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This is giving me some flashbacks towards SSB4 in 2017.
$10000 $4000 $2600 $1400 $600 $600 $400 $400 *That is a lot 2-1 MuteAce 2-1 MuteAce (out at 128th) 2-0 Grayson (he then DQ'ed at loser's early) 2-1 Wishes 2-1 Zomba 3-0 Myran 3-2 BestNess (BN kind of threw the first two games away with Palu) 3-0 Benny&TheJets 3-1 Samsora (the Zelda on game 1 was the only game Samsora took) 3-2 Goblin 3-1 Prodigy 3-1 Mr E 3-1 Epic_Gabriel 3-0 Myran (out at 65th) 3-1 Zomba (out at 65th) 3-2 8BitMan (out at 49th) 3-1 Prodigy (out at 49th) 3-2 Benny&TheJets (out at 49th) 3-0 Mr E (out at 33rd) 3-2 king_chris (out at 25th) 3-1 Nairo 3-0 Marss (not sure why Marss didn't go ZSS) 3-2 Dabuz (winner's finals) 3-1 Wrath (grand finals set 1) 3-0 Wrath (grand finals set 2) 3-1 WaDi (out at 13th) 3-0 Cosmos (out at 5th) 3-1 Nairo (out at 4th) 3-1 Dabuz (out at 3rd) at all, and mostly focused on . Maybe he doesn't feel very confident with ZSS online, or maybe he wants to play around with his secondaries on this not-PGR'ed tournament., or at least in the sets he won in, and stuck with his signature , which he took a set off of Nairo with. Could be because he thinks his Pikachu still needs more time in the oven, but it seems like we will definitely see more of his Inkling for a while.
none of these are comparable to Lylat jank literally bugging recoveries.
Well, a large chunk of it being more Unova's layout is too similar to PS2's and the same reason why we don't have PS1/Dreamland/Midgar/Wily's together in the stagelist.
possibly being the best swordie right now. Even though the does not play like a typical one. He wants to play more like a close-range brawler i.e s in your face instead?of sword-spacing. But he is a swordie none the less.is more well rounded , well rounded to the point where her sword might as well be her character model might as well be formed of those prototype spheres. But as we have seen before in Smash being more balanced does not mean you will end up the best
Everyone be sleeping on my boy Roy, he got some insane kill powerIt's good to see that people are finally accepting that
being better than . It's important to keep it in context. Roy barely passed Lucina by 8 points on Orion Stats at the start of a new season. If season 2 continued Lucina would still be ahead.
This is wrong. Nairo won Mainstage, which was a Major and he solo'd it with Palutena.
I know it may seem petty, but Nairo used Zero Suit Samus for three games in the tournament, so I did not count it in this list. I may revise this with more lenient rules, for this ruleset, in hindsight, seems a bit too restrictive.
Just a bit.
NairWizard
- I know you know this, but for the benefit of the thread, I think the hitlag differences between Roy and Chrom are the primary reason you don't see switching based on MU. Timing for fast falling, combos, and various confirms just goes straight to hell unless a player has sunk a ridiculous amount of time into both characters. 
NairWizard
Minordeth
for beating me to the punch with what I wanted to say.
Because if that's a narrow enough reason to ban a stage, then Battlefield is also getting banned because under certain conditions Ike's Aether can refuse to slide up the slope under the stage, have Ike clip himself in the stage itself while spinning, and then fall to his death.
Yep, they aren't echoes at all in that sense. But I actually think that if you play both together you've covered just about every matchup in the game, and there's enough overlap to justify doing that. We don't see Chroys do this--but then again, we don't even see most Chroy players using jab -> b-air as often as they should be, either, which baffles me completely. You would think that Chrom and Roy players would get this down so well that they're never missing it. If I mained this character seriously in tournament bracket I would absolutely dedicate time to doing 100 jab b-airs in training mode a day out of various situations, as well as jab -> side-b for Roy and some other confirms. As important as neutral is, kill confirms are by far the most important thing for characters like these.Oh, I love Chroy discussion.
It's worth noting that with tournament nerves in the mix, this is probably the biggest deal out of everything listed in my initial post. It's not just for hit confirms but for near-confirms, too. Roy has an extra safety blanket that Chrom doesn't have, which shines some light on Kola's stellar online performance (though Kola is just as good offline--Roy is just not bad on WiFi, unlike many characters, including possibly Chrom).
It certainly looks like this out of context, but I disagree with this assessment.
I think Roy can play the traditional sword character game as well though at much lower reward--the difference is that in matchups where the opponent is particularly vulnerable to a traditional sword zoning style, such as Mario, the other character is still playing Roy's game even past tipper spacing. In general, Mario tends to do alright vs. swords (even if they are losing matchups), because he gets much more reward once he's "in" than the sword character can. But with Roy that isn't true. So against Roy, not only do you have to deal with being outranged, you also have to deal with taking huge damage if you happen to manage to get past the range.
Yeah, I agree that it's too hard to tell which is better.
If we're talking about the ledge, Roy getting a read at the ledge kills at like 60, without having to commit to an f-smash, so I think that cancels out Chrom's better/more consistent ledge game, leaving the hitlag as an advantage for Roy.
For me, I'd take hitting characters at the ledge with jab/f-tilt over the hitlag. Roy's most practical tool to hit characters at the ledge is d-tilt which is...okay, but not rewarding so you're left having to react( or more realistically, read ) someone's getup options while the opponent can hang out and see what Roy does because they are in little danger of being KO'd for waiting. Chrom on the other hand can kill you for waiting at the ledge with insanely busted risk-reward in his favor so it necessitates a swift response from the opponent making it more likely that they'll pick an unfavorable option in their haste.
You are spacing jab poorly in most of the situations where you would use jab.
You can buffer the follow-up (jab or spotdodge), so it comes out on the first possible frame--in practice, with pushback, Chrom gets shieldgrabbed for jab -> buffered spotdodge or jab -> buffered jab all the time, and Roy doesn't. The 1 extra frame is very carefully placed to matter a lot here. This one's a hard argument to make with numbers alone. Try it against some high-level players; I guarantee you'll see the difference.
d-tilt is a low-to-the-ground option so it's beaten by tons of jumps (which jab is good at catching, depending on the MU). I think it has less general applicability than jab, despite being a really strong option.
NairWizard
I don't think I agree with Chroy having a better disadvantage than Marcina. While Roy and Chrom have great airspeed, their poor aerial acceleration hurts their mixup potential in disadvantage. Also, Marth/Lucina have a faster fair, bair, and dair than Chrom/Roy which makes it easier for Marcina to land with aerials. In addition, Marth/Lucina have a better recovery than Chrom/Roy due to lower fall speed, higher jump height, and a better up special for recovery. While Chroy has a better airdodge and more weight, Marcina has better landing buttons, better resistance to combos, and a better recovery.
Do you know of any other characters being affected on bf ledges or is it just Ike?
We don't have tons of footage on similar stages here to examine, but there is enough. Here are some examples:
It's not 1/3 of the cast, it's about 5~6 characters, several of which can still make it back if the snap fails (Sonic for example). Narrow ledge that can be difficult to grab for some recoveries =/= not grabbing when touching the ledge like in the clip. The narrow ledge is part of what makes it a good counterpick stage and is an upside, not a downside.
I can confirm teleport recoveries can seemingly randomly (though not actually) just get messed up by BF ledges in this game. And Lucario has a similar issue with it as well.
Marcina takes more damage on-stage, so you give the edge to Chroy? You need be on-stage to actually take damage there, so shouldn't Marcina have the edge?
I can agree with this though.
Did you miss the previous conversation with multiple people confirming that characters can clip into BF while trying to recover?
wait mario is a top tier now? or do you mean high tier? there is a difference.
He's neither. There isn't an official tier list so where we draw the line between "top" and "high", and who fits in which, depends entirely on who you ask.
Hey, ZeRo called the PGR tier-list "official", so it must be right.
In the title, he called it official but in the video he clarified that it only kind of/sort of/wasn't really official. Maybe not, but its the closest thing we'll probably have to one for at least a few months.
and say that I do personally consider him to be top tier. Everything about him is solid except his range and he can occasionally struggle to find a kill onstage past up-air > up-air > up-air > d-air/up-b percents or if he can't land an up-smash. His frame data on his normals is among the best in the game and there are very few characters who have a move fast enough to be able to escape out of Mario's combos once he's started one ( are some of the only ones I can think of). He also has a solid neutral, amazing edgeguarding, a decent approach, strong juggling tools, and a serviceable recovery. IMO, he seems like one of the most well-rounded characters in Ultimate who can deal with almost any matchup or situation. It also helps that he doesn't really have a bad stage either, with Kalos being the only one that I think would give Mario a slight bit of trouble due to it's higher ceiling. And even so, Mario can still do all of his edgeguarding, combos, and juggles that he does so well, he's just not going to be laddering you off the top as much.
is a character that has transitioned similar to . Where there most abusable jank were nerfed (i.e) down throw combos but they got many notable buffs to many of his other moves, making them feel more solid?and well-rounded over