Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[meleebrawler]

What's the deal with the Ras; why are they able to change back and forth? (I never played xenoblade).

Monolith Soft has a thing for girls with split personalities.

 

[Thinkaman]

There is something to note about the character transform mechanic that I think is worth bringing up.

With ,while the character is fully intangible while transforming, the character endures about 14 frames of cooldown, where they cannot act, they are stuck in place, and they are vulnerable. The overall move has a duration of 39 frames.

With Pyra/Mythra, the transformation is seemless. They transformed into the other enduring very little to no endlag, and move freely during the transformation. As seen in the trailer where she transforms to dodge Link's dash attack (and another later on with another character but I forgot), she is briefly intangible while transforming. The intangibility is more brief than Pokémon Change, but that is because the move has a significantly shorter duration.

Based on a very rudamentary look at this pre-release footage, it's actually almost identical to PT; perhaps a frame or two longer.

The interesting part is, in that exact sequence with Link you highlighted, the change retains air velocity. And noteably, at least in the exact timing shown, it has 0 endlag. (Not "normal" or "soft" landing lag of 2/4 frames--zero, like when Dr. Mario does a SH cape.)

What's the deal with the Ras; why are they able to change back and forth? (I never played xenoblade).

Mythra had to disguise herself as Pyra to teach Link ocarina songs discreetly, without letting Ganon or his spies catch on.

 

[Nekoo]

Just a perhaps, and big "I don't know hows it work" until we see more, but perhaps the switch could happens during a Spot-dodge/Spotdodge+B/Shield+B instead of a special move?
Even if the obvious logic is that the switch happens with Down-B I'm still not sure with how Mythra Premonition's work, if it's like a stronger bat-within or not.

 

[Arthur97]

Monolith Soft has a thing for girls with split personalities.

Well, spoilers and all that, but they seem to be separate individuals.

 

[SapphSabre777]

Well, spoilers and all that, but they seem to be separate individuals.

More like two distinct personalities in one body that can interchange with each other (forcibly and what-not, and one can hear the other, etc.), but that's not the point of the post I'm writing.

Pyra and Mythra are a very interesting character set, as we now have the classic "Zelda/Sheik transformation" and "PT Pokemon Switch" mechanic on another character, and the design for the character is very obvious: Pyra being slower but having much more firepower (pun intended) with her moves while Mythra, at the expense of said power, is blindingly fast and agile. The thing to keep an eye out on is how Pyra and Mythra function independently and in tandem with one another. If they are able to cover their bases like Pokemon Trainer does, then this character will be very readily viable thanks to such great flexibility innately granted to them; however, there is also the chance they could be a Zelda/Sheik scenario where the advantages of one outweigh the other...but considering it is DLC and how most of them are high-tier at least, or high-mid, I'm banking on the former to happen.

Should be very interesting seeing a character like Pyra/Mythra in Smash's meta.

 

[meleebrawler]

More like two distinct personalities in one body that can interchange with each other (forcibly and what-not, and one can hear the other, etc.), but that's not the point of the post I'm writing.

Pyra and Mythra are a very interesting character set, as we now have the classic "Zelda/Sheik transformation" and "PT Pokemon Switch" mechanic on another character, and the design for the character is very obvious: Pyra being slower but having much more firepower (pun intended) with her moves while Mythra, at the expense of said power, is blindingly fast and agile. The thing to keep an eye out on is how Pyra and Mythra function independently and in tandem with one another. If they are able to cover their bases like Pokemon Trainer does, then this character will be very readily viable thanks to such great flexibility innately granted to them; however, there is also the chance they could be a Zelda/Sheik scenario where the advantages of one outweigh the other...but considering it is DLC and how most of them are high-tier at least, or high-mid, I'm banking on the former to happen.

Should be very interesting seeing a character like Pyra/Mythra in Smash's meta.

You'd have to try really hard to make obsolescence a thing with two characters having a very similar base, as opposed to two completely unique characters that try too hard to occupy extremes.

 

[Wunderwaft]

Here's a compilation of Pyra/Mythra's moveset from the gameplay shown. Obviously it goes without saying that this is speculation and it isn't confirmed so one or two moves might be wrong, but it should be close to the real thing.

Spoiler: Mythra

Spoiler: Pyra

 

[StrangeKitten]

So this is basically Squirtle and Charizard, but with a huge sword and a bat within? Look, I know it's pre-release and normally I'd say that's too early to make a call, but unless both are somehow Ganondorf levels of bad, this character will be upper high tier at the very least.

 

[DougEfresh]

So this is basically Squirtle and Charizard, but with a huge sword and a bat within? Look, I know it's pre-release and normally I'd say that's too early to make a call, but unless both are somehow Ganondorf levels of bad, this character will be upper high tier at the very least.

I feel you on this (as they do look pretty solid to me as well), but it's probably still wise to hold off on making a preemptive estimate on their viability till at least after the Sakurai presents to get a better sense of their overall functionality imo...but I'm rarely one for making snap judgments, on smash characters or otherwise. I will say though, Pyra & Mythra do look unique and interesting in terms of gameplay despite my mixed feeling on getting yet another playable JRPG character for smash, so that's cool at least.

 

[Thinkaman]

I mean they look more like Lucina or Corrin than any of the Pokemon, of whom Ivysaur is the closest to a swordie. (And you still have to squint)

Unlike PT, there doesn't seem to be a significant difference in disjoint or movespeed, both of which are pretty huge factors in PT's dynamic. There also doesn't seem to be any immediately obvious recovery option between the two of them, but I wouldn't be surprised if there is something clever baked in so it's hard to say. Honestly, the Monado comparison might end up proving to be the more apt analogy than PT; guess we'll see.

 

[StrangeKitten]

What I meant with the PT comparison is that Mythra seems like she'll be fast (Squirtle) and Pyra seems like she'll be the heavy hitter (Charizard). Plus, y'know, the whole switching thing.

 

[meleebrawler]

I mean they look more like Lucina or Corrin than any of the Pokemon, of whom Ivysaur is the closest to a swordie. (And you still have to squint)

Unlike PT, there doesn't seem to be a significant difference in disjoint or movespeed, both of which are pretty huge factors in PT's dynamic. There also doesn't seem to be any immediately obvious recovery option between the two of them, but I wouldn't be surprised if there is something clever baked in so it's hard to say. Honestly, the Monado comparison might end up proving to be the more apt analogy than PT; guess we'll see.

It seems pretty clear that Prominence Revolt (pretty much Mii Swordfighter's Stone Scabbard on steroids) and Ray of Punishment both rocket their users into the air. But Mythra also has the forward-moving Photon Edge and probably isn't forced to crash down from the Ray, so she's probably better at recovering overall. Not tomention being attacked can actually help her via Foresight teleports.

What I meant with the PT comparison is that Mythra seems like she'll be fast (Squirtle) and Pyra seems like she'll be the heavy hitter (Charizard). Plus, y'know, the whole switching thing.

While Charizard is definitely the heavy hitter in moves, he is actually faster moving on both ground and air. Squirtle is more "agile" with better air acceleration and fast moves, though. I think that's a key part in how that three distinct character setup works so well; none of the three adhere to a role too rigidly. Perhaps Squirtle is the least versatile of the three, but even he has an armored rush move and powerful smashes for his size. Ivy can flit between a pseudo-swordie or zoner, and Charizard has recovery atypical of most heavies, giving him better survivability than most.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

It seems pretty clear that Prominence Revolt (pretty much Mii Swordfighter's Stone Scabbard on steroids) and Ray of Punishment both rocket their users into the air. But Mythra also has the forward-moving Photon Edge and probably isn't forced to crash down from the Ray, so she's probably better at recovering overall. Not tomention being attacked can actually help her via Foresight teleports.



While Charizard is definitely the heavy hitter in moves, he is actually faster moving on both ground and air. Squirtle is more "agile" with better air acceleration and fast moves, though. I think that's a key part in how that three distinct character setup works so well; none of the three adhere to a role too rigidly. Perhaps Squirtle is the least versatile of the three, but even he has an armored rush move and powerful smashes for his size. Ivy can flit between a pseudo-swordie or zoner, and Charizard has recovery atypical of most heavies, giving him better survivability than most.

Squirtle is also smaller, which helps make him more evasive, even if he's not faster in every context.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

If Pyra and Mythra are going to play as accurately as possible to their source material, which Sakurai likes to do, then Pyra will be pretty good but outclassed by other characters, while Mythra will be broken and top 5 in the game.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Is this the first time a DLC character is nearly universally hypothesized to be at least high tier prior to release? Would be kind of funny if she turned out to be low tier or at the lower end of mid tier, hah... But yeah, she's probably either high tier or top tier, based on what little we've seen. Unless she has some major flaw that we don't know about I think she's going to be very good.

 

[meleebrawler]

Is this the first time a DLC character is nearly universally hypothesized to be at least high tier prior to release? Would be kind of funny if she turned out to be low tier or at the lower end of mid tier, hah... But yeah, she's probably either high tier or top tier, based on what little we've seen. Unless she has some major flaw that we don't know about I think she's going to be very good.

It's really hard to make a sword fighter bad on paper. Only really poor numbers (frame data, movement or damage) can truly bring them down.

 

[Nah]

It's really hard to make a sword fighter bad on paper. Only really poor numbers (frame data, movement or damage) can truly bring them down.

That brings most characters down, not just swordies. You usually need something really powerful to circumvent poor mobility/frame data/kill ability.

And really it's too early for people to be saying with any degree of confidence that Pyra+Mythra will be amazing, literally all we have is reveal trailer footage. At least wait until we can see them in remotely real action when the Sakurai Presents trailer drops (though I know why ESAM and other top players are doing this now).

 

[Condenir]

I think that Pyra and Mythra are excellent characters...and are OBVIOUS choices to get into a NINTENDO fighting game.
regardless,after watching the (very little) footage in the two characters...I’m very hopeful and optimistic that they’ve gotten the initial concept of sheik and Zelda correct. A fast dynamic character paired with a slower and powerful character.
the only thing that concerns me is that...it seems line PYRA is the default (the K.O. Power) and Mythra is the secondary (explosive combos and speed) which seems like the inverse of an optimal format for the characters...but maybe that’s a way to balance them?
Regardless, I’m very excited to play as them ANIME SWORDS AND ALL!

 

[Frihetsanka]

the only thing that concerns me is that...it seems line PYRA is the default (the K.O. Power) and Mythra is the secondary (explosive combos and speed) which seems like the inverse of an optimal format for the characters...but maybe that’s a way to balance them?

I'm guessing you can probably choose which one you want to start as, like with Pokémon Trainer, and switching is probably their down-B, like with Pokémon Trainer.

 

[Arthur97]

Even if for some reason you can't pick at the start, switching doesn't seem to be a big commitment so it shouldn't matter much.

 

[StrangeKitten]

If you can't choose Mythra at the start, switching should be no problem. I play Squad Strike mostly, and unless I choose PT as my first character, it's unpredictable to know which one I want to start with. I could be facing Chrom when he's at 60% when I'm sending in PT, in which case, Ivysaur is better. I just always start Squirtle because switching instantly isn't a problem. Shouldn't be for Pyra & Mythra either.

 

[Thinkaman]

Swords were pretty lackluster in early Smash 4, until patches + Cloud switched things up.

That's the August 2015 Reddit community tier list. Keep in mind that Roy had just come out and was enjoying a honeymoon. (He would consistently plummet in subsequent months, so just ignore his results on this particualr month.)

No traditional sword user is in the top half. At best, oddballs like MK and the Pits barely make that threshold. Swordfighter is seen as the weakest Mii, and sword users as a whole are outperformed by every category of character other than "superheavy."


Even in Smash Ultimate, I don't think "swords" is a category that performs meaningfully above average.

• A lot does depend on if you count Joker as a sword-user; it's weird, because the answer would probably be no except that his single best move is very much a "sword move" and a lot of what makes Joker so good is the power of that move on a character that moves like Sheik.
• Ditto for Palutena, but weirder case.
• But if we are using a broader definition, that would probably include those MK/Pit hybrids types who now perform worse than the FE cast, and possibly even ICs/DDD/Jr.
• Opinions for Corrin have been all over the place, mostly explained by repeated significant buffs. Whatever one's interpretation of Corrin today, it's clearly not hard to make a lackluster character in spite of great disjoint, solid frame data, and acceptable movespeed.

The tiny peak we've seen of Pyra/Mythra reminds me more of Corrin and Sephiroth than Marth & pals. Which, imo, tells us basically nothing.

 

[StrangeKitten]

I find the complaints about sword users in Ultimate to be silly anyway. I'm not sure where the line is even drawn - is it characters whose movesets consist almost entirely of swords? Marth, Lucina, Roy, Chrom, Ike, Shulk, Cloud, Corrin, I'll allow Byleth to count here even though it's a lance and a bow acting like a sword more often than their actual sword, and Pyra & Mythra? Counting P&M as one, that's... ten characters out of over 80. Do we also count half-swordies? Link, Yink, Tink, Pit, Dark Pit, Meta Knight, Mii Swordfighter, Robin, Hero, Sephiroth. That's only twenty. I mean, that's a good chunk of the cast, sure, but with how much people complain, you think it'd be higher. And for those characters, they tend to use the non-sword moves a lot. Are we also counting weirdos like Mewtwo, Ivysaur, Charizard, Wolf, Rosalina, Palutena, Ridley, Joker, Min Min, and Steve, where none of their moves use swords (except for Steve's f-smash) but they have about as large of a disjoint? I just don't feel like I would have ever thought there could be too many sword characters if it weren't for so many whiners bringing it up.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Mythra will likely carry both characters. Pyra seems less impressive than Mythra, albeit still better than average. Those hitboxes look huge. They seem to have very good specials. And in Mythra's case, aerials, whilst Pyra has very strong Smash attacks.

They will definitely be Top Tier. Sometimes you can just tell. Just like with Brawl Meta Knight. We all knew it with the first trailer of Brawl as well.

 

[StrangeKitten]

High kill power could make Pyra equally valuable, if that is indeed the direction they go. Perhaps she'll even be heavier for greater survivability. We'll just have to wait and see.

 

[ZephyrZ]

I get the impression that Pyra/Mythra and going to largely have the same animations on normals to save on development resources, but with some tweeks to power and frame data to give them distinct feels. But I do think the two having similar attack range will make them more similar then any of the PT's three pokemon are to eachother. Because of this I don't think they'll cover eachother's weaknesses quite as dramatically, but to balance it out they probably won't have weaknesses quite as extreme either. I could be wrong though, because even if we know that they're both swordies there's still a lot of hidden attributes we've yet to see, like mobility and weight, could make a big difference in playstyle as well. Not to mention their unique specials.

As far as one character completely overshadowing the other...I don't think that's likely. Switching is such low commitment that even if one of them only has niche situations where they're useful it's still worth going for. Like if Mythra is better all around but Pyra is slightly better at killing at the ledge...then yeah, why not switch to her when you have your opponent caught in a ledge trap situation? This is unlike Melee and Brawl, where switching in the situations where one might have a slight advantage is a much bigger commitment.

It does make me wonder if they'll be have a switch timer like PT though. I kind of hope not since I find it needlessly limiting, but eh it's not that big of a deal if they do, especially if they also get some sort of quick switch tech.

 

[DJ3DS]

I find the complaints about sword users in Ultimate to be silly anyway. I'm not sure where the line is even drawn - is it characters whose movesets consist almost entirely of swords? Marth, Lucina, Roy, Chrom, Ike, Shulk, Cloud, Corrin, I'll allow Byleth to count here even though it's a lance and a bow acting like a sword more often than their actual sword, and Pyra & Mythra? Counting P&M as one, that's... ten characters out of over 80. Do we also count half-swordies? Link, Yink, Tink, Pit, Dark Pit, Meta Knight, Mii Swordfighter, Robin, Hero, Sephiroth. That's only twenty. I mean, that's a good chunk of the cast, sure, but with how much people complain, you think it'd be higher. And for those characters, they tend to use the non-sword moves a lot. Are we also counting weirdos like Mewtwo, Ivysaur, Charizard, Wolf, Rosalina, Palutena, Ridley, Joker, Min Min, and Steve, where none of their moves use swords (except for Steve's f-smash) but they have about as large of a disjoint? I just don't feel like I would have ever thought there could be too many sword characters if it weren't for so many whiners bringing it up.

The line is drawn at Fire Emblem, Xenoblade and sometimes the Square Enix characters. This is because deep down the complaint is not about the mechanics of how they fight; it's about a perceived visual similarity between games that we (I say we; I audibly groaned at the confirmation) dislike for similar reasons.

A Monster Hunter, Dark Souls, or Skyrim swordfighter would not draw the same ire from the same crowd (you'd get some tongue in cheek comments, of course) whereas a Fire Emblem character is doomed to be controversial no matter what weapon it yields.

 

[StrangeKitten]

The line is drawn at Fire Emblem, Xenoblade and sometimes the Square Enix characters. This is because deep down the complaint is not about the mechanics of how they fight; it's about a perceived visual similarity between games that we (I say we; I audibly groaned at the confirmation) dislike for similar reasons.

A Monster Hunter, Dark Souls, or Skyrim swordfighter would not draw the same ire from the same crowd (you'd get some tongue in cheek comments, of course) whereas a Fire Emblem character is doomed to be controversial no matter what weapon it yields.

Well, of that, we only have three Square Enix characters and now two Xenoblade characters, all of whom are justified. I think it's really the FE characters that make others feel like the swordie thing is a problem.

 

[meleebrawler]

I get the impression that Pyra/Mythra and going to largely have the same animations on normals to save on development resources, but with some tweeks to power and frame data to give them distinct feels. But I do think the two having similar attack range will make them more similar then any of the PT's three pokemon are to eachother. Because of this I don't think they'll cover eachother's weaknesses quite as dramatically, but to balance it out they probably won't have weaknesses quite as extreme either. I could be wrong though, because even if we know that they're both swordies there's still a lot of hidden attributes we've yet to see, like mobility and weight, could make a big difference in playstyle as well. Not to mention their unique specials.

As far as one character completely overshadowing the other...I don't think that's likely. Switching is such low commitment that even if one of them only has niche situations where they're useful it's still worth going for. Like if Mythra is better all around but Pyra is slightly better at killing at the ledge...then yeah, why not switch to her when you have your opponent caught in a ledge trap situation? This is unlike Melee and Brawl, where switching in the situations where one might have a slight advantage is a much bigger commitment.

It does make me wonder if they'll be have a switch timer like PT though. I kind of hope not since I find it needlessly limiting, but eh it's not that big of a deal if they do, especially if they also get some sort of quick switch tech.

People are always going to try judging these characters as if they're solo, as long as it's technically possible to do so. Actually not even then, as it doesn't stop people from calling Brawl Ivysaur the actual worst character in the game.

Swords were pretty lackluster in early Smash 4, until patches + Cloud switched things up.

That's the August 2015 Reddit community tier list. Keep in mind that Roy had just come out and was enjoying a honeymoon. (He would consistently plummet in subsequent months, so just ignore his results on this particualr month.)

No traditional sword user is in the top half. At best, oddballs like MK and the Pits barely make that threshold. Swordfighter is seen as the weakest Mii, and sword users as a whole are outperformed by every category of character other than "superheavy."


Even in Smash Ultimate, I don't think "swords" is a category that performs meaningfully above average.

• A lot does depend on if you count Joker as a sword-user; it's weird, because the answer would probably be no except that his single best move is very much a "sword move" and a lot of what makes Joker so good is the power of that move on a character that moves like Sheik.
• Ditto for Palutena, but weirder case.
• But if we are using a broader definition, that would probably include those MK/Pit hybrids types who now perform worse than the FE cast, and possibly even ICs/DDD/Jr.
• Opinions for Corrin have been all over the place, mostly explained by repeated significant buffs. Whatever one's interpretation of Corrin today, it's clearly not hard to make a lackluster character in spite of great disjoint, solid frame data, and acceptable movespeed.

The tiny peak we've seen of Pyra/Mythra reminds me more of Corrin and Sephiroth than Marth & pals. Which, imo, tells us basically nothing.

I didn't really mean swordfighters are actually better than other archetypes (that's why I said on paper), it's more so that in general, there's a relative lack of immediately obvious hangups like poor range on rushdown brawlers, or bad CQC on zoners. Swordies are a lot more modular since disjointed attacks serve well on both offense and defense.

 

[StrangeKitten]

I didn't really mean swordfighters are actually better than other archetypes (that's why I said on paper), it's more so that in general, there's a relative lack of immediately obvious hangups like poor range on rushdown brawlers, or bad CQC on zoners. Swordies are a lot more modular since disjointed attacks serve well on both offense and defense.

Perhaps this is the reason I always do well with swordies (with the exception of Marth). They're not necessarily the best, just easy to do well enough with because the disjoints are so safe.

 

[Galgatha]

I wanted to jump into this conversation, but I'll first start with the swordies.

The line is drawn at Fire Emblem, Xenoblade and sometimes the Square Enix characters.

I have to agree with this statement. It's not really that sword characters are bad, or that you can't come up with unique ways of making a sword fighter (MK, Mii Swordfighter, and now Sephiroth come to mind), it's just that here in the west...Fire Emblem really isn't as popular as it is in the east. And I believe alot of the Nintendo fans feel jilted that a series like Fire Emblem now has 8 characters (which is 10% of an 80 character roster), while other huge name series from Nintendo (Mario, Zelda, Pokemon) have only 9 (counting 1 echo []), 6, and 8 (counting as 1 character instead of 3) respectively. For many, it just feels off balanced. Are these feelings logical, not necessarily, but they do influence how people react to seeing new characters. And since the grand majority of the FE characters are sword users, the feelings get transmitted to almost any sword user we get.

In regards to Pyra/Mythra, I actually almost hope they aren't top/high tier. I just feel like there hasn't been a single DLC character that we have received here in Ultimate that is below a Mid tier (Some may argue but others like BestNess have shows results with him). I get that they are DLC, so Nintendo obviously wants to make them flashy and fun for buyers. But, just how I feel I guess.

Personally she doesn't look like my cup of tea. My wife said she will play her, second after . So I will get to fight against her, but I have no plans on maining her.

 

[Arthur97]

I'm not even sure it's necessarily Nintendo fans. Some, yes, but several seem like they may be jaded that their Western owned third party didn't get in. I will say FE does have a bit of an excuse for so many fighters over some other series in that it is generally a revolving door of protagonists so to rep the series you either cut the older ones or you have a large selection. This is not an inherently bad thing, just a thing. Xenoblade is in a similar situation where so far all three games have had different protagonists so just Shulk doesn't really cut it.

As for DLC's effectiveness. I think them all being at least decent for the most part is a good thing. Repeating Smash 4 might be a mistake, but so would intentionally making a bottom tier. Though I admit my bias would want these two to actually be good.

 

[Rizen]

I agree the issue with sword characters is mainly a Fire Emblem problem with being the main offenders. You have four characters who originally stemmed from Marth with Roy being his clone in Melee, Lucina being an echo and Chrom being Roy's echo. They're all the same basic archetype of fast blades with no projectiles, very similar animations and counters. 's a bit more of a deviation as he at least has unique animations but is still similar. 's the next step out but plays similar to Marcina.
That's why I like the approach they took with , giving her several weapons including a halberd for F/Bair and a bow. I find that a lot more interesting than following the Marth formula again.

 

[Arthur97]

Ike is a bit more than different animations. This type of generalization is just so...something. Not exactly sure how to word it. And Chrom and Lucina should be viewed in context of what they are in Smash: low effort clones and even then they're among the more unique echoes.

 

[Eremurus]

High kill power could make Pyra equally valuable, if that is indeed the direction they go. Perhaps she'll even be heavier for greater survivability. We'll just have to wait and see.

Mobility and kill confirms have been more beneficial attributes since Smash 64. KO power by itself is whatever. Look at Ganondorf or Incineroar.

Unless using one or the other directly affects match-up spreads; I think using Mythra will most likely be optimal. But due to them being.. semi-clones, with a more similar moveset between the two vs say, Zelda & Sheik, which are radical opposites, people will most likely choose the lady they like more.

 

[Firox]

Well, of that, we only have three Square Enix characters and now two Xenoblade characters, all of whom are justified. I think it's really the FE characters that make others feel like the swordie thing is a problem.

Funny thing, people have accepted the meme "too many swordsmen" as universal truth that the game actually has too many swordsmen despite the fact that percentage-wise, swordies only make up about 25% of the entire roster. Of those, there is quite a diverse cast of archetypes. You've got:

-Zoner Swordies:

-Range Monster Swordies:

-Rush Down Swordies:

-And All-Purpose Swordies:

I think the psychological issue here comes from the fact that FE started the most stereotypical blueprint of a "swordie" with Marth and Roy in Melee. Roy was a clone, of course, but they started the tradition of samey-ness with
-Chargeable Neutral B
-Up Slash Recovery Up B
-Down B counter
-Multi-slash Side B

Take into account that even after Roy was given his own relative flavor, he still carries a lot of similarities to Marth. Then notice that each of them now has their own echoes in turn, basically creating 4 versions of the same basic character. Then take into account that five of the FE characters have that same blue/green hair and anime aesthetic. In short, sword fighters are still a minority in Smash, but they do have issues with samey-ness both in moveset variation and physical appearance. When you add all of this together, it makes sense why people would have some significant fatigue towards the "anime swordsman" archetype despite the fact that the game is still numerically far from being inundated with swordfighters. As for myself, I'm not so concerned with how a character looks as long as they are strikingly unique from the other swordies in playstyle and capability. For this reason, I'm actually pretty stoked about Pyra/Mythra because their transformation mechanic, toolbox playstyle and unique use of projectiles look very promising for competitive freshness.

 

[Aaron1997]

🏆第230回タミスマSP大会

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☑️2021/02/19開催

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本大会は『ムタマ』選手がタミスマ史上初の快挙となる、クッパJr.単騎で初優勝となりました！次回は2/21(日)14:10よりセミプロ杯を開催いたします。 pic.twitter.com/UUUWGDl1NB

— 鮫木 (@sameki1024) February 19, 2021

Probably the best Bowser Jr player in the world (Mutama) wins online Japanese event.

 

[StrangeKitten]

Mobility and kill confirms have been more beneficial attributes since Smash 64. KO power by itself is whatever. Look at Ganondorf or Incineroar.

Unless using one or the other directly affects match-up spreads; I think using Mythra will most likely be optimal. But due to them being.. semi-clones, with a more similar moveset between the two vs say, Zelda & Sheik, which are radical opposites, people will most likely choose the lady they like more.

I mean, I'd be surprised if Pyra is as poor, mobility-wise, as Ganondorf or Incin. And characters with high KO power can have kill confirms too. Look at Charizard back throw back air, or Incin's down tilt into either f-tilt or fair at ledge. Additionally, confirms are great, but can often be % specific. Just look at poor Inkling, who is currently struggling somewhat because their only ways of killing at reasonable %s are up throw up air (which has a very small % window on non-heavies), and smash attacks. Meanwhile, Charizard is great for PT, because so many of his moves kill while Squirtle and Ivy are limited in that department. And part of what makes Charizard great is that those kill moves also have a ton of range, like a certain red blade's moves will

 

[ZephyrZ]

Mobility and kill confirms have been more beneficial attributes since Smash 64. KO power by itself is whatever. Look at Ganondorf or Incineroar.

Unless using one or the other directly affects match-up spreads; I think using Mythra will most likely be optimal. But due to them being.. semi-clones, with a more similar moveset between the two vs say, Zelda & Sheik, which are radical opposites, people will most likely choose the lady they like more.

KO power by itself is abolutely important. They allow for more flexibility in how you land your kills, unlike kill confirms which often mean fishing for the same few moves and often have percent windows. It's just that characters like Ganondorf have so many weaknesses stacked on top of eachother that they outweigh the character's few strengths. Even then Incineroar and Ganon are both terrifying if they can somehow back you into a corner - I think most characters would love to be able to transform into them on a whim.

And even then it could be argued that kill confirms are a factor in a character's overall KO power - what is Roy's Jab if not a frame 5 kill move?

 

[Arthur97]

I still thinks saying their movesets and even appearances in most cases seems to be an overly broad generalization. Chrom doesn't really look that much like Marth just because they have blue hair and clothes. Neither Byleth really looks like anyone else on the roster. Roy...is a redhead, but admittedly his clothes may look the most like Marth's now. Even Lucina whose outfit they designed to resemble Marth's is fairly different from what he wears in Smash. I would love if Chrom and Lucina got decloned, but as it stands, people really need to remember what they are on the roster.

That said, outside those four and maybe Link and Young Link (at least with how their moves look), I don't think the movesets themselves are very similar. A chargable neutral is...pretty vague and hardly a swordie exclusive thing (DK, Ridley, Mewtwo, Lucario, Greninja, etc.). In fact, neither are counters now (Little Mac, K. Rool, Incineroar, Lucario, Greninja, Brawler, Palutena, Peach, Daisy maybe more I missed). Not like Aeither is actually like Dolphin slash either. Side special wasn't multi-slash. Ike is actually quite different from Marth moveset wise. The special formula argument doesn't hold that much weight really.