Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Browny]

Everyone out here coming to the conclusion that Mii Gunner is actually busted and a candidate for best in the game and I'm just like
'its the same character it was in smash 4...'

Mii Gunner has always been extremely good, perhaps it only took some incredibly oppressive projectile abusers like simon and k.rool for people to look for counters and discover the character.

 

[Thinkaman]

Everyone out here coming to the conclusion that Mii Gunner is actually busted and a candidate for best in the game and I'm just like
'its the same character it was in smash 4...'

Mii Gunner has always been extremely good, perhaps it only took some incredibly oppressive projectile abusers like simon and k.rool for people to look for counters and discover the character.

The significantly improved recovery is a big deal; how are Gunner's kill options?

 

[RepStar]

Nevermind the fact that they already have range advantage to their attacks some even significantly. These generic bland clones all move at high speed (with an exception), attack like lightning and, theyre strong. But thats not all, they shoot projectiles too and have good recovery. Am i wrong smash boards?

 

[J0eyboi]

But I'm saying that his short range game might actually be scary with that initial dash essentially making him faster than Inkling's run speed (not initial dash).

PSA: This isn't how initial dash speed works. Initial dash speed only applies on frame 1 of your dash. On every subsequent frame, your dash speed is either increased by your dash acceleration if your current speed is higher than your runspeed, or decreased by your traction if your current speed is lower than your run speed. An initial dash speed of 1.9 barely matters if you're as slow as Link, because thanks to the universal traction increase, he'll be down to his run speed by the 5th frame of his dash. It's an improvement over Smash 4 for sure, but his initial dash only goes ~16% further than it would have in Smash 4 if it had the same animation length (His average speed across his entire initial dash is now 1.613, slightly faster than Smash 4 Mario's run speed).

 

[PK Gaming]

Everyone out here coming to the conclusion that Mii Gunner is actually busted and a candidate for best in the game and I'm just like
'its the same character it was in smash 4...'

Mii Gunner has always been extremely good, perhaps it only took some incredibly oppressive projectile abusers like simon and k.rool for people to look for counters and discover the character.

"X character has always been extremely good" is the kind of take I'm not especially fond of, especially if you can't back that up with evidence.

The character was always a bit underrated, and their metagame was definitely unexplored, but I don't think they were some diamond in the rough. Nor do I think that 2 characters (who at the moment, aren't even meta dominant since there's no "meta") are the reason why the character was just recently "discovered."

 

[Ffamran]

I find that in this game I'm really struggling to string together combos with him. I played him a fair bit in Sm4sh because I found him fun. It could just be that I'm still getting used to the new mechanics like frame 3 jump squat and the speed of the game in general.

So, some people define combos and strings as separate things where combos, sometimes referred to as true combos, are inescapable, while string are escapable. There's also links where the move's hit stun is high enough and recovery is low enough that you're able to quickly go into another move. I guess one example would be Smash 4 Fox's jab 1 or 2 to grab. Some people call it a (jab) mixup and some call it a (jab) cancel, but regardless. Point is that I'm going to differentiate combos and strings.

So, Falco can and has combos at low to mid percents, but after that, it's mainly going to be him stringing moves together. I'd say it's a Falco thing where he always had a good and flexible string system as a result of how versatile his normals are where one move can lead to several others and where one move that starts out as a combo move can become a kill move. The problem of course is how well he can combo depends on the game and the jury's still out on Ultimate. Basically, you might not able to combo with Falco, but you can certainly string moves together with him and in that case, you'll need to be able to follow where your opponent is going and get to them before they can do anything. You'll also need to learn how his moves work and what they can lead into.

I wasn't aware of the nerf in 1.08 Sm4sh to up air. I just remembered it pre-nerf when it was just a blast to use (I went back to melee before 1.08 released). I think the knock back should have been buffed coming in to this game. I don't really know what it's purpose is now that it can't kill or reliably string into his other aerials.

The 1.0.8 changes itself wasn't a nerf to the Uair as it was simply that, a change in how the move functioned. The result, however, was a nerf since what Smash 4 Falco got out of the long run was a faster, but weaker Uair that didn't have a sour-spot. Pre-1.0.8 Uair being slower just made some combos tighter, but the fact it could kill was more than enough to justify it being 3 frames slower on startup in my opinion.

Uair is Falco's juggling aerial and that's probably been the case since Melee. At low percents, you can chain them together and followup with another aerial as a finisher while at higher percents, it can setup for another aerial including another Uair. Falling Uair which is going to be difficult to land on shorter characters also works well as a setup. Try to do it from a pivot jump, a RAR Uair as some would call it, though, since it's a frontflip meaning the earliest hitbox would be behind him.

He really struggles to kill outside of fsmash, usmash and bair.

Sweetspotted Dtilt, Dair spikes, and Fair and sometimes Nair for edgeguards where they will either straight-up kill or gimp the opponent. Uair if you're really that close to the blast zone and the lasers of U-throw and B-throw can kill if your opponent is that bad at DI'ing.

Falco's raw kill percents aren't that great from what I've seen considering how strong other characters have gotten, but Falco has so far from what I know, at least 3 kill confirms through his aerials. Falling Nair and falling Fair can setup Utilt, Dtilt, Up Smash, grabs, and other faster moves where depending on the move, either it kills at the right percent or it leads to the ability to follow up on them. Falling Nair is a Brawl thing that returned while falling Fair works because of its much lower landing lag in Ultimate at 15 frames compared to Brawl's 33 and Smash 4's 32 at launch and 25 after 1.0.8 and because its landing hit is much smaller than in Smash 4, so you can avoid the landing hit. Dair spikes on grounded opponents can also setup kills, but I'm not sure how far they can combo or if they're just strings people are landing because people aren't DI'ing away. Otherwise, Falco's going to use Utilt, Dtilt, Uair, and U-throw to setup followups.

 

[Game7a1]

The significantly improved recovery is a big deal; how are Gunner's kill options?

Charge Blast actually KO's at reasonable percents, so that's a massive improvement in of itself from Smash 4. All her throws do more damage (with B-Throw being able to KO at reasonable percents), and her main killing options from Smash 4 - B-Air, Up-Smash, and D-Tilt- have reduced endlag.

 

[grizby2]

- ness feels nice, although I do miss being able to an Uair after a down throw. pk fire isn't ridiculously broken anymore. his Dair feels MUCH better. back throw is still very strong. down throw into two Fairs is still possible. also, yo-yo ledge traps are back (yay~)

- palutena seems much faster period. I always lose to her online (lol). I kinda feel like Explosive flame should have been given to Zelda as a new din's fire though... auto reticle seems less punishable. up smash also feels better and can kill off ledges ( I know cus I dies from it :D). she also seems harder to knock off the stage, not to mention teleport is less risky.

- side tilt does SO MUCH SHIELD DAMAGE. and F smash is hilarious.

 

[L9999]

pk fire isn't ridiculously broken anymore.

Since when was PK Fire broken? It sucked in Smash 4.

 

[PK Gaming]

In complete contrast from before, I don't think is anywhere near as good as she was in Smash 4, let alone in "Fire Emblem" tier. Pin being nerfed is one thing, but her kit simply doesn't work as well in this game as it did in Smash 4. Edgeguarding, one of the cornerstones to killing in this game, is something she's not particularly good at due to the nature of her aerials (while the other FE lords can simply run off Fair, Nair or Bair, she has to rely on Bair or a precisely timed Pin because her Fair and Nair send the opponent upwards). Her recovery is far worse than before, and while she's good at building up damage, she has somewhat of a hard time KOing due to how linear her KO options are.

Corrin is without a doubt the weakest FE character in the game currently.

 

[Nah]

In complete contrast from before, I don't think is anywhere near as good as she was in Smash 4, let alone in "Fire Emblem" tier. Pin being nerfed is one thing, but her kit simply doesn't work as well in this game as it did in Smash 4. Edgeguarding, one of the cornerstones to killing in this game, is something she's not particularly good at due to the nature of her aerials (while the other FE lords can simply run off Fair, Nair or Bair, she has to rely on Bair or a precisely timed Pin because her Fair and Nair send the opponent upwards). Her recovery is far worse than before, and while she's good at building up damage, she has somewhat of a hard time KOing due to how linear her KO options are.

Corrin is without a doubt the weakest FE character in the game currently.

I get the feeling that, provided the impressions of the rest of them hold close to true, Corrin has to compete with Robin for the title of worst FE character in SmUsh instead of undoubtedly being the worst. But I can't really say much, as I don't even have a Switch. At the very least, the two of them seem the weakest of the FE characters right now.

 

[san.]

Mii Gunner's not exactly the same character. They vastly buffed the kill power on charge blast (didn't kill before), fsmash, uair, dsmash, and bair. Dair also matches its hitbox. Even her missile kills somehow. Usmash kill power feels similar, but links slightly better. They also gave her a frame 6 killing upB if one so chooses to use it for a worse recovery. I don't think her recovery overall has been buffed, it's slightly nerfed due to the lack of air speed and horizontal movement on upB1, but better in a few other ways, such as better vertical distance.

Utilt and dtilt have around the same mediocre kill power, but killing at ~130 is nice for such fast moves.

Speaking of Miis, now that frame data has been gathered for him, Mii Swordfighter is looking surprisingly good. Tornado kill confirms due to set knockback, vastly improved air speed for better followups, much better recovery, improved frame data or hitboxes on nearly all aerials, a way to utilize dtilt, larger projectile, etc.

 

[PK Gaming]

I get the feeling that, provided the impressions of the rest of them hold close to true, Corrin has to compete with Robin for the title of worst FE character in SmUsh instead of undoubtedly being the worst. But I can't really say much, as I don't even have a Switch. At the very least, the two of them seem the weakest of the FE characters right now.

I feel that Robin is definitely better than Corrin in Ultimate. Unlike Corrin, his edgeguarding is quite good (I'd argue among the best), his neutral is far stronger, and he benefits significantly from the mechanic changes. Robin also has some jank too (Thoron is... off) and while he still has some of the flaws from Smash 4 (bad disadvantage state) he's a stronger character overall.

 

[Heracr055]

Glad this thread is back.
So...Incineroar is quite a poor character. He has some decent combos out of his throws & utilt, alright aerials, an interesting option in side B and a backthrow stronger than Ness'. However, his tools do not outweigh the cons of being the slowest character in the game AND having one of the worst recoveries in the game (sure, you can up B high when you're high+far away and retain your double jump+side B for the rest of your recovery, but you can still be put back in the same situation easily; and low recovery with him is a bad idea)
Jigglypuff is poor against swordies but is quite effective against almost everyone else. She has mostly reliable setups into rest that kill from 20-65ish%. And since recoveries have been nerfed she benefits to exploit thst change
K Rool will probably become easier to fight as people begin to exploit his belly armor and slow Up B offstage. However, his crown projectile, kill power and survivability thanks to his weight and up B that covers the top of him will make him quite prevalent for the early meta (and potentially beyond that)
The Pits are going to be quite the "under the radar" threat in this game (unless Zer0 using them makes everyone bandwagon). His kit and movement options allow him to have a viable option for almost every situation (and no, not in a jack of all trades way; if he gains advantage he will keep you there for a long time, snd maybe even take your stock). His edgeguards improve from the worse recoveries as well, while his multijumps and up B\side B allow him to be one of of the few characters with good mixup options to return to the stage (therefore not relying on a nerfed airdodge)

Edit: I redact the statement about Incineroar, he's alright

 

[Krysco]

Speaking of Miis, I know the meta is less than a week old essentially but is there a general consensus yet on whether Miis will be allowed their alternative moves? Their size can't be changed anymore so if anything crazy comes up, it could be nerfed if needed and the moves overall seem to have been tweaked. The Samus Charge Shot ripoff kills now and I've heard that Helicopter Kick is no longer ridiculous. The only issue with Mii movesets is how to handle it in regards to counterpicking. Like, a Gunner could go with Echo Reflector vs K Rool but then switch to Absorbing Vortex if the K Rool player switches to Ness. I think the answer to this issue in Sm4sh was to only allow 1 Mii moveset per set? That is an answer but it seems odd given that other characters get access to alternatives like a Roy player can go Chrom, a Pit can go Dark Pit etc.

Another idea I've had for Miis is perhaps instead of naming them based on the numbers their specials are, we could name them by the first letters of their specials. For me at least, it's easier to remember that GL means Grenade Launch than to think about what neutral special corresponds to the number 3. I don't believe there's any overlap either

Spoiler

Neutral special
1. Shot Put = Sp
2. Flashing Mach Punch = Fmp
3. Exploding Side Kick = Esk

Side special
1. Onslaught = O
2. Burning Dropkick = Bd
3. Suplex = S

Up special
1. Soaring Axe Kick - Sak
2. Helicopter Kick = Hk
3. Thrust Uppercut = Tu

Down special
1. Head-On Assault = Ha
2. Feint Jump = Fj
3. Counter Throw = Ct


Neutral special
1. Gale Strike = Gs
2. Shuriken of Light = Sol
3. Blurring Blade = Bb

Side special
1. Airborne Assault = Aa
2. Gale Stab = Gs
3. Chakram = C

Up special
1. Stone Scabbard = Ss
2. Skyward Slash Dash = Ssd
3. Hero's Spin = Hs

Down special
1. Blade Counter = Bc
2. Reversal Slash = Rs
3. Power Thrust = Pt


Neutral special
1. Charge Blast = Cb
2. Laser Blaze = Lb
3. Grenade Launch = Gl

Side special
1. Flame Pillar = Fp
2. Stealth Burst = Sb
3. Gunner Missile = Gm

Up special
1. Lunar Launch = Ll
2. Cannon Jump Kick = Cjk
3. Arm Rocket = Ar

Down special
1. Echo Reflector = Er
2. Bomb Drop = Bd
3. Absorbing Vortex = Av

So for example, a Swordfighter that would normally be 2231 would instead be SolGsHsBc. The uppercase letters help make it clear which special is which, first uppercase being for neutral, second for side, third for up and fourth for down. Mii names can be 10 characters long and the only issues I see are Mii Brawler with 2211 or 3211 would be 11 characters but I just shortened Hoa to Ha and there's the issue of any Mii Swordfighter with X11X or X12X having the word ass in the name but Skyward Slash Dash can be shortned to just Sd to fix that issue and a space can be put between Aa and Ss for the X11X variant since it's only 9 characters long with the letters. It looks like a jumbled mess at first but I find it easier to remember Fj means Feint Jump than to try and remember what the 2 at the end of say 1232 is.

And also speaking of legality, is there an idea of what stages will be legal beyond the obvious ones? Mostly curious about ones with semi solid main platform like Skyloft, Brinstar and most of Halberd. There's also the notable difference between Smashville with hazards on and off given how the platform behaves and Yoshi's Story Shy Guys seem to bring food even with items off if hazards are on.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

And also speaking of legality, is there an idea of what stages will be legal beyond the obvious ones? Mostly curious about ones with semi solid main platform like Skyloft, Brinstar and most of Halberd. There's also the notable difference between Smashville with hazards on and off given how the platform behaves and Yoshi's Story Shy Guys seem to bring food even with items off if hazards are on.

There's a stage thread here: https://smashboards.com/threads/ssbu-stagelist-discussion.464895/

 

[ARISTOS]

PK Freeze's new trajectory makes it one of the best edgeguarding tools in the game lol.

If you have a linear recovery and Lucas can get it set up your stock is almost certainly forfeit

Just as an FYI because you will be hit by it at some point and you will have to take a minute to recollect the shock of it

 

[Ir0n Ch3f]

I've heard that a LOT of people are playing Inkling online, but I can't verify bc I haven't paid for online yet.

I main Marth in melee and never really gave Fox a lot of thought, but from what I've seen gameplay-wise Inkling has great potential for up air chasing and keeping opponents out with fair and bair that really reminds me of melee Fox (and we all know how that works for him).

Also, gimping with Inkling's bombs is stinky cheese and I love it.

 

[SiO2]

Speaking of Miis, I know the meta is less than a week old essentially but is there a general consensus yet on whether Miis will be allowed their alternative moves? Their size can't be changed anymore so if anything crazy comes up, it could be nerfed if needed and the moves overall seem to have been tweaked. The Samus Charge Shot ripoff kills now and I've heard that Helicopter Kick is no longer ridiculous. The only issue with Mii movesets is how to handle it in regards to counterpicking. Like, a Gunner could go with Echo Reflector vs K Rool but then switch to Absorbing Vortex if the K Rool player switches to Ness. I think the answer to this issue in Sm4sh was to only allow 1 Mii moveset per set? That is an answer but it seems odd given that other characters get access to alternatives like a Roy player can go Chrom, a Pit can go Dark Pit etc.

Another idea I've had for Miis is perhaps instead of naming them based on the numbers their specials are, we could name them by the first letters of their specials. For me at least, it's easier to remember that GL means Grenade Launch than to think about what neutral special corresponds to the number 3. I don't believe there's any overlap either

Spoiler

Neutral special
1. Shot Put = Sp
2. Flashing Mach Punch = Fmp
3. Exploding Side Kick = Esk

Side special
1. Onslaught = O
2. Burning Dropkick = Bd
3. Suplex = S

Up special
1. Soaring Axe Kick - Sak
2. Helicopter Kick = Hk
3. Thrust Uppercut = Tu

Down special
1. Head-On Assault = Ha
2. Feint Jump = Fj
3. Counter Throw = Ct


Neutral special
1. Gale Strike = Gs
2. Shuriken of Light = Sol
3. Blurring Blade = Bb

Side special
1. Airborne Assault = Aa
2. Gale Stab = Gs
3. Chakram = C

Up special
1. Stone Scabbard = Ss
2. Skyward Slash Dash = Ssd
3. Hero's Spin = Hs

Down special
1. Blade Counter = Bc
2. Reversal Slash = Rs
3. Power Thrust = Pt


Neutral special
1. Charge Blast = Cb
2. Laser Blaze = Lb
3. Grenade Launch = Gl

Side special
1. Flame Pillar = Fp
2. Stealth Burst = Sb
3. Gunner Missile = Gm

Up special
1. Lunar Launch = Ll
2. Cannon Jump Kick = Cjk
3. Arm Rocket = Ar

Down special
1. Echo Reflector = Er
2. Bomb Drop = Bd
3. Absorbing Vortex = Av

So for example, a Swordfighter that would normally be 2231 would instead be SolGsHsBc. The uppercase letters help make it clear which special is which, first uppercase being for neutral, second for side, third for up and fourth for down. Mii names can be 10 characters long and the only issues I see are Mii Brawler with 2211 or 3211 would be 11 characters but I just shortened Hoa to Ha and there's the issue of any Mii Swordfighter with X11X or X12X having the word *** in the name but Skyward Slash Dash can be shortned to just Sd to fix that issue and a space can be put between Aa and Ss for the X11X variant since it's only 9 characters long with the letters. It looks like a jumbled mess at first but I find it easier to remember Fj means Feint Jump than to try and remember what the 2 at the end of say 1232 is.

Numbers work better, because you can directly use them for non-English speaking players and they will instantly know what you are referring to.

 

[NotLiquid]

So...Incineroar is quite a poor character. He has some decent combos out of his throws & utilt, alright aerials, an interesting option in side B and a backthrow stronger than Ness'. However, his tools do not outweigh the cons of being the slowest character in the game AND having one of the worst recoveries in the game (sure, you can up B high when you're high+far away and retain your double jump+side B for the rest of your recovery, but you can still be put back in the same situation easily; and low recovery with him is a bad idea)

Incineroar definitely does not have one of the worst recoveries in the game when characters like Chrom, Cloud and the Belmonts exist, and when side B has invincibility, up b being hard to edge guard, and still being able to use directional air dodge alongside all his tools. It's a predictable recovery, sure, but he's going to get back on the stage as long as he's not semi-spiked or projectile camped.

 

[Megamang]

Inkling's ink bomb is one of the most useful and versatile tools that I've seen. Not to mention how good it is to have the opponent inked up, free damage essentially.

When you are inked, do you take more knockback from the increased damage? I think Ink Roller will not remain so effective, but it will still come out to punish landings. Especially when you're just trying to get away from uair chains.

Ink Roller and the little splashdown on their recovery are things which people will get used to. I see player going for a hail mary kill and getting knocked away when they'd be better off just landing a quick aerial and continuing the ledge pressure.


I really like fox. Being able to run into utilts in either direction is great, uair still is amazing. I've been able to get soft nair to usmash still, nair in general is just great. Utilt is still a solid trap, though the followups are different im confident that it will continue to be the lynchpin of his punish game. As im getting used to how directional airdodges lag im chaining more advantage state together. It isn't as good at the ledge right now, but that is a general result of ledgetrapping being less oppressive because most characters have at least a good ledge option or two. Which is a great buff for heavies, it was frustrating watching a heavy just try 3 RPS options and losing to things that effectively covered all three.

 

[Scarlet Spyder]

Palutena seems super solid. Great aerials that can poke and/or juggle, much faster overall (is this custom Palutena?!), and plenty of kill options between uair, usmash, bair. She definitely seems like one of the most improved characters from Smash 4. Even her specials got buffed: Auto-reticle comes much faster and is less punishable, and explosive flame can kill and cover ledges well. I've been playing her a lot this weekend and she seems to have a lot of potential.

 

[YashiWins]

I know this might not be pertinent to this thread, but I've seen so many people complaining that I feel like it's a good PSA.

If you're having trouble having a decent competitive-like experience online, look for rooms named "3s 7m hazardless legal". I saw someone doing something like that, had a blast, and decided to try it myself. Within minutes a have a full four-player room of "glorious smashers" (lol!) having a blast with barely any lag. You can create rooms like these by using rulesets with a limited random stage list.

Thanks for the info! Personally, I find good arenas very fun and the spectate feature provides a good learning experience as well.

 

[MapleBeasts]

Alright so I've played some more and want to comment on Belmonts. They are arguably the strongest characters I've tried yet. Their zoning potential is insane. Axe kills at reasonable percents and is a great anti air option. It does huge damage to shield. Cross forces your opponent to either shield, jump or dodge because of its return leading to more punish opportunities off of reads and holy water acts similarly to pk fire in that it confirms kill with fsmash. Speaking of fsmash, it kills early and has a remarkable range. I've gotten kills with water into tipper fsmash as early as 60% on heavies. Up throw strings into uair which is yet another kill option at higher percents. Aerials all have adequate kill power and the best range in the game. Once players master the spacing required to optimize the whip I see them as easy top tier, if not the strongest characters in the game. Approaching them will be a nightmare for projectile-less characters and characters that struggle in the neutral are gonna get eaten alive by them. The only real weakness is that their recovery is exploitable if you can edge guard before they get into tether range.

While I'm at it I also should talk a bit about Samus seeing I don't see much in here about her. She feels really bad. There's a couple of nice things going for her in that fair and uair benefit from them getting all their hits off more consistently but she really struggles with kill power. Dthrow feels like your best combo starter as utilt's frame data is not the best. All of her aerials are very poor with shorthops as they either have too much startup (bair, dair) or their hitboxes don't work well in conjunction (fair,uair). Dair in particular feels unforgiving with the finnicky spike hit box. Nair is her only viable approach option as the startup is not bad and her tether grab has enough end lag to open her up to punishes. Dtilt still has way too much end lag to be viable at early to mid percents. Being able to charge in the air with her is great though, and upb remains a kill option at higher percents. All in all she does not really excel at anything as her combo game is not good, she struggles to kill and her mobility is sub par. Bottom tier is where I think she ends up.

 

[Releasio]

Reading this thread I notice a lack of underdog characters analysis, so i'm going to put my views on a couple of characters (none are high tier, but they are kind of viable now):
It's still pretty fun and some changes on his playstyle help him a lot, mostly the fact that now most attacks will hit the clown cart instead of him (now you have to really aim at his body to do the extra damage). N-Air has a good hitbox that combos into every other aerial, also F-air and B-air are pretty good kill options still. His specials are ok, though I feel that Down B is not that relevant to his game now.
Boy is she buffed, that's not much being pretty bad in Wii U if not for her footstoll combos, she has two big changes, N-air has decreased knockback which means it now links to her up-air (her best kill option imo) and Volleyball being much faster and has a better direction overall.

That's it really, sorry if my english is rusty.

 

[Inking2003]

Finally was able to unlock after fighting him like 7 times, and here's what I think about him.

I know everyone is saying is the new king in town and has dethroned him, but is not to be taken lightly because of this. He has become surprisingly scary, and I have moved up from fighting level 4 CPU's to fighting level 7 CPU's with consistent two stock victories within about 15 minutes of playing him. Similar to , has an amazing recovery. With his 5 mid air jumps and his Up B, he can cover some amazing vertical and horizontal distance. His Up B can also be cancelled, unlike 's. A few of 's moves also have super armor, and unlike 's where his super armor will eventually break, leaving him open for attack, 's super armor does not. His Side B can lead to stupid combos that could only dream of, and 's Up B is still a spike, which means his memes still stay in the game. With how good he is, I can firmly say that is about to get CLOBBAH'D!!

Also let's talk about .

Surprisingly, I found that he has been balanced pretty well. He is still really, really good, but he's had some changes that make him more fair. His attacks to less damage than they did in SSB4, and he now plays in a way that makes the player playing him need some skill. Of course, you don't really need much skill to play , but now a 5 year old can't win every match with him. He has become a surprisingly good juggler due to the fact that his attacks do less damage now, but he still has some crazy stupid things about him. That awful jab where he wails his sword like a mad man is still a thing, though it can't hit people behind him. Also, 's Up B is a stupid good finisher move. The second hitbox on it after he comes out of the loop is stupid powerful, and if the opponent is hit by the first part while he ascends, they're perfectly lined up to get hit by the second. He's still most likely not going to be tournament legal, but at least he's a step closer to being there.

 

[Rocketjay8]

Finally was able to unlock after fighting him like 7 times, and here's what I think about him.

I know everyone is saying is the new king in town and has dethroned him, but is not to be taken lightly because of this. He has become surprisingly scary, and I have moved up from fighting level 4 CPU's to fighting level 7 CPU's with consistent two stock victories within about 15 minutes of playing him. Similar to , has an amazing recovery. With his 5 mid air jumps and his Up B, he can cover some amazing vertical and horizontal distance. His Up B can also be cancelled, unlike 's. A few of 's moves also have super armor, and unlike 's where his super armor will eventually break, leaving him open for attack, 's super armor does not. His Side B can lead to stupid combos that could only dream of, and 's Up B is still a spike, which means his memes still stay in the game. With how good he is, I can firmly say that is about to get CLOBBAH'D!!

To add on to this, eventually, K Rool's recovery will be less safe when people get better at edge guarding, It's god for not getting meteor smashed, but hes vulnerable from the side and he can't act out of propeller pack, unlike duck hunt. Dedede's will remain the best heavy recovery in the game mainly because of its super armor. Dedede's inhale is now one of his best moves. It can spit out enemy projectiles and your own gordos with a 1.5x multiplier and it travels faster. It gives him a fighting chance against projectile users for once!

 

[ParanoidDrone]

PK Freeze's new trajectory makes it one of the best edgeguarding tools in the game lol.

If you have a linear recovery and Lucas can get it set up your stock is almost certainly forfeit

Just as an FYI because you will be hit by it at some point and you will have to take a minute to recollect the shock of it

Speaking as the Lucas, it was shocking from the other end too.

Regarding K. Rool, I wonder if meteors like Mario's fair and Lucas's bair will be able to slip through his propeller.

 

[J0eyboi]

Since when was PK Fire broken? It sucked in Smash 4.

He means "broken" in the literal sense. The move didn't ****ing work.

Alright so I've played some more and want to comment on Belmonts. They are arguably the strongest characters I've tried yet. Their zoning potential is insane. Axe kills at reasonable percents and is a great anti air option.

If your definition of "great anti-air" is a frame 30 projectile that clanks and has a bunch of endlag, you and the input up+A need to get acquainted.

While I'm at it I also should talk a bit about Samus seeing I don't see much in here about her. She feels really bad. There's a couple of nice things going for her in that fair and uair benefit from them getting all their hits off more consistently but she really struggles with kill power. Dthrow feels like your best combo starter as utilt's frame data is not the best. All of her aerials are very poor with shorthops as they either have too much startup (bair, dair) or their hitboxes don't work well in conjunction (fair,uair). Dair in particular feels unforgiving with the finnicky spike hit box. Nair is her only viable approach option

Question: why are you approaching? Samus has a chargeable projectile that eats most other projectiles and deals 33.6%. She shouldn't be approaching the vast majority of the time.

Samus should not be played rushdown in this game. She doesn't need to, and she's not good at it. She should be played as a zoner/keepaway character, which basically all of her changes push her towards. You want to talk about how she's a bad zoner, do so by all means, but I don't want to hear about how you're struggling to approach with a character who can force approaches, or how you're struggling to kill with a character who has a big ball of death that deals 33.6 mother****ing %.

 

[Gérard Majax]

Incineroar definitely does not have one of the worst recoveries in the game when characters like Chrom, Cloud and the Belmonts exist, and when side B has invincibility, up b being hard to edge guard, and still being able to use directional air dodge alongside all his tools. It's a predictable recovery, sure, but he's going to get back on the stage as long as he's not semi-spiked or projectile camped.

Have to agree with that. Up-b having a ****ton of armor and being relatively hard to punish if he happens to land on stage with it works in his favor as well. Probably can be punished by some characters if you expect it though (you have to avoid the giant explosion and hit him when he does a tiny bounce on the ground).

Incineroar is pretty scary if he gets in overall: ftilt is ******** (destroys shield, kills at like 100), his uair is great, nair and counter give him some options to get out of combos, fsmash is relatively fast, and lariat beats pretty much every close range option. Ftilt + lariat (+ random aerial to catch jump) in particular cover everything at the ledge if you get the timing. Side b is kinda slow but has a bigger range than you would expect. Counter let him gets stocks in a few read (counter -> random throw -> counter -> random smash is a kill lol, happened to me twice).

Getting in is obviously the hard part though with such a bad walk/dash/run speed (at least his jump is average) but he should be okay against slow character. Fast ones... I'm not really sure, because side-b isn't really scary when you are dash dancing left and right and he can struggle to land a hit after a counter if you decide not to play the game anymore.

Stage control feels really important with him to pressure your opponent with buttons and the threat of side-b, and give them less options to just dash back your stuff and whiff punish you. Having an okay jump and good aerials mean that it's not that easy to just jump over him and get center stage back.

He will probably have some rough matchups though. Wolf has been working for me so far as long as I don't go full ****** (laser is soooo good). Tried pokemon trainer as well, Ivysaur can play the long range game pretty well but you have to be pretty careful with squirtle though because you will lose every trade. Zard can struggle to get off the ledge, but he is faster and can punish more stuff than the others on shield because of his grab range (like lariat if I'm not mistaken).

 

[Rizen]

I want to rant about the vs system for a minute. You select the stage, then your character. After the battle you can't press start to skip all the statistics and have to mash A 3 or 4 times. Then you select a stage and have to pick your characters and colors again. It takes like 15 extra seconds compared to SSB4 where you could just mash start You can't use Y and X to change colors anymore either.


I've been playing YL a lot. He seems good but there are better characters (like Chrom). YL struggles vs fast characters with bigger disjoints (Cloud) and doesn't have the kill power to be OP. Still his zoning is very solid and as people get better I expect to see massive potential for combos off several moves including Dthrow, Boomerang, bombs, Dtilt and possibly others. He also gets landing combos from Bair 1 and Nair. His Dsmash is really good, both hits launch low like the 2nd hit of Link's Dsmash.

YL always walks the razor's edge, trying to stay in mid range where you can combo off projectiles and not get hit. He's quite good at it too. YL shares Link's amazing low lag landing game with the speed to effectively zone. IMO he probably won't lose hard to anyone but will have several -1 MUs. YL will be hard for poor mobility and big characters to approach and might be a bad MU for some (if any) bad characters. Unfortunately his light weight and poor kill power balance a lot of MUs out so he won't win more than slightly vs decent characters. This is mostly theoretical at this point, of course.

I feel like he's maybe lower high tier, kind of in the same boat as TL.

 

[Rocketjay8]

Have to agree with that. Up-b having a ****ton of armor and being relatively hard to punish if he happens to land on stage with it works in his favor as well. Probably can be punished by some characters if you expect it though (you have to avoid the giant explosion and hit him when he does a tiny bounce on the ground).

Incineroar is pretty scary if he gets in overall: ftilt is ******** (destroys shield, kills at like 100), his uair is great, nair and counter give him some options to get out of combos, fsmash is relatively fast, and lariat beats pretty much every close range option. Ftilt + lariat (+ random aerial to catch jump) in particular cover everything at the ledge if you get the timing. Side b is kinda slow but has a bigger range than you would expect. Counter let him gets stocks in a few read (counter -> random throw -> counter -> random smash is a kill lol, happened to me twice).

Getting in is obviously the hard part though with such a bad walk/dash/run speed (at least his jump is average) but he should be okay against slow character. Fast ones... I'm not really sure, because side-b isn't really scary when you are dash dancing left and right and he can struggle to land a hit after a counter if you decide not to play the game anymore.

Stage control feels really important with him to pressure your opponent with buttons and the threat of side-b, and give them less options to just dash back your stuff and whiff punish you. Having an okay jump and good aerials mean that it's not that easy to just jump over him and get center stage back.

He will probably have some rough matchups though. Wolf has been working for me so far as long as I don't go full ****** (laser is soooo good). Tried pokemon trainer as well, Ivysaur can play the long range game pretty well but you have to be pretty careful with squirtle though because you will lose every trade. Zard can struggle to get off the ledge, but he is faster and can punish more stuff than the others on shield because of his grab range (like lariat if I'm not mistaken).

Also, be careful then you try to gimp incineroar, he can just whiff his side b to recover and if you have a bad recovery, your screwed.

 

[MapleBeasts]

He means "broken" in the literal sense. The move didn't ****ing work.



If your definition of "great anti-air" is a frame 30 projectile that clanks and has a bunch of endlag, you and the input up+A need to get acquainted.



Question: why are you approaching? Samus has a chargeable projectile that eats most other projectiles and deals 33.6%. She shouldn't be approaching the vast majority of the time.

Samus should not be played rushdown in this game. She doesn't need to, and she's not good at it. She should be played as a zoner/keepaway character, which basically all of her changes push her towards. You want to talk about how she's a bad zoner, do so by all means, but I don't want to hear about how you're struggling to approach with a character who can force approaches, or how you're struggling to kill with a character who has a big ball of death that deals 33.6 mother****ing %.

Why so angry? Me saying she has no options to approach is not even close to saying she should be played rushdown. Read before you run your mouth off. Of course Samus isn't supposed to be played rush down. All I'm saying is that she is not good enough period. There is no reason to pick her when you can pick Belmonts who zone better and can actually kill.

 

[DavemanCozy]

I really like fox. Being able to run into utilts in either direction is great, uair still is amazing. I've been able to get soft nair to usmash still, nair in general is just great. Utilt is still a solid trap, though the followups are different im confident that it will continue to be the lynchpin of his punish game. As im getting used to how directional airdodges lag im chaining more advantage state together. It isn't as good at the ledge right now, but that is a general result of ledgetrapping being less oppressive because most characters have at least a good ledge option or two. Which is a great buff for heavies, it was frustrating watching a heavy just try 3 RPS options and losing to things that effectively covered all three.

Fox in Smash Ultimate is basically a slightly better version of Smash4 Fox (after jab lock was patched), who was already a good character.

The small distance nerfs to side b and up b are outweighed by buffs to Fair having a landing hitbox, back air getting more powerful knockback, the engine itself greatly benefiting his combo game, and his Upsmash range buff is just stupid insane. It now hits above Battlefield platforms, idk cuz apparently he wasn't good enough on that stage already /s lol

He has the same problems too. Terrible disadvantage state, combo food, exploitable linear recovery... he is still a glass cannon, specially now being even lighter (3rd lightest tied with Mewtwo now).

He's flying under the radar right now, but I think he's a strong contender for top 10 again in this game.

 

[J0eyboi]

Of course Samus isn't supposed to be played rush down.

Then why did you talk about her as if she's a rushdown character? I don't care that Samus' only viable approach option is Nair (that's not true in the slightest btw), because she doesn't need to approach. Utilt and Bair's startup (Bair is frame 9, by the way. It's not even close to slow) matter a hell of a lot less when you use them as keepaway options instead of trying to approach with them. You barely even mentioned Charge Shot, and didn't mention Super Missiles, Zair, or Ftilt at all.

All I'm saying is that she is not good enough period.

Then why didn't you mention any of her zoning tools?

There is no reason to pick her when you can pick Belmonts who zone better and can actually kill.

"The Belmonts are good at zoning, guess every other zoner is pointless!"

 

[bc1910]

A few more thoughts so far.

Feels okay, I'm a little underwhelmed to be honest. He feels nerfed from Brawl to me, although maybe I'm just missing that godlike Bair. His aerials are still great in general, I'm just not that impressed with his damage output and he can't really confirm kills. Ftilt and dash attack are great, his other ground moves feel a little slow and/or weak to me, Utilt in particular could use better frame data. Has decent throws but nothing special. His gun is really good and his shine is neat so he's a good pick if you're struggling with zoners. Side B is still awesome. I'm still getting used to Wolf.

Shaya 's analysis was excellent so I won't go into too much detail. I think she's still pretty good. The Dthrow nerf doesn't hurt her that much in a game where nearly everyone's throws have been nerfed and she retains a lot of her other tricks. Bthrow can still combo into flipkick it seems. Doesn't really ladder like she used to and I feel it'd be reasonable for Boost Kick to have a little more knockback since it's much harder to lead into. I think her recovery is notably worse as well, BK doesn't seem to grab the ledge from behind and without the ability to spam airdodge into tether it's actually possible to edgeguard her. Distance seems a little worse too as I've had ZSS players go for Bthrow to flipkick and not make it back. Still, she's in a good spot overall.

Holy **** this kid is fun. Great projectile game but I haven't found it annoying like S4 Toon Link, the general movement buff seems to have made projectiles easier to deal with. Has all sorts of hit confirms off projectiles. Struggles to kill a bit, although I really like Nair at the ledge and you can confirm Fair off his projectiles which is pretty powerful. He doesn't kill off throws really, although his throws are still better than I'd have thought since they combo until decent percents. Good smashes as well. Seems high tier to me, looks to have a lot of depth.

She's basically the same as S4 but her issues with killing are more pronounced in a game where almost everyone else is killing more easily than before. Edgeguarding is really important with her. Suffers quite a lot from the universal grab and throw nerfs in a way that ZSS doesn't since she was never spamming grab anyway. Probably still top tier but I don't feel like Sheik's gonna be the best.

Haven't used him myself, but have fought against him a lot. I'm pleasantly surprised by how good he seems. Ruthless up close with some moves that can kill disgustingly early. Side B is amazing (why isn't Ridley's more like this?) as is Revenge. Randomly has really good frame data on stuff like Lariat, Nair and Dtilt so he can go toe-to-toe with rushdown characters. Recovery is poor but not the worst, unless he gets hit at a low angle he'll probably make it back so needs to be actively edgeguarded more often than, say, Cloud or the Belmonts. One to watch.

 

[MapleBeasts]

Then why did you talk about her as if she's a rushdown character? I don't care that Samus' only viable approach option is Nair (that's not true in the slightest btw), because she doesn't need to approach. Utilt and Bair's startup (Bair is frame 9, by the way. It's not even close to slow) matter a hell of a lot less when you use them as keepaway options instead of trying to approach with them. You barely even mentioned Charge Shot, and didn't mention Super Missiles, Zair, or Ftilt at all.



Then why didn't you mention any of her zoning tools?



"The Belmonts are good at zoning, guess every other zoner is pointless!"

The whole reason I talked about nair as an approach is that she needs to get into melee range to kill reliably. Super missiles don't kill early enough and high level players are not going to let you hit them with a charge shot often. I've played every Smash game leading into this one, do you actually think I'm stupid enough to think Samus is to be played rushdown? The reason she's weak is that her zoning is not strong enough to offset her other weaknesses (poor killing power on vast majority of moveset, lack of speed, poor combo game when compared to the mid to high tiers, etc.). There is no reason to pick her over Belmonts or most other zoning characters in a tournament setting, hence why I said she'll probably end up bottom tier. I have no idea why you're acting so hostile.

 

[Dingding123]

While no enemy characters are nearby, jab combos come out quite literally as fast as you can press the A button on most of the cast!

Some characters with notable jab combos that have good finishing attacks are Ike, Pacman and Wario.

This will make for a great alternative to ftilt on these and other characters, and possibly reaches further than some character's tilt attacks as well.

Discuss!

 

[Iridium]

PSA: This isn't how initial dash speed works. Initial dash speed only applies on frame 1 of your dash. On every subsequent frame, your dash speed is either increased by your dash acceleration if your current speed is higher than your runspeed, or decreased by your traction if your current speed is lower than your run speed. An initial dash speed of 1.9 barely matters if you're as slow as Link, because thanks to the universal traction increase, he'll be down to his run speed by the 5th frame of his dash. It's an improvement over Smash 4 for sure, but his initial dash only goes ~16% further than it would have in Smash 4 if it had the same animation length (His average speed across his entire initial dash is now 1.613, slightly faster than Smash 4 Mario's run speed).

That's why I wasn't confident with some of my thoughts, but I'll keep the info in mind, so thanks for that.

 

[J0eyboi]

The whole reason I talked about nair as an approach is that she needs to get into melee range to kill reliably.

Again, you don't need to approach. You have missiles to harass people and Charge Shot to win projectile wars. Force other people to approach you.

The same thing applies to Simon. His approach is linear as hell, and no one is getting hit by Axe in neutral unless they're trying to approach you.

I've played every Smash game leading into this one, do you actually think I'm stupid enough to think Samus is to be played rushdown?

Honestly? Yeah.

I don't even mean to insult your intelligence. 90% of the Smash community including multiple top Smash 4 players apparently forgot that she had moves other than dash attack in the months leading up to Ultimate's release.

The reason she's weak is that her zoning is not strong enough to offset her other weaknesses

Then talk about that. Talk about the flaws in her zoning and why it isn't good enough.