Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Ziodyne 21]

Speaking of Maister and MU's. It does have something to do. with how amazimg Maistet is as aplayer, but it does look like many pro players still are not playing the MU right

Maybe that is why you Maister getting upset more at smaller Mexico reigonal touraments recently. (i.e recent losses Meme, Chag and Yei) Players in that region have figured out how to play against more simply due to necessity as aby competive player there knows to have to face him on a regular basis

That can also be why MKLeo, (being the #1 player aside) who is also was able to beat Maister so dominatly in GF at Frostbite since he is also from Mexico and they play each other a load..nd MKLeo had CLOSE sets thouought his way to there i.e vs Zachary, Tea and Tweek

 

[KirbySquad101]

Whaaaa, what do you mean doesn't go 90:10 against or ? Come on, don't be crazy (so much for Ultimate being balanced kappa).

Jokes aside, I did notice we're talking about Game and Watch, soooooo....


To clear things up a bit first:

1. I wouldn't really consider Smash Vertex to be a very reliably reference, considering how poorly Maister played against Yei (ust look at how he played around 's FSmash, it looked about as bad as how people played around G&W's USmash in the past) and Chag to a lesser extent.

2. The last time Blade fought Maister was nearly 9 months ago. I'm not sure how this became a thing, but Maister never fought Blade recently, let alone lose to him (again, he lost to Chag and Yei). The only time they fought was at ChiliHouse, and there, Maister convincingly 3-1'd his (who apparently "wrecks" G&W). That is, unless I'm missing some recent tournament that happened where the two fought.

3. MKLeo definitely knows the match-up like the back of his hand, but his and Maister's scuffles together feel more like Salem-Dark Wizzy scenario rather than a MU thing. In other words, MKLeo has Maister figured out, more than any other player currently. Based on what I've seen, Maister could've brought out anyone at Frostbite, and MKLeo STILL would've mopped the floor with him (which we saw to an extent with the switch, who is his most invested character after G&W).

4. Maister got the runbacks against both Tweek and Dabuz, two players that had a perfect record against him last season, and also won ChiliHouse. It's true that lot of players are still pretty bad at the MU, and I noticed this most with a good chunk of Japan's players (the crew battle between Team Frostbite and Ray Road Gaming is a testament to that, no offense to Gackt or Etsuji), but at the same times it's not really as simple as "just learn the MU".


With that out of the way, I can see the arguments for him being top tier, as well as the arguments for him teetering more on the borderline/edge. The Discord chat summed it up best:

Barring the questionable "very few true losing match-ups" bit, the two big takeaways that I think are spot on are:

1. GnW struggles most when the opponent decides to just disengage (i.e. play passive and watch the G&W flail around like a spaz). As we've seen does this best against him and as a result, is arguably G&W's worst MU.

2. How big of a struggle the first point is, as SolidSense pointed out, is kind of overblown. NAir/Dash attack chases, BAir/Chef spacing, Bucketing (depending on the MU), and FAir/UAir suffocation are more than enough to get the job done in most circumstances, if Maister's pervasive success is of any indication (so far, he's top 8'd every S Tier he's been to and even won himself a nice Mexican C-Tier along the way). What helps is that 1. He transitions into advantage very well due to his attacks either throwing the opponent offstage (Fire) or high up towards the ceiling (Air puffs), and 2. He's very good at pressing his advantage due to a combination of lingering disjointed hitboxes (NAir, BAir, UAir, Sausages) and surprise burst options (Dash attack, Fire). Because of that, he doesn't have to win neutral a lot of times in most cases.

With everything said, however, the biggest question now surrounding this character is that is everything he has going for him enough to keep him in top tier while having an approach, that - to be honest - is kind of mediocre by top tier standards? It's one flaw, but it's a flaw that's much harder to shrug off compared to some other flaw that's nearly not as game-changing (i.e. being light). At that point, I think that question depends on who you ask and how much they weigh his strengths against his weaknesses.

I currently have him in the bottom of top tier/Top 15, so in my opinion, yes. To me, Maister's continuous success - this late into the game no less - is proof of that. At the same time, really strong characters attract strong players. And while zackray has dabbled in him from time to time, G&W is admittedly hurt the most in terms of viability if you took away his best player, versus almost every other top tier.

That said, isn't nearly as hard carried as . At least other G&W mains win a C-Tier and/or get Top 32 at an S Tier.

Also, yes yes yes yes, is a hidden boss in this game, I'm glad people are FINALLY realizing this.

 

[Tri Knight]

Japanese meta sure seems different:

配信見てくれた人、協力してくれたクロ(@_kuro258 )さんとEim(@eim09ssbu )さん、ありがとうございました。
一応完成したキャラランクはこちらとなりますが、キャラランク作成は過程を楽しむものだと思うので怒らないでください。
返信しないかもだけど意見ある人(特に上位勢)はどうぞ！(面白いので) pic.twitter.com/zU5d28tp3N

— ぱせりまん (@Paseriman98) February 28, 2020

Samus, WFT, Zelda all super slow but hey, at least near bottom tier chars can make do well at majors.

Love the way they organized it. The characters in S through A tier are just THAT close.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Speaking of you keep seeing pro players sing about all of his strengths and general amazingness.

However , what exactly are his big weakness or flaws despite being light and having a bit of a learning curve. What does Pika struggle with? Why is only ESAM getting consistent top-level resutls? Why did any suddeny flock to after the 3.0.0 nerfs and Pikachu is generally considered the better electric rat now. Instead notable Pichu players sticking with Pichu while picking up co-mains secondaries

I guess it can be range , the fact that he can rack up damage and combo well but he still sometimes has to make a slight comitmment to get a kill. Good SDI can mess with a lot of Pikachu's combos and kill-options, as the G7 Marss vs ESAM set showed

I think may deserve a bit of slack at this point. Monado boy has got some resutls at least. Notably Kome getting 2nd at Evo Japan as well as some other wins at Japan PGR-Ranked events. Maybe not top-tier resutls, but notable resutls at least

 

[Nobie]

One thing to note about Void's Sheik chart is that he says in his video that he often rates matchups better than other Sheik players. It's as if he gives all matchups Void points, because while others feel that a volatile matchup (i.e. Sheik's vulnerability to getting janked out due to the character's flaws) might be even, he feels he himself would turn that into a +1 in his favor.

 

[NairWizard]

Is it possible for us to go a little deeper in this thread than talking about "trouble killing," "range," "inconsistency," etc.? These are such broad, general categories--low-level observations about a character. We can all tell looking at Game and Watch that approaching is his biggest flaw. We can all tell looking at Sheik that she doesn't have raw kill moves.

Let's go a little deeper than cursory observations. Let's talk about hitboxes, let's talk about specific matchup interactions, let's talk about options for disadvantage and how to deal with them.

For example, what's a character's best low-commitment way to punish rolls from the ledge and how does that compare to other characters? It would be really nice to see arguments like these made more often in this thread.

 

[B_Burg]

Japanese meta sure seems different:

配信見てくれた人、協力してくれたクロ(@_kuro258 )さんとEim(@eim09ssbu )さん、ありがとうございました。
一応完成したキャラランクはこちらとなりますが、キャラランク作成は過程を楽しむものだと思うので怒らないでください。
返信しないかもだけど意見ある人(特に上位勢)はどうぞ！(面白いので) pic.twitter.com/zU5d28tp3N

— ぱせりまん (@Paseriman98) February 28, 2020

Samus, WFT, Zelda all super slow but hey, at least near bottom tier chars can make do well at majors.

Could I ask for a little more context for this list? Is it a single player's opinion or is this more like a basic concensus for things right now?

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Could I ask for a little more context for this list? Is it a single player's opinion or is this more like a basic concensus for things right now?

Single player opinion

 

[Rizen]

Wadi used at a local so we got some rare top level footage of him:

Speaking of you keep seeing pro players sing about all of his strengths and general amazingness.

However , what exactly are his big weakness or flaws despite being light and having a bit of a learning curve. What does Pika struggle with? Why is only ESAM getting consistent top-level resutls? Why did any suddeny flock to after the 3.0.0 nerfs and Pikachu is generally considered the better electric rat now. Instead notable Pichu players sticking with Pichu while picking up co-mains secondaries

I guess it can be range , the fact that he can rack up damage and combo well but he still sometimes has to make a slight comitmment to get a kill. Good SDI can mess with a lot of Pikachu's combos and kill-options, as the G7 Marss vs ESAM set showed

I've found long lasting aerials like sex kicks can give the rats a lot of trouble. They have quick moves to burst in with but little range. Pika also gets out-camped by the better campers like the Links.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Wadi used at a local so we got some rare top level footage of him:

I've found long lasting aerials like sex kicks can give the rats a lot of trouble. They have quick moves to burst in with but little range. Pika also gets out-camped by the better campers like the Links.

Well I may be wrong but he seems to have the same issue back in Smash 4. In MU's where his normally strong edgeguaing wont work i.e he will most likel have to go for a somewhat risky commitment to get a kill. i.e Dash attack or Smashes.

Even his new Nair can still be survived at high percents with great SDI.

Speaking of sex kicks, I guess that is why has generally considered to well vs the rats.

Well unless the Mario player chokes hard, like Dark Wizzy did vs ESAM at Genisis 7.

Or in Prodigy's case where MU is Kryptonite to him even on a higher level is to Samsora

 

[Megamang]

As far as inexperience goes, Void also has a ton of room to grow for shiek.

I mean the stuff that carries over from the other games he is obviously pretty great at, but he was dropping some kill confirms. I believe in the Tweek game he could have f-smashed and ended the game at the ledge, but he didn't seem sure he would hit and he instead tried to mix him, which is a good thing to have in your pocket and gets you some mileage in the set if you read their defensive option... but, at that moment, just pulling the trigger would have at least got him in a ledgeguard situation.

He also pulls the trigger on bouncing fish that would have hit in 4, but don't quite find the mark. With some more time in the lab I can see shiek become another threat via void. If his conversions got a bit more efficient, and he lands the kills when he gets the setup.... well, its a good look.

Does anyone know why dragdowns sometimes don't quite work? I think it has to do with precise timing on the time between the last hit and when you land, ideally you want the linking hit to hit the frame before you land but if there is some space in between these two moments it can drop. ESAM talks about this in his combo guide, you want pika's fair to hit riiight before you land.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Maybe is so polarizing because only ESAM utilizes Pikachu 100%. And unless you got specific ESAM field experience, chances are he's gonna blow you up with that Lv 100 perfect EV, perfect IV, perfect nature , while all the other Pikachus aren't comparable at all. ESAM alone sort of decides this characters fate.

There probably won't be anyone else going this far with Pikachu. Same with the few die hard mains. I argue they ARE Top Tier. But only in their dedicated main's hands. And they drop once their opponents get actual experience vs the players themselves, not the characters per se.

 

[TennisBall]

I have no clue why is still be considered to have barren results with Kome and Nicko doing extremely well with the character.
Like am I missing something here? I get why we're skeptical about but I truly cannot explain why some of us are so opposed about people considering Shulk a top tier?

 

[Nah]

I’d imagine it’s at least in part a holdover from the Smash 4 days, when “Shulk is top tier” really was little more than a meme

old stigmas sometimes take a while to wear off probably

 

[Ziodyne 21]

I’d imagine it’s at least in part a holdover from the Smash 4 days, when “Shulk is top tier” really was little more than a meme

old stigmas sometimes take a while to wear off probably

It also did not help that Shulk lacked resutls for most of Ultimates early period. With Shulk mains Kome really only having thier big breakthoughs in the past few months or so

 

[VenomSnake]

It's just that I think Sheik is a contender for top 5-10, but I don't have the same faith in those other 4 characters,

Before Frostbite, Void made a 7.0.0 Sheik matchup chart. Here's the reference:

.

I hate to break it to you, but going -1 at best to nearly every top tier minus peach/daisy does not spell a "top tier" character. Even better, if you want to use MU theorying as an argument definitely has Shiek beaten in the MU department. only approximately 5 characters are agreed to be losing for sonic according to several of his best players, and even then it's not by much. For example: wrath's MU list (a person who is able to reach top 8 at a giant tournament):

Mind you, this isn't even that unreasonable of a MU chart. Sonic has a ton of versatility in his kit and movement, meaning if he has to play on the offensive, he doesn't do that bad of a job at it if he's playing his mix-up game well, and his defensive game is amazing (due to pretty obvious reasons of just being able to run away from anything in the game). Wrath personally believes Sonic to be a top tier, and while I don't think that is quite true due to having issues killing and being consistent (if not for consistency I'd 100% argue sonic is a top tier), he's definitely got one of the best MU charts in the game. The issue with Sonic mainly lies in that some mus require very taxing amounts of patience, in that against top players you have to get them impatient, which is really, really hard. imo Sonic doesn't struggle against the cast, he struggles against players, and he's unique in that aspect.


EDIT: i also want to add that due to sonic not being that popular/understood, a lot of people really, REALLY underestimate him. He's a character who essentially rewards waiting out players who just throw out moves, in a game where its very, very popular to just throw out moves in neutral and be assumed to be safe. Range is really not that much of an issue for Sonic, because he has decent range himself, while also being able to just footsie around to get closer to the opponent. He also has by far the best movement mix-ups in the game, thanks to his incredible dash speed, his deceptively fast airspeed from his spins, a f4 up b that essentially gets sonic out of any bad pressure, and from DAD in this game, Sonic can cancel his spinshot into a waveland, which is an insanely good mix-up tool against players who are expecting him to fully commit to the spin. This is still ignoring Sonic's good dash-dance game, his instant spin-dash jump, his air spincharge's velocity, and Sonic being able to cancel his spins with double jumps.
Case in point:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[Nathan Richardson]

As having faced pikachu his biggest problem is long-lasting hitboxes with good frame data. Pikachu relies on his quick frame data and easy follow-ups to nail opponents. However pikachu also relies on getting those moves started. They have all the tools needed to do so, so when they CAN'T do that pikachu ends up on his back paw trying to read his opponent to get in. His thunderbolt is good on anyone that can't handle projectile spam and he has a kill throw combo move, but what happens when the opponent gets around that?
Quick attack? A good set-up but it's not invincible and can be hit out of.
Skull bash? Needs to be charged up, this move is typically ignored unless the user knows they can get away with it.
Thunder? An easy call out move for sure but it's typically used as an edge guard or followup, it's not a move to throw out raw.
So with those moves out we're left with pikachu's tilts, aerials, thunderbolt, and jab.
The question I propose after all that is....do characters have lingering, long lasting hitboxes that can stuff out these options? Squirtle's upb might be considered one but it's easily read and leaves squirtle vulnerable afterwards.

 

[TennisBall]

As having faced pikachu his biggest problem is long-lasting hitboxes with good frame data. Pikachu relies on his quick frame data and easy follow-ups to nail opponents. However pikachu also relies on getting those moves started. They have all the tools needed to do so, so when they CAN'T do that pikachu ends up on his back paw trying to read his opponent to get in. His thunderbolt is good on anyone that can't handle projectile spam and he has a kill throw combo move, but what happens when the opponent gets around that?
Quick attack? A good set-up but it's not invincible and can be hit out of.
Skull bash? Needs to be charged up, this move is typically ignored unless the user knows they can get away with it.
Thunder? An easy call out move for sure but it's typically used as an edge guard or followup, it's not a move to throw out raw.
So with those moves out we're left with pikachu's tilts, aerials, thunderbolt, and jab.
The question I propose after all that is....do characters have lingering, long lasting hitboxes that can stuff out these options? Squirtle's upb might be considered one but it's easily read and leaves squirtle vulnerable afterwards.

Ness comes to mind. He has Magnet to deal with Thunder Jolt and has active aerials if Pikachu jumps, and Pika's not gonna get anything started off of a Forward Tilt, and good luck grabbing a good Ness without a setup.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Better tier-list than the one 35 members of the PGR made:

Public Tier List for Patch 7.0.0

While I was waiting for the PGRUv2 to fill out their tier list (results in thread), I also sent out a public version which got over 600 replies. Here's the result of THAT tier list, which is not really all that different from the PGRUv2's! pic.twitter.com/14xzpBUesx

— Josh / Jaaahsh (@Jaaahsh) February 28, 2020

 

[Rizen]

I hate to break it to you, but going -1 at best to nearly every top tier minus peach/daisy does not spell a "top tier" character. Even better, if you want to use MU theorying as an argument definitely has Shiek beaten in the MU department. only approximately 5 characters are agreed to be losing for sonic according to several of his best players, and even then it's not by much. For example: wrath's MU list (a person who is able to reach top 8 at a giant tournament):

Mind you, this isn't even that unreasonable of a MU chart. Sonic has a ton of versatility in his kit and movement, meaning if he has to play on the offensive, he doesn't do that bad of a job at it if he's playing his mix-up game well, and his defensive game is amazing (due to pretty obvious reasons of just being able to run away from anything in the game). Wrath personally believes Sonic to be a top tier, and while I don't think that is quite true due to having issues killing and being consistent (if not for consistency I'd 100% argue sonic is a top tier), he's definitely got one of the best MU charts in the game. The issue with Sonic mainly lies in that some mus require very taxing amounts of patience, in that against top players you have to get them impatient, which is really, really hard. imo Sonic doesn't struggle against the cast, he struggles against players, and he's unique in that aspect.


EDIT: i also want to add that due to sonic not being that popular/understood, a lot of people really, REALLY underestimate him. He's a character who essentially rewards waiting out players who just throw out moves, in a game where its very, very popular to just throw out moves in neutral and be assumed to be safe. Range is really not that much of an issue for Sonic, because he has decent range himself, while also being able to just footsie around to get closer to the opponent. He also has by far the best movement mix-ups in the game, thanks to his incredible dash speed, his deceptively fast airspeed from his spins, a f4 up b that essentially gets sonic out of any bad pressure, and from DAD in this game, Sonic can cancel his spinshot into a waveland, which is an insanely good mix-up tool against players who are expecting him to fully commit to the spin. This is still ignoring Sonic's good dash-dance game, his instant spin-dash jump, his air spincharge's velocity, and Sonic being able to cancel his spins with double jumps.
Case in point:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

IMO that MU chart's slightly optimistic. I have vs both and as even. The thing about the Sonic MU is it's heavily influenced by stages. On big stages like PS2 Sonic can run away, bait and punish and is very hard to pin down. On smaller stages like BF and SV Sonic's much more manageable. I think that's a big mistake many players make against Sonic (and other characters): letting him go to strong stages.

 

[VenomSnake]

IMO that MU chart's slightly optimistic. I have vs both and as even. The thing about the Sonic MU is it's heavily influenced by stages. On big stages like PS2 Sonic can run away, bait and punish and is very hard to pin down. On smaller stages like BF and SV Sonic's much more manageable. I think that's a big mistake many players make against Sonic (and other characters): letting him go to strong stages.

While you are correct in that BF and SV are Sonic's weaker stages, they tend to always be the stages banned by most sonic players (assuming a 2-stage ban is performed). Maybe in the Link/YL mus they are pretty sided towards the links, but BF is actually not bad for Sonic (Sonix is a Sonic player who frequently counterpicks to bf, and he is PR'd #1 in the DR and is a solid threat when he travels), and Smashville is not that bad for Sonic either (KEN likes to counterpick to this stage as well). You are probably right that it's not good stages for Sonic as the Links, Sonic is pretty versatile and those stages can be good too depending on the playstyle. I wouldn't really say that Sonic's MU is heavily influenced by stages, thats more of a player-specific thing. That being said, they are still his weaker stages (I would never take a swordie to BF, period), although still not bad at all.

 

[SwagGuy99]

Better tier-list than the one 35 members of the PGR made:

Public Tier List for Patch 7.0.0

While I was waiting for the PGRUv2 to fill out their tier list (results in thread), I also sent out a public version which got over 600 replies. Here's the result of THAT tier list, which is not really all that different from the PGRUv2's! pic.twitter.com/14xzpBUesx

— Josh / Jaaahsh (@Jaaahsh) February 28, 2020

One character that I don't think is ever talked about enough is . Looking at this list he's ranked underneath and . I really don't see this character as being that bad. In Smash 4, he was usually considered High Tier and the changes to the engine don't really benefit or hinder him significantly and his direct changes from Smash 4 affected him significantly less than almost any other character:

• Bombs don't bounce off other projectiles.
• Spin attack has more utility both on the ground and in the air.
• B-air is a better combo tool.
• F-smash went from being one of the strongest in the game to one of the weakest but is more consistent.

None of these changes affect his gameplay too much and he still has the tools to do well against most characters, even if it's an uphill battle against some of the better characters. I don't really see Toon Link as a bad character

 

[Tri Knight]

One character that I don't think is ever talked about enough is . Looking at this list he's ranked underneath and . I really don't see this character as being that bad. In Smash 4, he was usually considered High Tier and the changes to the engine don't really benefit or hinder him significantly and his direct changes from Smash 4 affected him significantly less than almost any other character:

• Bombs don't bounce off other projectiles.
• Spin attack has more utility both on the ground and in the air.
• B-air is a better combo tool.
• F-smash went from being one of the strongest in the game to one of the weakest but is more consistent.

None of these changes affect his gameplay too much and he still has the tools to do well against most characters, even if it's an uphill battle against some of the better characters. I don't really see Toon Link as a bad character

I mean was placed in what could be seen as B tier in this list. That's not a bad character placement. Especially when quite a few of those characters in that same tier have proven to be "Top 8 at majors" worthy.

Remember, just because a character isnt 3 placements away from being top tier doesnt mean people are saying he's bad. In Toon Link's case, the lack of big results and the lack of hype he has always been subject to will cause most to not think much of him. In fact, outside of Japan, I think will suffer a similar fate to Toon Link eventually as there's no real notable players I can think of who actually perform heavily with him (aside from T).

That being said idk if I can really agree with that list. A lot of placements seem... suspect. And I really dislike the way it was organized.

 

[Megamang]

Don't get me started on stages, lol. Smash players often let their pride get in the way by winning game 1, losing game 2, then going for the salty runback on the stage their opponent picked for maximum advantage . Stages effect the game in pronounced ways but this is often ignored, I'd land a canceled utilt at Lylat or even a QaC on Lylat and often get met with confusion at weeklies. Of course, smash 4 pikachu at lylat is a really dramatic example of this but think for a moment before you smash that runback decision.


That said... there are definitely outside factors here. Nebulous but undoubtedly real, momentum is something you can reverse or maintain by winning at a stage your opponent picks. Saying definitively "that was a fluke and im going to win this set" in game 3 by winning on their counterpick certainly puts you in a winning situation for the entire set. But I would suggest always going to your best stage on the last game of the set!


My anecdotal experience is that lower tier mains tend to have this down better than top tier players. This makes a lot of sense, top tiers don't tend to do TERRIBLY on any stage, but if your character is unable to reach someone at certain platforms you'll certainly remember it after your Mac gets timed out by Pac Man.


And, with 70 characters, I don't blame anyone for not knowing someone has a trick at a certain stage. After all, I was the only Megaman in CU so how would you know utilt is lagless on the wings, at certain tilts, at certain spacings? And its not like this makes it a blowout, Bayo still wins there anyways.

It depends on how you see smash. A direct faceoff where you have to outplay and the stage is in the background? Where the momentum of the set trumps all? Or is it the kind of close contest where you want to glean every advantage you can possibly get, and squeeze some more out by knowing your and their best stages? Up for debate.

Personally, I like to have co-mains especially during the counterpick phase and pick my character based on both opponent's character availability, and what stage they pick. Nothing feels quite like having a pocket Pika come out when you're a game up and they pick Kalos, you basically get a counterpick for free.

 

[NairWizard]

He's a character who essentially rewards waiting out players who just throw out moves, in a game where its very, very popular to just throw out moves in neutral and be assumed to be safe.

Almost no one just throws out moves at top level. Mashing was popular like 3-4 months ago, but it's fading. The best styles are highly reactive, like Leo's.

The reason that Sonic is so good isn't that he shuts down mashing, but that he shuts down reactive play--you can't react to Sonic if he's reacting to you from even further away.

Wrath at Frostbite wasn't shutting down any mashers; he was shutting down players who were waiting for him to do something, because he just waited a few units past their wait range. That's pretty strong, and I agree that Sonic is another top tier contender because of it. Sonic is one of the most underrated characters in the game.

Mind you, this isn't even that unreasonable of a MU chart

Even if I think Sonic is possibly top tier, this looks completely unreasonable. This chart makes Sonic look like by far the single best character in the entire game, a tier above Joker and Palutena and ZSS. No offense meant, but it's probably literally one of the most unreasonable matchup charts I've ever seen posted in this thread. It’s yet another top player matchup chart that just gives Pikachu and Pichu as the only bad matchups along with one other random character and calls it a day, but it has way more positive matchups against top tiers than normal.

Do people really believe that a third to half of the characters in the game have only 2-3 losing matchups?

What do you guys even define as a "losing" matchup, because at this point I can't imagine what the definition could be other than "-1 means completely hard countered, switch to a counterpick." It seems that as long as a character has some tools in a particular matchup, it's shuffled into even, and if a character has plenty of tools in a particular matchup, it's +1. That.. is not how matchup ratios work, or at least it wasn't.

Back in the brawl days, we would play out -3 matchups and learn counterplay and win them.

In reality you guys are likely playing and winning -1 matchups all the time and so is Leo. Take this in a positive way--you guys are better than you think!

 

[IsmaR]

Before we kick off the monthly Lylat torch & pitchforks session, feel it's worth pointing out that WaDi has been pulling out more and more lately, just having used him to beat Dabuz in final game of winner's finals at Clash of the Carolinas 3 (it was a 3-0 and WaDi used the prior games, but I find it notable given it is a match up I feel many consider heavily in Rosalina's favor). WaDi pulled M2 out again, but to a far worse match up (Kola ) and instantly swapping back to R.O.B. Still had the bracket reset, and it's currently looking rough, but it is among the most notable results (no matter how miniscule it actually contributes) Mewtwo has gotten.

-

That said, same event just had this happen:

this is really rough to see happen to Dabuz, I'm legitimately curious to know what happened here with the snap not working on Lylat Cruisehttps://t.co/VSnEkKdhGw

— Bear (@BearUNLV) March 1, 2020

I'd rather we stay civil here, but it's important enough to take into consideration as any stage decisions/discussions made based on this incident will set the precedent for the rest of the year.

 

[KirbySquad101]

On the subject of MU charts, T posted one about his character a few months back ago:

前バージョンの対キャラダイヤ作りました
わからんキャラは素直にわからんの枠を作った結果わからないキャラだらけでした。よかったら参考にしてね pic.twitter.com/74bIjNT2AO

— Ｔ (@T_SSBU) November 6, 2019

For anyone confused, cross means disadvantage, triangle means slight disadvantage, minus means even, circle means slight advantage, and uuuhh... "^-^" face means advantage.

The more interesting part about his MU chart to me that makes it stand out from other MU chats is that he only ranked a little over half of the cast.

I would like to ask the following question to the Smashboards (no one's obligated to answer): Would you sooner believe this MU chart than the MU chart of any other top level player currently out now?

I do watch a lot at a high level, but even if I didn't, I probably still would, personally because I don't really believe not even top level players have enough experience to confidently rank all 70 characters MU-wise beyond theory crafting. And not to point any fingers, but I feel like most top players tend to look too much towards what THEIR character can do in the MU and not enough towards what the other character can do, which in turn leads to a lot of hyping up their own character while downplaying the opposing character (this ESPECIALLY applies if the opposing character is generally perceived to be mid-tier or worse, just take note at how many top players think their character is +2/+3 against or ). I think a MU spread where a top player is unsure of how his character does against almost half the cast gives a lot of legitimacy towards the basis behind the characters he DOES actually rank.

I am curious to hear others' thoughts on this.

 

[TennisBall]

One character that I don't think is ever talked about enough is . Looking at this list he's ranked underneath and . I really don't see this character as being that bad. In Smash 4, he was usually considered High Tier and the changes to the engine don't really benefit or hinder him significantly and his direct changes from Smash 4 affected him significantly less than almost any other character:

• Bombs don't bounce off other projectiles.
• Spin attack has more utility both on the ground and in the air.
• B-air is a better combo tool.
• F-smash went from being one of the strongest in the game to one of the weakest but is more consistent.

None of these changes affect his gameplay too much and he still has the tools to do well against most characters, even if it's an uphill battle against some of the better characters. I don't really see Toon Link as a bad character

I don't think anyone sees Toon Link as a bad character. Toon Link was arguably the best link before and even with the buffs to Young Link, it's still a possible discussion, if not a less relevant one.
Bowser and Luigi are both excellent characters with incredible results to back up their placements. Ryu may not be played but everyone knows that he's not bad, it's similar to Marth where there's just a better option, and Ryu's case, there might even be two better cases.
Toon Link just doesn't have a lot of represention, at least not in Japan.

 

[Rizen]

On the subject of MU charts, T posted one about his character a few months back ago:

前バージョンの対キャラダイヤ作りました
わからんキャラは素直にわからんの枠を作った結果わからないキャラだらけでした。よかったら参考にしてね pic.twitter.com/74bIjNT2AO

— Ｔ (@T_SSBU) November 6, 2019

For anyone confused, cross means disadvantage, triangle means slight disadvantage, minus means even, circle means slight advantage, and uuuhh... "^-^" face means advantage.

The more interesting part about his MU chart to me that makes it stand out from other MU chats is that he only ranked a little over half of the cast.

I would like to ask the following question to the Smashboards (no one's obligated to answer): Would you sooner believe this MU chart than the MU chart of any other top level player currently out now?

I do watch a lot at a high level, but even if I didn't, I probably still would, personally because I don't really believe not even top level players have enough experience to confidently rank all 70 characters MU-wise beyond theory crafting. And not to point any fingers, but I feel like most top players tend to look too much towards what THEIR character can do in the MU and not enough towards what the other character can do, which in turn leads to a lot of hyping up their own character while downplaying the opposing character (this ESPECIALLY applies if the opposing character is generally perceived to be mid-tier or worse, just take note at how many top players think their character is +2/+3 against or ). I think a MU spread where a top player is unsure of how his character does against almost half the cast gives a lot of legitimacy towards the basis behind the characters he DOES actually rank.

I am curious to hear others' thoughts on this.

It's interesting T sees as an advantage equal to K.Rool for . I've played as Link vs TL and thought that was a terrible MU. TL out camps Link hard and Link has poor tools to approach.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Somewhat hot take is likely the best "swordie character" right now ..yes better than . Even though by his design Roy plays the least like the standard Smash swordie
playing more like close-range brawlers i.e . Wanting to get as in the oppoents face as much aspossible instead of using thier sword to space them out.)

 

[B_Burg]

Single player opinion

Thank you for the clarification.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Here are our PGR'ed events for the weekend. Two C tiers and two B tiers. Not that many events, but it has some strength.


Calyptus Cup X: Powwer Up (B Tier) *Germany regional event
1st: Tarik
2nd: RobinGG
3rd: Sirjon
4th: Young Eevey
5th: Light (Germany)
5th: Longo
7th: Rinor
7th: F-A-!-A
9th: cyve
9th: Honk
9th: wusi
9th: Fani


Super SmashPoint 3 (C Tier) *England regional event
1st: Scr7
2nd: Peli
3rd: Stranger
4th: Naxdy
5th: Willz
5th: Le Goat
7th: UrbanTurban911
7th: SBF
9th: Skarfelt (known for his "Optimizing Fox" series)
9th: Mr. Spuddles
9th: Moke
9th: Bulby


Clash of the Carolinas III (C Tier) *North Carolina regional event
1st: Kola
2nd: WaDi
3rd: Dabuz
4th: Vendetta
5th: RFang
5th: Toast
7th: Peabnut
7th: Fatality
9th: Sonido
9th: Donquavious
9th: Bully
9th: Zaheer
13th: Lazyboredom
13th: Mage
13th: efthymew
13th: Benny&TheJets


Maesuma TOP 2 (B Tier) *Japan national event
1st: Zackray
2nd: Atelier
3rd: Munekin
4th: Yoshidora
5th: Rizeasu (one of the oddest character combos I have seen)
5th: Kuro
7th: Abadango
7th: Repo
9th: KEN
9th: yuzu
9th: Sidarezakura
9th: Kotatsu
13th: Nagare
13th: T
13th: Kome
13th: Mossan
17th: Eim
17th: Komugiko
17th: Pichi
17th: Lv. 1
17th: Wada
17th: Nishiya
17th: tatsutsuyo
17th: Limeman
25th: Choco
25th: Meteo
25th: tk3
25th: Nao
25th: Lunamado
25th: Sigma
25th: shachi
25th: Tsumusuto


The biggest tournament by far is Maesuma. Runner-up ranking wise is Calyptus, but I think think Clash was more stacked.
Not the biggest weekends in the world, but it is not weak either.

That said, same event just had this happen:

this is really rough to see happen to Dabuz, I'm legitimately curious to know what happened here with the snap not working on Lylat Cruisehttps://t.co/VSnEkKdhGw

— Bear (@BearUNLV) March 1, 2020

I'd rather we stay civil here, but it's important enough to take into consideration as any stage decisions/discussions made based on this incident will set the precedent for the rest of the year.

As for Lylat, the comment section of that Twitter thread says that what happened is both a thing and a Lylat thing.

Rosalina bonks a lot with her up B, like a lot. Something like this happened in T&C too, where she would bonk weirdly with the ledge, or get hit by underneath the stage lip, and not recover. This is sort of akin to what happens when you airdodge on to the stage too closely, you would bounce off.

This is also a Lylat thing, because the ledge-box of the stage is actually pretty small, more akin to Melee's ledges than SSB4/Ultimate's ledges. The tilting, as well as glitchy collision, added on to this in SSB4, although tilting is thankfully not a thing than to hazard toggle in Ultimate.

As a result, characters whose recoveries push them fowards and have a ledge hitbox further in front of them of they recover slightly too high or low they miss the ledge entirely. Happens notably with Peach coming from above or Kirby.

— Techless🎩 | 🥀 VGen editing commissionsopen (@SachiCantTech) March 1, 2020

This interaction with Rosalina and Lylat Cruise was also present in SSB4, but more common due to tilting/glitchy ledges.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

There is also Soaked Series going on right no Its an online tourament that is not-RGRranked, but is so freaking stacked competiom this week that would of been an A or S-tier otherwise
With Marss, Samsora, Nairo, Dabuz, VoiD, Goblin, Prodigy, Cosmos, Wrath, recent CotC3 winner Kola and so many more participating in it

 

[NotLiquid]

Mii Gunner's ledge trapping is kind of obscene. I'd go so far as to say this character has top 5 ledge trapping in the entire game.

I usually don't realize it because most players who bother to pick this character default to Charge Blast as the neutral B, but Grenade Launch is kind of dirty and really feels like the secret sauce behind this character. Even as a neutral tool the shield stun is so potent that it essentially nets the player a free grab, it's one of the safest projectiles on-shield in the entire game.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Mii Gunner's ledge trapping is kind of obscene. I'd go so far as to say this character has top 5 ledge trapping in the entire game.

I usually don't realize it because most players who bother to pick this character default to Charge Blast as the neutral B, but Grenade Launch is kind of dirty and really feels like the secret sauce behind this character. Even as a neutral tool the shield stun is so potent that it essentially nets the player a free grab, it's one of the safest projectiles on-shield in the entire game.

The issue with Grenade Launcher is that while it is a decent tool, it leaves Gunner noticeably vulnerable before and after the move launches, and unlike lets say Brawler's Shot Put or Wii Fit's Header, doesn't really stay in the air for that long. Having Charge Shot with you most of the time, a better option, although Grenade Launcher can be more helpful against specific characters who naturally struggles on getting off the ledge (but those characters are typically not that great to begin with).

Grenade Launcher was much better in SSB4, as it had significantly less startup in that game and had the ability to be reversed numerous times before launching. It's increased damage and slightly reduced endlag in Ultimate, does not compensate for it's much higher startup and inability to be reversed, especially since the move still leaves the Gunner vulnerable after launching.

Grenade Launcher was pretty much the go-to neutral special to use for Gunner in SSB4 if they allowed custom moves.

 

[Djmarcus44]

Mii Gunner's ledge trapping is kind of obscene. I'd go so far as to say this character has top 5 ledge trapping in the entire game.

I usually don't realize it because most players who bother to pick this character default to Charge Blast as the neutral B, but Grenade Launch is kind of dirty and really feels like the secret sauce behind this character. Even as a neutral tool the shield stun is so potent that it essentially nets the player a free grab, it's one of the safest projectiles on-shield in the entire game.

You are right about the ledge trapping, but grenades definitely aren't a secret. Out of our best 6 players in terms of results (Katakiri, Aikota, Deon, Pokecheese, Protom, and Tsumusuto) 4 of them use grenades.

The issue with Grenade Launcher is that while it is a decent tool, it leaves Gunner noticeably vulnerable before and after the move launches, and unlike lets say Brawler's Shot Put or Wii Fit's Header, doesn't really stay in the air for that long. Having Charge Shot with you most of the time, a better option, although Grenade Launcher can be more helpful against specific characters who naturally struggles on getting off the ledge (but those characters are typically not that great to begin with).

Grenade Launcher was much better in SSB4, as it had significantly less startup in that game and had the ability to be reversed numerous times before launching. It's increased damage and slightly reduced endlag in Ultimate, does not compensate for it's much higher startup and inability to be reversed, especially since the move still leaves the Gunner vulnerable after launching.

Grenade Launcher was pretty much the go-to neutral special to use for Gunner in SSB4 if they allowed custom moves.

I don't even use grenades myself, but you are underrating the move. Grenades don't leave Gunner very vulnerable after they are fired. The move comes out on frame 36, but it ends on frame 53 (that is a smaller punishable window after a hitbox than some jabs). The grenade can be spaced to prevent people from getting to the ledge to begin with. Getting hit by a grenade while recovering low can easily be a death sentence for most of the cast. Grenades also have great combo potential. https://t.co/hlU2cGJOgS

 

[Lacrimosa]

So, Dabuz also said on his Twitter that it was his own fault, implying that he knows what happened there.

I don't see why Lylat should be banned.
Teleport can bounce off BF "randomly" if you space them wrong and this has happened to Abadango before in a rather important set but we aren't ****talking BF because of that. Instead, it's up to the player to time and/or space the recovery correctly.

Also with Lylat gone, there is another small stage less to counterpick to and that's again going to strengthen characters like Pac-Man who want to have space.

 

[SwagGuy99]

So, Dabuz also said on his Twitter that it was his own fault, implying that he knows what happened there.

According to this source, this issue was caused partially by Lylat and partially by the angle at which Dabuz used Rosa's recovery. So yes, this was partially his fault, but not entirely.

Teleport can bounce off BF "randomly" if you space them wrong and this has happened to Abadango before in a rather important set but we aren't ****talking BF because of that. Instead, it's up to the player to time and/or space the recovery correctly.

Don't have too much to say about the Lylat conversation that probably hasn't been said already, but this is the same reason as to why Unova isn't legal in most places as far as I know. I'm bringing this up for a reason.

Also with Lylat gone, there is another small stage less to counterpick to and that's again going to strengthen characters like Pac-Man who want to have space.

I will say that there are at least two possible replacements for Lylat that aren't legal stages in most places (currently) that do fit the bill for small stages that could be possible counterpicks instead of Lylat:

• Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
• Unova Pokemon League

This is the reason I bring up Unova's teleport issue. I understand that it's similar to PS2 in terms of layout, but is is smaller (both the size of the stage and blastzones) and while teleport recoveries don't work as well as on other stages, they aren't unusable (similarly to some recoveries on Lylat and Battlefield).

Yoshi's Island (Brawl) is similar where it shares a similar layout to another stage (Smashville) and it does have the slopes on the edge which might be an issue for a few characters, but it is another smaller stage that could replace Lylat. It also doesn't have any major issues regarding recoveries as far as I know either which is nice. and the walls on the side do make it more different from Smashville than Unova is from Kalos.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying Lylat needs to be replaced. It's not out of the realm of possibility though and I would be perfectly OK with it being replaced by something reasonable. Replacing it with Unova doesn't solve the recovery issues entirely since teleport recoveries still don't work on that stage and it's a clone of both Kalos and PS2 which are legal stages. However, replacing it with Yoshi's Island (Brawl) does solve the recovery issue but it would also be a clone of an already legal stage and the slopes can lead to some janky interactions.

I'm just trying to point out that there are possible replacements for Lylat, even if they aren't significantly better options and there will be trade-offs no matter whether Lylat stays legal or is replaced.

 

[boysilver400]

This doesn’t just happen with Rosa. And several other characters like recoveries just don’t work consistently on that stage. I honestly thought this was common knowledge.

Plus Lylat is just jank as hell anyway. I think we should get rid of it.

 

[NairWizard]

edit: disregard this post. Sonic timing people out on WiFi isn't worth talking about