Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Heracr055]

We've had a month with the game. I think we need more data for Ike and most other chars (unlike obvious choices like the Chus and Bow Jr) before we can assign them to a tier.

 

[Krysco]

So I just posted this in the Mewtwo boards but I figured I'd mention it here especially with Nobie bringing up Mewtwo every now and then but aerial Confusion can true combo into fair at 140% on Diddy and presumably others. The advantage from Confusion gets higher as the opponents percent goes up (similar to Snake's dthrow) but at 999% it caps at +7 for Mewtwo. On some characters like Bowser, you can connect a jab after a grounded Confusion but even Ridley got put too high from the Confusion for the jab to connect. So if for whatever reason Mewtwo is having a hard time getting a KO, eventually he can nearly guarantee one on an opponent on a platform with either a straight up fair or a Confusion to fair.

 

[Rocketjay8]

Looks like somebody's parry isn't working as it should be. How badly is this going to affect Olimar in the future?

 

[Thinkaman]

I feel like a lot of balance/patch talk is hyperbolic not in a direct sense (though it often is that too, outside this thread), but in a meta sense.

No one "needs" to be buffed or nerfed. The game is perfectly playable as is and capable of enjoying YEARS of robust competition, just like Melee and Brawl and Smash 4 and countless other games with far worse balance. Pretty much all balance discussion is really just a faint "I think it'd be nice if--"

And in that sense, all characters above the median "deserve" to be nerfed and all characters below "deserve" to be buffed. That isn't the best development policy and won't be what happens, but anyone feeling entitlement to the contrary can expect a lifetime of disappointment. (Smash or otherwise)

Way too much ink is wasted, to be blunt, by teenagers telling each other how video games should be balanced. (Particularly regurgitating "Buff not nerf!" drivel from bad youtube videos.) Incremental tasks are magnets to amateur criticism, and video game balance is incremental as it gets.


If Ike nair gets nerfed, I feel like the only reasonable reaction is "Yeah, sounds about right", which is what we said to hoo-hah. Any indignation that we specifically are or are not due a game in which Ike has a slightly-jarring centralizing nair is unfounded.


I'm going to assume that almost everyone reading this is in the top ~2% of smash players. If Smash 4's balance patches are any indication, we 2% of the players are going to get 98% of the patches. They are going to nerf Ike nair, not Ike f-smash, like the bottom 50% would sooner want. They are going to nerf ladder combos than less than 100 people in the world can do with consistency. They are going to give dangerous buffs to characters we think are bad but have zero issues already winning at lower levels. And characters who regularly clean house on Time FFAs like Ganon are going to get a free pass because they at the bottom of our lists.

And this is how it generally should be. As David Sirlin says, we are in the center of the bullseye. Newer/weaker players have extremely diverse opinions all over the map, while experienced analysis converges. That's why chatting with you fine people is so great.

But please, as a personal favor to my sanity, don't throw a temper-tantrum when the plebeian masses get their 2% of the patch, and Little Mac jab or whatever gets nerfed. Some numbers in this game are specifically set so that new players can have a good time and not get frustrated. Tell your angry friends I'm sorry they have to share this game with the mouth-breathers we all once were, but their existence is why your GPS is 7 digits and not 5.

Let the devs be devs, and try to improve as a player. Easy, straightforward, and fun.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I feel like a lot of balance/patch talk is hyperbolic not in a direct sense (though it often is that too, outside this thread), but in a meta sense.

No one "needs" to be buffed or nerfed. The game is perfectly playable as is and capable of enjoying YEARS of robust competition, just like Melee and Brawl and Smash 4 and countless other games with far worse balance. Pretty much all balance discussion is really just a faint "I think it'd be nice if--"

And in that sense, all characters above the median "deserve" to be nerfed and all characters below "deserve" to be buffed. That isn't the best development policy and won't be what happens, but anyone feeling entitlement to the contrary can expect a lifetime of disappointment. (Smash or otherwise)

Way too much ink is wasted, to be blunt, by teenagers telling each other how video games should be balanced. (Particularly regurgitating "Buff not nerf!" drivel from bad youtube videos.) Incremental tasks are magnets to amateur criticism, and video game balance is incremental as it gets.


If Ike nair gets nerfed, I feel like the only reasonable reaction is "Yeah, sounds about right", which is what we said to hoo-hah. Any indignation that we specifically are or are not due a game in which Ike has a slightly-jarring centralizing nair is unfounded.


I'm going to assume that almost everyone reading this is in the top ~2% of smash players. If Smash 4's balance patches are any indication, we 2% of the players are going to get 98% of the patches. They are going to nerf Ike nair, not Ike f-smash, like the bottom 50% would sooner want. They are going to nerf ladder combos than less than 100 people in the world can do with consistency. They are going to give dangerous buffs to characters we think are bad but have zero issues already winning at lower levels. And characters who regularly clean house on Time FFAs like Ganon are going to get a free pass because they at the bottom of our lists.

And this is how it generally should be. As David Sirlin says, we are in the center of the bullseye. Newer/weaker players have extremely diverse opinions all over the map, while experienced analysis converges. That's why chatting with you fine people is so great.

But please, as a personal favor to my sanity, don't throw a temper-tantrum when the plebeian masses get their 2% of the patch, and Little Mac jab or whatever gets nerfed. Some numbers in this game are specifically set so that new players can have a good time and not get frustrated. Tell your angry friends I'm sorry they have to share this game with the mouth-breathers we all once were, but their existence is why your GPS is 7 digits and not 5.

Let the devs be devs, and try to improve as a player. Easy, straightforward, and fun.

Honestly, I'd just buff Sheik a little and nerf Inklings ink mechanic a little, and then we're just about golden.

Also, maybe nerf Peach's aerials or find a way to have them be at 88% of the usual power when she's floating low.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

.

I feel like a lot of balance/patch talk is hyperbolic not in a direct sense (though it often is that too, outside this thread), but in a meta sense.

No one "needs" to be buffed or nerfed. The game is perfectly playable as is and capable of enjoying YEARS of robust competition, just like Melee and Brawl and Smash 4 and countless other games with far worse balance. Pretty much all balance discussion is really just a faint "I think it'd be nice if--"

And in that sense, all characters above the median "deserve" to be nerfed and all characters below "deserve" to be buffed. That isn't the best development policy and won't be what happens, but anyone feeling entitlement to the contrary can expect a lifetime of disappointment. (Smash or otherwise)

Way too much ink is wasted, to be blunt, by teenagers telling each other how video games should be balanced. (Particularly regurgitating "Buff not nerf!" drivel from bad youtube videos.) Incremental tasks are magnets to amateur criticism, and video game balance is incremental as it gets.


If Ike nair gets nerfed, I feel like the only reasonable reaction is "Yeah, sounds about right", which is what we said to hoo-hah. Any indignation that we specifically are or are not due a game in which Ike has a slightly-jarring centralizing nair is unfounded.


I'm going to assume that almost everyone reading this is in the top ~2% of smash players. If Smash 4's balance patches are any indication, we 2% of the players are going to get 98% of the patches. They are going to nerf Ike nair, not Ike f-smash, like the bottom 50% would sooner want. They are going to nerf ladder combos than less than 100 people in the world can do with consistency. They are going to give dangerous buffs to characters we think are bad but have zero issues already winning at lower levels. And characters who regularly clean house on Time FFAs like Ganon are going to get a free pass because they at the bottom of our lists.

And this is how it generally should be. As David Sirlin says, we are in the center of the bullseye. Newer/weaker players have extremely diverse opinions all over the map, while experienced analysis converges. That's why chatting with you fine people is so great.

But please, as a personal favor to my sanity, don't throw a temper-tantrum when the plebeian masses get their 2% of the patch, and Little Mac jab or whatever gets nerfed. Some numbers in this game are specifically set so that new players can have a good time and not get frustrated. Tell your angry friends I'm sorry they have to share this game with the mouth-breathers we all once were, but their existence is why your GPS is 7 digits and not 5.

Let the devs be devs, and try to improve as a player. Easy, straightforward, and fun.

I kinda feel like diddy's hoo-hah getting nerfed doesn't really compare to ike nair being nerfed. If you nerf ikes nair what does he have? Diddy kong getting hoo-hah nerfed its like yeah you may have nerfed that but by the way i have the best fair dtilt ultil bair in the game to go along with an amazing ground game and nana. Diddy in sm4sh had way too much good stuff to fall back on. Ike having a very strong nair should be fine. Even if it combos into everything and is hard to punish without that he dont have much going for him.


also buff rosa she trash right now prob the worst in the game.

 

[Mister M]

By design Ice Climbers are degenerate characters.

Ice Cimbers being bad is better for the metagame as a whole.

Sorry, but it is true.

Puppet characters are just silly by design.

I do seriously wonder about this.

The more broken characters in smash history tended to bend/break rules that no other characters could. But at the same time, many characters have weird quirks that have been carefully balanced.

Peach's float, Yoshi's jump, Shulk's long ass sword, shiek's frame data and Olimar's Army are all match up warping attributes that people can deal with. Puppets aren't different In this respect.

The actual issue I think is about making them more fun to fight, rather than a balance issue.

Rosa got away with a lot of bull in smash 4 that many characters just couldn't deal with.

Old ice climbers were straight broken.

But in this game, they may actually have a chance to be find the sweet spot of being both fun to play and fun to fight.

 

[Diddy Kong]

has a good Nair and Leo won that tournament but where do we place him on a tier list? Has Ike really been dominate enough to be a top or high tier? I'm no Ike expert but feel like he's more in the realm of upper mid tier. Maybe I'm underrating him.

If we take a step back, a lot of characters can combo from aerials. YL for example has a f4 Nair (but the combo part comes later) he can combo Dtilt then Fair into. Ike's Nair isn't even that fast at f10.

IDK, what do you guys think?

Ike is great, but he was also quite okay in Smash 4 I believe. Just really undervallued in that game. Ultimate Ike seems to benefit a lot from this engine, and his aerials are all crazy fast now as well as that N Air. With some time invested, he's got the potential to be a great character. Possibly not as popular as the other Fire Emblem sword characters because he requires way more thought, precision and reads. Still, he hits harder than any of them outside of Chrom. He can edgeguard real well, has crazy reach and even speed on his aerials and can now start combos. He's very technical still, and his potential is still untapped, but I do think he's definitely better than average. Probably lower High Tier because certain matchups will just be horrible on him regardless of his strenghts.

 

[MG_3989]

I've watched many videos and for the most part people are still playing Ultimate like SSB4. There's very little parrying, even at top levels, and directional air dodges aren't being taken advantage of as mobility options (when safe). Players aren't exploiting recoveries by jumping offstage. As such, the punish game is terribly underdeveloped. I feel like at some point a top player will blow everyone's mind by playing Ultimate like it's Ultimate.

I think this is an important comment and I think tierlists may drastically change once people start playing the game that way. I mean I can’t say that for sure but I definitely could see a shift in power balance once people start playing more aggressive and less like Smash 4

 

[Justin Allen Goldschmidt]

Just popping in to refute the fact that Roy "has to play like a brawler" because of his sword's property. I, for one, only go in when I have the safe chance to do so, and otherwise do some aggressive spacing, like I also would with Chrom. I just play them both in different matchups, simple.

 

[Kellojolly]

has a good Nair and Leo won that tournament but where do we place him on a tier list? Has Ike really been dominate enough to be a top or high tier? I'm no Ike expert but feel like he's more in the realm of upper mid tier. Maybe I'm underrating him.

If we take a step back, a lot of characters can combo from aerials. YL for example has a f4 Nair (but the combo part comes later) he can combo Dtilt then Fair into. Ike's Nair isn't even that fast at f10.

IDK, what do you guys think?

I think Ike is very good but I don't think he's top tier. If anything, that tournament showed while Ike is good, MkLeo is truly a fundamental god even though I thought samsora was playing better with peach overall, especially at the later stocks.

 

[MG_3989]

Just popping in to refute the fact that Roy "has to play like a brawler" because of his sword's property. I, for one, only go in when I have the safe chance to do so, and otherwise do some aggressive spacing, like I also would with Chrom. I just play them both in different matchups, simple.

True it’s not like Roy can’t use his sword as a spacing tool and mindgame tool and you can only hit on hilt. His sword still spaces just like any other sword would and you just have to play until you get an opening to go in. A disjointed sword is a disjointed sword, weak or not and still a spacing tool

 

[Foie]

Posted this a few days ago but got burried with no response. Is it me or does seem destined to be low tier again? She received a few QoL improvements, but none of them seem to overcome her significant flaws that placed her at the bottom of smash 4.

Her frame data hasn't really improved with regards to startup, still has basically the same range and priority. Air speed and landing lag got a nice bump, but so did everyone else's. Ground speed is slow as molasses still. Airdodge changes help her edgegaurding yes, but also hurt her movement options in neutral. Ground game is still the definition of mediocre, air game lacks seriously in advantage state. Grab game is mediocre gives just some damage and better stage position.

Her specials aren't drastically better. Rollout went from hot garbage to just bad. Sing requires a HARD read but it's at least somewhat usable. Pound got improved a bit but is still mostly a slow defensive option. Rest had it's ko power nerfed with the higher ceilings, and the quicker recovery still doesn't prevent her from losing a stock sometimes after a successful rest kill. So far her best setup into rest is falling uair at certain percents, which can be seen coming from a mile away.

She just seems like a character that only succeeds in a game of defensive keep away, and then struggles to find much advantage on neutral wins. If she fails to gimp offstage, she struggles to kill with only bair, hard reads, or predictable rest setups.

I love puff, but in a game where every swordie excells in speed and disjoint, as do many other characters, I just don't see her doing so well. I think she'd need melee level rest (not gonna happen), melee air speed (also not likely), or some drastic rework of her tools for her to be viable. She just doesn't have the huge reward in advantage state she needs...

Zero's cloud vs hbox exemplifies this pretty well, she has very little answer to anything cloud does:
https://youtu.be/IHRztzIPWAQ

 

[Kellojolly]

I'm still very interested in how Cloud's tier placement will be. Recently, some pros have been putting him in top or high tier (i.e. Zero, Leffen, MkLeo via stream, ANTi, and Tweek). And ot be perfectly honest, I don’t see how Cloud can be considered top tier. Disregarding the collection of nerfs he got (I’m still very salty with some frame/range nerfs he got…esp his NAIR…omg it hits nothing), he has good on-stage presence with aerials and neutrals and all that. But I don’t find his on-stage to be particularly amazing. As for his off-stage, well…he’s not very good. At this point, from my own limited experience and tournament/stream observations from the pros, I don’t find any reason to put Cloud in top tier. I’m actually not even sure if he’s high tier worthy but only time will tell. What are your thoughts?

 

[MG_3989]

Posted this a few days ago but got burried with no response. Is it me or does seem destined to be low tier again? She received a few QoL improvements, but none of them seem to overcome her significant flaws that placed her at the bottom of smash 4.

Her frame data hasn't really improved with regards to startup, still has basically the same range and priority. Air speed and landing lag got a nice bump, but so did everyone else's. Ground speed is slow as molasses still. Airdodge changes help her edgegaurding yes, but also hurt her movement options in neutral. Ground game is still the definition of mediocre, air game lacks seriously in advantage state. Grab game is mediocre gives just some damage and better stage position.

Her specials aren't drastically better. Rollout went from hot garbage to just bad. Sing requires a HARD read but it's at least somewhat usable. Pound got improved a bit but is still mostly a slow defensive option. Rest had it's ko power nerfed with the higher ceilings, and the quicker recovery still doesn't prevent her from losing a stock sometimes after a successful rest kill. So far her best setup into rest is falling uair at certain percents, which can be seen coming from a mile away.

She just seems like a character that only succeeds in a game of defensive keep away, and then struggles to find much advantage on neutral wins. If she fails to gimp offstage, she struggles to kill with only bair, hard reads, or predictable rest setups.

I love puff, but in a game where every swordie excells in speed and disjoint, as do many other characters, I just don't see her doing so well. I think she'd need melee level rest (not gonna happen), melee air speed (also not likely), or some drastic rework of her tools for her to be viable. She just doesn't have the huge reward in advantage state she needs...

Zero's cloud vs hbox exemplifies this pretty well, she has very little answer to anything cloud does:
https://youtu.be/IHRztzIPWAQ

I think she can be good in the hands of a certain kind of player who plays very patiently, goes in hard on her advantage state and edgeguarding, and makes good reads and stays a step ahead of her opponent to land rest. She was bottom tier in Melee until Mango started playing her and I’m willing to bet if Hbox puts time into Ultimate and practices the way he practices Melee he’ll be very successful as Jiggs. Remember the game just came out. I’m not willing to write her off. Yeah she’s not Melee Jiggs but I’m willing to let the meta develop and see if a certain kind of player can do well with her

 

[Iridium]

I'm still very interested in how Cloud's tier placement will be. Recently, some pros have been putting him in top or high tier (i.e. Zero, Leffen, MkLeo via stream, ANTi, and Tweek). And ot be perfectly honest, I don’t see how Cloud can be considered top tier. Disregarding the collection of nerfs he got (I’m still very salty with some frame/range nerfs he got…esp his NAIR…omg it hits nothing), he has good on-stage presence with aerials and neutrals and all that. But I don’t find his on-stage to be particularly amazing. As for his off-stage, well…he’s not very good. At this point, from my own limited experience and tournament/stream observations from the pros, I don’t find any reason to put Cloud in top tier. I’m actually not even sure if he’s high tier worthy but only time will tell. What are your thoughts?

I feel like Cloud is still good, but he can't be played the exact same as in Smash 4 to play optimal. Limit nerfs pretty much make it so that if you actually want to use it for something important, you have to plan out when you get it. Aside from that, most of his disjoints are fine, but just not crazy good.

It seems to me like playing more careful is more important now for him. He still can survive in the meta for sure, but I don't think he'll drop off too much.

 

[MG_3989]

I'm still very interested in how Cloud's tier placement will be. Recently, some pros have been putting him in top or high tier (i.e. Zero, Leffen, MkLeo via stream, ANTi, and Tweek). And ot be perfectly honest, I don’t see how Cloud can be considered top tier. Disregarding the collection of nerfs he got (I’m still very salty with some frame/range nerfs he got…esp his NAIR…omg it hits nothing), he has good on-stage presence with aerials and neutrals and all that. But I don’t find his on-stage to be particularly amazing. As for his off-stage, well…he’s not very good. At this point, from my own limited experience and tournament/stream observations from the pros, I don’t find any reason to put Cloud in top tier. I’m actually not even sure if he’s high tier worthy but only time will tell. What are your thoughts?

I think Cloud will be worse once the game shifts to a more aggressive and off stage play style and the pros gain mastery of the game. The way people are playing now he’s really good but you all saw how easily Peach dominated cloud off stage and I think the game is going to shift more in that direction

 

[Thinkaman]

is also missing her rather great SHAD. I am not aware of anyone else being especially sad to lose it?

 

[Untouch]

I think Jiggs will end up better than some expect, just because of her amazing edgeguarding abilities.
I think floatier characters in general are going to really benefit because of this.

 

[Kellojolly]

I feel like Cloud is still good, but he can't be played the exact same as in Smash 4 to play optimal. Limit nerfs pretty much make it so that if you actually want to use it for something important, you have to plan out when you get it. Aside from that, most of his disjoints are fine, but just not crazy good.

It seems to me like playing more careful is more important now for him. He still can survive in the meta for sure, but I don't think he'll drop off too much.

I agree with needing to playcloud very differently. I actually think he’s now much harder to play. It’s not as simple as to say he’s either more aggressive or more defensive though. With the limit nerf, I find myself playing as aggressively as possible while it’s active and using it if I can. However, with his frame and range nerfs, I am constantly dashing around while being extremely cautious and not going in as carelessly as I did in smash4. Ultimately, i still don’t think he’s top tier or anywhere near it as some pros are claiming him to be. That being said, it was really weird to see zero vs peaches. In his stream, zero has practiced against many top tier players with their best characters and usually dominated most of them. However, zero got destroyed by Samsora on stream also. Samsora abd Mkleo are truly amazing. I did want MVD to win it with his snake though but he too got destroyed unfortunately lol.

 

[fozzy fosbourne]

If the game does shift to a really aggressive off-stage game down the road, which characters suffer and which thrive? The pikas and Peach seem like they are good now and in that theoretical future, too.

 

[The_Bookworm]

is also missing her rather great SHAD. I am not aware of anyone else being especially sad to lose it?

SHAD? What is that?

 

[Iridium]

I feel like / may do even better with more emphasis on edgeguarding, given how arrows will just be more tricky to deal (especially with Pit). Not sure they struggle scoring kills too much, but that could just be me. Makes me excited to see Kuro using him once again and doing well. If we can't get Earth back for now...

Perhaps they won't get overshadowed again due to being lacking in many areas.

I agree with needing to playcloud very differently. I actually think he’s now much harder to play. It’s not as simple as to say he’s either more aggressive or more defensive though. With the limit nerf, I find myself playing as aggressively as possible while it’s active and using it if I can. However, with his frame and range nerfs, I am constantly dashing around while being extremely cautious and not going in as carelessly as I did in smash4. Ultimately, i still don’t think he’s top tier or anywhere near it as some pros are claiming him to be. That being said, it was really weird to see zero vs peaches. In his stream, zero has practiced against many top tier players with their best characters and usually dominated most of them. However, zero got destroyed by Samsora on stream also. Samsora abd Mkleo are truly amazing. I did want MVD to win it with his snake though but he too got destroyed unfortunately lol.

I have to say, I still find it funny how 's Deep Breathing is just Limit 2.0 now. Sort of, in some ways...

SHAD? What is that?

Nice seeing you again. Anyway, short hop air dodge.

 

[MG_3989]

If the game does shift to a really aggressive off-stage game down the road, which characters suffer and which thrive? The pikas and Peach seem like they are good now and in that theoretical future, too.

Anyone with a good advantage state and more importantly good edgegaurding. Off the top of my head Marth, Lucina, Pikachu, Pichu, and Mewtwo

 

[Foie]

is also missing her rather great SHAD. I am not aware of anyone else being especially sad to lose it?

Agreed, the new airdodge hurts her a lot, and I don't know if her improved edgegaurding makes up for it when you factor in edgegaurding benefits everyone else received. Mewtwo is the only other character I can think of as missing the SHAD near as much.

Don't get me wrong, Jigglypuff can be very good at low-mid level play, but I just don't see how her gameplan can be successful at the highest levels of competition. Hopefully hbox can prove me wrong.

 

[MG_3989]

Agreed, the new airdodge hurts her a lot, and I don't know if her improved edgegaurding makes up for it when you factor in edgegaurding benefits everyone else received. Mewtwo is the only other character I can think of as missing the SHAD near as much.

Don't get me wrong, Jigglypuff can be very good at low-mid level play, but I just don't see how her gameplan can be successful at the highest levels of competition. Hopefully hbox can prove me wrong.

I’d put money on Hbox proving you wrong if he continues to stick with and seriously compete in tournaments. That said Hbox may be the exception because no one can even come close to his Jiggs in Melee (well maybe Mango if he wanted to). I don’t think a lot of pros will be good with Jiggs but possibly a select few. He took Salem to the wire who ended getting third in the entire tournament

 

[|RK|]

Puff was already a character that struggled with large aerials when she had a shield. Now, large aerials are even better.

That's my thought on the subject. Not sure where she'll end up, though.

 

[Foie]

I’d put money on Hbox proving you wrong if he continues to stick with and seriously compete in tournaments. That said Hbox may be the exception because no one can even come close to his Jiggs in Melee (well maybe Mango if he wanted to). I don’t think a lot of pros will be good with Jiggs but possibly a select few. He took Salem to the wire who ended getting third in the entire tournament

Hbox doesn't seem very high on her.

I got 25th out of around 400(?) people at Smash Conference United. I lost once again to Manny and I feel Puff has actually no options vs Sonic.

WHAT DO I DO AGAINST HIM??!

Reminds me of another Smash game.

Anyway, it’s definite progress. 👍GGs again Salem/Manny.

— hungrybox (@LiquidHbox) January 6, 2019

I'd contend that Jiggs does fine against many characters, but has some really really bad matchups.

 

[MG_3989]

Hbox doesn't seem very high on her.

I got 25th out of around 400(?) people at Smash Conference United. I lost once again to Manny and I feel Puff has actually no options vs Sonic.

WHAT DO I DO AGAINST HIM??!

Reminds me of another Smash game.

Anyway, it’s definite progress. 👍GGs again Salem/Manny.

— hungrybox (@LiquidHbox) January 6, 2019

I'd contend that Jiggs does fine against many characters, but has some really really bad matchups.

Well that doesn’t bode well for her future at all. That said he still placed 25th but there’s no better Jiggs player in the world

 

[Galgatha]

So, I know typically we talk about the current meta, but since discussions on possible buffs/nerfs and what they could be have happened, I recently had an idea and wanted to have some discussion on it.

In regards to I know alot of people are claiming that he is possibly the worst character in the game (breaks my heart). I will say, that his MK actually biting and sticking with people is a huge buff for him, but how do you think his meta and placement would change if Nintendo added 1 additional buff to his MK? That buff being that, if you are struck by the MK at high speed, and during the point of impact below the MK, you get sent (with the same amount of KB currently) down instead of off to a side.

I honestly think this would give a bunch of new kill options/confirms and would probably make him alot scarier to deal with. 1 set up I can think of would be up-throw into falling MK. The high trajectory speed would cause the MK to explode on impact (as it already does), this would blast the opponent back down where you could get an FSMASH to potentially kill. It would also make his edgeguarding better and make it dangerous to try and recover beneath him. Idk, could be too much, but I wanted to have the discussion.

thoughts?

 

[Justin Allen Goldschmidt]

So, I know typically we talk about the current meta, but since discussions on possible buffs/nerfs and what they could be have happened, I recently had an idea and wanted to have some discussion on it.

In regards to I know alot of people are claiming that he is possibly the worst character in the game (breaks my heart). I will say, that his MK actually biting and sticking with people is a huge buff for him, but how do you think his meta and placement would change if Nintendo added 1 additional buff to his MK? That buff being that, if you are struck by the MK at high speed, and during the point of impact below the MK, you get sent (with the same amount of KB currently) down instead of off to a side.

I honestly think this would give a bunch of new kill options/confirms and would probably make him alot scarier to deal with. 1 set up I can think of would be up-throw into falling MK. The high trajectory speed would cause the MK to explode on impact (as it already does), this would blast the opponent back down where you could get an FSMASH to potentially kill. It would also make his edgeguarding better and make it dangerous to try and recover beneath him. Idk, could be too much, but I wanted to have the discussion.

thoughts?

I dunno. That sounds like something from Project M, which was pretty much a mess of kill confirms and explosive burst movement and combos. In Ultimate, that sounds kind of odd.

EDIT: I liked PM, for the record, but I did think it was (understandably) a little bit unpolished.

 

[MapleBeasts]

Hbox doesn't seem very high on her.

I got 25th out of around 400(?) people at Smash Conference United. I lost once again to Manny and I feel Puff has actually no options vs Sonic.

WHAT DO I DO AGAINST HIM??!

Reminds me of another Smash game.

Anyway, it’s definite progress. 👍GGs again Salem/Manny.

— hungrybox (@LiquidHbox) January 6, 2019

I'd contend that Jiggs does fine against many characters, but has some really really bad matchups.

What I'm most afraid of when it comes to her viability is how good the swordies in this game are. She's gonna have a hard time against a lot of them as they can space her out and most of them can take stocks early. Another thing hurting her is that rest does not kill early enough for how risky and difficult it is to land.

 

[Foie]

What I'm most afraid of when it comes to her viability is how good the swordies in this game are. She's gonna have a hard time against a lot of them as they can space her out and most of them can take stocks early. Another thing hurting her is that rest does not kill early enough for how risky and difficult it is to land.

I absolutely agree, killing at 60+ really isn't that special... Especially for a move that can mean gauranteed death on whiff, and even sometimes on a hit.

 

[MG_3989]

I absolutely agree, killing at 60+ really isn't that special... Especially for a move that can mean gauranteed death on whiff, and even sometimes on a hit.

Yeah I think it should kill at about 40%

 

[MapleBeasts]

Yeah I think it should kill at about 40%

Honestly if it launched horizontally instead of vertically it would be much better. The fact that ceiling blast zones in this game are as high as they are really did a number on it's effectiveness. Launching horizontally like it did in Melee and 64 would let it kill way earlier than it does, especially considering the overall recovery nerfs in this game and would make it harder to punish on successful landing at earlier percents.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

I wonder what the general consensus on is now. Becuase he still seems like a very viable threat. Spin dash no longer shield-cancelable or able to go though-sheilds is a notable nerf yes, but he has better combo ability, good at edgeguarding and still has pretty good killpower despite not seeming to have any reliable kill-confirms or setups. Sonic has not been hit as hard as as most of the other Smash 4 top-tiers. KEN and Sonido have won events with him so far . Sonic actullay has to he played as the hyper-agressive, rushdown character archtype he is meant to be rather than the more campy, hit-and-run playstlyle that he mostly became known for back in Smash 4. Cant really see him falling to far

 

[Heracr055]

Sonic seems pretty good to me in my experiences. The players I've run into online, while not the best source of impressions, make a very good case for how annoyingly effective he can still be (including this one guy who did amazing stuff with his side B tech; I wasn't even mad I lost, I was impressed af). His greatest assets (speed and spin dash) are still very good. In fact, the ability to cross up shields with his side b is very good since you can't run through opponents normally anymore. It might just be me but his neutral B seems to be better as well. I think he'll do quite well and may even pick him up myself.

 

[Tesh]

Spindash isn't shield cancelable, but he has new tricks, like being able to jump back while charging side-B on the ground and he can just jump cancel the release and wavedash. Definitely still able to run a baiting neutral and tricky in disadvantage.

Homing attack is extremely versatile, auto combos out of spindash, which is nice because at low percents nair is unsafe on hit and uair isn't functional if you land the first hit.

 

[Aaron1997]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Komo made a Tier list.


Red = Very strong

Yellow = Strong

Green = A bit strong

Blue = Normal

Purple = Lacking

Pink = IDK

Interesting things

1. Shulk and Greninja top 5

2. Bowser Jr high tier?

3. Young Link is lower then expected

4. Marth a Whole tier below Lucina. Actually he think's Marthcina as a whole is not that great.

5. Toon link is that far down when he's doing very well right now in Japan?

6. Falcon Bottom tier

 

[Justin Allen Goldschmidt]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Komo made a Tier list.


Red = Very strong

Yellow = Strong

Green = A bit strong

Blue = Normal

Purple = Lacking

Pink = IDK

Interesting things

1. Shulk and Greninja top 5

2. Bowser Jr high tier?

3. Young Link is lower then expected

4. Marth a Whole tier below Lucina. Actually he think's Marthcina as a whole is not that great.

5. Toon link is that far down when he's doing very well right now in Japan?

6. Falcon Bottom tier

Honestly, I agree with a lot of this, though having Young and Toon Links that low is questionable for me at least, along with the Bowser Jr. placement seeming a little suspect for a character with virtually no results in any region so far. Memes maybe? Come to think of it, I mostly just agree with the FE characters and the Space Animals (though I also see Falco as very nearly as good as Fox, if not actually more consistent), and Ivysaur. The rest of the cast, I don't have too much experience with right now and I guess I shouldn't say too much in that case.