Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

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Rocketjay8

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I've suspected it since the start of the game, but I think Abadango's loss to double Yoshi is the newest piece of evidence than Inklings have a bad matchup against the green dinosaur.

Neutral B is a complete non-factor in the match. Yoshi's double jump armor messes up all sorts of things, and his general slipperiness gives Inklings a hard time.

If Inklings are top tier as everyone predicts, I think there's a strong chance you'll see Yoshi thrive in the meta as well. Some already think he's top tier, but being a good counterpick against potentially one of the best characters in the game is a big deal.

Meanwhile, Sol got 1st going all Little Mac at a 161-man local.


It's just a local, and Sol has a ton of experience with his character that his opponents might not, but it's also like 4x the size of a typical Smash 4 local, AND Sol still thinks Mac is one of the worst characters in the game.
Can you give me links to the tourney of the Yoshi vs Inkling and the Little Mac getting first place, please?
 
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I see "Congratulations to the Winner of Umebura SP 2", my first thought was "Zackray?", I click it and yup, it's Zackray. Is he the #1 player in Japan right now, with Wolf? Is Wolf being slept on? Not only is Zackray getting amazing results in Japan, several notable players seem to rank Wolf highly (such as Dabuz). The character seems to have quite a bit of potential, though it's still early in the meta. Where will Wolf end up, I wonder?
 

Browny

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There's a decent level in irony in how Abadango saw his greatest success with Pacman and Wario, then later Mewtwo (on release, he didnt switch after he got buffed) before switching to Bayo and never doing well again. Then in ultimate Pacman tears up japan, Wario tears up the west and Aba once against switched to the 'best' character and is getting results way below what he used to.

Let this be a lesson to all people who decide their mains based on what a few popular streamers say; if a former top 10 worldwide player does it and fails across multiple games, why would it work for you? Play who you're good at.
 

Cheryl~

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There's a decent level in irony in how Abadango saw his greatest success with Pacman and Wario, then later Mewtwo (on release, he didnt switch after he got buffed) before switching to Bayo and never doing well again. Then in ultimate Pacman tears up japan, Wario tears up the west and Aba once against switched to the 'best' character and is getting results way below what he used to.

Let this be a lesson to all people who decide their mains based on what a few popular streamers say; if a former top 10 worldwide player does it and fails across multiple games, why would it work for you? Play who you're good at.
To be fair Abadango’s been playing Inkling since the E3 demo dropped so I think it’s more of he just really likes Inkling than “oh they’re top tier someone said so they must be good!”. Although I do agree with you on your mindset, just play who you’re good at and the results will flow in with enough practice and if you’re not using anyone *too* bad. (Although Little Mac of all characters won a 160-man local so what do I know o.O)
 
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There's a decent level in irony in how Abadango saw his greatest success with Pacman and Wario, then later Mewtwo (on release, he didnt switch after he got buffed) before switching to Bayo and never doing well again. Then in ultimate Pacman tears up japan, Wario tears up the west and Aba once against switched to the 'best' character and is getting results way below what he used to.

Let this be a lesson to all people who decide their mains based on what a few popular streamers say; if a former top 10 worldwide player does it and fails across multiple games, why would it work for you? Play who you're good at.
I get the sentiment but this seems like a dishonest example to support it. Abadango's tournament results, for as much as people hype him up, have always been extremely lopsided, and this has been a trend for as long as he's mained characters like Pac-Man and Wario. The latter, in particular, is a character that experienced massive power creep in Smash 4 once DLC started hitting, so dropping him when he did made perfect sense. Conversely, Frostbite 2017 comes to mind as a tournament where he mainly ran Mewtwo and Meta Knight, two characters he generally always performed well with (as opposed to Bayonetta), and he still placed poorly in that tournament. I'd go as far to say that Aba is one of the way more inconsistent Japanese players, though admittedly that could be attributed to how his character pool tends to often end up being spread thin.

He also committed to maining Inkling as early as E3, and the way you word it kind of makes it sound like he was effectively trend chasing when players like him and Cosmos were initially the players who convinced players like ZeRo that Inklings were good. That, if any character he's mained, is probably the greatest example of where he did the opposite of what you're suggesting, and just picked up the character because he finds them fun, as opposed to wanting to win. It's just convenient for him that they ended up being "top tier" contenders.
 
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Lavani

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Maybe I missed a page of discussion but I'm having trouble understand the percieved power gap between lucina and Marth.

Can I be enlightened? Are people having trouble spacing tippers in a faster paced meta? Is it some exclusive kill confirm?
Since uthrow's kill power has been nerfed, Marth doesn't have a proper non-tipper stock cap anymore. Jab1>fair/ftilt/fsmash/whatever is dead, nair1 setups don't allow for tipper spacing. Marth just isn't perceived to be giving enough over Lucina to take the risk of the opponent living past 200% over a momentary lapse in perfect spacing.
 
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I've suspected it since the start of the game, but I think Abadango's loss to double Yoshi is the newest piece of evidence than Inklings have a bad matchup against the green dinosaur.

Neutral B is a complete non-factor in the match. Yoshi's double jump armor messes up all sorts of things, and his general slipperiness gives Inklings a hard time.

If Inklings are top tier as everyone predicts, I think there's a strong chance you'll see Yoshi thrive in the meta as well. Some already think he's top tier, but being a good counterpick against potentially one of the best characters in the game is a big deal.

Meanwhile, Sol got 1st going all Little Mac at a 161-man local.


It's just a local, and Sol has a ton of experience with his character that his opponents might not, but it's also like 4x the size of a typical Smash 4 local, AND Sol still thinks Mac is one of the worst characters in the game.
Only says he went all mac in winners and grands. Implying he used other chars to some degree getting there.
 

Browny

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I get the sentiment but this seems like a dishonest example to support it. Abadango's tournament results, for as much as people hype him up, have always been extremely lopsided, and this has been a trend for as long as he's mained characters like Pac-Man and Wario. The latter, in particular, is a character that experienced massive power creep in Smash 4 once DLC started hitting, so dropping him when he did made perfect sense. Conversely, Frostbite 2017 comes to mind as a tournament where he mainly ran Mewtwo and Meta Knight, two characters he generally always performed well with (as opposed to Bayonetta), and he still placed poorly in that tournament. I'd go as far to say that Aba is one of the way more inconsistent Japanese players, though admittedly that could be attributed to how his character pool tends to often end up being spread thin.

He also committed to maining Inkling as early as E3, and the way you word it kind of makes it sound like he was effectively trend chasing when players like him and Cosmos were initially the players who convinced players like ZeRo that Inklings were good. That, if any character he's mained, is probably the greatest example of where he did the opposite of what you're suggesting, and just picked up the character because he finds them fun, as opposed to wanting to win. It's just convenient for him that they ended up being "top tier" contenders.
To be clear, I didn't mean that Aba decided to main inkling based on what streamers said. But I do believe he stuck with them even though he had no opportunity to properly test out his old mains, because everyone else believed they were the best.

He had no chance to test out Wario before deciding to no longer main him. A top level player capable of winning majors 'committing' to maining a character in a -5 month demo is not something I'd bet on. He will swap as soon as he figures out how to get better results. I don't expect him to take another 49th before giving up.
 

Nobie

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Only says he went all mac in winners and grands. Implying he used other chars to some degree getting there.
He also said it was the highest singular Mac placing, so he might be emphasizing that he went all Mac in winners and grands AS WELL. The language does make it ambiguous though.
 
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Here's the full results for anyone who wasn't able to catch Umebura SP 2:

Speaking of Lea and Greninja in particular though, nice to see him translate his Online Ladder dominance smoothly into offline play. Top 8 at this tournament with all these notable player threats running around definitely no easy feat. Looking forward to the future!

 

J0eyboi

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Speaking of Lea and Greninja in particular though, nice to see him translate his Online Ladder dominance smoothly into offline play. Top 8 at this tournament with all these notable player threats running around definitely no easy feat. Looking forward to the future!

I have conflicted emotions about this clip. One the one hand, dragdown uair techchases are nasty and I'm glad Lea is showing that to the world. On the other hand, Zaki teched in 3 times in a row. Teching in place or out both would've gotten him out of the loop, yet he didn't even do that once.
 
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trickroom

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Let this be a lesson to all people who decide their mains based on what a few popular streamers say; if a former top 10 worldwide player does it and fails across multiple games, why would it work for you? Play who you're good at.
You're right! This is exactly why CaptainZack should've stayed on Peach in Smash 4, Tweek should've never learned Cloud/Bayo, and why Leffen should've stuck with Yoshi. Idk what these guys were thinking.





Setting that aside, one thing that really interested me about Umebura SP2 was that Hikaru is still really good, and still playing DK. At one of the earliest Japanese tournaments I was a little surprised to see him on Incineroar, so it's good to see that he's back on his strongest Sm4sh character. There are quite a few VODs of him from that event, but I think him versus Gackt is a great one because it's the only one where he wins against a strong player (the other two are losses to Umeki and Shuton). One thing that strikes me when watching it is that Hikaru's already using the new dash mechanics to great success. He gets so many neutral wins off of foxtrotting and dash dancing, and I think characters like DK with big hitboxes and good run speeds should all be taking a page out of his book.
 
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Kellojolly

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How much did Zackray use Ike? Was it just for one particular MU?
I believe for like one match, yeah.
He was almost exclusively using Wolf and his wolf was insane.

Curious, who did he feel the need to switch off of Wolf for, I know his Wolf has been pretty amazing. Did the Ike actually do work or was it like MKLeo's Richter where they were used but didn't win anything so it doesn't really count?
I am not too sure. Sorry.
 
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I believe for like one match, yeah.
He was almost exclusively using Wolf and his wolf was insane.
Curious, who did he feel the need to switch off of Wolf for, I know his Wolf has been pretty amazing. Did the Ike actually do work or was it like MKLeo's Richter where they were used but didn't win anything so it doesn't really count?
 

bc1910

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I have conflicted emotions about this clip. One the one hand, dragdown uair techchases are nasty and I'm glad Lea is showing that to the world. On the other hand, Zaki teched in 3 times in a row. Teching in place or out both would've gotten him out of the loop, yet he didn't even do that once.
This tech chase is comparable to Sheik’s tech chases from Melee in that it’s actually a frame trap. All of the opponent’s options can be reacted to and punished. If Greninja jabs as the opponent hits the ground (as you can see Lea is doing) he covers the missed tech. He then has time to punish a roll to either side with dash attack or neutral getup with Dtilt before the opponent can recover, as long as he reacts fast enough. You have the rest of your jab animation to react, so about 20 frames.

Not to say that Zaki shouldn’t have mixed up his techs, just saying this is very difficult to escape if the Greninja reacts properly.
 

Rizen

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Uh, so Zackray won the second Umebura SP, mostly :ultwolf:. And I think he's going to GENESIS as well, so I'm looking forward to that. Results can be seen right here. A bit of some strange placements, like Aba getting 49th, and takera getting 65th. Kuro still sticking with :ultpit::ultdarkpit: to great success, and then Zaki is just high up there.

I think T actually was using :ultlink: more, along with :ultyounglink:, but lost to Shuton and Paseriman before top 24.
I was surprised to see T not doing better. I've seen him get 1st of 101 including Ken and 3rd of 385.

:ultyounglink::ultlink: are an interesting pair, they're probably who I'll end up co-maining. Although I don't think they cover eachother's weakness particularly well; they both probably lose to top tiers. It's more of a player counterpick thing. Link has really high reward if you can read and space the opponent. YL has lower reward but can deal with fast little critters like Pichu. I feel like :4link: is part way in between them, closer to YL.
 
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I have conflicted emotions about this clip. One the one hand, dragdown uair techchases are nasty and I'm glad Lea is showing that to the world. On the other hand, Zaki teched in 3 times in a row. Teching in place or out both would've gotten him out of the loop, yet he didn't even do that once.

This tech chase is comparable to Sheik’s tech chases from Melee in that it’s actually a frame trap. All of the opponent’s options can be reacted to and punished. If Greninja jabs as the opponent hits the ground (as you can see Lea is doing) he covers the missed tech. He then has time to punish a roll to either side with dash attack or neutral getup with Dtilt before the opponent can recover, as long as he reacts fast enough. You have the rest of your jab animation to react, so about 20 frames.

Not to say that Zaki shouldn’t have mixed up his techs, just saying this is very difficult to escape if the Greninja reacts properly.
bc1910 is right about Greninja's tech chase game here. Jab can whiff and if you are ready, you can still cover options. It's not as easy to get around as you'd think. Somé has showcased stuff like this in the past on Twitter and I've seen Venia himself do quite similar things in regards to Falling Uair Shenanigans in bracket:
 
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Curious, who did he feel the need to switch off of Wolf for, I know his Wolf has been pretty amazing. Did the Ike actually do work or was it like MKLeo's Richter where they were used but didn't win anything so it doesn't really count?
I haven’t watched yet, but Zackray brought out Ike a while back when he seemed like he was running through possible mains/secondaries. He used Ike against Eim’s Wolf about a week ago, and Metaknight against Eim’s Sheik.

He may not like the ditto?
 

J0eyboi

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This tech chase is comparable to Sheik’s tech chases from Melee in that it’s actually a frame trap. All of the opponent’s options can be reacted to and punished. If Greninja jabs as the opponent hits the ground (as you can see Lea is doing) he covers the missed tech. He then has time to punish a roll to either side with dash attack or neutral getup with Dtilt before the opponent can recover, as long as he reacts fast enough. You have the rest of your jab animation to react, so about 20 frames.

Not to say that Zaki shouldn’t have mixed up his techs, just saying this is very difficult to escape if the Greninja reacts properly.
I know, I labbed/theorycrafted all of this the other day. I said that dragdown uair techchases are nasty for a reason. That said, the way Zaki teched specifically allowed Lea to continue looping him. Had he teched out, the dash attack would've sent him offstage, and Lea couldn't have kept resetting the situation. The tech trap is real, but that loop is fake as ****.
 
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Also, could YB please go to an offline tourney?

Obviously, he may not be able to for a variety of reasons, but he’s a stellar player, and has an iron grip on the online rankings in Japan.

Samus/Dark Samus have some really dumb stuff, and the ability to actually cancel charge shot - into imagination(!) - leads to some delicious mind games. And the lack of multiple airdodges makes sniping waaaay more terrifying.

Oh, and Nair can shieldpoke on full shields on certain characters. Because ofc.
 
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Rizen

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Someone mentioned Mii swordfighter. I haven't seen much of him/her outside:

He looks like a quintessential mid tier. Solid moveset yet not particularly fast. Gale strike is overrated a little. It starts combos but is slow as syrup.
 

bc1910

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I know, I labbed/theorycrafted all of this the other day. I said that dragdown uair techchases are nasty for a reason. That said, the way Zaki teched specifically allowed Lea to continue looping him. Had he teched out, the dash attack would've sent him offstage, and Lea couldn't have kept resetting the situation. The tech trap is real, but that loop is fake as ****.
The “loop” only works on tech behind, that much is extremely obvious. I was just pointing out that there is always a guaranteed techchase from a drag down Uair. Saying they are nasty doesn’t show you that you knew this. If you did, no worries.
 
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:ultwolf: is one of the oddest characters to judge right now in the Meta. For every great strength he has another seemingly big flaw. He has an amazing neutral game with having one of the best projectiles in the game, has really good normals and other tools. I am not sure who mentioned it here but he can almost feel like Smash 4 :ultsheik: with how dominating he can be in neutral. BUT he lacks reliable kill-confrims and does not have a good recovery or offstage game which could be the ruination of most other characters. Wolf is a character of contrasts, makes sense since he kinda feels to me like some bizzare fusion of the other spacies (:ultfox::ultfalco:) and the standard FE swordies (:ultmarth::ultlucina::ultroy::ultchrom:)
 
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Omnos

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Curious, who did he feel the need to switch off of Wolf for, I know his Wolf has been pretty amazing. Did the Ike actually do work or was it like MKLeo's Richter where they were used but didn't win anything so it doesn't really count?
He switches to Ike vs the space animals. Not sure why.
 

Rizen

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:ultwolf: is one of the oddest characters to judge right now in the Meta. For every great strength he has another seemingly big flaw. He has an amazing neutral game with having one of the best projectiles in the game, has really good normals and other tools. I am not sure who mentioned it here but he can almost feel like Smash 4 :ultsheik: with how dominating he can be in neutral. BUT he lacks reliable kill-confrims and does not have a good recovery or offstage game which could be the ruination of most other characters. Wolf is a character of contrasts, makes sense since he kinda feels to me like some bizzare fusion of the other spacies (:ultfox::ultfalco:) and the standard FE swordies (:ultmarth::ultlucina::ultroy::ultchrom:)
Like I said, I think :ultwolf:'s results will fall as people get better at not being hit by kill moves and stop running into blaster. He still is really good. Wolf's recovery isn't terrible, just mediocre. :ultfox: on the other hand has real staying power. His burst and CQC games are enough to keep up with anyone and upB has a surprisingly long recovery.
:ultness: is an interesting character. He might drop a little but he may also rise. Ness' spacing game, harassment with PKThunder/fire, and kill potential are all great. Maybe swordies will learn to shut him down afterall but maybe not. Either way he's somewhere in high tier imo.
 
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MG_3989

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Like I said, I think :ultwolf:'s results will fall as people get better at not being hit by kill moves and stop running into blaster. He still is really good. Wolf's recovery isn't terrible, just mediocre. :ultfox: on the other hand has real staying power. His burst and CQC games are enough to keep up with anyone and upB has a surprisingly long recovery.
:ultness: is an interesting character. He might drop a little but he may also rise. Ness' spacing game, harassment with PKThunder/fire, and kill potential are all great. Maybe swordies will learn to shut him down afterall but maybe not. Either way he's somewhere in high tier imo.
Ness is strange because the good Ness’s are really really good and take home a ton of tournaments but you barely see anyone play him outside the Ness players that you already know are dominant with the character. I saw somebody make a “unbiased” tier list based on tournament results with some formula so far and Ness actually took 3rd but there’s no way he’s the third best character in the game. What I’d really like to see is more people pick up Ness and see if his results increase or decrease based on that. I mean I’m almost positive his results will decrease from where they are now but I believe he’ll stay solidly high tier. He doesn’t seem to have any awful matchups with any top or high tier characters and he’s an extremely dangerous character with all of the tools he needs to succeed and his recovery weaknesses are overblown especially when people learn how to use his air dodge in conjunction with his psi magnet better. He has one of the best double jumps in the game and while you can gimp PKT2 it can easily take a stock off or trade stocks with somebody trying to edgeguard it. He’s a very unique character which I think makes him somewhat polarizing
 
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Does anyone think :ultyoshi: is being pretty slept on. He has gotten some great buffs from Smash 4, he may of lost his jab lock but he has gotten many other kill confrims and is able to follow and his air shennanigans can get pretty wild. Yes swords are a bit of a problem for him. But I think he does well vs other strong characters
 
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Rizen

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Does anyone think :ultyoshi: is being pretty slept on. He has gotten some great buffs from Smash 4, he may of lost his jab lock but he has gotten many other kill confrims and is able to follow and chase opponents in the air to a crazy degree His issue is that swords give him a bit of trouble. But I think he does well vs other strong characters
Yoshi's kind of got the same thing as Wario going on; he's an extremely mobile heavyweight who's relatively small with poor reach. He doesn't have crazy fart setups but could end up being pretty good, especially if people use him aggressively offstage.
 
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Is puff good? Or am i imagining thing? (Since zero recently played her in his stream)
Jigglypuff is much better than in Smash 4, but it seems likely she'll struggle vs swords still (and many swords are top tier). For higher levels of play, I doubt we're going to see many Jigglypuff mains, but for lower levels of plays she might be a decent enough character (and she's fun to play in friendlies).
 
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I haven't seen much discussion of ZSS in this thread, so I am wondering: are people considering her dthrow nerf and shorter zair/side B recovery to be too much a loss for her viability, or is she flying under the radar? I see Choco placed well with her at the recent Japan tourney, so something must be working. In addition, she still like she can get away with a lot of her early stock sealing shenanigans (I still need to train more before I can consistently pull it off in real games, but it still feels intact).
 
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I haven't seen much discussion of ZSS in this thread, so I am wondering: are people considering her dthrow nerf and shorter zair/side B recovery to be too much a loss for her viability, or is she flying under the radar? I see Choco placed well with her at the recent Japan tourney, so something must be working. In addition, she still like she can get away with a lot of her early stock sealing shenanigans (I still need to train more before I can consistently pull it off in real games, but it still feels intact).
ZSS got nerfed from SSB4, but retains quite a bit of strengths and even got some new powerful tools with her (such as her footstool Flip Jump's new combo game and her newly buffed up smash). Although harder to setup/do, she still has some latter combo shenanigans. It isn't Mario levels of easy to get, but the reward is there.

Marss and Choco are definitely putting in the work. Nairo is currently focusing on Palutena, but he also putting in the effort for the character.
 

MG_3989

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You guys think Ike is worth learning as a secondary to my Ness (I think a swordsman/woman would be a good idea to have in my pocket) or do you think I should stick with Lucina or Marth incase of an Ike nerf? I like how Ike plays in this game and he’s really easy to learn as a secondary and I won’t have to put a ton of time into him but I’m not trying to learn a character as a secondary that’s gonna get nerfed. What do you guys see happening with Ike in the future?
 

trickroom

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Heracr055 Heracr055 I'm still fully trying to figure out what ZSS' gameplan is. How does she get kills? What are her go-to neutral options? Based on Yakara :ultfox: vs him she seems really, really reliant on SH nair and on extending juggles into kills/edgeguards.

I also would like to agree with the sentiment that Libya is a land of contrasts
Wolf is a character of contrasts
This character seems really good at some points and others not so much. Insane wildcard, can't wait to see the performances of Zackray and Wolf players in general at Genesis and in the coming year.
 
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Umebura SP 2 is over. Here are the results:

1st: Zackray:ultwolf::ultike:
2nd: Shuton:ultolimar:
3rd: HIKARU:ultdk::ultwario:
4th: Yakara:ultfox:
5th: ZAKI:ultkingdedede:
5th: Gackt:ultness:
7th: Lea:ultgreninja:
7th: Etsuji:ultlucina:
9th: Tsu:ultlucario::ultken::ultisabelle:
9th: Nietono:ultpichu:
9th: Umeki:ultdaisy:
9th: Choco:ultzss:
13th: Yamanyon:ultzss:
13th: Kuro:ultpit::ultdarkpit:
13th: Paseriman:ultfox:
13th: Brood:ultrichter:


Other notable placements:
17th: Shu:ultwolf::ultsnake:
17th: Raito:ultduckhunt::ultinkling:
17th: taranito:ultness:
17th: kameme:ultmegaman:
25th: T:ultlink::ultyounglink:
25th: Eim:ultwolf:
25th: kept:ultvillager::ultisabelle:
33rd: Ke-ya:ultrobin::ultcorrin:
33rd: shky:ultzss:
33rd: ikep:ultinkling::4miisword:
33rd: RAIN:ultchrom:
 
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You guys think Ike is worth learning as a secondary to my Ness (I think a swordsman/woman would be a good idea to have in my pocket) or do you think I should stick with Lucina or Marth incase of an Ike nerf? I like how Ike plays in this game and he’s really easy to learn as a secondary and I won’t have to put a ton of time into him but I’m not trying to learn a character as a secondary that’s gonna get nerfed. What do you guys see happening with Ike in the future?
Absolutely. Swordies are in in this game and he's a relatively safe investment as far as nerfs go with how much attention Peaches, Inkling, Olimar and Chrom are getting.
 

MG_3989

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Absolutely. Swordies are in in this game and he's a relatively safe investment as far as nerfs go with how much attention Peaches, Inkling, Olimar and Chrom are getting.
Yeah that’s what I was thinking. I don’t switch off Ness often but since swordies are so good in this game I feel like it’s a good idea to have one in my pocket and Ike feels like a solid option. It’s between him and marthcina but I think I like Ike better in this game. I was just worried about nerfs after the whole nair debate and didn’t know if Lucina would be a better character to invest my time into
 
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