wtf?
 

Cheryl~

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Results for the latest Sumabato that happened last night, 192 entrants.

1st: Kome :ultshulk:
2nd: Jogibu :ultfalcon:
3rd: Tsumusuto :ultdoc::ultryu:
4th: Komorikiri :ultsora:
5th: kept :ultvillager::ultdiddy:
5th: Toura :ultsamus:
7th: Asimo :ultryu:
7th: Chart-Yasu :ultyounglink:

Notably komorikiri's first really solid result in a long time, and with solo Sora at that! He beat Kome notably in winners side before losing to Tsumusuto and Kome in the runback, gaining a kept win in losers. We also have two Ryu players in the top 8, although Tsumusuto's was used as a secondary pick against Kome for one game. kept also seems to have picked up Diddy Kong as a secondary for Villager.
 

Patriot Duck

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I'm sure this patch will address Sora's counter freezing the AI Ice Climber. I don't think there are any other glaring bugs at the moment.
 

Hydreigonfan01

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Results for SWT East Asia Regional Finals

1. ProtoBanham :ultlucina::ultminmin
2. KEN :ultsonic:
3. Shuton :ultolimar::ultpyra:/:ultmythra:
4. Lea :ultsora::ultgreninja:
5. alice :ultroy::ultchrom::ultsephiroth:
6. Rido :ultlink:
7. Gackt :ultness:
7. Kameme :ultsora::ultmegaman:
9. Harasen :ulticeclimbers: :ultfalco:
9. Omuatsu :ultminmin
9. Paseriman :ultfox::ultsephiroth:
9. HERO :ultbowser:
13. murasat :ulticeclimbers::ultkazuya:
13. Keroguchi :ultwiifittrainer:
13. Kuroponzu :ultrob:
13. HIDE :ultwolf::ultpacman::ultminmin :ultpalutena:

ProtoBanham, KEN, Shuton, Lea and Alice all travel to the SWT Championship Finals.
 
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NotLiquid

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The biggest possible buff that Sonic could've gotten in Smash Ultimate was the addition of Small Battlefield.

Props to Proto for overcoming the inhibitions from their last bracket encounter by pulling off an all-Min Min 3-0 after KEN had reset against his Lucina, and doing it on one of Sonic's best stages nonetheless.
 
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Hydreigonfan01

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Alongside Proto winning the SWT tournament, Mr. E won a monthly today.
Combined with Leon's 3rd place at the VCA last weekend and Javi getting 4th at the Mexican Invitational last weekend, :ultlucina: is doing very well in the past two weeks. So I guess we can talk about her, because she's not falling off as people thought she was going too after early meta.
 
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The_Bookworm

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Can't believe it has already been over a month since :ultsora: came out. I guess while I am at it, might as well talk about him.

He is in a very..... weird place in the meta.

This character doesn't really have much of a playerbase.
The vast majority of Sora we have seen since he came out is from already highly established players simply testing him out, or multi-character specialists simply slotting him in their lineup. As such, he is very sporadic in appearances, and usually comes with the caveat that he is used with other characters.

Of course, we still have the cream-of-the-crop in Sora placements in Zackray's win with him at Kagaribi 5. However with him dropping the character ever since, the future of the character suddenly becomes more grim.

With komorikiri's 4th at Sumabato SP 4 and Lea's 4th at SWT East Regional Finals (using him + Greninja), it seems that Japan is not quite done experimenting with the character. If komo is truly getting back to form using the character, then that could be something significant for Sora. We will see how much this develops.

Alongside Proto winning the SWT tournament, Mr. E won a monthly today.
Combined with Leon's 3rd place at the VCA last weekend and Javi getting 4th at the Mexican Invitational last weekend, :ultlucina: is doing very well in the past two weeks. So I guess we can talk about her, because she's not falling off as people thought she was going too after early meta.
To be fair, the character WAS dropping off. There was a time period during quarantine that Proto was barely using Lucina at all, mostly using Min Min, while other Lucina players wasn't doing as well.

Post-quarantine, he has slotted her back in and started taking names with her + Min Min. Seems like other Lucina players are starting to do better as well recently, which does indicate that her metagame stagnation has come to a close.

With T:ultlink: returning, albeit at a more regional level as of right now, perhaps adult Link's metagame can finally break out of stagnation as well.
 

BlazGreen

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Nice to have confirmation at least since it'll stop people getting their hopes up for the amiibo updates. I also don't expect anything more than Sora bug fixes since it's only been a month since his release.

Overall I'm happy with the game's balance. Sure I'd like to have seen some more mid/low tier buffs but the fact that there's no undisputed number 1 character as well as the fact that low tiers can still go far in majors gives me hope for the game's competitive future.
 
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SKX31

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I'm actually pretty surprised by the amount in French representation in like, almost all of the cast lmao. Wtf?
That caught me off guard too. Think it's not only since there have been a lot of French tournaments, but also since there have been a number of Category 4 / 5 tournaments there that give out high payouts in terms of OrionStats points.

FTR I'm really interested in seeing how EU stacks up vs. NA / JP in SWT (incl. Gluto and Tomberry). Sure, chances are good that NA / JP players win most of the encounters - Temple Hermes Edition kinda proved that - but I don't think the gap between say Sisqui and lets say Dabuz / Kome is that large. I'll also be interested in seeing how Br1 AV, XIFL and Jdizzle respectively fare vs. more well known competition. They'll probably be percieved as underdogs at absolute best, but they'll have no expectations on them either and can probably take at least a set or two on surprise factor.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

The final balance patch. Shouldn't be too surprising but it's still disappointing considering how lackluster most patches were
I'm kinda hoping for some major changes, although I know that's probably going to not happen.

Still though, while the game is really well-balanced it would be well-served by a few major changes. The top (and to a lessser extent high) tiers - as nebolous as those terms can be in this context - do have an outsized influence on the scene while the "Sea of Mediocrity" and below - again as nebolous as that can be - do make some appearances later in brackets but are oftentimes reliant on them not facing overwhelmingly-against-them MUs.

That's easier to say than to do anything about, I got to admit that: balancing is not and never is going to be perfect, but there's still some room for improvement.
 
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Hippieslayer

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After watching Nairo's invitational I think the simplest Sephiroth buff that would work would be just making his wing come out slightly earlier.
 

Nobie

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Komorikiri (!!) made a Sora matchup chart, with ZSS being "It's over for him," Dedede being "Like eating a snack," and Lucario tier being even. Note that the last three tiers are "I'm not sure, but in my head, it seems losing/even/winning."

I think it makes a whole lot of sense, just given Sora's strengths and weaknesses.
 

Hydreigonfan01

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OrionStats will be updated tomorrow
 

SwagGuy99

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Komorikiri (!!) made a Sora matchup chart, with ZSS being "It's over for him," Dedede being "Like eating a snack," and Lucario tier being even. Note that the last three tiers are "I'm not sure, but in my head, it seems losing/even/winning."

I think it makes a whole lot of sense, just given Sora's strengths and weaknesses.
You beat me to posting this here. I actually think this is pretty agreeable, with a few things sticking out to me as a bit weird like the placements of :ultdoc::ultmario::ultdiddy:and :ultwolf: but for the most part this seems fine.
 

Gunla

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NairWizard

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If you watched MKLeo, then tried to play Byleth and it didn't work out for you, you're not reacting enough. You're getting edgeguarded because you're not reacting to your opponent's drift. You're failing up-b follow-ups because you're guessing and not reacting. You're n-airing shields and getting punished because you're not spacing it reactively. React, physically react. Byleth is a reaction-heavy character. I mean, most characters require tight reactions to play at a high level, but Byleth requires reactions at basically all levels.
 

Wigglerman

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FWIW, I personally am only expecting bug fixes (freeze glitch) and minor changes (hitbox connection for moves); I'll likely provide an addendum in the current patch notes thread unless it is a dedicated patch with actual balance changes.
I can't imagine we'll ONLY see Sora bug fixes. This is apparently the last patch with fighter adjustments in it at all. I wouldn't call a patch with solely bug fixes 'fighter adjustments'. I don't expect this huge, intricate list of character patches but I'd imagine if this is the last intended patch to do any character tweaking they'd be doing it now. Why wait? Especially when this sets the expectations no more will be done (Unless they royally break something and need to do an emergency patch or something).

Best I see it is Sora tweaks both to his bugs and maybe any attack changes (Damage and such) or if something else isn't working as intended. He'll likely be the 'meat' of the patch while the remainder of it will be like...5 characters getting minor buffs/side grades or tweaks. Imagining it won't be some meta shifting global roster shift by any stretch. Minor quality of life things to those who Sakurai feels still need it but that list feels small considering how tiny the last few patches have been compared to two years ago.
 

Nah

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If you watched MKLeo, then tried to play Byleth and it didn't work out for you, you're not reacting enough. You're getting edgeguarded because you're not reacting to your opponent's drift. You're failing up-b follow-ups because you're guessing and not reacting. You're n-airing shields and getting punished because you're not spacing it reactively. React, physically react. Byleth is a reaction-heavy character. I mean, most characters require tight reactions to play at a high level, but Byleth requires reactions at basically all levels.
I'm not sure I follow this line of reasoning.

"You're not reacting enough" doesn't exactly sound compelling in a game that has relatively low recovery frames+poor hit confirmability overall. Especially when we're comparing to a guy who's nearly a decade younger, we both know that neither of us has a reaction speed as good as people Leo's age anymore.

Not gonna pretend I couldn't be wrong though, I'm not smart or skilled.
 

NairWizard

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I'm not sure I follow this line of reasoning.

"You're not reacting enough" doesn't exactly sound compelling in a game that has relatively low recovery frames+poor hit confirmability overall. Especially when we're comparing to a guy who's nearly a decade younger, we both know that neither of us has a reaction speed as good as people Leo's age anymore.

Not gonna pretend I couldn't be wrong though, I'm not smart or skilled.
At high levels, success in this game involves a lot of reactions. When Kola up-airs you out of shield, he's reacting to you being in the air above you. When Leo fastfall b-airs after up-b he's reacting to where you went after he landed the up-b. Even play against a high-level Ganon and he will n-air to cover your ledge jump (which he can't react to), then react to your neutral get-up animation with f-tilt.

The nice thing is that you don't need a high reaction speed to be able to react to most things. The average human reaction time is like 14 frames. Studies show that reaction time after the age of 24 declines by about 4-10 milliseconds per year, and probably less in an environment where you're comfortable (like smash if you play a lot of it). By age 30 you might have lost, say, 30 milliseconds off your peak reaction time. That's... less than 2 frames. Even if you were below average to begin with (having 16 frames reaction time), or you lost closer to 60 milliseconds instead, you'd be at 17-18 now. With Ultimate's input delay of 6 frames, that means you can realistically react to anything 23-24 frames out.

Roll is often a 30-frame commitment so if you can set up a situation where you're looking for a roll you can react to the roll. Most characters have full hop hangtime of more than 40 frames, so you can react to a character being in the air above you. Neutral airdodge can be as many as 50 or 60 frames. Ledge getup is almost universally 34 frames. You only have 1 frame to punish it usually, so it's strict timing, but any move that lingers more than 1 frame gives you a pretty decent reaction window here.

I mean, Leo probably has an 12- or 11-frame reaction time so he's able to do things like react to Min Min's 18f-20f grab in neutral (and that too only sometimes! it's still tricky! spotdodge doesn't start until frame 3 so if he's not on the nose with his reaction it won't work!), which the average player will never be able to do. That means that Joker-MinMin for everyone who isn't physically capable of such reactions is probably a trash matchup. But that's a pretty rare situation.

It's also true that reactions aren't everything. Zackray and Wizzrobe probably have the best reaction times I've ever seen in this game. Wizzrobe actually covers both roll and neutral getup at ledge at the same time because he's capable of reacting to both from the same position, which is insane. But neither of these players is clearly #1 in the game, though both are good in their respective games. Other factors like mental stamina and adaptation also matter at that level.

But in general, the lower level you go, the more you can get away with not reacting with most characters, like Roy. With Byleth, though, this won't fly. You have to be reacting to even piece together a reasonable advantage state with your Byleth. If you're not, then you'll just be playing a very different, very-bottom tier character.

Just don't try it online. If you get just 3-5 frames of input lag online, or the input lag varies, your reactions won't work any more (but you can still react to neutral getup so at least nail that for sure).
 
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