Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

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Diddy Kong

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How do you feel about :ultdiddy:? He looks good but not as good as SSB4 but IDK much about him.
He’s much different now, but still a functional character. He just has a realllll bad disadvantage state now and it’s worse because his air speed is bad and recovery severely worsened as well.

Bananas are not safe on shield anymore and grabs as much riskier, but Diddy can still work with them. F Smash seems to kill earlier, Rocket Barrels also allow for surprise kills, D Tilt U Smash is still a thing, N Air sets up greatly for aerial assaults as well as improved dash attack.

Here’s some footage of a online battle I fought
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OjgpOKVxh4U&feature=youtu.be .

Diddy is more of a evasive punisher, and needs to be played drastically different than before. Requires more thought, planning, and you really gotta aim for the perfect opening now. Luckily it’s easy to bait as Diddy, because hitting him sets up to easy combos so people get greedy often and try risky moves, and Diddy can capitalize on that a lot.

I think he does great vs Chrom honestly.
 
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I think that's exactly my mindset. I already have Roy down as a character, and everything else I need is just practicing fundamentals. I don't think playing Wolf, Falco, Inkling, Ridley, PKMN Trainer, etc. will hurt my Roy game. I've played him in four games now for like 15 years
It probably won't hurt your Roy gameplay. But I doubt whoever you pick up will get to the same level as your Roy. Sometimes I find myself relying on moves that doesn't transition when I swap characters.

I mean I already know Ness like the back of my hand. Of course I don’t know all of his MUs in this game yet but I know him as a character. I haven’t run into any horrendous MUs but I’m still thinking about putting some time into another character just because I think it’ll be good in the long run to have the versitility and I don’t think it’ll damage my game with Ness
I'm not really sure how important it is to be versatile. Learning other characters won't hurt it's important to have depth and understanding of a characters options. This roster is big and the potential of you coming across your worst MU could never happen. Or you play it and win. Like for instance I don't think you need to CP rosalina.

Diddy Kong Diddy Kong not sure what you're trying to show case but that gannon looks really bad looks like you're hust beating on some 9 year old kid
 
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It probably won't hurt your Roy gameplay. But I doubt whoever you pick up will get to the same level as your Roy. Sometimes I find myself relying on moves that doesn't transition when I swap characters.



I'm not really sure how important it is to be versatile. Learning other characters won't hurt it's important to have depth and understanding of a characters options. This roster is big and the potential of you coming across your worst MU could never happen. Or you play it and win. Like for instance I don't think you need to CP rosalina.

Diddy Kong Diddy Kong not sure what you're trying to show case but that gannon looks really bad looks like you're hust beating on some 9 year old kid
You're probably right about none of my other characters being on the same level as my Roy, but I can still get darn good with them, and let's be honest....Roy (and Chrom) has some pretty trashy match-ups. Plus I like to have at least *some* fun when competing.
 
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Nobie

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Thinking about the big Ryu mains exodus to other characters, this comes as no surprise. The Ryu we saw in Smash 4 is not generally how Ryu plays in his own games. He's not a crazy combo character (though everyone has combos), and the doesn't take off massive chunks of health any more than most characters. He's a fundamentals character who has a little bit of everything, similar to Pit or Mario in Smash.

Players like Trela and Locus apparently used Ryu because they liked bullying people with a massive advantage state. That's why they switched to Ridley. Other players talk about how they like the elaborate and powerful combos, and the ability to just go in and start them. That's why some switched to Ken.

In all likelihood, Ken IS the better one, but the Ryu community is basically having to start from square one. Much of their previous knowledge no longer applies. And that's tough for any character's meta.
 
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This is out of the blue but I predict :ultwolf:'s results will drop a little. The reasoning is he doesn't have good kill setups. He has to fish for relatively laggy Bairs, smashes and DAs. The game's new and people are running into a lot more attacks than they will with more experience. Wolf's still a good character but imo he's working off inexperience. Plus he's popular for returning.
I... go back and forth on this. I've said this before, but Wolf seems something like bizarro Smash 4 Sheik. They both excel in neutral, whereas Sheik relied on conditioning through superior frame data and an excellent projectile, Wolf relies on conditioning through quick, strong buttons... and an excellent projectile.

Sheik had kill set ups, as does Wolf, but while Sheik had to play a game against building Rage, Wolf has a somewhat different strategy. Sheik had an amazing disadvantage, which Wolf seemingly trades for strength and longevity. Essentially, as long as he stays patient, the kills will happen.

Wolf requires that a player accept that occasionally their opponent will live to 150% as often as they get an early Dthrow to Flash. He has the tools to stay in control, regardless.
 

KakuCP9

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I... go back and forth on this. I've said this before, but Wolf seems something like bizarro Smash 4 Sheik. They both excel in neutral, whereas Sheik relied on conditioning through superior frame data and an excellent projectile, Wolf relies on conditioning through quick, strong buttons... and an excellent projectile.

Sheik had kill set ups, as does Wolf, but while Sheik had to play a game against building Rage, Wolf has a somewhat different strategy. Sheik had an amazing disadvantage, which Wolf seemingly trades for strength and longevity. Essentially, as long as he stays patient, the kills will happen.

Wolf requires that a player accept that occasionally their opponent will live to 150% as often as they get an early Dthrow to Flash. He has the tools to stay in control, regardless.
I think a closer comparison would be to Melee Marth because both them have a less than ideal disadvantage state and a superb neutral combined with the odd quality of being to destroy you with some weirdo combo/ smash attack at obscenely low percents or never kill you before 150% after the combo window ends (the condition lovingly referred to as Marthritis).
 
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Wolf's blaster ties his neutral together and in the MU's where it doesn't work, his game plan falls apart. He does not like the Snake MU. Crawling under lasers, using grenades to counter juggles and trade...it's tough. Especially since Wolf has very few true combos (up throw at low percents, fair into fair until mid) so he will be trading a lot. If Wolf ever has to recover from below the ledge, Nikita should hit him every time. Wolf lacks real KO set-ups aside from iffy nair tech-chases which aren't nearly as good as Fox's since he lacks the latter's run speed, and he can't go very deep to edge-guard so Snake will live to 150% easily. I imagine this is Wolf's worst match-up.

Pichu is also a suspect MU. Wolf does not like short characters, KO'ing becomes even harder when he has to time bair so strictly, and Pichu can murder any attempts with f tilt. Though not as scary as Nikita, t jolt is still very difficult for a recovering Wolf and is arguably even better than blaster. Being a space animal without a frame 3-4 aerial leaves him with nothing but air dodge mashing to try and escape low percent combos; Pichu should always be able to take Wolf from 0-40 at least off a grab or up tilt, even more on platform stages.

Pikachu is more manageable because he's slower, a bit taller, and lacks that f tilt.

Wolf isn't shaping up to be very good vs the current meta characters. I feel he will be similar to Brawl D3 in shutting down many characters below him but struggling vs the top-tiers.
 
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Wolf's blaster ties his neutral together and in the MU's where it doesn't work, his game plan falls apart. He does not like the Snake MU. Crawling under lasers, using grenades to counter juggles and trade...it's tough. Especially since Wolf has very few true combos (up throw at low percents, fair into fair until mid) so he will be trading a lot. If Wolf ever has to recover from below the ledge, Nikita should hit him every time. Wolf lacks real KO set-ups aside from iffy nair tech-chases which aren't nearly as good as Fox's since he lacks the latter's run speed, and he can't go very deep to edge-guard so Snake will live to 150% easily. I imagine this is Wolf's worst match-up.

Pichu is also a suspect MU. Wolf does not like short characters, KO'ing becomes even harder when he has to time bair so strictly, and Pichu can murder any attempts with f tilt. Though not as scary as Nikita, t jolt is still very difficult for a recovering Wolf and is arguably even better than blaster. Being a space animal without a frame 3-4 aerial leaves him with nothing but air dodge mashing to try and escape low percent combos; Pichu should always be able to take Wolf from 0-40 at least off a grab or up tilt, even more on platform stages.

Pikachu is more manageable because he's slower, a bit taller, and lacks that f tilt.

Wolf isn't shaping up to be very good vs the current meta characters. I feel he will be similar to Brawl D3 in shutting down many characters below him but struggling vs the top-tiers.
I don't know about the Snake MU (I haven't had any trouble online or with friends, but haven't played anyone great), but against Pichu, ftilt kills super early near ledge, and utilt kills super early from beneath a platform. Just don't play from the air, that's typically my game-plan against any short characters when I'm playing as someone without a large sword.
 
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Iridium

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MkLeo's tier list, as of right now. Even I was surprised to see Link so high, although he has noted him being one of the better swordsman. Can't really see that for now, but eh. At least he has stayed more optimistic on the entire list than outright claiming low tiers.

I do very much agree that Ike fits around where he is there at least.
 
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Rizen

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MkLeo's tier list, as of right now. Even I was surprised to see Link so high, although he has noted him being one of the better swordsman, according to him. At least he has stayed more optimistic on the entire list than outright claiming low tiers.

I do very much agree that Ike fits around where he is there at least.
IDK how anyone could think Link's that high when his frame data is comparable to Ganon's. He put him above Snake FFS. I admit Link's getting results but this overrating him is getting out of hand. Snake purely outclasses Link. Link's fastest ground move is grab f6 then jab f8 (slower than Ganon's); Snake has jab f3, Ftilt f4 and Utilt, which kills f6. From ground to air Link's best option is SH Nair for 10 frames total; Snake has SH Dair f6 total. C4 is a better remote bomb that can't be picked up by opponents. Link's upB goes about as far as Ganon's (but he has boomerang and big hitboxes to cover him), Snake's recovery is on of the better ones. Nikita is amazing. There's no way Link is top tier.
 
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Kellojolly

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MkLeo's tier list, as of right now. Even I was surprised to see Link so high, although he has noted him being one of the better swordsman, according to him. At least he has stayed more optimistic on the entire list than outright claiming low tiers.

I do very much agree that Ike fits around where he is there at least.
I am confused and highly skeptical of Link's placement in top 5. I don't even think he's top 10. He's a lot better than I expected but so are all links in this game. I understand Leo playhs against good link players very frequently but I don't think Link is that good. His bomb is great and it creates room for amazing plays in and out of the game (mental game to annoy enemies). But I still don't particularly like Link's frames all that much. Leo always did say he thinks almost any character, barring the "true top tiers", can be considered high tier. So I am not particularly surprised by such large number of rosters in A+. Still, that Link's placement just confuses me.

As for Shulk, I've been seeing lots of Shulks in Japanese and American tournaments recently. And I am not particularly impressed with his performances, outside of his, as always, awesome/unique/versatile monado arts. I usually just see speed and buster at start and smash to finish up opponents, then shield when your % is very high. And I think that becomes somewhat predictable. Of course, I am not a Shulk main or a pro so my opinions may be uninformed.

Tl;dr What are your thoughts on Link's placement on Leo's tier list and Shulk in general as potential top/high tier?
 

Ajani

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IDK how anyone could think Link's that high when his frame data is comparable to Ganon's. He put him above Snake FFS. I admit Link's getting results but this overrating him is getting out of hand. Snake purely outclasses Link. Link's fastest ground move is grab f6 then jab f8 (slower than Ganon's); Snake has jab f3, Ftilt f4 and Utilt, which kills f6. From ground to air Link's best option is SH Nair for 10 frames total; Snake has SH Dair f6 total. C4 is a better remote bomb that can't be picked up by opponents. Link's upB goes about as far as Ganon's (but he has boomerang and big hitboxes to cover him), Snake's recovery is on of the better ones. Nikita is amazing. There's no way Link is top tier.
Weird question, is there any comparison of links hit box?

The way salem used his bombs was so cool which included recovery. That being said nothing really feels top tier with the exception of peach as shes given consistent results along with pro opinions.

I also appreciate him putting characters in b tier at lowest because none of them look insanely out classed
 
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Rizen

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Weird question, is there any comparison of links hit box?

The way salem used his bombs was so cool which included recovery. That being said nothing really feels top tier with the exception of peach as shes given consistent results along with pro opinions.

I also appreciate him putting characters in b tier at lowest because none of them look insanely out classed
Link does have good hitboxes; his sword's about as big as Ike's. Remote bombs help far horizontal recoveries but if Link's hit offstage he is easy to gimp.
 
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IDK how anyone could think Link's that high when his frame data is comparable to Ganon's. He put him above Snake FFS. I admit Link's getting results but this overrating him is getting out of hand. Snake purely outclasses Link. Link's fastest ground move is grab f6 then jab f8 (slower than Ganon's); Snake has jab f3, Ftilt f4 and Utilt, which kills f6. From ground to air Link's best option is SH Nair for 10 frames total; Snake has SH Dair f6 total. C4 is a better remote bomb that can't be picked up by opponents. Link's upB goes about as far as Ganon's (but he has boomerang and big hitboxes to cover him), Snake's recovery is on of the better ones. Nikita is amazing. There's no way Link is top tier.
I think you're taking a bit of of close-minded view on Link. Having bad frame data can hurt, but it isn't necessarily a deal breaker if the character makes up for it in other areas, which Link does thanks to the amazing active frames and range on nearly every one of his attacks.

Also, Remote bombs are definitely better than C4 if you take into account stuff like z-dropping and the way it interacts with Link's projectile's / sword.

I do think top 5 is definitely pushing it for Link, but looking solely at Link's startup frames isn't exactly convincing to prove that he isn't Top 5 (just look at Smash 4 Bayo).
 
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MkLeo's tier list, as of right now. Even I was surprised to see Link so high, although he has noted him being one of the better swordsman. Can't really see that for now, but eh. At least he has stayed more optimistic on the entire list than outright claiming low tiers.

I do very much agree that Ike fits around where he is there at least.
Some questionable placements here and there, such as Ness and the Pits in low tier and Bayo in A tier, but it nothing unusual from a top player.
 

Guido65

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IDK how anyone could think Link's that high when his frame data is comparable to Ganon's. He put him above Snake FFS. I admit Link's getting results but this overrating him is getting out of hand. Snake purely outclasses Link. Link's fastest ground move is grab f6 then jab f8 (slower than Ganon's); Snake has jab f3, Ftilt f4 and Utilt, which kills f6. From ground to air Link's best option is SH Nair for 10 frames total; Snake has SH Dair f6 total. C4 is a better remote bomb that can't be picked up by opponents. Link's upB goes about as far as Ganon's (but he has boomerang and big hitboxes to cover him), Snake's recovery is on of the better ones. Nikita is amazing. There's no way Link is top tier.
I don't think links necessarily that good but cherrypicking his frame data isn't necessarily the best argument to bring him down. In spite of having a frame 8 jab he has a way better cqc on the ground than the likes of Samus because his jab actually does its job while samus's is unsafe for hitting the damn in spite of her having a frame 3 jab she has absolutely awful cqc options because of it.

Edit:he and snake aren't even comparable outside of both being heavyweight zoners.
 
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MG_3989

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I know this may be biased being a Ness main but I really don’t think Ness should be that low. He’s too low on a lot of tier lists I’ve seen. He’s winning tournaments and has had very good results so far and while his recovery is a weakness I don’t think he should be that low based on what he’s shown so far this game. This goes for a lot of tier lists. I believe right now he’s a high tier character
 
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Iridium

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I know this may be biased being a Ness main but I really don’t think Ness should be that low. He’s too low on a lot of tier lists I’ve seen. He’s winning tournaments and has had very good results so far and while his recovery is a weakness I don’t think he should be that low based on what he’s shown so far this game. This goes for a lot of tier lists. I believe right now he’s a high tier character
What do you mean by low? He's not exactly saying he's bad or anything. I'm confused now.
 
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Iridium

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I know you said never mind, but he put Ness outside the top 50. Relative to this tier list that’s low
I was just looking at where he says "Good but meta game is still young". That's all I thought too, only because I haven't seen many Ness mains at large events just yet for clear reasons. Just yet...
 

Omastar

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I know this may be biased being a Ness main but I really don’t think Ness should be that low. He’s too low on a lot of tier lists I’ve seen. He’s winning tournaments and has had very good results so far and while his recovery is a weakness I don’t think he should be that low based on what he’s shown so far this game. This goes for a lot of tier lists. I believe right now he’s a high tier character
He isn't saying Ness is bad, he is saying that the meta for the character is still early and that is 100% correct. Most Ness mains can't even use djc magnet properly for mixups or to retain aggro, close distance etc. The reason why he has such great results is because top Ness players are doing work with for the most part a better character, but the thing is they have always done work. Locals, regionals, and for some players like FOW majors, but that doesn't mean results won't drop in time. People will get better at edge guarding which was always Ness' biggest weakness and most of the high-top tier characters are either swordies or characters that do a great job at edgeguarding.
 

MG_3989

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He isn't saying Ness is bad, he is saying that the meta for the character is still early and that is 100% correct. Most Ness mains can't even use djc magnet properly for mixups or to retain aggro, close distance etc. The reason why he has such great results is because top Ness players are doing work with for the most part a better character, but the thing is they have always done work. Locals, regionals, and for some players like FOW majors, but that doesn't mean results won't drop in time. People will get better at edge guarding which was always Ness' biggest weakness and most of the high-top tier characters are either swordies or characters that do a great job at edgeguarding.
I mean we’ll have to see but top Ness players have always found a way around this weakness. Sure he’s not an easy character to pick up and bring straight to a major but there is no way he’s a bottom 20 character in this game. I understand why he placed him there I just don’t think the placement is correct. I believe there will be more players that pick up Ness and make some noise and place and I wouldn’t be surprised to see him place in a major eventually. He’s a better version of the mid tier character he’s been in every game
 

Rizen

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I think you're taking a bit of of close-minded view on Link. Having bad frame data can hurt, but it isn't necessarily a deal breaker if the character makes up for it in other areas, which Link does thanks to the amazing active frames and range on nearly every one of his attacks.

Also, Remote bombs are definitely better than C4 if you take into account stuff like z-dropping and the way it interacts with Link's projectile's / sword.

I do think top 5 is definitely pushing it for Link, but looking solely at Link's startup frames isn't exactly convincing to prove that he isn't Top 5 (just look at Smash 4 Bayo).
1st off SSB4 Bayo had a f4 upB that could be used OoS, didn't cause free falling and potentially comboed 0-Death. You can't use "bad frame data" as a case against Bayo.

Remote bombs deal 8%. C4 deals 20%. Remote bombs can be safely picked up and thrown offstage; C4 can't. Hitting remote bombs with projectiles doesn't really do anything.

You're acting like Link has good frame data outside startup. He doesn't. His landing game's good but he has high commitment on most of his attacks. Tilts last 30-39 frames, Smashes 50-77 frames, DA f56, ground upB 76f and if you block it once the rest won't hit.

You're completely ignoring my points about Snake being better than Link -bomb stuff. How is Link better than Snake? He is slower, worse weight, worse trapping, worse kill options and worse recovery.
 

Lavani

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I've been seeing Duck Hunt low on a lot of lists, and the extent of what I know for changes to him is "sideB combos/kill confirms now" and "smash attacks connect reliably". Am I missing something, or is it just a case of him not being on people's radars yet?

In a similar vein I'm always surprised to see :ultyounglink: lower than the other Links, but I guess I haven't seen much of :ulttoonlink: yet and :ultlink: has had a more explosive showing thus far.
 

Badrat

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I've been seeing Duck Hunt low on a lot of lists, and the extent of what I know for changes to him is "sideB combos/kill confirms now" and "smash attacks connect reliably". Am I missing something, or is it just a case of him not being on people's radars yet?

In a similar vein I'm always surprised to see :ultyounglink: lower than the other Links, but I guess I haven't seen much of :ulttoonlink: yet and :ultlink: has had a more explosive showing thus far.
Toon Link feels smoother to play and link got a massive upgrade to his Edgeguarding game
 

Omastar

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I mean we’ll have to see but top Ness players have always found a way around this weakness. Sure he’s not an easy character to pick up and bring straight to a major but there is no way he’s a bottom 20 character in this game. I understand why he placed him there I just don’t think the placement is correct. I believe there will be more players that pick up Ness and make some noise and place and I wouldn’t be surprised to see him place in a major eventually. He’s a better version of the mid tier character he’s been in every game
You haven't read what I said. I know he is a great character, but the meta is young and developing for every single character. Dedicated Ness mains are getting the results because they have been playing a character since Smash 4 that has gotten better and people haven't even come close to optimizing off stage play. MKLeo isn't saying Sonic is a bad character either because he certainly has comparable tournament results, but the fact that they can possibly drop or even get better when people have invested more time into the game.
 

Rizen

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I've been seeing Duck Hunt low on a lot of lists, and the extent of what I know for changes to him is "sideB combos/kill confirms now" and "smash attacks connect reliably". Am I missing something, or is it just a case of him not being on people's radars yet?

In a similar vein I'm always surprised to see :ultyounglink: lower than the other Links, but I guess I haven't seen much of :ulttoonlink: yet and :ultlink: has had a more explosive showing thus far.
T's been putting in good work with YL, beating people like Ken and Fatality. I don't see him being lower than other Links.
 

MG_3989

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You haven't read what I said. I know he is a great character, but the meta is young and developing for every single character. Dedicated Ness mains are getting the results because they have been playing a character since Smash 4 that has gotten better and people haven't even come close to optimizing off stage play. MKLeo isn't saying Sonic is a bad character either because he certainly has comparable tournament results, but the fact that they can possibly drop or even get better when people have invested more time into the game.
And my point is so can any character really and it’s impossible to make a tier list based off speculation. If we’re making tier lists based on right now Ness isn’t that low
 

Badrat

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And my point is so can any character really and it’s impossible to make a tier list based off speculation. If we’re making tier lists based on right now Ness isn’t that low
I see you get in a ton of arguments on this forum its fine to get into the occasional debate but maybe if someone gets cockey and tries to start an argument just ignore them or explain your points politely and leave it at that but you know just a thought
 

Iridium

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I think he means being in the bottom 1/3 of the roster?

EDIT: already addressed lol
No, I get that. I thought it was implied Leo was saying Ness is low tier, so that confused me. I was looking too much at Leo's explanation, that's all.
 
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I know this may be biased being a Ness main but I really don’t think Ness should be that low. He’s too low on a lot of tier lists I’ve seen. He’s winning tournaments and has had very good results so far and while his recovery is a weakness I don’t think he should be that low based on what he’s shown so far this game. This goes for a lot of tier lists. I believe right now he’s a high tier character
Awestin's Ness should be enough to make anyone here a believer in the character. He has wayyyyyyy too much at his disposal to be anywhere lower than mid tier. Frankly he should be high if you ask me based purely on results and toolkit.
 

MG_3989

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I see you get in a ton of arguments on this forum its fine to get into the occasional debate but maybe if someone gets cockey and tries to start an argument just ignore them or explain your points politely and leave it at that but you know just a thought
That’s true, if I have a valid position and opinion I just usually feel the need to justify it but I can let things go more
 
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Cool conversation and all. It should be noted some of the tournament level results will be kind of moot in a few months (maybe in a matter of weeks) because the metagame is too young. Ness' position on Leo's tier is way off though, even for top player standards (pretty much all the other top players put him in the upper tiers).


Right now, I am kind of cringing on ZeRo's most recent video. He applied absolutely no DI on Bayo's combos. It is coming from the top player who doesn't even know that Bayo's Bullet Arts aren't actual projectiles, but the comment section of that video is already praising the character on strengths she doesn't even have anymore. : p
 

Rizen

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Messages
13,084
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United States of Russia
Results aren't everything but I hope this can lay the "Link is better than Snake" business to rest. Snake is easily a top 5 character, significantly outplacing Link every week. I am done with this topic.
 
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Joined
Feb 26, 2009
Messages
5,931
Location
New Jersey
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almostlegendary
That’s true, if I have a valid position and opinion I just usually feel the need to justify it but I can let things go more
Na screw that act up homie. If you ho to far the mods will sort it out. No need to play nice though.

Also I may of found dome Samus tech. Not sure if it's known or not but air charge can cancel into zair.
 

Rocketjay8

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 14, 2018
Messages
226
Results aren't everything but I hope this can lay the "Link is better than Snake" business to rest. Snake is easily a top 5 character, significantly outplacing Link every week. I am done with this topic.
Where in the hell is anyone saying Link is better than Snake?! Why are we even comparing Link to Snake? They have zero similarities other than both of then using remote explosives. It's as stupid as stating that Lucario took Mewtwo's spot in Brawl and Smash 4.
 
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