Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[BitBitio]

If we incluying ,(who only last year was considered low tier lol) the numbers of character that people want to nerf are very high counting 

The game already have very good diversity on tournaments, nerfing all of these would only piss off all the top players and not improve the game diversity on big majors maybe on your regional or local tournament, buff other lesser characters I would say.

Tbh the powerlevel of the top tiers in this game are midly compared past games and other fighters, just look at Tekken 7 with leroy now that a problem.

So basically, in summary, people want mild to moderate nerfs to , no changes to ,
general QoL and fixes to , and a mixture of moderate buffs and fixes to . Sounds about right.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

It's EVO, y'all.

It's probably the least representative of competitive results of any of major tournament series. Treat it like Umebura XL and you won't be as shook by these upsets.

Also, there could have been more ZSS dominance if Kuro hadn't DQ'd from EVO Japan and Choco and Shky didn't have to team kill.

As a side note, I find it interesting that Samus - with and without armor - both have this sort of of mix-up, adaptation heavy tool-kit. If Ridley's aerials were a bit safer on shield, the whole Metroid team would follow this sort of design schematic.

I think ESAM pointed this out. While ZSS has her crazy mobility and lots of great buttons and burst options that allow her to win exchanges a lot. The fact is she does not to TOO much damage with each neutral win. Well comparative to certain Top or notable high-tier characters or example can take you from 0-50 or even higher if they land the right optimal confirm and/or have stage platorms to help. without arsene is like that too but his flashy drag-down dair combos are all a means to get Arsene.
ZSS is all about mix-ups and conditioning with all her options to come out ahead. Well the fear of Flip-Jump being able to take early stocks is part of it too

 

[Impax]

So basically, in summary, people want mild to moderate nerfs to , no changes to ,
general QoL and fixes to , and a mixture of moderate buffs and fixes to . Sounds about right.

I'd give small buffs to pichu , wii fit, villager, icies and robin. Also metaknight.

 

[KakuCP9]

Friendly reminder that balance changes for a patch aren't thought up in a day or two so even if Sakurai and the dev team go to watch nationals, what they see at said national won't effect the content of the patch since by then, they're either testing the patch or getting ready to roll it out. It's part of the reason why Laura was buffed in SFV despite Idom winning Capcom cup since she hasn't made big waves before that point.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Speaking of balance changes, how many changes do you guys think they are going to apply?

Some things to note:
1) It has been almost 3 months since release, so there is a notable amount of time that has transpired.
2) If we are following the same formula as patches 3.0 and 6.0, we might be getting minimal balance changes at 7.0, but then drop a patch later called 7.1 that will have the bigger changes.

If my second prediction is correct, then 7.1 may contain changes in response to our two S tiered titans this weekend, especially EVO Japan (since Sakurai was there in person). If that were the case, there is a chance that Olimar's shield may be changed (or not because the character won the event) and that Shulk's Monado change out of hitstun be changed as well (despite it being in the tips).

I still remember the dev team nerfing and 's latter combos at patch 1.1.5 in response of Sakurai witnessing Nairo and Abadango, respectively, using them in grand finals of Niconico Tokaigi 2016. He was there at the event.
We all know the tragedy of as well.

 

[Rizen]

Ness had Top 20 Results on Orion Stats. Is he top tier. God no.

How big a top tier are we talking about? I wouldn't put top 20 results character in top tier but I would put in high tier. Ness is a great example of a character who keeps pulling and pulling yet gets underrated constantly. ROB's another. I was saying Palutena's top 5 a year ago because she popped up everywhere in results. Nobody recognized her Until Nairo started beating MKLeo. People get all excited to see a character sweep good players but a lot of that depends on having a top player behind the character. We need Ness to have a break out so he's taken seriously.

 

[TennisBall]

How big a top tier are we talking about? I wouldn't put top 20 results character in top tier but I would put in high tier. Ness is a great example of a character who keeps pulling and pulling yet gets underrated constantly. ROB's another. I was saying Palutena's top 5 a year ago because she popped up everywhere in results. Nobody recognized her Until Nairo started beating MKLeo. People get all excited to see a character sweep good players but a lot of that depends on having a top player behind the character. We need Ness to have a break out so he's taken seriously.

In terms of Ness, our best chance for a break out is Gackt.

Awestin's super good but doesn't go to anything noteworthy 90% of the time.

BestNess quit.

FOW has fallen off to a noticeable degree.

ATATA and Lumbre don't go to enough/just aren't good enough.
I'm probably forgetting some others.

 

[boysilver400]

In terms of Ness, our best chance for a break out is Gackt.

Awestin's super good but doesn't go to anything noteworthy 90% of the time.

BestNess quit.

FOW has fallen off to a noticeable degree.

ATATA and Lumbre don't go to enough/just aren't good enough.
I'm probably forgetting some others.

European Ness' S1 and PEW are pretty decent, but they don't get to travel much either

PEW got 13th at VCA and S1 got top 8 at Albion 4

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

In terms of Ness, our best chance for a break out is Gackt.

Awestin's super good but doesn't go to anything noteworthy 90% of the time.

BestNess quit.

FOW has fallen off to a noticeable degree.

ATATA and Lumbre don't go to enough/just aren't good enough.
I'm probably forgetting some others.

FOW hasn’t fallen off, he’s still as good if not just as good as he was in 4. He chooses not to travel and just farms locals instead and honestly when your the best player in your region and you don’t have aspirations to travel I don’t blame him. Traveling around the country isn’t cheap without a sponsor especially when you aren’t the handful of players that can make money at tournaments to justify going across the country every month.

BestNess hasn’t retired he decided to keep playing. Awestin is good but once people stop getting blinded by the fact he can beat ESAM they’ll realize he wasn’t the one to watch when it came to Ness.

Gackt and to a lesser extent BN are the ones to watch at the biggest tournaments. Lumbre, PEW, ATATA and S1 are those to watch as well but they are regional locked as well.

As far as a breakout, Gackt’s 9th at Evo Japan is kinda a pretty big deal even if it was Evo so you had Best of three’s well too late into bracket it’s not like he had a easy bracket. Had to overcome players like Etsuji (Lucina MU), Kie and Masashi. 9th with solo Ness is pretty impressive.

But anyways regarding balance changes what I wanted to discuss originally on I just wanted to drop that Ness information as well. A thing to keep in mind is we are getting DLC until 2021 at the minimum unless Nintendo decided to get Sakurai on more DLC so we will have balance changes and support all throughout 2020 like we had in 2019. I wouldn’t expect major changes with how much time we have left until development on Ultimate stops. It gives the developers plenty of time to really analyze whatever it is they use to make the determination things need to be changed and implement them slowly. (I have serious reservations they just look at tournament results and not a factor of plenty of other feedback and testing.) This is great because we will have any developments in the meta that need to be addressed (both good and bad) be more likely to be addressed because it will take time before the game is figured out fully. Unless something just winds up being flat out broken (See emergency Bayo patch (yeah we know it didn’t work as well as it should had)) or the developers see something they just think needs to be changed immediately I wouldn’t expect a lot out of 7.0


Of course I could be completely wrong, Sakurai is an enigma sometimes, lol.

 

[TennisBall]

FOW hasn’t fallen off, he’s still as good if not just as good as he was in 4. He chooses not to travel and just farms locals instead and honestly when your the best player in your region and you don’t have aspirations to travel I don’t blame him. Traveling around the country isn’t cheap without a sponsor especially when you aren’t the handful of players that can make money at tournaments to justify going across the country every month.

BestNess hasn’t retired he decided to keep playing. Awestin is good but once people stop getting blinded by the fact he can beat ESAM they’ll realize he wasn’t the one to watch when it came to Ness.

Gackt and to a lesser extent BN are the ones to watch at the biggest tournaments. Lumbre, PEW, ATATA and S1 are those to watch as well but they are regional locked as well.

As far as a breakout, Gackt’s 9th at Evo Japan is kinda a pretty big deal even if it was Evo so you had Best of three’s well too late into bracket it’s not like he had a easy bracket. Had to overcome players like Etsuji (Lucina MU), Kie and Masashi. 9th with solo Ness is pretty impressive.

But anyways regarding balance changes what I wanted to discuss originally on I just wanted to drop that Ness information as well. A thing to keep in mind is we are getting DLC until 2021 at the minimum unless Nintendo decided to get Sakurai on more DLC so we will have balance changes and support all throughout 2020 like we had in 2019. I wouldn’t expect major changes with how much time we have left until development on Ultimate stops. It gives the developers plenty of time to really analyze whatever it is they use to make the determination things need to be changed and implement them slowly. (I have serious reservations they just look at tournament results and not a factor of plenty of other feedback and testing.) This is great because we will have any developments in the meta that need to be addressed (both good and bad) be more likely to be addressed because it will take time before the game is figured out fully. Unless something just winds up being flat out broken (See emergency Bayo patch (yeah we know it didn’t work as well as it should had)) or the developers see something they just think needs to be changed immediately I wouldn’t expect a lot out of 7.0


Of course I could be completely wrong, Sakurai is an enigma sometimes, lol.

Thank you for the corrections. I'm glad BestNess decided to keep playing.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Tbh considering as was mentioned in a previous post that the PT's are dropping off in results I don't think PT needs any nerfs despite being top tier, his pokemon each have glaring weaknesses that are easily exploited not to mention the escape option can easily be baited and attacked. PT is fine as is.

 

[Megamang]

GaW... isn't oppressive at the top. Or anywhere really. It just a few of his options are oppressive. You have characters that basically cannot contest his shield, even the top tier best shield pressure characters really take a ton of damage through the match for hitting like a retreating bair slightly mispaced, which no one can do as safely. Well, sure that can be his thing, characters are supposed to be unique after all, but don't be surprised that people find it frustrating. Add in the punish he gets off of it, dsmash bury kills, usmash clanking your things... bacon at the ledge...


Ok. But then it all goes well and you get d-throw 9-hammered =]

 

[The_Bookworm]

Tbh considering as was mentioned in a previous post that the PT's are dropping off in results I don't think PT needs any nerfs despite being top tier, his pokemon each have glaring weaknesses that are easily exploited not to mention the escape option can easily be baited and attacked. PT is fine as is.

Pokemon Trainer's case is weird. The Trainer still has very solid results from players like Puppeh, Pandarian, Ned, HIKARU, and Leffen (whenever he feels like competing), the main thing that made him be considered a top 3 character in the past was mainly thanks to Tweek. Tweek obtained top 3 results with the character, almost winning EVO 2019 almost exclusively with Trainer. However, he doesn't really play with him anymore in favor of Wario, and other secondaries like Wolf and Roy.

Wishes and Zackray not really using the character anymore doesn't entirely help.

Still a great character, with a great amount of representation in especially lower/mid levels of play to back that up.

FOW hasn’t fallen off, he’s still as good if not just as good as he was in 4. He chooses not to travel and just farms locals instead and honestly when your the best player in your region and you don’t have aspirations to travel I don’t blame him. Traveling around the country isn’t cheap without a sponsor especially when you aren’t the handful of players that can make money at tournaments to justify going across the country every month.

BestNess hasn’t retired he decided to keep playing. Awestin is good but once people stop getting blinded by the fact he can beat ESAM they’ll realize he wasn’t the one to watch when it came to Ness.

Gackt and to a lesser extent BN are the ones to watch at the biggest tournaments. Lumbre, PEW, ATATA and S1 are those to watch as well but they are regional locked as well.

As far as a breakout, Gackt’s 9th at Evo Japan is kinda a pretty big deal even if it was Evo so you had Best of three’s well too late into bracket it’s not like he had a easy bracket. Had to overcome players like Etsuji (Lucina MU), Kie and Masashi. 9th with solo Ness is pretty impressive.

Nice summary. I think Fall PGRU 2019 is the first time since early SSB4 where there is two Ness players ranked top 50 in the world. Judging from this weekend with BestNess' and especially Gackt's performances indicates that the momentum is still keeping on going.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anyways, where a strong character is on the upper tiers precisely has nowadays become very disputable. You would think a strong character very highly, but that would mean that a strong character someone else thinks highly of will get pushed downwards in your mind.

Judging from our posts in SmashBoards, the common contenders for top 5 among us are, in no particular order:
and maybe

Outside of them, our ideas on who else is ranked below the above mentioned characters flip-flops all over the place (and even with Pikachu and Snake, emphasis on the 'maybe' part). Some players think G&W is top 10, while others think he isn't that high in favor of other characters.

I am not sure why I wrote this. Just something to put in mind, I guess. There is a chance that what I just put down may change tomorrow when 7.0 rolls out. Maybe they will fix Olimar's shield, which may propel the character back to a top 10 contender.

Who knows?

 

[BitBitio]

Pokemon Trainer's case is weird. The Trainer still has very solid results from players like Puppeh, Pandarian, Ned, HIKARU, and Leffen (whenever he feels like competing), the main thing that made him be considered a top 3 character in the past was mainly thanks to Tweek. Tweek obtained top 3 results with the character, almost winning EVO 2019 almost exclusively with Trainer. However, he doesn't really play with him anymore in favor of Wario, and other secondaries like Wolf and Roy.

Wishes and Zackray not really using the character anymore doesn't entirely help.

Still a great character, with a great amount of representation in especially lower/mid levels of play to back that up.


Nice summary. I think Fall PGRU 2019 is the first time since early SSB4 where there is two Ness players ranked top 50 in the world. Judging from this weekend with BestNess' and especially Gackt's performances indicates that the momentum is still keeping on going.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anyways, where a strong character is on the upper tiers precisely has nowadays become very disputable. You would think a strong character very highly, but that would mean that a strong character someone else thinks highly of will get pushed downwards in your mind.

Judging from our posts in SmashBoards, the common contenders for top 5 among us are, in no particular order:
and maybe

Outside of them, our ideas on who else is ranked below the above mentioned characters flip-flops all over the place (and even with Pikachu and Snake, emphasis on the 'maybe' part). Some players think G&W is top 10, while others think he isn't that high in favor of other characters.

I am not sure why I wrote this. Just something to put in mind, I guess. There is a chance that what I just put down may change tomorrow when 7.0 rolls out. Maybe they will fix Olimar's shield, which may propel the character back to a top 10 contender.

Who knows?

Mostly agree, but I would put Snake up there in place of ZSS. I’d say she’s just short of the top, held back by her riskier grab game and lower reward off of them, meaning getting combos for her is more complicated IMHO.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Judging from our posts in SmashBoards, the common contenders for top 5 among us are, in no particular order:
and maybe

You forgot Inkling, who is an incredibly strong and versatile character with busted moves, one of the best recoveries in the game, and who actually beats several other top tiers, while mostly losing to less common characters.

One could make a case for Shulk as well, I suppose. I see him occasionally on tier lists, I'm not convinced he's quite top 5 but top 10 seems pretty likely.

I've seen people put Lucina in top 5 but at this point I'm not even sure she's top 10, there's so much competition and her top tier MU spread isn't all that special (for a top tier). Still top tier and very solid.

 

[Lacrimosa]

In terms of Ness, our best chance for a break out is Gackt.

Awestin's super good but doesn't go to anything noteworthy 90% of the time.

BestNess quit.

FOW has fallen off to a noticeable degree.

ATATA and Lumbre don't go to enough/just aren't good enough.
I'm probably forgetting some others.

FOW, as mentioned by others, farms his region which is Vegas.
And Vegas has Ven and Dakpo who place really well at every major they go to. So you can imagine that FOW would do great if he goes to more tournaments. However, he says that he has poor MU knowledge due to his lack of traveling (He "only" placed 65th at EVO).

Will be interesting how Vegas will develop since MVD will move there soon.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Speaking of Dakpo, he's really making Diddy work, despite all the short comings. Performing the infinity in tournament play is pretty damn huge. I think Diddy now should be classified as a lower High Tier. It's definitely possible to score high with Diddy, he just loses to characters faster than him, with better combos and better neutral. If those aspects could be made stronger with buffs this next patch, Diddy could run for Top Tier again.

As for nerfs, I do think there's some coming for Top Tiers. Mainly Joker, Palutena and Wario. I think those are easily the best in the game. Peach will maybe get some nerfs to her aerials too. I don't expect Pikachu to get touched at all, because ESAM is the only one making results with the character.

 

[NotLiquid]

You forgot Inkling, who is an incredibly strong and versatile character with busted moves, one of the best recoveries in the game, and who actually beats several other top tiers, while mostly losing to less common characters.

I may be less confident in ROB being the closest thing to an unwinnable matchup for Inkling now than I was several months ago but I still think Inkling gets ever so slightly power crept against Wario for me to confidently say she's anywhere in the top 5. There's also the fact that G&W is quickly proving to be a problem for anyone that doesn't have at least something resembling a sword, which Inkling only really has via BAir (honestly if Cosmos does pick up Pikachu I'm not that sure what MUs he hopes it's going to help him with much; the two have a pretty similar gameplan and MU spread). In the event that any of those two characters get mild nerfs to their ability to escape shield pressure - which I'm not banking on - I think I'd be more inclined to believe the claim but right now I think she's relatively steadfast as a Top 6-10 candidate at best.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

EDIT: Wrong thread
EDIT 2

Speaking of Dakpo, he's really making Diddy work, despite all the short comings. Performing the infinity in tournament play is pretty damn huge. I think Diddy now should be classified as a lower High Tier. It's definitely possible to score high with Diddy, he just loses to characters faster than him, with better combos and better neutral. If those aspects could be made stronger with buffs this next patch, Diddy could run for Top Tier again.

As for nerfs, I do think there's some coming for Top Tiers. Mainly Joker, Palutena and Wario. I think those are easily the best in the game. Peach will maybe get some nerfs to her aerials too. I don't expect Pikachu to get touched at all, because ESAM is the only one making results with the character.

At the same time, people managed to get Pichu, K.Rool and Smash 4 Little Mac nerfed by complaining loud enough despite the characters not being an issue so Pika wouldn't be safe just because of that I feel

 

[NotLiquid]

Reddit created a combined average tier list based on the tier lists that notable top pros (ESAM, Glutonny, Raito, Mr. R, Zackray, Pandarian, etc.) put out during the November-December period. A few of them were in January but all of them are pre-Genesis. Just an average look at popular perception now that we're transitioning to a new patch. Methodology in the link below.

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/euss2e/final_patch_611_average_pro_tier_list_before_the/

With the benefit of hindsight it'd be fair to argue ZSS, Mario and G&W will probably have seen enough of a rise in perception that I imagine they'd gain from most people's average tier lists. Conversely echoing most people's concerns with PT's trajectory I suspect they may slip down from the borderline depending on how much of their current performance is statistical noise.

Yoshi is an interesting one; despite the fact that his representation comes across as muted in the osmosis he ranks higher on most people's tier lists compared to characters like Ken, Duck Hunt, Samus and Rosalina who have had relatively strong placings at a top competitive level. It actually reflects his S2 OrionStats placing remarkably well, where he placed #21. I actually never knew he was so consistently repped. The biggest outlier between results and perception is pros placing him over Ness. Despite ubiquity, it seems people generally only have an average opinion of the kid.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Top-players are really underselling chars like Villager or Zelda who have very good peaks with kept an Ven. Same might go for D3 and Zaki but I haven't heard of him in a long time...?
Yeah, results aren't everything but some people are placing them in the same tier or below chars like Ganon which is kinda murky.

Like, these chars are more relevant in an S/A-tier tournament than the chars that are in the same tier.

 

[Impax]

Top-players are really underselling chars like Villager or Zelda who have very good peaks with kept an Ven. Same might go for D3 and Zaki but I haven't heard of him in a long time...?
Yeah, results aren't everything but some people are placing them in the same tier or below chars like Ganon which is kinda murky.

Like, these chars are more relevant in an S/A-tier tournament than the chars that are in the same tier.

I'm not too high on king dedede. Not the worst character but the results are relatively middling.

Zaki got 65th at the last evo japan. Usually places around 25--33rd at umbera and is ranking like 39th in Japan.

The other reps I know of are atomsk, addy and peli. Atomsk got 65th at genesis but only 129th at let's make big moves. Addy hasnt done that well lately I dont think. Peli has been doing good though. Coming off a 9th at vallaha 3.

But those results dont look all that different to me than zelda, incineroar or bowser Jr.

 

[BitBitio]

Reddit created a combined average tier list based on the tier lists that notable top pros (ESAM, Glutonny, Raito, Mr. R, Zackray, Pandarian, etc.) put out during the November-December period. A few of them were in January but all of them are pre-Genesis. Just an average look at popular perception now that we're transitioning to a new patch. Methodology in the link below.

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/euss2e/final_patch_611_average_pro_tier_list_before_the/

With the benefit of hindsight it'd be fair to argue ZSS, Mario and G&W will probably have seen enough of a rise in perception that I imagine they'd gain from most people's average tier lists. Conversely echoing most people's concerns with PT's trajectory I suspect they may slip down from the borderline depending on how much of their current performance is statistical noise.

Yoshi is an interesting one; despite the fact that his representation comes across as muted in the osmosis he ranks higher on most people's tier lists compared to characters like Ken, Duck Hunt, Samus and Rosalina who have had relatively strong placings at a top competitive level. It actually reflects his S2 OrionStats placing remarkably well, where he placed #21. I actually never knew he was so consistently repped. The biggest outlier between results and perception is pros placing him over Ness. Despite ubiquity, it seems people generally only have an average opinion of the kid.

Oh my GOSH. I hate tier lists. I’d rather wait for the meta to unfold before people make these. Like, this one is literally just a clickbait-based average.

It does give us a bit more insight, and I don’t mind them getting posted here too much, but...
It means pretty much nothing at this point.

 

[NotLiquid]

Oh my GOSH. I hate tier lists. I’d rather wait for the meta to unfold before people make these. Like, this one is literally just a clickbait-based average.

It does give us a bit more insight, and I don’t mind them getting posted here too much, but...
It means pretty much nothing at this point.

A lot of what is posted here "means pretty much nothing" in the grand scheme of things. Especially a post like this.

The meta is always "unfolding". It stands a good chance at having a shakeup today depending on what the new character and balance patch has in store. Looking back and seeing how pros feel about the current state of things before that happens and contrasting that with current results is just as valid of a topic of discussion as any.

 

[BitBitio]

A lot of what is posted here "means pretty much nothing" in the grand scheme of things. Especially a post like this.

The meta is always "unfolding". It stands a good chance at having a shakeup today depending on what the new character and balance patch has in store. Looking back and seeing how pros feel about the current state of things before that happens and contrasting that with current results is just as valid of a topic of discussion as any.

That’s why I said I don’t really mind them being posted here. I was just pointing out that tier lists aren’t really particularly relevant at really any stage of the metagame until it has some more time to age. But I will say, “the grand scheme of things” isn’t the topic of this thread either. That’s why I wasn’t talking about it. That being said, thanks for keeping this thread on track. My bad.

 

[Lacrimosa]

I'm not too high on king dedede. Not the worst character but the results are relatively middling.

Zaki got 65th at the last evo japan. Usually places around 25--33rd at umbera and is ranking like 39th in Japan.

The other reps I know of are atomsk, addy and peli. Atomsk got 65th at genesis but only 129th at let's make big moves. Addy hasnt done that well lately I dont think. Peli has been doing good though. Coming off a 9th at vallaha 3.

But those results dont look all that different to me than zelda, incineroar or bowser Jr.

Zelda gets at least 33rd or better everytime Ven attends and he also beats PGR players like Elegant for that. Speaking of Incineroar, Ven also 3-0'd Magister this Genesis.
I don't know, these results look more like E or D tier to me, meaning mid-tier. Where we have chars like Samus, Duck-Hunt and Ness who all have very good results.

 

[Impax]

Zelda gets at least 33rd or better everytime Ven attends and he also beats PGR players like Elegant for that. Speaking of Incineroar, Ven also 3-0'd Magister this Genesis.
I don't know, these results look more like E or D tier to me, meaning mid-tier. Where we have chars like Samus, Duck-Hunt and Ness who all have very good results.

Duck hunt and ness have far better results though. Best case I would put her in the same tier with wii fit. Another character thr regularly places around 33rd at super majors. That said my issues arent just her results but her hit boxes and speed. Of course my views could just be tainted because I follow meru. And even though he secondaries her, he has a pretty low opinion on her.

 

[NotLiquid]

Leo is going back to playing "counterpick" style and - other than trying out Byleth - is seemingly eyeing G&W.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[Nekoo]

Leo is going back to playing "counterpick" style and - other than trying out Byleth - is seemingly eyeing G&W.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Mkleo having a counterpick is probably even more scary than him just having Joker, that man could probably use any character and still arrive in top 20 PGR no matter what. So I'm very interested in what the future hold for him, and if Byleth will end up being what he needs or not, or if he'll use his Ike once again, or Lucina/Marth

 

[Lacrimosa]

Duck hunt and ness have far better results though. Best case I would put her in the same tier with wii fit. Another character thr regularly places around 33rd at super majors. That said my issues arent just her results but her hit boxes and speed. Of course my views could just be tainted because I follow meru. And even though he secondaries her, he has a pretty low opinion on her.

Oh, I don't compare her results to Duck-Hunt and Ness and Samus, however my argument is that they seem to low for their respective results as well.
Sorry for expressing this poorly.

 

[Idon]

or if he'll use his Ike once again

I highly doubt anyone is going to be using Ike in this point of the meta. A character that's such combo-food, lacks mobility, burst options, an exploitable recovery, and whatever else I forgot, probably just isn't going to be a worthwhile pick for Leo anymore, good as Leo is.

 

[Impax]

Oh, I don't compare her results to Duck-Hunt and Ness and Samus, however my argument is that they seem to low for their respective results as well.
Sorry for expressing this poorly.

Ah I understand now. Personally, I dont think being low tier means you have no viability (except maybe jigglypuff). Just look at little mac who is at the bottom of the tier list yet has pretty good results in japan.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Ah I understand now. Personally, I dont think being low tier means you have no viability (except maybe jigglypuff). Just look at little mac who is at the bottom of the tier list yet has pretty good results in japan.

Tbh. I don't think Little Mac belongs there at all.
Yes, he is probably on the lower side but he isn'T a godawful character. He still has "limit" and he will catch you if you're facing a somewhat competent player (Zero's "showcase" of Mac is a bad joke tbh.). But he'S very easily exploitable and therefore he will struggle more and more as the meta goes on. I think this very good Mac from Japan got upsetted quite early at EVO Japan this time or the player could have had a bad day which happens. I think he's still low-tier but not bottom-tier, like Ganondorf.

 

[Dream Cancel]

My belief is no character is in this game is OP.

Joker isn't some unstoppable character who steamrolls anyone he comes across. It certainly didn't look like MKLeo was having an easy time with anyone, same with all the other players.

Speaking of Dakpo, he's really making Diddy work, despite all the short comings. Performing the infinity in tournament play is pretty damn huge. I think Diddy now should be classified as a lower High Tier. It's definitely possible to score high with Diddy, he just loses to characters faster than him, with better combos and better neutral. If those aspects could be made stronger with buffs this next patch, Diddy could run for Top Tier again.

I think Dakpo is the one with all the attention on him. If you watched his set against Gluto, Dakpo played well, but him getting an infinite + Gluto missing two Wafts is a pretty big deal. Gluto didn't miss his set-ending Waft against Nairo and he won because of it.

I can agree with your conclusion of Diddy's classification, only because Dakpo isn't the only one showing up with Diddy though.

Reddit created a combined average tier list based on the tier lists that notable top pros (ESAM, Glutonny, Raito, Mr. R, Zackray, Pandarian, etc.) put out during the November-December period. A few of them were in January but all of them are pre-Genesis. Just an average look at popular perception now that we're transitioning to a new patch. Methodology in the link below.

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/euss2e/final_patch_611_average_pro_tier_list_before_the/

With the benefit of hindsight it'd be fair to argue ZSS, Mario and G&W will probably have seen enough of a rise in perception that I imagine they'd gain from most people's average tier lists. Conversely echoing most people's concerns with PT's trajectory I suspect they may slip down from the borderline depending on how much of their current performance is statistical noise.

Yoshi is an interesting one; despite the fact that his representation comes across as muted in the osmosis he ranks higher on most people's tier lists compared to characters like Ken, Duck Hunt, Samus and Rosalina who have had relatively strong placings at a top competitive level. It actually reflects his S2 OrionStats placing remarkably well, where he placed #21. I actually never knew he was so consistently repped. The biggest outlier between results and perception is pros placing him over Ness. Despite ubiquity, it seems people generally only have an average opinion of the kid.

Based on the discrepancy of OrionStats and any tier list, someone could make a video series of "Overrated and Underrated" characters, in my opinion. Of course, there would be varying degrees of certainty for some placings (character representation being a big one).

 

[Impax]

Tbh. I don't think Little Mac belongs there at all.
Yes, he is probably on the lower side but he isn'T a godawful character. He still has "limit" and he will catch you if you're facing a somewhat competent player (Zero's "showcase" of Mac is a bad joke tbh.). But he'S very easily exploitable and therefore he will struggle more and more as the meta goes on. I think this very good Mac from Japan got upsetted quite early at EVO Japan this time or the player could have had a bad day which happens. I think he's still low-tier but not bottom-tier, like Ganondorf.

Little mac definitely has some good jank alongside his ground game. I think your referring to either Gaia or gain. Or maybe yaminabe. None of them placed all that well. Their most consistent mac is probably tarkatori who didnt go. Honestly crazy how many good little mac's they have.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Little mac definitely has some good jank alongside his ground game. I think your referring to either Gaia or gain. Or maybe yaminabe. None of them placed all that well. Their most consistent mac is probably tarkatori who didnt go. Honestly crazy how many good little mac's they have.

But tarakotori went to EVO Japan:
https://smash.gg/tournament/evo-japan-2020/attendee/3802005

 

[Impax]

But tarakotori went to EVO Japan:
https://smash.gg/tournament/evo-japan-2020/attendee/3802005

Oh your right. That does surprise me. Didnt think he went. Guess yaminabe did the best 97th)

 

[KirbySquad101]

Going for as a counterpick makes sense when looking through the lens of MKLeo himself; aside from Marss, Samsora and ESAM are the next two players who tend to give him the hardest time in brackets.

Reddit created a combined average tier list based on the tier lists that notable top pros (ESAM, Glutonny, Raito, Mr. R, Zackray, Pandarian, etc.) put out during the November-December period. A few of them were in January but all of them are pre-Genesis. Just an average look at popular perception now that we're transitioning to a new patch. Methodology in the link below.

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/euss2e/final_patch_611_average_pro_tier_list_before_the/

With the benefit of hindsight it'd be fair to argue ZSS, Mario and G&W will probably have seen enough of a rise in perception that I imagine they'd gain from most people's average tier lists. Conversely echoing most people's concerns with PT's trajectory I suspect they may slip down from the borderline depending on how much of their current performance is statistical noise.

Yoshi is an interesting one; despite the fact that his representation comes across as muted in the osmosis he ranks higher on most people's tier lists compared to characters like Ken, Duck Hunt, Samus and Rosalina who have had relatively strong placings at a top competitive level. It actually reflects his S2 OrionStats placing remarkably well, where he placed #21. I actually never knew he was so consistently repped. The biggest outlier between results and perception is pros placing him over Ness. Despite ubiquity, it seems people generally only have an average opinion of the kid.

I think an aggregate tier list is an interesting way of looking at how a character is currently perceived by the highest percentile of players. Another interesting idea to look at is just how much player opinions tend to vary when looking at a specific character; to illustrate this, here's a list regarding the standard deviation values of characters (based on the aggregate tier list NotLiquid posted):

There is a few problems with this list, namely the fact that some lists aren't ordered and instead use "averages" of each tier rank, for their tier rankings. This applies to Abadango's, ZeRo's, and Raito's lists. In other words, aside from his Top Tier category, there's only four numbers used for ZeRo's ranking that are given to every character not in his Top Tier section: 14.5, 33, 60.5, 75. Raito's also follows a similar pattern: The only numbers assigned to each character from Raito's tier list are: 3, 18, 44, 62.5, 70, and 73.5. This causes standard deviation values of certain characters to jump through the roof as a result of this.

- Almost every character perceived to be a mid/upper-hig or top tier (according to the aggregate tier list) has a value of 6.0 or lower; only major exception to this is , who only has such a high std. deviation score because ZeRo placed him in "33" category, while Raito had him placed in the "44" category.

- sits at an all time low of 1.1 for his standard deviation, as he's almost always placed 1st, and the lowest he was ever placed in was Top 4. follows a similar pattern, as she was always placed in Top 7 or higher. has a much higher standard deviation compared to the two, both because of Raito having him at the "18" rank, and Gluttony placing him at 11th, which is by far the lowest anyone's placed him at.

- and have the highest deviations out of any character in terms of placements. The former went as high as 13th courtesy of Zackray's tier list, and went as low as 58th due to Mr. R's placement. This is to be expected as a lot of stock on Marth's placement chalks up to whether or not you consider him being outclassed by to be important. WFT is a much bigger mystery, however: Pandarian has her as high as 23rd, while Zackray has her sitting as low as 67th. Opinions of the character just seem all over the place; Abadango, Zackray, and ZeRo all view her as bad, Mr. R, Pandarian, and BestNess all view her as good, and the rest currently sits in the middle.

- Most characters that are considered to hover around the mid tier/lower high tier section (according to the aggregate tier list) sit between 6 and 13 point deviation. It is clear that where to place these characters is a much greater feat than the ones that have a strong presence/peak at a higher level.

- The characters with a deviation value of 6.0.0 or lower that are perceived as low tier or worse in the aggregate tier list are and .

TLDR: Trying to come up with an official tier list still seems very had right now lol.

 

[Impax]

Going for as a counterpick makes sense; aside from Marss, Samsora and ESAM are the next two players who tend to give him the hardest time in brackets.

I think an aggregate tier list is an interesting way of looking at how a character is currently perceived by the highest percentile of players. Another interesting idea to look at is just how much player opinions tend to vary when looking at a specific character; to illustrate this, here's a list regarding the standard deviation values of characters:

View attachment 260013

There is a few problems with this list, namely the fact that some lists aren't ordered and instead use "averages" of each tier rank, for their tier rankings. This applies to Abadango's, ZeRo's, and Raito's lists. In other words, aside from his Top Tier category, there's only four numbers used for ZeRo's ranking that are given to every character not in his Top Tier section: 14.5, 33, 60.5, 75. Raito's also follows a similar pattern: The only numbers assigned to each character from Raito's tier list are: 3, 18, 44, 62.5, 70, and 73.5. This causes standard deviation values of certain characters to jump through the roof as a result of this.

- Almost every perceived high/top tier character has a value of 6.0 or lower; only major exception to this is , who only has such a high std. deviation score because ZeRo placed him in "33" category, while Raito had him placed in the "44" ranking category.

- sits at an all time low of 1.1 for his standard deviation, as he's almost always placed 1st, and the lowest he was ever placed in was Top 4. follows a similar pattern, as she was always placed in Top 7 or higher. has a much standard deviation compared to the two, both because of Raito having him at the "18" rank, and Gluttony placing him at 11th, which is by far the lowest anyone's place him at.

- and have the highest deviations out of any character in terms of placements. The former went as high as 13th courtesy of Zackray's tier list, and went as low as 58th due to Mr. R's placement. This is to be expected as a lot of stock on whether or not Marth is a good character chalks up to comparisons drawn between him and . WFT is a much bigger mystery, however: Pandarian has her as high as 23rd, while Zackray has her sitting as low as 67th. Opinions of the character just seem all over the place; Abadango, Zackray, and ZeRo all view her as bad, Mr. R, Pandarian, and BestNess all view her as good, and the rest currently sits in the middle.

- Most characters that are considered to hover around the mid tier/lower high tier section sit between 6 and 13 point deviation. It is clear that where to place these characters is a much greater feat than the ones that have a strong presence/peak at a higher level.

- The characters with a deviation value of 6.0.0 or lower that are perceived as low tier or worse in the aggregate tier list are and .

TLDR: Trying to come up with an official tier list still seems very had right now lol.

I really like this ! Honestly more informative than a tier list.

Wiifittrainer isnt that suprising, shes a very explosive character with substantial limitations. So shes suceltible to make suprising upsets.
On the other hand, players outside of north america have very little exposure to her. Very few top reps exist in Europe or Japan.
(Which makes mr. R surprising to me)

Sinogara is Europe's best wii fit, and I dont believe he is ranked in France. Only nationally ranked ones are in the smaller regions of switzerland and sweden. Japans best is probably kerogutchi who was seeded below 200 at evo. Finally I imagine wadi using her has some effect too.
In other words a lot of disparate factors that are going to shape peoples opinion of her depending on what their exposure to her is.

I'm more curious about the reasoning iplayers deviate so much on jigglypuff and mii swordfighter.

Edit: tried to clean up my thoughts

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I highly doubt anyone is going to be using Ike in this point of the meta. A character that's such combo-food, lacks mobility, burst options, an exploitable recovery, and whatever else I forgot, probably just isn't going to be a worthwhile pick for Leo anymore, good as Leo is.

And yet he's still one of the, potentially the, best counter to G&W. And one of the better options against Olimar. And is good against Snake.

Despite his downsides, Ike still has a lot of good matchups in the high/top tier range. Solo Ike is an uphill climb, but counterpicking with him would be pretty solid. Particularly if G&W gets more popular.