Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Diddy Kong]

I think that the main issue is that still has notable weaknesses, such as being very light, lacking range on some moves and inconsistent KO power. People make Pikachu out to be this meta-dominant force, but if that were the case then tons of people would pick it up since people flock to strong characters (and thanks to ESAM, Pikachu has won a supermajor). I would not be surprised if Pikachu is actually very difficult to play at the highest level, especially compared to other characters.

It's happened before in prior Smash games. With Melee for example, there is and never will be another ManGo and his Jigglypuff. Nobody could optimise Jigglypuff like he does. Same with ESAM and Pikachu in Smash 4, and now. Is ESAM doing better now than in his Smash 4 days? That might highlight how good Pikachu is in this game. Personally I can believe he's Top Tier. We'll definitely see with Cosmos picking up (or rather choosing HAR HAR HAR) Pikachu as his main.

Also, a character can have flaws and still be good. R.O.B. is a good example that's being thrown around quite a lot. I think R.O.B. might also be at the lower end of Top Tier.

 

[VodkaHaze]

It's happened before in prior Smash games. With Melee for example, there is and never will be another ManGo and his Jigglypuff. Nobody could optimise Jigglypuff like he does. Same with ESAM and Pikachu in Smash 4, and now. Is ESAM doing better now than in his Smash 4 days? That might highlight how good Pikachu is in this game. Personally I can believe he's Top Tier. We'll definitely see with Cosmos picking up (or rather choosing HAR HAR HAR) Pikachu as his main.

Also, a character can have flaws and still be good. R.O.B. is a good example that's being thrown around quite a lot. I think R.O.B. might also be at the lower end of Top Tier.

Of course. Every top tier character in Smash has had flaws. Even had flaws. My point is that even though is a good character, it isn't in the Top 5 due to either its weaknesses preventing it and/or its strengths aren't that strong.

There is a third option, which is the human element of playing Pikachu. It's one thing to play a character well, it's another to play them well consistently. Pikachu strikes me as being hard to play consistently, which might be why it doesn't have amazing tournament results.

 

[The_Bookworm]

So GimR slid this into the Smash community's DMs.

$5,000 prize pool for Melee and Ultimate each, to make up for the loss of Pound 2020.
I actually kind of forgot how it is going to work for Melee because online for Smash Bros didn't start until Brawl as far as I am aware.

 

[blackghost]

if pound happens online certain characters are gonna really benefit and some are gonna really suffer. peach is gonna suffer results-wise as long as lockdown continues. joker may as well. meanwhile, wario, zelda, pikmin, roy, and possibly even cloud will really benefit.

 

[The_Bookworm]

if pound happens online certain characters are gonna really benefit and some are gonna really suffer. peach is gonna suffer results-wise as long as lockdown continues. joker may as well. meanwhile, wario, zelda, pikmin, roy, and possibly even cloud will really benefit.

I don't think people are really going to take online tournament results really seriously, although will be noted.
Btw, OrionStats do not count online tournaments. It's current ranking hasn't changed in a few weeks now.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

I don't see how Online particularly benefit Wario. If anything online like may make his long combo strings and waft confirms harder to pull off.
Joker is..interesting online. Arsene becomes even dumber but without Arsene he can suffer almost as bad as Sheik.
As far as Peach I think the results so far is that Samsora does not seem to comfortable in online play

 

[Kiligar]

Zelda still needs buffs.
Nothing else is relevant.

:3

Zelda needs a redesign, that’s what she needs. As do Richter, Simon and Isabelle. Characters that are hard to buff because they’re so so focused on zoning and can do little else. You could make Simon and Richter have stronger axes and better recoveries, and Isabelle Loid rocket kill earlier than Snake C4 etc but I truly feel they’re just way too skewed in one direction, like Little Mac. Zelda doesn’t really have aerials outside of Uair and Nair.

Isabelle is light, floaty, slow, and her main gameplay is hoping you’ll step on a loid rocket and hoping to fish you up offstage. Richter and Simon have ridiculous ledgetrapping and walking you out in general but up close have little they can do. I feel these characters should be redesigned ideally with less of these cheese strats and more of actual playing the neutral without relying on projectiles to do everything.

These cheese strats as I call them are a gift in Quickplay but competitively are trash, like how Ganon is doing despite Quickplay success. Now, an example of a character who use cheese strats and it actually works is Sonic. When top level game play is using the same two moves over and over, and I’m not hating on Sonic mains. They’re simply playing the character how he was designed, which was poorly. Just like if the frame data, damage and range on Zelda’s phantom was improved not to meme levels like in these April fools jokes, but significantly enough that it became her go to move in the majority of situations, and was what made her a successful competitive character.

That would be bad design to encourage the player to use the same move over and over, I know it’s not what the devs want considering the stale mechanic. The balance team will make whatever decision they’ll come up with, even if it contradicts their own intentions of balancing the game, but my ideas for balance is that certain characters in Ultimate need significant changes to how they play, whereas others need buffs. By redesign since I didn’t make it clear, I mean swapping out moves as well as changing movement stats if necessary , for example giving Zelda actual aerials. Making characters like Richter/Simon/Isabelle less projectile focused and more well rounded.

Everything I say right now is my idealistic version of the game, so I can only see what direction the balance team goes in. But hey, if another patch comes around and Dr.Mario’s up special gets buffed in the wrong way again, and now it kills at 70%, and Zelda’s F-tilt and phantom become stronger, and perhaps Ganon mains are finally-rewarded... by Ganon’s aerials all killing 10-20% earlier. If you’re happy with those changes and like using your character that way, then perhaps you’ll be popping off with Ven when he takes out MKLEO’s Joker at 50% with the extra buffed f tilt. I personally don’t see that as the way to balance the game but different people have different opinions.

 

[NotLiquid]

It's not combos per se that suffer from online, it's confirms - mostly the ones at mercy of the buffer. Most bread-and-butters operate at a pretty fixed point, if you're able to initiate a combo then the sequence is usually all down to muscle memory, especially if DI-ing isn't an option. Confirms are a different ball game, given that more often than not a majority of them that would be safe or easy offline end up being a lot less so online.

Comboing with Inkling online for instance is extremely easy, landing her up-throw up-air online on the other hand is really difficult. In the case of Wario, we've seen top players choke his up-tilt waft confirms even offline. If I'd have to make a guess, most of Wario's essential strings are probably fairly simple to do online given his active hitboxes are usually pretty generous, especially NAir, but he is remarkably more difficult to play online given that his stock options are going to be a little more predictable.

 

[Minordeth]

Delay-based netcode affects the cast in bizarre ways.

At a basic level, reaction-based gameplay is neutered.

But on a deeper level, shorter combos and confirms with wide frame windows are independent of tumble and can fair well in a delay based environment. DI is removed as a variable and there is ample leniency for execution.

On the other hand, longer combos and/or techs/confirms that rely on smaller frame windows suffer. In turn, characters that heavily utilize those things also suffer.

Case example: .

Sure, she has the reputation as an abuser of WiFi, but WiFi Samus tactics get blown up by any mid-level competitive player. Competitive Samus relies on charge shot canceling (press and release shield in <4 frames) as a key piece of her grounded mixup game - which is a huge part of why she is so adaptable.

The game registering your shield tap for >4 frames will bring up shield, which then takes 11 more frames to drop. You’ve just wasted 15 frames in a close range situation trying to mixup your opponent, hunt for a habit, or bait an action, and they decide to just dash attack you.

This doesn’t even touch aerial misdirection with wave bouncing CS to out-space an approach, or as a more precise option - wavebounce CS and cancel airdodge into Zair (4 frame window) to stuff your opponents dash/jump in.

Even something as simple as B-reversing CS from a dash back can end up as a colossal commitment as the game has you do a turnaround Homing Missile.

Essentially, online still has valuable data, but it fundamentally changes how MUs play out, as valid offline tactics/techs become liabilities in the online environment. Your own muscle memory can become your enemy, which substantially alters basic risk/reward decision making.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Mr. E has a new MU chart:

The big hitters for me are only the Belmonts & Pika were rated as a solid loss for Lucy. After watching a few VODs of those MU's, I could see why.
Never brought into the Belmonts being bottom 5, the same story for Pika being outside Top 10.

(I don't have a detailed argument prepared, they just have too many options IMO, thus I don't agree much with any of the counterpoints)

 

[Lacrimosa]

Zelda needs a redesign, that’s what she needs. As do Richter, Simon and Isabelle. Characters that are hard to buff because they’re so so focused on zoning and can do little else. You could make Simon and Richter have stronger axes and better recoveries, and Isabelle Loid rocket kill earlier than Snake C4 etc but I truly feel they’re just way too skewed in one direction, like Little Mac. Zelda doesn’t really have aerials outside of Uair and Nair.

And Zelda's neutral doesn't have a single aerial in it or are severely less important. She has a phantom that covers a lot of aerial space. Just imagine what a shorter chargetime would do for her. The move is already hard to get through if the Zelda player times and spaces it well. Or imagine if she could use raising aerials like Palu, her nair would be really good then
Not sure how you compare the Belmonts to Zelda. Zelda isn't really a zoner (Phantom isn't on the same level as the Belmont's projectiles or someone like Yink. She's fairly unique in thar regard. Like, she has trouble of getting camped out, zoners don't really have this issue.
Anyway, she doesn't need a rework, I think she works quite well but is one or two framerate buffs away from being really good (there's a reason why Wi-Fi delay makes her so much better and it's not only because combo-heavy chars like Peach are worse; Palu/Cloud, probably ZSS are still a threat online)

 

[SwagGuy99]

Mr. E has a new MU chart:

The big hitters for me are only the Belmonts & Pika were rated as a solid loss for Lucy. After watching a few VODs of those MU's, I could see why.
Never brought into the Belmonts being bottom 5, the same story for Pika being outside Top 10.

(I don't have a detailed argument prepared, they just have too many options IMO, thus I don't agree much with any of the counterpoints)

Belmonts being in the same area of losing as Pika is interesting to me, but I can see why (at least on paper). They are one of the few characters that have good options for outranging Lucina consistently, their range and projectiles can make it hard for her to get in on them, and her floaty nature (similarly to Luigi and Peach) make it easier for Belmonts to abuse her in disadvantage.

 

[|RK|]

One other thing regarding Pika/Joker...

Joker didn't really start having consistent results until MKLeo started to play him. There was a good period of time where people did pretty much everything wrong with the char. But having the #1 player to look up to probably helped a ton.

In comparison, Pikachu doesn't really have that. Not to mention that much of what ESAM does with Pikachu appears to come from his game sense, and it's rarely something like "do this in this situation." This is also why (IMO) he does much better vs top players - when he plays Pika, he's often playing the person, and not necessarily just the game.

So, I guess that whole spiel helps me realize two things:

1) No wonder top players - who have probably played ESAM - have such a high opinion of the char.

2) Without a drastically different Pika that's either easier to emulate or winning everything, I think Pika as a top 3 character is going to remain pure theory.

 

[Nemesis561]

One other thing regarding Pika/Joker...

Joker didn't really start having consistent results until MKLeo started to play him. There was a good period of time where people did pretty much everything wrong with the char. But having the #1 player to look up to probably helped a ton.

In comparison, Pikachu doesn't really have that. Not to mention that much of what ESAM does with Pikachu appears to come from his game sense, and it's rarely something like "do this in this situation." This is also why (IMO) he does much better vs top players - when he plays Pika, he's often playing the person, and not necessarily just the game.

So, I guess that whole spiel helps me realize two things:

1) No wonder top players - who have probably played ESAM - have such a high opinion of the char.

2) Without a drastically different Pika that's either easier to emulate or winning everything, I think Pika as a top 3 character is going to remain pure theory.

So when Cosmos is getting top 15-20 player results with Pika in the future, are you going to say it's just due to his "game sense" and not the fact that Pika is a ridiculous character? Just curious

EDIT: I'm done bringing up Pikachu, not gonna change anyone's opinion but man am I done perusing this place for a while, same regurgitated points over and over.

 

[Arthur97]

If Cosmos get's those kinds of results with mostly Pikachu.

 

[Lacrimosa]

So when Cosmos is getting top 15-20 player results with Pika in the future, are you going to say it's just due to his "game sense" and not the fact that Pika is a ridiculous character? Just curious

EDIT: I'm done bringing up Pikachu, not gonna change anyone's opinion but man am I done perusing this place for a while, same regurgitated points over and over.

That's a place to discuss things, so you will run into people that aren't the same opinion as you.
If you have an issue with someone's arguments then point them out. It would be healthy for this discussion here.

 

[Nemesis561]

If Cosmos get's those kinds of results with mostly Pikachu.

No, when. If you're paying attention his Pika is already top class.

That's a place to discuss things, so you will run into people that aren't the same opinion as you.
If you have an issue with someone's arguments then point them out. It would be healthy for this discussion here.

Fair enough you're right. I think I get annoyed because when you fight high level pikachus regularly you will realize it's not just Esam, this character is obnoxiously oppressive. There's a reason everyone thinks their character loses to Pikachu lmao.

 

[|RK|]

So when Cosmos is getting top 15-20 player results with Pika in the future, are you going to say it's just due to his "game sense" and not the fact that Pika is a ridiculous character? Just curious

EDIT: I'm done bringing up Pikachu, not gonna change anyone's opinion but man am I done perusing this place for a while, same regurgitated points over and over.

Whatever this is a response to is definitely not what I was saying. Re-read what I said, please.

EDIT: Let me restate it:

ESAM is the best Pikachu, but doesn't get "best char in the game placings"

On top of that, ESAM's style is hard to emulate, as it's based on a lot of his strengths (see: reads in advantage, hard reads in neutral for kills, etc.), as opposed to just things Pika does.

Comparatively, the way Leo plays Joker is perfectly aligned with Joker's strengths. Safe, retreating bairs, fair 1 confirms, abusing Gun and Eiha, etc. No one can do it quite like Leo, but they can get the idea.

So, unless Pikachu results go up by a lot somehow, or a Pikachu player with a more easily emulated style pops up, Pikachu will only be top 3 in theory.

Is that clearer?

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

No, when. If you're paying attention his Pika is already top class.

His Pikachu hasn't really done much aside from beating ESAM in the ditto, which really doesn't mean much considering online makes things freaky, and losing the ditto later in their best of 10.

The way Leo plays Joker is perfectly aligned with Joker's strengths. Safe, retreating bairs, fair 1 confirms, abusing Gun and Eiha, etc. No one can do it quite like Leo, but they can get the idea.

I slightly disagree with this, Zackray plays Joker fairly differently to Leo and doesn't go for some of the stuff Leo goes for and Tweek played way differently to both of them before he dropped the character, so for both it's not even a difference of skill. Cosmos's Pika and ESAM's Pika play pretty similarly to the point where sometimes they'd do the exact same move at nearly the same time with it being a difference of frames (He lost Game 5 because Cosmos's dash attack came out slightly before ESAM's).

 

[Nemesis561]

His Pikachu hasn't really done much aside from beating ESAM in the ditto, which really doesn't mean much considering online makes things freaky, and losing the ditto later in their best of 10.



I slightly disagree with this, Zackray plays Joker fairly differently to Leo and doesn't go for some of the stuff Leo goes for and Tweek played way differently to both of them before he dropped the character, so for both it's not even a difference of skill. Cosmos's Pika and ESAM's Pika play pretty similarly to the point where sometimes they'd do the exact same move at nearly the same time with it being a difference of frames (He lost Game 5 because Cosmos's dash attack came out slightly before ESAM's).

He literally has only been to one offline tourney where he was primarily going pikachu. He won the local and beat toast twice. Also beating esam offline or online in the ditto is hella impressive no matter how much youd like to down play it

 

[|RK|]

I slightly disagree with this, Zackray plays Joker fairly differently to Leo and doesn't go for some of the stuff Leo goes for and Tweek played way differently to both of them before he dropped the character, so for both it's not even a difference of skill. Cosmos's Pika and ESAM's Pika play pretty similarly to the point where sometimes they'd do the exact same move at nearly the same time with it being a difference of frames (He lost Game 5 because Cosmos's dash attack came out slightly before ESAM's).

I'm probably not being clear - they definitely don't play the same. The point is that Leo was able to demonstrate "here's how this character is strong," and people can take it and run with it.

Comparatively, people still struggle to understand how Pikachu kills, transitions from defensive to aggressive and back, etc. They get some of the obvious stuff, like nair loops, but the obvious stuff is also harder than people think.

 

[Vyrnx]

There are a couple things I've been wanting to ask this thread about lately:

- Since the first month of this game I've been sort of vaguely convinced that Lucas is the worst character in the game or bottom ten at best. Lucas is one of the characters I've played against the most frequently in tournament, and I can't really put my finger on it, but this character feels really, really bad. I'm wondering if anyone here has some insights into the character one way or another.

-Anyone have thoughts on characters or players that do well in disadvantage state? Characteristics of a good disadvantage state? A couple rough thoughts I have: 1) The ability to reliably bypass ledgetraps (e.g. gnw up b) is probably more important than having a barely edgeguardable recovery ((e.g.... gnw up b)) 2) 'Combo-breaking' f3-5 aerials are kinda overrated...ish? 3) Directional air dodges outside of recovery situations and niche platform movement are pretty terrible

 

[SwagGuy99]

There are a couple things I've been wanting to ask this thread about lately:

- Since the first month of this game I've been sort of vaguely convinced that Lucas is the worst character in the game or bottom ten at best. Lucas is one of the characters I've played against the most frequently in tournament, and I can't really put my finger on it, but this character feels really, really bad. I'm wondering if anyone here has some insights into the character one way or another.

I have the opposite opinion of (that he's really underrated due to overall lack of representation) but it's hard to pin down how good he really is since he doesn't get that much tournament representation and it's still debatable whether he's better than Smash 4 or not.

-Anyone have thoughts on characters or players that do well in disadvantage state? Characteristics of a good disadvantage state?

IMO, the characteristics of having a good disadvantage state is still having potential escape options even when your opponent is in control. Moves like Luigi Cyclone and Quick Attack may not help you escape every situation, but they are strong options. Characters like and (and most of the other super-heavyweights) lack these options and they need to have a lot of survivability (like ) to make up for it which is why they tend to have bad disadvantage states.

However, there can be exceptions to this rule who still have solid disadvantage states. in Smash 4 didn't really have any combo breakers or escape options but was generally accepted as having one of the best disadvantage states in that game. This was mainly because his weight and fall speed made him somewhat hard to combo past mid percents, but allowed him to survive until really high percents. And since Aura + Rage was so good in that game, he gained a lot off of being in disadvantage state but usually would never die from being in disadvantage.

A couple rough thoughts I have: 1) The ability to reliably bypass ledgetraps (e.g. gnw up b) is probably more important than having a barely edgeguardable recovery ((e.g.... gnw up b)) 2) 'Combo-breaking' f3-5 aerials are kinda overrated...ish? 3) Directional air dodges outside of recovery situations and niche platform movement are pretty terrible

1) This is actually a really good question. I personally would say no, but depending on what you value in a character the answer might change. My logic here is characters who get edgeguarded easily usually won't get ledgetrapped as much since they won't make it back to the ledge, but even characters who have not as good options to get past ledgetrapping but have a good recovery still probably have a higher chance of making it back onstage overall.

2) Maybe? IDK, it also depends on the overall utility of those frame 3 to frame 5 aerials. A great example is 's n-air. Not only does it break combos, but it starts them as well, meaning that there are times where Luigi can start combos off of breaking out of one. Other ones might be, since not all of them have as much utility as a combo breaker move outside of breaking combos (/ n-air) and because there are still better options to escape disadvantage in Ult like up-b, Luigi Cyclone, or Quick Attack.

3) I both agree and disagree with this. For characters who have better options for escaping combos or mixing up landings, then yeah, directional air dodges don't have much use outside of recovering or mixing up options. For characters who lack other options and still have pretty bad disadvantage states and , it's kind of their only option though outside of double jumping (even if it's not great). There are times where I personally wish Smash 4 air dodging was back in, because I think and specifically would benefit a lot from that (it sucks since they are both really fun in Ult) but it is what it is I guess.

 

[Frihetsanka]

The big hitters for me are only the Belmonts & Pika were rated as a solid loss for Lucy.

He mentioned in the video that Pikachu is probably 45:55 rather than 40:60, timestamped: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fowbBCOrDto&feature=youtu.be&t=4595

I don't 100% agree with everything but it seems like a fairly good MU chart overall. Mario in even is a spicy take.

 

[PK Bash]

There are a couple things I've been wanting to ask this thread about lately:

- Since the first month of this game I've been sort of vaguely convinced that Lucas is the worst character in the game or bottom ten at best. Lucas is one of the characters I've played against the most frequently in tournament, and I can't really put my finger on it, but this character feels really, really bad. I'm wondering if anyone here has some insights into the character one way or another.

-Anyone have thoughts on characters or players that do well in disadvantage state? Characteristics of a good disadvantage state? A couple rough thoughts I have: 1) The ability to reliably bypass ledgetraps (e.g. gnw up b) is probably more important than having a barely edgeguardable recovery ((e.g.... gnw up b)) 2) 'Combo-breaking' f3-5 aerials are kinda overrated...ish? 3) Directional air dodges outside of recovery situations and niche platform movement are pretty terrible

I've been trying to make Lucas work since day 1 and I don't have a high opinion of him at all.
His biggest strength is PK Fire being really good in this engine for a lot of the same reasons most projectiles are good, plus that it beats mashing and covers the horizontal zone everybody plays in with good speed, range and power.
My main problem with Ultimate Lucas is he's this weird character who forces aggression but can't punish it, and also struggles to disengage to the range he wants to play at. It leaves him with a very jarring way of playing the game.

I largely put this down to him having a bad out of shield game: this took a big nerf from Smash 4, mainly (though not solely) due to engine changes.
-Shield drop is now 11 frames, which means that a jab OoS (probably his best option, and good with spotdodge) takes 13 frames as opposed to 9. This is compounded by the greater shieldstun/pushback and lower landing lag across the board: those 4 frames mean a lot more in this game than they would have done in Smash 4. It is unfortunate because he still has decent traction to make this, in theory, something you could actually go for, but alas.
-Aerials OoS are less effective. Neutral air is his quickest but suffers from the same pushback etc as jab (you also can't neutral air and drift with maximum efficiency, because you will get a different aerial - see below), and forward air and down air are too slow to hit much (f12 and 13 respectively) and are not very safe (covered in subsequent points): a lot of characters, especially relevant ones, can work around them easily.
-Constantly fighting Ultimate's janky controls: not a Lucas-specific thing but the hold buffer leaves you constantly getting zair out of shield (which is really not good), and forward air should be safe but often isn't because of the weird momentum lock of the SH aerial macro. (You're also generally trying to fade back with it, which often gives you an unintentional back air because left stick directional input is often used instead of the c-stick directional input - so even if you manage to avoid getting a zair, you're probably going to get either a back air or an unsafe forward air! Very frustrating.)
-Nerfed grab - 12f base startup with these shield and lag changes - coupled with the 4-frame grab penalty OoS - makes it pretty poor to go for, and the lack of dthrow combos means from a risk-reward perspective, it is generally only worth going for if a throw is going to kill. The endlag on his grab isn't even that bad (it's only 30 frames or so, which is good for the range and certainly by this game's standards), but somehow it's still not something to use.
-You don't have the luxuries of other characters - you don't have the roll or air movement to escape like Joker and Greninja, making it very hard to retreat to reset space, and you don't get a good up smash like Wolf, or Screw Attack/Dolphin Slash/Simon Uppercut etc, which immediately limits the options you have to get people off you.

He's also got a lot of dysfunctional moves: jab, neutral air, down air, PKT (1+2) and up smash (lol) often have people fall out of them and need fixing (some of these, like jab or nair, are more egregious than others), and down tilt lost all utility (it is supposed to still combo into jab but is very unreliable; you can also jablock with jab 1 2 now).
I touched on it when I talked about grab, but his punish game leaves a lot to be desired too and he doesn't have much of an advantage state at all. Fixing nair could help a lot in this regard.

There are some glimmers of hope with the character: I've already talked about how good PK Fire is in this engine, the changes to down smash and up air from 4 were welcome, forward air is really good at what it does and he does have some cool setups like zair > tech chase > stock finisher. PK Freeze is alright, bit of a gimmick when recoveries are generally very good, but more usable now than it was before.

Probably the best realistic buff you could reasonably give Lucas - once you've fixed what doesn't work, obviously - would just be to make parries good honestly, by increasing the window, to make dash into jab, down tilt or retreating PK Fire a reasonable option. That wouldn't stop him being a victim of the buffer system/general controls and it wouldn't make him a huge threat, but it would help alleviate the problem he has of not being able to reset the space he wants very well, and improve numerous matchups by preventing them from holding in and mashing on him.

But for now, yeah, he's not good in this game.

--
To lightly touch on your disadvantage point, it shouldn't be news to anyone, but landing on stage is a lot safer in this game than in the past: lower landing lag on neutral airdodge and aerials, plus the inability of the attacker to buffer fullhop aerials, makes going high and landing with a fast fall airdodge or large aerial extremely good. This is a quality that plays to exceptionally well: this quirk is one of the main reasons why ROB's disadvantage is so much better in this game.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Fun fact: between SSB4 Wii U's release (late November 2014) to release (early February 2016) is about 14.5 months.
Right now between SSBU's release (December 7th, 2018) to now (April 9th, 2020) is about 15 months.

So at this point we have already exceeded the time period for SSB4's DLCs, unless you count the 1-2 extra months applied to the 3DS version.

Nothing really important outside of maybe retrospect, but it is interesting.

I've been trying to make Lucas work since day 1 and I don't have a high opinion of him at all.
His biggest strength is PK Fire being really good in this engine for a lot of the same reasons most projectiles are good, plus that it beats mashing and covers the horizontal zone everybody plays in with good speed, range and power.
My main problem with Ultimate Lucas is he's this weird character who forces aggression but can't punish it, and also struggles to disengage to the range he wants to play at. It leaves him with a very jarring way of playing the game.

I largely put this down to him having a bad out of shield game: this took a big nerf from Smash 4, mainly (though not solely) due to engine changes.
-Shield drop is now 11 frames, which means that a jab OoS (probably his best option, and good with spotdodge) takes 13 frames as opposed to 9. This is compounded by the greater shieldstun/pushback and lower landing lag across the board: those 4 frames mean a lot more in this game than they would have done in Smash 4. It is unfortunate because he still has decent traction to make this, in theory, something you could actually go for, but alas.
-Aerials OoS are less effective. Neutral air is his quickest but suffers from the same pushback etc as jab (you also can't neutral air and drift with maximum efficiency, because you will get a different aerial - see below), and forward air and down air are too slow to hit much (f12 and 13 respectively) and are not very safe (covered in subsequent points): a lot of characters, especially relevant ones, can work around them easily.
-Constantly fighting Ultimate's janky controls: not a Lucas-specific thing but the hold buffer leaves you constantly getting zair out of shield (which is really not good), and forward air should be safe but often isn't because of the weird momentum lock of the SH aerial macro. (You're also generally trying to fade back with it, which often gives you an unintentional back air because left stick directional input is often used instead of the c-stick directional input - so even if you manage to avoid getting a zair, you're probably going to get either a back air or an unsafe forward air! Very frustrating.)
-Nerfed grab - 12f base startup with these shield and lag changes - coupled with the 4-frame grab penalty OoS - makes it pretty poor to go for, and the lack of dthrow combos means from a risk-reward perspective, it is generally only worth going for if a throw is going to kill. The endlag on his grab isn't even that bad (it's only 30 frames or so, which is good for the range and certainly by this game's standards), but somehow it's still not something to use.
-You don't have the luxuries of other characters - you don't have the roll or air movement to escape like Joker and Greninja, making it very hard to retreat to reset space, and you don't get a good up smash like Wolf, or Screw Attack/Dolphin Slash/Simon Uppercut etc, which immediately limits the options you have to get people off you.

He's also got a lot of dysfunctional moves: jab, neutral air, down air, PKT (1+2) and up smash (lol) often have people fall out of them and need fixing (some of these, like jab or nair, are more egregious than others), and down tilt lost all utility (it is supposed to still combo into jab but is very unreliable; you can also jablock with jab 1 2 now).
I touched on it when I talked about grab, but his punish game leaves a lot to be desired too and he doesn't have much of an advantage state at all. Fixing nair could help a lot in this regard.

There are some glimmers of hope with the character: I've already talked about how good PK Fire is in this engine, the changes to down smash and up air from 4 were welcome, forward air is really good at what it does and he does have some cool setups like zair > tech chase > stock finisher. PK Freeze is alright, bit of a gimmick when recoveries are generally very good, but more usable now than it was before.

Probably the best realistic buff you could reasonably give Lucas - once you've fixed what doesn't work, obviously - would just be to make parries good honestly, by increasing the window, to make dash into jab, down tilt or retreating PK Fire a reasonable option. That wouldn't stop him being a victim of the buffer system/general controls and it wouldn't make him a huge threat, but it would help alleviate the problem he has of not being able to reset the space he wants very well, and improve numerous matchups by preventing them from holding in and mashing on him.

But for now, yeah, he's not good in this game.

I kind of feel the same way, although I do think the character is merely mid tier at best. Not bad, but not amazing either.

Another weakness that not a lot of people bring up is Lucas' sourspot hitboxes, especially on f-tilt and f-air. Unlike Marth and Roy where it is proximity based, it has to be at the very center of the move to sweetspot. This can be kind of finicky to land.
However what makes it a notable weakness is that Lucas gets almost nothing off of landing a sourspot, unlike Roy. Minimal damage and low knockback, but too slow to followup. Sourspot f-tilt at low percents (even mid-percents for certain characters) is unsafe on-hit.
This weakness was even worse in SSB4, as his sweetspots was not as strong in that game and were smaller as well.

Lucas as a whole, throughout the entirety of his Smash series, has been a character that has been stuck being middle-of-the-road due his changes from each Smash game being more mixed bag than anything. Ness on the other hand, ever since his bottom tiered placement in Melee, has been getting increasingly buffed more and more with each new Smash game.

Maybe we will get a Smash game where the developers decides to fully buff Lucas the same way they have been doing to Ness the past few Smash games.

 

[SwagGuy99]

Made a disadv tier list 😳 pic.twitter.com/Wnwf8DYnbg

— Moist | GrinDGob (@GoblinFL) April 9, 2020

Goblin posted a list of how bad characters are in disadvantage on Twitter today. Might be worth some discussion.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Made a disadv tier list 😳 pic.twitter.com/Wnwf8DYnbg

— Moist | GrinDGob (@GoblinFL) April 9, 2020

Goblin posted a list of how bad characters are in disadvantage on Twitter today. Might be worth some discussion.

Made a disadv tier list 😳 pic.twitter.com/Wnwf8DYnbg

— Moist | GrinDGob (@GoblinFL) April 9, 2020

Goblin posted a list of how bad characters are in disadvantage on Twitter today. Might be worth some discussion.

Assuming how bad disadvantage is going left to right on this list.

ZSS having the 2nd best disadvante. Well flip-jump is the obvious reason. Even without that she is a very mobile and slippery character.

Shulk being #1 is a bit surprising. I am guessing it is due to his ability to switch Monaro Arts even when being combined. But at this point not even the best Shulk mains have managed to fully utilize that to it's possible potential.

 

[NairWizard]

That list is hilarious.

Zelda in not bad? Zelda can hardly even get out of the corner half the time. Palutena in good? Her disadvantage is so bad--mediocre air speed, tall, warp can be intercepted recovering, no fast aerial for landing. Inkling in the same tier as Mario with his lingering f3 n-air, up-b OOS, and fireball? Bowser worse than Ganon?

Meta Knight's disadvantage isn't good; it doesn't matter how many jumps he has if he just delays the inevitable juggle anyway due to low air speed, and a good recovery doesn't mean anything if you're one of the easiest characters to ledgetrap in the game.

And then there's Fox, who actually has decent airspeed in this game, f2 shine, fastfall options, and landing n-air, yet is somehow in the same tier as Falco.

Falco.

Just for comparison, Fox's airspeed is 11% higher than Palutena's, and 14% higher than Falco's.

Was any thought put into this list at all? What are even the criteria?

 

[boysilver400]

Assuming how bad disadvantage is going left to right on this list.

ZSS having the 2nd best disadvante. Well flip-jump is the obvious reason. Even without that she is a very mobile and slippery character.

Shulk being #1 is a bit surprising. I am guessing it is due to his ability to switch Monaro Arts even when being combined. But at this point not even the best Shulk mains have managed to fully utilize that to it's possible potential.

The tiers themselves aren't ordered, but I'm surprised Meta Knight is in the best tier and not Pikachu and I think that's a little questionable.

I also think Sheik's disadvantage is better than Goblin thinks it is. She's skinny so she's hard to hit, and is pretty mobile and bouncing fish is good in disadvantage in my experience playing as her.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

I just wonder what reason Goblin but so relatively "low" on the disadvantage list. I mean a tier below ..what?
I mean he is very slow and big, total combo food and has one of the worst recoveries in the game where it basically renders his supposed superheay survivalibilty moot.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Made a disadv tier list 😳 pic.twitter.com/Wnwf8DYnbg

— Moist | GrinDGob (@GoblinFL) April 9, 2020

Goblin posted a list of how bad characters are in disadvantage on Twitter today. Might be worth some discussion.

Aside from the ones SolidSense has put up, there are some that raises some eyebrows from me.

probably should be in the upper most tier. His disadvantage is one of the worst in the game. His OoS options is almost non-existent with his slow buttons, with his faster buttons both being not fast enough and lacking much range. His entire frame is combo food, and we all know how bad his recovery is.
speaking of "we all know how bad his recovery is", I am surprised he put Doc in the decent tier. Then again, Goblin has always held a high opinion on Doc for a while now, so I guess he thinks his disadvantage is better than we think.
should probably be one tier higher. His poor disadvantage is the main reason why he isn't in high tier already. His landing options and options on getting off the ledge are both poor.
while his disadvantage is not great, I am surprised he put him in the "very obvious very trash" tier. His landing game is pretty solid with a big active down air and decent fall speed.
while I think the two are close in terms of disadvantage (Ness with the better landing and Lucas with the better recovery), between the two, I am surprised that he selected Ness to be the better of the two in terms of disadvantage.
is the biggest gripe I have with this list. Her disadvantage state is not good at all. While she likes to stall at the ledge, she struggles heavily to get off the ledge, especially in Ultimate with the slower directional airdodges and the ledge grab limit. Due to her below-average air speed and slow fall speed (without Deep Breathing), she can have quite a bit of issues landing. She also lacks any good combo breakers as well.

 

[KakuCP9]

I saw that list floating around and I am like 'wtf???'. I hope the one thing people learned from this thread is that Chroy's disadvantage is good because of their fall speed and busted bair. Another issue I have with that list is Terry's disadvantage is no where near garbage, it's honestly low-key decent cause of Crack shoot being a discount bouncing fish and when coupled with a air dodge along with his nair, he can find ways to reset to neutral.
The Bylethes should be in the 'get hit and die' tier not just because of their physics, but they have no move they can use to help them land safely due to the linear coverage on their attacks.

 

[The_Bookworm]

The Bylethes should be in the 'get hit and die' tier not just because of their physics, but they have no move they can use to help them land safely due to the linear coverage on their attacks.

Disadvantage on Byleth is not great but it is not that bad.

His recovery is actually one of the better ones from the FE crew, thanks to moves that help cover him such as side B, fair/bair, up air, and neutral B, as well as his up B covering a good amount of distance with decent speed.

In terms of landing, that is probably where Byleth struggles the most in disadvantage, but it is far from the worst in the business. While his merely average fall speed and gravity is nothing to write home about, his nair is a surprisingly feasible option to land with. Frame 6 startup, hits all around (and doesn't have unfortunate blindspots like a certain two winged character), and most importantly, has that nice landing hitbox.

 

[Lacrimosa]

That list is hilarious.

Zelda in not bad? Zelda can hardly even get out of the corner half the time. Palutena in good? Her disadvantage is so bad--mediocre air speed, tall, warp can be intercepted recovering, no fast aerial for landing. Inkling in the same tier as Mario with his lingering f3 n-air, up-b OOS, and fireball? Bowser worse than Ganon?

I had hoped to get Goblin to answer on remarking on this to reveal his thought process but sadly no reply.
Still, Zelda has a combo breaker with Nayru (very relevant against and at some percents, also don't spam it unless you want to get read).

Getting off the ledge...Depends. She has issues against swordies and ZSS but frankly, who doesn't?
You can use Phantom to cover your ledge options against them though. The way this is that you fade back and use the Phantom to cover the ledge. Phantom can hit you even if set up below the ledge. Downside is that you most like have to regrab but most chars can't deal with that effectively unless you have the read on the set-up.
Short, it gives her an additional get-off-the-ledge option and if the opponent comes for you you can always release it early. It's still punishable but not as easy as without it if you get the hang of it.
But don't get me wrong: She still has issues mostly because of her awful air acceleration which doesn't get her anywhere anytime soon when jumping from the ledge but it's not "awful" or "obvious" as Goblin put it.

Also we're talking about disadvantage in general. That covers three(?) things:
How you deal with being "above" the opponent
How the get back to ledge/recovering -> Edgeguarding
How to get off the ledge -> Ledgetrapping

I don't think that Zelda is edgeguardable, like at all. Not even by this infamous yellow rat. . And yes, recoveries are pretty good in this game but some are exceptionally good. Unless you get the risky 2-frame but she, unlike Palutena, has a hitbox on her teleport.

Maybe one tier too high but worse than Rob or Link for example?

 

[NairWizard]

Disadvantage is more than those three things, or at least it should be--Goblin didn't provide criteria, so we can't say what he was thinking, but in addition to ledgetrapping, edgeguarding, and juggling, disadvantage also happens when you’re on stage getting pressured in a bad position (such as in shield) and when you’re in the corner but not quite at the ledge. It also involves susceptibility to KO confirms, access to landing mixups that take space back, and reversals.

Disadvantage can either mean "I'm in a bad position relative to my opponent" (which would mean that some characters start the neutral in disadvantage automatically due to having poor neutral options, so this is a bad definition) or "I'm in a bad position relative to my character's default position."

For Zelda, "bad position relative to default" happens whenever she loses access to Phantom.

Her neutral kit is kinda mediocre all around. The most notable thing about it is killing OOS (up-b/f-air/b-air) and the generous grounded disjoints, and those are truly fantastic qualities, but the good news stops there. She's slow with risky/committal options. Naryu's Love is a good move, but offers low reward and medium risk in most neutral situations.

But in comes Phantom to save the day. If you have center stage as Zelda, you can pick options that other characters typically wouldn't--you can give up a bit of stage control to retreat->Phantom, or you can use a medium-risk move like Naryu's to win some space and Phantom. Zelda with a Phantom setup looks like a top tier character in almost every matchup, even against reflectors.

When Zelda is cornered, though--not just at ledge, off stage, or in the air--she can't Phantom, because most characters can punish her for trying to use it from too close. This means that not only does she suffer the usual risk of being in the corner, but she also loses access to her best neutral option. Other characters don't lose the core of their neutral when they lose stage control--ROB still has Gyro, Pika still has Quick Attack, Peach still has float-cancelled aerials. Zelda can fade offstage to Phantom still, but then she purposefully puts herself on ledge.

Watch some of ven's losing games and take note of how often he just can't get out of the corner when he's losing.

Then, she has the obvious issues landing, due to air mobility and the way her hitboxes align, so these two things combined make me think that she has fairly below average disadvantage state.

Is she worse than ROB or Link? I'm not sure. I haven't put enough thought into it. ROB's disadvantage is not nearly as bad as people think it is, in general (his airdodge is actually f3 unlike all the other big characters minus Charizard; you can't edgeguard him well at all; and he has some pretty sick landing mixups in some situations, and Gyro at corner), but he's still floaty and big, so in some matchups he just gets destroyed whereas Zelda doesn't--like you said, Pika and Falco are two great examples.

I think I'd rather have ROB's disadvantage state in all the other matchups where he doesn't get outright destroyed though, such as vs. Lucina or Mewtwo, so the answer of who's better depends on your weighing criteria.

 

[Rizen]

Made a disadv tier list 😳 pic.twitter.com/Wnwf8DYnbg

— Moist | GrinDGob (@GoblinFL) April 9, 2020

Goblin posted a list of how bad characters are in disadvantage on Twitter today. Might be worth some discussion.

I like this list a lot but as with every list I have a few nitpicks.
IDK why's in the worst possible tier when he has 2 burst options in addition to his upB.
Move to the worst tier; he has the worst recovery in the game.
Move to pretty bad; his multiple jumps allow him to stall in the air and his upB has armor.
Advance to decent after the buffs to his Nair. Nair is a good, safe landing aerial, his upB goes far enough he can airdodge when recovering which very few characters can get away with and he has a reflect counter if you try to snipe him.
Move to decent. He might not have the tools of the other Links like bomb rune recoveries but he has the best airspeed by far.
Put in good disadvantage; she has a ton of burst options and witch time in the air.
Demote to decent.
Demote to good disadvantage. He can shield art out of combos but it has a recharge and iirc he has to store it ahead of time (?).
Advance to good. Wonder wing gives him a free recovery, he has multiple jumps, an upB that doesn't free fall and can rain eggs down.
Advance way up to good disadvantage. BF is a good escape burst option and vanish is very dangerous to intercept.
I agree with 's placement. If I had to name the best disadvantage it would go to him. His midair jumps allow him to stall in ways the rats can't, he has a sword, dimensional cape lets him warp and punish you for charging a smash and all his specials are safe recoveries.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Goblin: " in decent".

No.
His air-speed and recovery are way too poor to be decent. If he's out of a double jump, he's a goner off-stage...
Not quite tier since at least he has multiple combo breakers, Dair, and B-Reverse Cape to land. But you need a lot more than that to be decent overall.

Advance to decent after the buffs to his Nair. Nair is a good, safe landing aerial, his upB goes far enough he can airdodge when recovering which very few characters can get away with and he has a reflect counter if you try to snipe him.

-Landing Nair is a good option, but it's his only landing option most of the time, so it's fairly predictable to punish. (Also it's a death sentence when it's heavily cracked)

-His aerial mobility doesn't have enough drift for him to air-dodge back on-stage most of the time and he's often forced to go to the ledge with Up-B.

-Up-B's start-up and aerial drift are too slow, making it easy to punish to the point where many characters can just effortlessly keep hitting him off-stage with aerials or even safe projectiles like 's Spring, or 's PK Thunder.

-Gut Check isn't worthless, but it's got a ton of blind spots so it's not all cracked up on top of being laggy:

Spoiler: Gif

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Well I can see people agree disadvantage is not as horrible as claimed. He has stalling ability with his recovery offstage and on to help him ledegrab or land safely as well as mixups using his projectiles. D-tilt is also a very strong "get off me" option on the ground. Of course he has a combo-food big body without the benfit of being a superheavy, plus he can really struggle at the ledge if he does not have Gyro. But R.O.B has actual options at least, which is more than most big-body characters can claim. Still surprised Goblin put him in "Decent" tier though

On the flipside of the argument what characters does everyone think have the strongest or most effective advantage states in the game. Some obvious choices are and with Arsene. However there are mant characters with underated advantage states in my opinion. With some examples notablly held back because they are notabally flawed in other aspects of gameplay

Characters like I do not consider having top-tier advantage states. While we know they hit uber-hard and can potentially take stocks like at 60-70 with a good read. They are way too slow in both mobilty and/or best offensive options to press their adavantage once they can start it. also kinda falls in this trap as well

 

[NairWizard]

I'd add and vote for Shulk. Dying at 60 to a hitbox the size of the moon just feels so stupid. Thank God that his neutral has a few holes in it, or this character would break the game.

is a good contender too, but substitute "a hitbox the size of the moon" with "mobility on par with Usain Bolt."

Also, passing observation, but it's worth mentioning that Peach has the best ground game in the game, by far, and that's just silly for a character whose primary mechanic is hanging in the air.