Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Nah]

Where in the hell is anyone saying Link is better than Snake?!

scroll up to see MKLeo’s tier list

 

[Rizen]

Where in the hell is anyone saying Link is better than Snake?! Why are we even comparing Link to Snake? They have zero similarities other than both of then using remote explosives. It's as stupid as stating that Lucario took Mewtwo's spot in Brawl and Smash 4.

Try reading back a page. Snake has been compared to Link for a long time. In brawl there was a meme "Snake is the good Link". They're both trap based zoners. It's like comparing the heavyweights. Picking a juxtaposition is one method of discussing difference in the meta; it's not stupid.

 

[Aaron1997]

I've been seeing Duck Hunt low on a lot of lists, and the extent of what I know for changes to him is "sideB combos/kill confirms now" and "smash attacks connect reliably". Am I missing something, or is it just a case of him not being on people's radars yet?

It's Smash 4 all over again. He's bottom tier till someone proves them wrong. Raito might be in a lul right now but his inkling is not doing any better. You3 Beat Abadango at the last Sumabato so its not like there's no hope for him. Most of the other DH players are still playing him. Brood is the only one that dropped him. DH players are having to relearn how to use there tools again because some of Can's physics was changed. Also it might just be that people think he's been Power creep by Snake even though he has stuff over Snake (Better Aerial's/Mobility).

 

[Ajani]

Where in the hell is anyone saying Link is better than Snake?! Why are we even comparing Link to Snake? They have zero similarities other than both of then using remote explosives. It's as stupid as stating that Lucario took Mewtwo's spot in Brawl and Smash 4.

Because its tier placements and he has trying to.figure out why link would be placed above snake

 

[J0eyboi]

I don't think links necessarily that good but cherrypicking his frame data isn't necessarily the best argument to bring him down. In spite of having a frame 8 jab he has a way better cqc on the ground than the likes of Samus because his jab actually does its job while samus's is unsafe for hitting the damn in spite of her having a frame 3 jab she has absolutely awful cqc options because of it.

Samus has a frame 6 dtilt. Also, you're comparing garbage to garbage here. Link has among the worst CQC options in the game, up there with Lucario, Ganon, Bayo, and Palutena. That doesn't automatically make him bad, but it's a pretty big issue.

You're completely ignoring my points about Snake being better than Link -bomb stuff. How is Link better than Snake? He is slower, worse weight, worse trapping, worse kill options and worse recovery.

The main one would be generally better buttons, especially in the air. Snake has a couple really good moves, like dash attack and Utilt, but the rest of his kit is pretty lackluster for neutral purposes, forcing him to rely quite a bit more on his projectiles than Link does.

Also, I wouldn't say Snake has a better recovery than Link. Link's recovery has a lot of really big hitboxes attached to it, making it really hard to contest if mixed up well. Link also takes less damage from blowing himself up.

Edit: On the subject, Dabuz apparently agrees with Leo.

Judge me harshly pic.twitter.com/EMA0TNKGEd

— Liquid | Dabuz (@DabuzSenpai) January 11, 2019

 

[zeldasmash]

Where in the hell is anyone saying Link is better than Snake?! Why are we even comparing Link to Snake? They have zero similarities other than both of then using remote explosives. It's as stupid as stating that Lucario took Mewtwo's spot in Brawl and Smash 4.

1. These two have been compared ever since Brawl, where Snake and Link had very similar game plans (both were zoners/trappers, both had DACUS, both had good momentum cancelling). Only thing is Snake was good, Link was crap. It's no different here, only Link has gotten significantly better and because of Remote Bombs stage control and recovery, plays even more like Snake.

2. MKLeo posted his tier list where Link is in the Top 5 while Snake is below him. While I am more optimistic with Link and think is very good, putting him in Top 5 is.....stretching it. As someone who plays both Link and Snake, Snake is just better in every regard. That isn't to say Link isn't good in what he does, it's just that Snake does it better. Recovers better, survives longer, hits about as hard if not harder while having quicker mobility and frame data to boot. While frame data isn't everything, Snake is just better fundamentally.

EDIT: Now we have Dabuz who thinks Link is Top 3......

....I must be living in a crazy world where professional players think Link is top tier in a Smash game...

Also, seeing Ganondorf above Falcon is kinda surreal. Though early Melee and Brawl had Ganondorf about Falcon as well, so who knows.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Me thinks the standard "but they have so much potential" problem is showing up in people's tier lists already. Only reasoning I can see for Link (and Shulk) being placed so crazy high. They obviously have some tools, results do noooot support either of them being top 5 let alone top 3.

I mean I know it's mad early and results this early on don't carry a heavy amount of weight, but sheesh I swear people just look for characters with high amounts of "potential" because they're "complicated" and toss them into top tier, with the exact location in top tier determined by dartboard.

 

[Justin Allen Goldschmidt]

I'm personally feeling the Link as a high tier *in the current meta* opinion. Right now, dude is great. He keeps people out decently well, kills somewhat early on a read or with a good OOS up smash or spin attack, has a longer sword now, a real grab..... I agree that currently, he's pretty darn great. No clue if he'll hold up as spacing and positioning gets better and better, but we'll see. No use getting upset about it for me anyways.

EDIT: I also think his edge-guarding is surprisingly good this time around, with patience and planning. He has pretty bad YOLO options though.

 

[NotLiquid]

Gonna be frank here

Japanese tier lists are a good reminder of how strong personal bias can be (not saying that other regions can't be too). At this point results are skewed towards popularity and people aren't playing the game properly so they look off too (although probably the closest to accurate with some glaring errors). If I posted a tier list there's no reason it would be any better. The game's too fresh and seemingly well balanced. The best anyone can do is speculation currently.

"Link is Top 5" being a sentiment makes me convinced this is no different for our region here. Not that he isn't the best he's potentially ever been for a Smash game and finally a rounded character, but I feel like the Salem kool-aid is sort of getting to people something fierce right now.

 

[Kellojolly]

Me thinks the standard "but they have so much potential" problem is showing up in people's tier lists already. Only reasoning I can see for Link (and Shulk) being placed so crazy high. They obviously have some tools, results do noooot support either of them being top 5 let alone top 3.

I mean I know it's mad early and results this early on don't carry a heavy amount of weight, but sheesh I swear people just look for characters with high amounts of "potential" because they're "complicated" and toss them into top tier, with the exact location in top tier determined by dartboard.

I agree even though the game is still very new for the tournament results to hold much say. I don’t really think either link or shulk are top tier but they probably know something I don’t.

 

[Rizen]

2. MKLeo posted his tier list where Link is in the Top 5 while Snake is below him. While I am more optimistic with Link and think is very good, putting him in Top 5 is.....stretching it. As someone who plays both Link and Snake, Snake is just better in every regard. That isn't to say Link isn't good in what he does, it's just that Snake does it better. Recovers better, survives longer, hits about as hard if not harder while having quicker mobility and frame data to boot. While frame data isn't everything, Snake is just better fundamentally.

EDIT: Now we have Dabuz who thinks Link is Top 3......

....I must be living in a crazy world where professional players think Link is top tier in a Smash game...

Also, seeing Ganondorf above Falcon is kinda surreal. Though early Melee and Brawl had Ganondorf about Falcon as well, so who knows.

I feel like the Salem kool-aid is sort of getting to people something fierce right now.

Thank you.

Young Link has better results than Link does but no one's calling him top 5.

 

[Justin Allen Goldschmidt]

I agree even though the game is still very new for the tournament results to hold much say. I don’t really think either link or shulk are top tier but they probably know something I don’t.

Yeah, though I do find Link great, I think "top-tier" is sitting a little larger than it should in general right now, with maybe just Peach/Daisy as the only S-tier threats in my eyes. However, I do think high tier is pretty close to being the biggest it's ever been in a Smash game by percentage of the cast. A ton of characters legitimately feel like they can just win in this game, barring terrible matchups.

 

[zeldasmash]

Thank you.

Young Link has better results than Link does but no one's calling him top 5.

I think all 3 Link's are really good in this game and can fall under high tier.

But I think Link's top tier placement comes from theory-crafting/potential. Granted Link has been getting results, but Young Link has better results so far and Snake is a better character at the moment.

However, I'm not gonna lie, I kinda got giddy when I saw Link in the Top 5 and the Top 3 of professional player tier lists. It's kinda like what Cloud said in his Smash 4 reveal: "Never thought I'd see the day".

 

[MG_3989]

I mean these pros are playing the game at a higher level than us, playing friendlies against other pros and probably messing around with a lot of characters and match ups. They may be putting more weight into that than tournament results right now. That said any tier list that a single pro makes will reek of personal bias and they may rank a character higher because they have a hard time against them and lower because they know how to deal with their kit. I still think we have to take all these tier lists with a grain of salt and not let it effect who we’re currently playing and trying to master, no matter if the pros are putting them in top tier or low tier

I mean remember how close Hbox’s Jiggs was to beating Salem’s Link (it is Hbox, but still)? Tier lists aren’t going to be reliable at this point

 

[NotLiquid]

To be honest I can see why Dabuz puts Link as Top 5.

It's a matchup that seems exceptionally frustrating for Olimar, between the generous disjoints and projectile abuse it's likely not that fun for a character with adequate mobility. That likely colors off on his impressions.

 

[Foie]

I think we're taking the tier lists a bit serious here... They are always total crap shoots this early in the game, especially an individual's "I just threw this together because of twitch subs lul" tier list. Leo's reasoning for Link above Snake could be incredibly silly.

We need to remember that there will be dominant characters on top and crap characters clearly on the bottom (ahem ), but it will take at least a year before we get a halfway decent idea of what the breakdown is.

 

[trickroom]

I've been seeing Duck Hunt low on a lot of lists, and the extent of what I know for changes to him is "sideB combos/kill confirms now" and "smash attacks connect reliably". Am I missing something, or is it just a case of him not being on people's radars yet?

In a similar vein I'm always surprised to see lower than the other Links, but I guess I haven't seen much of yet and has had a more explosive showing thus far.

It's absolutely Duck Hunt not being on people's radars. The character has direct upgrades in multiple areas of the kit with no downsides, when he was already a perfectly strong high/mid tier going off of Sm4sh results.

 

[bc1910]

Does anyone have any thoughts on Mii Swordfighter? Was messing around with him today and was really impressed, and I’m saying that as someone who’s always found the Miis mind-numbingy boring.

The Gale Strike (tornado) into Hero’s Spin confirm tears apart anyone who doesn’t know the MU obviously. I’m strongly expecting that to get nerfed since a lot of people are abusing it online, but it’s not hard to adapt and shield the projectile since it’s so laggy. When fighting good players Gale Strike is useful as a landing trap or edgeguard, or potentially as a punish tool against overzealous swordies whiffing attacks. Hero’s Spin in general seems to be the Helicopter Kick of Ultimate with huge knockback and the ability to carry opponents.

Outside of the confirm Mii Sword has some powerful normals, a decent ground game and a great projectile in Chakram. I’m not sure why exactly he works, he just kinda does. His shuriken is amazing as well, it will certainly be the go to if he loses the confirm.

 

[KakuCP9]

I found this guy's Elite smash vids and he has a curious bit of tech

By b-reversing and then jumping out of the neutral-b attack, you can get an extremely dirty edge-guarding mix-up where most would think you would just fall on them and throw out aerials, but instead fake them out and whack 'em with a b-air or something. The new charge mechanic can help with recovery mix-ups as well since you can charge your attack and if they respect it, you come back easy peasy. If they want to challenge you, throw the attack (unless you're DK). While neither are infallible, both are valuable tools to enhance your offstage game.

 

[Lavani]

I found this guy's Elite smash vids and he has a curious bit of tech

By b-reversing and then jumping out of the neutral-b attack, you can get an extremely dirty edge-guarding mix-up where most would think you would just fall on them and throw out aerials, but instead fake them out and whack 'em with a b-air or something. The new charge mechanic help with recovery mix-ups as well since you can charge your attack and if they respect it, you come back easy peasy. If they want to challenge you, throw the attack (unless you're DK). While neither are infallible, both are valuable tools to enhance your offstage game.

I noticed this used in the Tsu vs Lea set that was linked previously as well, with Lucario having the added benefit of being able to use the charge itself to confirm aerials offstage oh god

Just being able to cancel charge with anything midair was a welcome change on its own, but derivative applications like this are sweet, sweet icing. Even without the B-reverse shenanigans, being able to threaten a charge shot while falling then canceling into a rising aerial is great for pressure on its own.

As an aside, Samus could only turnaround her Charge Shot in 4, but can only B-Reverse it in Ultimate. I believe all other charge projectiles can be fully wavebounced, including Mii Gunner's Charge Shot.

 

[Rizen]

To be honest I can see why Dabuz puts Link as Top 5.

It's a matchup that seems exceptionally frustrating for Olimar, between the generous disjoints and projectile abuse it's likely not that fun for a character with adequate mobility. That likely colors off on his impressions.

That MU's a pain for Link too. IMO Olimar's just a pain in the butt for everyone. His damage building is crazy and pikmin pluck is only 8 frames iirc.

 

[Tri Knight]

Samus has a frame 6 dtilt. Also, you're comparing garbage to garbage here. Link has among the worst CQC options in the game, up there with Lucario, Ganon, Bayo, and Palutena. That doesn't automatically make him bad, but it's a pretty big issue.



The main one would be generally better buttons, especially in the air. Snake has a couple really good moves, like dash attack and Utilt, but the rest of his kit is pretty lackluster for neutral purposes, forcing him to rely quite a bit more on his projectiles than Link does.

Also, I wouldn't say Snake has a better recovery than Link. Link's recovery has a lot of really big hitboxes attached to it, making it really hard to contest if mixed up well. Link also takes less damage from blowing himself up.

Edit: On the subject, Dabuz apparently agrees with Leo.

Judge me harshly pic.twitter.com/EMA0TNKGEd

— Liquid | Dabuz (@DabuzSenpai) January 11, 2019

Holy ****, Link top 3 though? Idk about that. I'd love to believe it though.

EDIT: I also think his edge-guarding is surprisingly good this time around, with patience and planning. He has pretty bad YOLO options though.

Link's edgeguarding has always been great. It's just even better now. Like to the point where I'm thinking it'll be ridiculous to get by his edgeguarding once people push the offstage game more. As much as I miss the old bombs, these things are god tier offstage.

 

[Omastar]

Maybe all y'all who think Link doesn't belong in top tier need to git gud 4Head

 

[Captain Sa10]

I found this guy's Elite smash vids and he has a curious bit of tech

By b-reversing and then jumping out of the neutral-b attack, you can get an extremely dirty edge-guarding mix-up where most would think you would just fall on them and throw out aerials, but instead fake them out and whack 'em with a b-air or something. The new charge mechanic can help with recovery mix-ups as well since you can charge your attack and if they respect it, you come back easy peasy. If they want to challenge you, throw the attack (unless you're DK). While neither are infallible, both are valuable tools to enhance your offstage game.

Nice! Seeing tech like this is the reason all these tier talks/list are always and shall be silly to discuss this early(none of them have enough concrete data let alone several get changed on a daily because something new comes out). The debacle last page about Link, and Ness proves that no one really knows what’s where.

There are several characters that I feel when given some more time will prove their competitive viability and others will drop(only slightly for most).

Sidenote on Ness- Anyone can go to training mode and see just how strong Ness is. Hell, PK Fire alone is disgusting; the move is legit

 

[Rizen]

Maybe all y'all who think Link doesn't belong in top tier need to git gud 4Head

That's odd, I don't remember stumbling into the youtube comments

 

[fozzy fosbourne]

Meanwhile, in Japan..

Sumamate season 0.5 is officially over!
1 YB (Dark Samus, 2155)
1 Ron (Yoshi, 2155)
3 Shuton (Olimar, 2112)
4 Lea (Greninja, 2086)
5 KEN (Sonic, 2084)
6 Choco (ZSS. 2044)
7 Mutama (Bowser Jr, 2028)
8 y0cChaN (Greninja, 2017)
9 Ayapero (Palutena, 2015)
10 akasa (Cloud, 2014)

— Justin (juddy96) (@juddy_96) January 11, 2019

No Pichus, Foxen, Peaches, Fire Emblems. Dark Samus, Yoshi, Greninja, Sonic, ZSS, Bowser Jr(!), and a bunch of various Links at runner up. Pretty interesting, I wonder how the competition in this league compares to elswhere.

 

[Justin Allen Goldschmidt]

Meanwhile, in Japan..

Sumamate season 0.5 is officially over!
1 YB (Dark Samus, 2155)
1 Ron (Yoshi, 2155)
3 Shuton (Olimar, 2112)
4 Lea (Greninja, 2086)
5 KEN (Sonic, 2084)
6 Choco (ZSS. 2044)
7 Mutama (Bowser Jr, 2028)
8 y0cChaN (Greninja, 2017)
9 Ayapero (Palutena, 2015)
10 akasa (Cloud, 2014)

— Justin (juddy96) (@juddy_96) January 11, 2019

No Pichus, Foxen, Peaches, Fire Emblems. Dark Samus, Yoshi, Greninja, Sonic, ZSS, Bowser Jr(!), and a bunch of various Links at runner up. Pretty interesting, I wonder how the competition in this league compares to elswhere.

This was online, right?

 

[Minordeth]

Wolf's blaster ties his neutral together and in the MU's where it doesn't work, his game plan falls apart. He does not like the Snake MU. Crawling under lasers, using grenades to counter juggles and trade...it's tough. Especially since Wolf has very few true combos (up throw at low percents, fair into fair until mid) so he will be trading a lot. If Wolf ever has to recover from below the ledge, Nikita should hit him every time. Wolf lacks real KO set-ups aside from iffy nair tech-chases which aren't nearly as good as Fox's since he lacks the latter's run speed, and he can't go very deep to edge-guard so Snake will live to 150% easily. I imagine this is Wolf's worst match-up.

What? No. This is theory crafting without actually seeing how different things interact.

- Snake can indeed duck under blaster, but blaster stalls grenades, making them far less useful.

- Wolf’s up-B actually goes through Nikita

- Wolf juggles Snake for days, because the latter has issues landing

- Wolf’s tech chases are really not that hard to get, and Nair can directly lead to Dsmash, skipping the jab lock

- Wolf has far more kill set ups than just Nair tech chases. He can kill, day, Peach with true Dthrow > extremely early, or convert Fair > AC RAR Bair/FH Nair to kill of the sides off of one of his safest moves

- Snake’s CQC buttons are strong, but Wolf has a mixture of longer ranger attacks (Ftilt) and quicker, short range options (jab, dtilt, Utilt)

Pichu is also a suspect MU. Wolf does not like short characters, KO'ing becomes even harder when he has to time bair so strictly, and Pichu can murder any attempts with f tilt. Though not as scary as Nikita, t jolt is still very difficult for a recovering Wolf and is arguably even better than blaster. Being a space animal without a frame 3-4 aerial leaves him with nothing but air dodge mashing to try and escape low percent combos; Pichu should always be able to take Wolf from 0-40 at least off a grab or up tilt, even more on platform stages.

Pikachu is more manageable because he's slower, a bit taller, and lacks that f tilt.

The rats are not particularly fun, but it can be heavily stage dependent. Also, Pichu is outranged by Wolf’s Ftilt, and dash-back Ftilt is pretty clutch, considering that Pichu is not terribly fast, and has to actually get in.

Wolf isn't shaping up to be very good vs the current meta characters. I feel he will be similar to Brawl D3 in shutting down many characters below him but struggling vs the top-tiers.

The only top tiers wolf may be disadvantaged against are Palu and the rats. He does fine against say, the swordies, Snake, Peach/Daisy, and yes, Inkling.

Meanwhile, in Japan..

Sumamate season 0.5 is officially over!
1 YB (Dark Samus, 2155)
1 Ron (Yoshi, 2155)
3 Shuton (Olimar, 2112)
4 Lea (Greninja, 2086)
5 KEN (Sonic, 2084)
6 Choco (ZSS. 2044)
7 Mutama (Bowser Jr, 2028)
8 y0cChaN (Greninja, 2017)
9 Ayapero (Palutena, 2015)
10 akasa (Cloud, 2014)

— Justin (juddy96) (@juddy_96) January 11, 2019

No Pichus, Foxen, Peaches, Fire Emblems. Dark Samus, Yoshi, Greninja, Sonic, ZSS, Bowser Jr(!), and a bunch of various Links at runner up. Pretty interesting, I wonder how the competition in this league compares to elswhere.

Pretty sure this is online, man. Not that YB isn’t extremely good, but AFAIK, he hasn’t shown up to an offline tournament yet. His Dark Samus is gross, though.

 

[MapleBeasts]

Holy ****, Link top 3 though? Idk about that. I'd love to believe it though.


Link's edgeguarding has always been great. It's just even better now. Like to the point where I'm thinking it'll be ridiculous to get by his edgeguarding once people push the offstage game more. As much as I miss the old bombs, these things are god tier offstage.

Remote bombs are indeed awesome. Having that tool that acts as a means of stage control, edge guarding, ledge trapping and sets up approaches is so useful and has really elevated his advantage state to being amongst the best in the game imo. I haven't even gotten to how good the bomb is in neutral as the projectile and active hit box off of bounces sets can force shields and combo into other moves. It's a strong contender for the most diverse move in the game imo. I think if you're going based purely on potential Link might be top 5 in the future. It's hard to say with how strong a good portion of the cast is and how undeveloped the meta is.

 

[Omastar]

That's odd, I don't remember stumbling into the youtube comments

Thats more a twitch comment, nice try though.

Also sorry to those I have offended with my comments. Link is a great character who has plenty of kill power and his bombs off stage are ridiculous. As bomb play and off stage play are optimized I can see the character being top tier. I agree that potential alone shouldn't push you a tier or two, but I also don't understand why using potential as a factor is a bad thing. I understand Smash 4 Shulk had a lot of "potential", but some things just don't live up to it and that is completely ok. Most people on here from what I have seen agree that he is at least high tier with a ton of potential. When people believe something has potential they have plenty of incentive to see it achieved. That can only lead to the benefit of a character in this case because that means the meta is being pushed and ultimately becoming more enjoyable for viewers and players alike.

Hopefully that was enough content and I don't get another infraction, thanks.

 

[Mister M]

Maybe I missed a page of discussion but I'm having trouble understand the percieved power gap between lucina and Marth.

Can I be enlightened? Are people having trouble spacing tippers in a faster paced meta? Is it some exclusive kill confirm?

 

[Rocketjay8]

Maybe I missed a page of discussion but I'm having trouble understand the percieved power gap between lucina and Marth.

Can I be enlightened? Are people having trouble spacing tippers in a faster paced meta? Is it some exclusive kill confirm?

You're right on the nose. Lucina seems to have less trouble thanks to her balanced blade and for the fact that she has less problems with fast characters with small hitboxes that get all up in her face. I do think that eventually, Marth will rise on the tier lists once players adjust to the speed of the game. Melee is an incredibly fast-paced game and Marth had no troubles with getting on the high tier train.

 

[Dbap]

I think my boy has the greatest discrepancy’s throughout these tier lists, I mean he goes high tier to bottom 5 all the time. Personally I think he has a very very high skill cap with his tech and most importantly his ability to edge guard. IMO he can edgeguard better than any other character (long long recovery, fair, 2 spikes, offstage pk snipes, pk freeze, magnet stall). All that comes with the fun tax of getting bodied on stage though of course. I frequently get destroyed all match and win from janky low percent kills.

Do you guys think Lucas has a place in the meta with his weird niche or will his inconsistency stop his placings? Also fellow Lucas mains do you also force opponents offstage asap or do you give in to neutral?

 

[Rhus]

I think my boy has the greatest discrepancy’s throughout these tier lists, I mean he goes high tier to bottom 5 all the time. Personally I think he has a very very high skill cap with his tech and most importantly his ability to edge guard. IMO he can edgeguard better than any other character (long long recovery, fair, 2 spikes, offstage pk snipes, pk freeze, magnet stall). All that comes with the fun tax of getting bodied on stage though of course. I frequently get destroyed all match and win from janky low percent kills.

Do you guys think Lucas has a place in the meta with his weird niche or will his inconsistency stop his placings? Also fellow Lucas mains do you also force opponents offstage asap or do you give in to neutral?

Somewhat related - I have never fully understood Lucas' gameplan.

I am a huge Mother fan and have played through Mother 3 and all that. I love the character. But for the life of me, I just cannot figure out what Lucas' central strategy is.

He seems like a zoner/spacing hybrid but has tools that only function adequately for both. In Sm4sh he was definitely carried by his throw game but now he's here with worse throws, better specials, and faster standard attacks and I still don't know how Lucas is supposed to use them optimally. His attacks have enough range to play keep away, but are often simply not supplemented with big enough hitboxes to keep faster characters at bay. Lucas' projectiles are very much a mid-range endeavor, which opens him to be closed on very quickly so he has to play very sparingly. His combo game as far as I know is average at best, but he certainly has strong edgeguards.

I assume one reason for Lucas's lack of representation would be his somewhat unintuitive moveset.

 

[Dbap]

Somewhat related - I have never fully understood Lucas' gameplan.

I am a huge Mother fan and have played through Mother 3 and all that. I love the character. But for the life of me, I just cannot figure out what Lucas' central strategy is.

He seems like a zoner/spacing hybrid but has tools that only function adequately for both. In Sm4sh he was definitely carried by his throw game but now he's here with worse throws, better specials, and faster standard attacks and I still don't know how Lucas is supposed to use them optimally. His attacks have enough range to play keep away, but are often simply not supplemented with big enough hitboxes to keep faster characters at bay. Lucas' projectiles are very much a mid-range endeavor, which opens him to be closed on very quickly so he has to play very sparingly. His combo game as far as I know is average at best, but he certainly has strong edgeguards.

I assume one reason for Lucas's lack of representation would be his somewhat unintuitive moveset.

Yeah exactly.

Lucas doesn’t really have an advantage state like other characters but he can take whole stocks offstage, kind of a weird trade off. You’re right about the combos his bnbs were taken, he’s got a few strings and some weird kill confirms off stage spikes but no real damage combos any better than Uair>Uair kinda thing, no great consistent damage buildup.

Sometimes if I’m playing against a char with a weak recovery I’ll just throw them offstage at zero and give it a go lol.

 

[Justin Allen Goldschmidt]

Yeah exactly.

Lucas doesn’t really have an advantage state like other characters but he can take whole stocks offstage, kind of a weird trade off. You’re right about the combos his bnbs were taken, he’s got a few strings and some weird kill confirms off stage spikes but no real damage combos any better than Uair>Uair kinda thing, no great consistent damage buildup.

Sometimes if I’m playing against a char with a weak recovery I’ll just throw them offstage at zero and give it a go lol.

Honestly that's the best way to practice gimping. Go for it literally every chance you get. You'll eventually get great aim, better timing, and learn to read how the opponent is going to try to avoid it. If the rest of your skillset is good, then grind out the next thing.

 

[Iridium]

Uh, so Zackray won the second Umebura SP, mostly . And I think he's going to GENESIS as well, so I'm looking forward to that. Results can be seen right here. A bit of some strange placements, like Aba getting 49th, and takera getting 65th. Kuro still sticking with to great success, and then Zaki is just high up there.

I think T actually was using more, along with , but lost to Shuton and Paseriman before top 24.

 

[Nobie]

I've suspected it since the start of the game, but I think Abadango's loss to double Yoshi is the newest piece of evidence than Inklings have a bad matchup against the green dinosaur.

Neutral B is a complete non-factor in the match. Yoshi's double jump armor messes up all sorts of things, and his general slipperiness gives Inklings a hard time.

If Inklings are top tier as everyone predicts, I think there's a strong chance you'll see Yoshi thrive in the meta as well. Some already think he's top tier, but being a good counterpick against potentially one of the best characters in the game is a big deal.

Meanwhile, Sol got 1st going all Little Mac at a 161-man local.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

It's just a local, and Sol has a ton of experience with his character that his opponents might not, but it's also like 4x the size of a typical Smash 4 local, AND Sol still thinks Mac is one of the worst characters in the game.

 

[Rran]

Well I'll be damned

 

[williamsga555]

Uh, so Zackray won the second Umebura SP, all . And I think he's going to GENESIS as well, so I'm looking forward to that. Results can be seen right here. A bit of some strange placements, like Aba getting 49th, and takera getting 65th. Kuro still sticking with to great success, and then Zaki is just high up there.

It makes me so happy to see Zaki in a game that supports the character better (at least at the moment, anyway). Such a fantastic competitor. Full D3 bias.