Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[QualityQ]

I see a lot of discussion on nerfs, so I figured I'd make a post based on the buffs:

Falcon got buffed, but it's nothing too drastic. The side-special bugginess is mostly gone, uptilt is a bit more useful, and fair/bair are more rewarding. Overall though there's not alot here despite the initial hype.

Most notable changes here are the up special. Diddy can now recover from much further away, and is more difficult to edgeguard because of it. This was a big weakness of the character so I think this buff is worth mentioning.

Jab 2 & Jab 3 are now combo starters, for what it's worth. Still has the same problems with camping and approach, however.

/ Very significant changes & you will almost certainly see these characters again. SRK will kill much earlier, an average of 30% (!) difference. Which is a big deal on a frame 5 (ken) & frame 6 (ryu) move. Ryu fireball makes zoning him more difficult, which is another weakness significantly reduced. Twitter/youtube/etc videos have been exaggerating this a bit but the changes are very noticeable.

Witch time is much better, at least the first wt per stock.

Not any Lucario players in the region to get feedback from but the changes feel very noticeable. The up-smash links much better, which is a big deal because it has a very low initial hit + b-reverse aura sphere hitstun. The command grab is much more generous. Worth more investigation into the down-air changes too. Overall, just bigger hitboxes and more damage pair well with the character's strengths, and Lucario was not a bad character to begin with.

Overall, this was a much bigger patch than anticipated. The nerfs and buffs in this patch are much more drastic than the last few patches.

 

[DelugeFGC]

Falcon got buffed, but it's nothing too drastic. The side-special bugginess is mostly gone, uptilt is a bit more useful, and fair/bair are more rewarding. Overall though there's not alot here despite the initial hype.

Barring his turnaround dash and rockcrocking, he had literally every problem he had + other stuff tweaked / fixed. So I'd say it is a big deal, especially the fact knee is more consistent, BAir kills earlier and Raptor Boost works properly. Those all change the game quite a bit, it didn't take much.

The changes to knee and Side-B alone make quite a lot of difference if you play / know this character at all. You can get knee confirms out of stuff you straight up could not before, and getting knee reads is a reliable option again. Side-B was literally broken and would whiff in the most laughable situations, it also works more viably as a combo starter now due to the hitstun increase.

BAir wasn't even a move that needed a buff, but it can kill mad early now on the side stage / ledge area now. UTilt is actually a potential antiair option now not to mention easier to 2-frame spike with. I don't know why Falcon Kick was made more active, but it does make a difference.

Nothing huge was done to him, no, but what was done plugged almost every hole in the character.

 

[Thinkaman]

Aside: I'm full-stop just overlooking any posts of people complaining about "buffs" or "nerfs" that are just QoL changes.

I take issue with almost all of this.

1) Character loyalty is overrated nonsense. You do yourself a great disservice if you actively undermine your potential to win by playing a lower tiered character. The only exception I can see is if said player feels that the character has the potential to be top/high that others haven't seen. Otherwise it's self defeating from a competitive standpoint. It's refreshing to see a rare character once in awhile in tourney, but I will always root for the more skilled (and dare I say smarter) player who outplayed their opponent on the character select screen. Edit: Counterpick meta exists so there's some wiggle room to character selection, provided they can do something with the unorthodox switch
2) It's not up to the developers to do anything with the game post release; they have absolutely no obligation to release balance patches and search for game balance. They could just as easily have left the game it was as is on release. We're just lucky that they even do any of this. Besides, Sakurai doesn't particularly care for competitive, so I'd think he'd be inclined to not make any changes to serve a competitive scene he doesn't care for in the first place.

Your thesis is correct but I'm gonna nitpick your tone.

There's nothing wrong with someone enjoying playing a character, for whatever reason. It's only silly to feel entitled to a certain character performing in a certain way, and even more silly to demand this in a specific context. (Like top-level 1v1 with items off on specific stages.)

I think being thankful for updates is the right attitude. While there is some expectation that large, competitive games do this, it would be presumptuous and projecting imaginary promises onto the product you bought to cross the line into feeling entitled to them. (There's that word again)

As for Sakurai's tone, it would be great if this 2008 meme could die. Sakurai's messaging has been very clear that "there is no wrong way to play the game" and he loves all his children equally. Yet aspects of our competitive community wield a myopic, self-focused view of our top 1% of the player base, and interpret this as hostility. When Sakurai muses in an interview "Gee, there are thousands of tournaments with the same rules; wouldn't it be nice if there was one with items on, for those players who like that?", there's a hundred angry reddit posts "SAKURAI THINKS ALL TOURNAMENTS SHOULD USE ITEMS, HATES COMPETITIVE PLAY."

If Sakurai hated competitive play, he'd just have taken out the item switch from day 1. Easy peasy, duh.

Instead, we got Omega versions of every single stage. And then Battlefield versions. And Smash 4/Ultimate patches that nerfed the exact characters the competitive scene cares about, instead of Kirby or Ganondorf or whoever is popular with the plebians.

 

[Terotrous]

1) Character loyalty is overrated nonsense.

It still clearly exists and is prominent even in top level play. Many pros will tell you that picking a character that is not only good but that you enjoy playing and fits well with your playstyle is pretty important. There are also many players who are mainly known for using specific characters and might not be as notable if they were just playing the same characters as everyone else.

2) It's not up to the developers to do anything with the game post release

We're also not obligated to buy or play their games. These days, if you don't support your game it will quickly die out, and no one will buy your next game. Smash MIGHT be popular enough to be relatively immune to this but most other fighters aren't. There's simply so much competition in the fighting space that no one is going to stick with an unbalanced game that never gets patches.

As for Sakurai's tone, it would be great if this 2008 meme could die. Sakurai's messaging has been very clear that "there is no wrong way to play the game" and he loves all his children equally. Yet aspects of our competitive community wield a myopic, self-focused view of our top 1% of the player base, and interpret this as hostility. When Sakurai muses in an interview "Gee, there are thousands of tournaments with the same rules; wouldn't it be nice if there was one with items on, for those players who like that?"

There was one at Frostbite!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2V225SrLW0

I watched this live, it was actually pretty entertaining in a janky sort of way.

 

[bc1910]

Haven’t had a chance to play yet, but from the notes I’m extremely impressed with this patch overall. As mentioned the top 5 on the amalgamated pro list were all addressed, but in ways that non-trivially weaken them whilst not actually changing their fundamental gameplan or the way they feel and play. It doesn’t seem like we’re going to be getting character-breaking nerfs like 3DS Greninja in this game’s patch cycle, which I am certainly on board with.

Olimar, Peach and Pichu are the biggest losers. All of them have the same gameplan but will basically have to put more thought into it; Olimar can’t flick the C-stick easily, Pichu has had a lot more glass injected into the cannon (and can’t spam Ftilt for kills, that move was, in fairness, gutted) and Peach seems less oppressive with less kill power overall. Apparently held item attacks were patched out, there’s conflicting reports on whether this affects Peach’s float but if it does that’s huge as well.

Wolf and Lucina received slaps on the wrist with Wolf actually getting some nice buffs to moves that didn’t work properly. I don’t see either falling as much the other three. Lucina is on the downswing anyway but I’d consider Wolf net even from this patch given the nerfs to better characters. He may be even more in contention for the #1 spot than he was before given his mixed changes whilst characters above him were straight nerfed. Pichu in particular was one of his most volatile MUs which should now be a lot easier. I’ll have to see how the blaster nerf plays out in practice.

My knee jerk reaction tier-wise is that is the most likely contender for best character right now given the nerfs to characters above him, including a big hit to one of his worst MUs in Olimar.

and round out top tier (and coincidentally top 10) for me. They could reasonably be ordered in many different ways and they honestly seem pretty close in strength.

should still be in the mix, particularly Olimar, but I could see them closer to top of high tier now with characters like .

This patch should be a real shake up and has definitely made some sensible changes to those at the top of the pile. I haven’t even gone into the myriad of buffs which look especially significant for Falcon, Diddy, Lucario and the shotos.

 

[Thinkaman]

What is the concensus moving forward on ? There's a stark shortage of mention of him (edit: except for the post written as I typed this), for a character played by a guy who keeps getting #1 seeds. How good are these top-tier nerfs for this guy? Just as good as they are for everyone else?

 

[Arthur97]

Looks like this is the first patch with particularly substantial nerfs. Those self-damage nerfs are really going to pile up.

However, I don't think it's over for Pichu. He can still lightning loop, and he still has kill confirms, does he not? I have a hard time seeing this dropping him below high tier. He might see some players drop him over this though, and I don't blame them. He's already kind of stressful character to play.

Only time will tell how significant this all really is though. Still, I'm a bit shocked (pun unintended) that Pichu was hit this hard. Nerfs have been fairly light so far and between this and the Olimar nerfs I feel like this is the first patch to really try and make substantial nerfs over simple slaps on the risks. It was a small QoL fix, chill. Most characters had fixes to their multihits in this patch.

This'll hardly make a difference to Joker's viability.
So you're upset that Lucina's inferior version wasn't nerfed alongside her? I get how attached loyalists can but let's be reasonable here. No need to get angry with Marth purely out of spite - his F-smash is still probably less reliable of a kill move then hers.

I mained Charizard since early Smash 4, before he had grab combos or a killing U-throw. I'm sure you can deal with a slightly-less-top-tier Lucina. Picking a good character isn't bad sportsmanship. If anything, getting angry over your opponent's character choice is poor sportsmanship. The game starts at the character select screen. You have access to all the same characters they do.

Believe me, I know how frustrating it can be. I've mained bad characters in the past. I still play some of them for fun, and as a loyalist, I'd still probably be playing PT even if he was low tier in this game. I've been bodied by Smash 4 Bayos, Shieks and ZZSes countless times. But at a certain point, you have to admit to yourself that that's just a part of being a low tier main, and that you're the one who's set yourself up for that by picking a worse character.

My main issue is that they're so determined to treat echoes the same, then they don't change Marth after the Daisy veggie patch.

 

[Terotrous]

My main issue is that they're so determined to treat echoes the same, then they don't change Marth after the Daisy veggie patch.

I'm really hoping this indicates a change in policy going forward, I'd love to see the echoes differentiated more. Probably doesn't though. I am quite happy with that Lucina change in any case, I feel like this gives Marth a lot more room to be relevant, while not making it so Marth is now just better Lucina.

 

[Daisycakes]

My main issue is that they're so determined to treat echoes the same, then they don't change Marth after the Daisy veggie patch.

Well, people were saying that Lucina's strength made Marth redundant, so they nerfed her to be more in line with his average? For Ryu/Ken, Ryu's Hadokens have been differentiated much more from Ken's now, giving him a better neutral.

I think they intend to make echoes kinda close. Daisy got all the same changes as Peach did this patch, Dark Pit's side B in the air was adjusted to be identical to Pit's in terms of ending lag.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

My main issue is that they're so determined to treat echoes the same, then they don't change Marth after the Daisy veggie patch.

Its exactly the same as how they handled the two in SSB4 (aside from the time they gave both characters a large and same amount of buffs because wow they started off terrible in SSB4).

End of the day, doesn't matter what title you slap onto Lucina: she's fundamentally different from Marth and will always be treated a bit differently from him. Status as echo is irrelevant. Zero reason to apply some sort of nerf to Marth to keep the playing field "fair" between the two of them. Particularly when you consider his borderline non-existant results.

Besides, based on how the two nerfs are looking, its going to have borderline zero impact on Lucina: she wasn't using Fair to kill in the first place and if anything gains some low % strings, and Fsmash is still killing stupid early for the amount of area it covers and its not going to suddenly make her struggle more to get kills: she's still most likely wracking up percentage well above Fsmash's minkill % before going for it.

 

[Sean²]

My main issue is that they're so determined to treat echoes the same, then they don't change Marth after the Daisy veggie patch.

Daisy and Peach were meant to be identical, the turnip thing wasn't intentional. Lucina and Marth have very clear, intentional differences despite having the same attack animations. It makes more sense for them to be treated differently over the echoes that were made to be more or less the same character.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Here is my interpretation of the buffs.


The changes mostly improve multi-hit moves for connecting as much. The biggest one is to jabs. The characters that got jab change buffed:
, and most significantly .


Other notable multi-hit changes/fixes:
Up Smash Down Smash Up Tilt
Forward Tilt (FINALLY!!!) (Arsene) Side B Up B Up Air Neutral Special


They have also finally fixed some notable bugs/issues with some characters:
They have seemed to have fixed the armor glitch from Giant Punch, which is a carryover glitch from SSB4.

This is gone now thanks to the most recent patch lets go. Punch is 100% fixed now https://t.co/fBPWvvlKMC

— Konga (@DonkeyKong98123) May 31, 2019

They have fixed the Super Cyclone glitch with Luigi. At least they made his grab more reliable on point-blank, so that is cool.
They fixed side B's initial hitbox and improved the move further. I will get to this character's changes more soon.
The final hitbox of Aura Sphere's charge now properly matches the hitbox. I will get to this character's changes more soon.
They fixed both of Fishing Rod's glitches, the one where its hitbox remains indefinitely out when the rod is in the air, and the one where reeling grounded rod will have no hitbox. Both a buff and a nerf to Isabelle.



Here are the characters that notably changed the most:
The boy got buffed. A more reliable side B and down B, a stronger back air and forward tilt, a faster up tilt, and increased range on sweetspot knee. Fatality is proud today.
This already solid character got a lot of love. They essentially reverted the Aura Sphere nerf from 2.0.0., made it even better, and gave him a bunch of over various QoL buffs. Needless to say, things are looking up for this character.
Some really nice buffs for Diddy. The up smash, up air, and up B buffs are really going to help the character. ZeRo is already playing around with the character more after the buffs, so that is interesting to see.
Got some QoL buffs here and there. I am really interested on how the Luma rework (lower HP, but faster spawn time) will play out. It doesn't, unfortunately, solve the fact the Luma is still easy to smack around, but nice regardless.
Some nice buffs to Mac. The jab change is the most interesting, as Sol has already shown that it now has some spicy combo potential. Other changes like the forward tilt fix and up smash buffs is also interesting to see. None of those changes does, unfortunately, solve some of his biggest issues. He still loses side B after he gets hit out of it and his jumps are still too low to reach the platforms. Helpful changes regardless.
Also got some nice buffs. The up tilt and side B buff, in particular, is going to help out with his combo potential and approach, respectively. Still got his issues, but they nevertheless help out the character quite a bit.
Both got some really nice buffs. It isn't the mobility buff fix I was expecting, but what we got instead was nice too. The Ryu Hadoken change also encourages a more differed playstyle between the two, which is also pretty nice to see. I already see some players trying them out, so we will see.
It is strange to see Bayonetta actually get any notable changes at all. Geist is already mad labbing the character with these changes. Similarly to Mac, it doesn't really solve any of her mains issues, but is nice regardless.
They received what seems to be a slap on the wrist. For Peach, a slightly weaker forward air, longer turnip pulling, and a more vulnerable side B. For Wolf, a nerfed laser, down smash (slightly), and up B (final hit only). For both of these characters, these nerfs won't affect them that much at all. Still going to be top tier threats.
Already an upper tiered character that is not doing as well as others, but then got noticeably nerfed. It is easier to hit (although its shield is increased to compensate), its f-tilt is much weaker, its forward smash has more endlag, and its moves deals more recoil. Definitiely one of the most nerfed in the patch, although I think Pichu will still be high tier at the very least.
The one that got hit the most. Easier to hit (falling Wario up air now hits Olimar) and made up and forward smash less safe on shield (although up smash still combos into itself so lol). However, getting hit out of Olimar's up B now makes him go almost nowhere. A noticeable recovery nerf. Still very much high tier, and like what DelugeTN says, is now at more reasonable levels.

 

[Daisycakes]

Its exactly the same as how they handled the two in SSB4 (aside from the time they gave both characters a large and same amount of buffs because wow they started off terrible in SSB4).

End of the day, doesn't matter what title you slap onto Lucina: she's fundamentally different from Marth and will always be treated a bit differently from him. Status as echo is irrelevant. Zero reason to apply some sort of nerf to Marth to keep the playing field "fair" between the two of them. Particularly when you consider his borderline non-existant results.

Besides, based on how the two nerfs are looking, its going to have borderline zero impact on Lucina: she wasn't using Fair to kill in the first place and if anything gains some low % strings, and Fsmash is still killing stupid early for the amount of area it covers and its not going to suddenly make her struggle more to get kills: she's still most likely wracking up percentage well above Fsmash's minkill % before going for it.

I won't say that they are fundamentally different. If Marth got a framedata/range nerf Lucina would get the exact same nerf. The damage/knockback thing was always different, and they thought Lucina's fair gimped people a little too easily or sent people too far compared to Marth's average. Same with F Smash getting a KBG nerf - the move was probably weighted too much in Lucina's favour so they toned it down.

 

[Arthur97]

Daisy and Peach were meant to be identical, the turnip thing wasn't intentional. Lucina and Marth have very clear, intentional differences despite having the same attack animations. It makes more sense for them to be treated differently over the echoes that were made to be more or less the same character.

It may have not been intentional, but there was no reason to change it other than strictly trying to make them even more similar. At that point it was doing something for the sake of the "rules."

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Haven’t had a chance to play yet, but from the notes I’m extremely impressed with this patch overall. As mentioned the top 5 on the amalgamated pro list were all addressed, but in ways that non-trivially weaken them whilst not actually changing their fundamental gameplan or the way they feel and play. It doesn’t seem like we’re going to be getting character-breaking nerfs like 3DS Greninja in this game’s patch cycle, which I am certainly on board with.

Olimar, Peach and Pichu are the biggest losers. All of them have the same gameplan but will basically have to put more thought into it; Olimar can’t flick the C-stick easily, Pichu has had a lot more glass injected into the cannon (and can’t spam Ftilt for kills, that move was, in fairness, gutted) and Peach seems less oppressive with less kill power overall. Apparently held item attacks were patched out, there’s conflicting reports on whether this affects Peach’s float but if it does that’s huge as well.

Wolf and Lucina received slaps on the wrist with Wolf actually getting some nice buffs to moves that didn’t work properly. I don’t see either falling as much the other three. Lucina is on the downswing anyway but I’d consider Wolf net even from this patch given the nerfs to better characters. He may be even more in contention for the #1 spot than he was before given his mixed changes whilst characters above him were straight nerfed. Pichu in particular was one of his most volatile MUs which should now be a lot easier. I’ll have to see how the blaster nerf plays out in practice.

My knee jerk reaction tier-wise is that is the most likely contender for best character right now given the nerfs to characters above him, including a big hit to one of his worst MUs in Olimar.

and round out top tier (and coincidentally top 10) for me. They could reasonably be ordered in many different ways and they honestly seem pretty close in strength.

should still be in the mix, particularly Olimar, but I could see them closer to top of high tier now with characters like .

This patch should be a real shake up and has definitely made some sensible changes to those at the top of the pile. I haven’t even gone into the myriad of buffs which look especially significant for Falcon, Diddy, Lucario and the shotos.

I dunno. I thin / may fall just outside top-10 as well. Not only did many her kill-options get nerfed, but with additonal lag on Turnips her neutral may suffer in MU's where she gets outranged. The Snake MU likley going to really suck for her now.

Actullay I think might even rise-up now. Her buffs may seem not to signifigant on paper but they can potentially be big for her. Side-B multihits connecting better now means it can be a more consistent option since at times opponets just seem to fall out of it.
Down-B having increased horizontal distance can also lead to even better edgeguarding and gimping, and may have more kill-confrim potential.

 

[Lavani]

Patch thoughts? Patch thoughts.

Hard to put thoughts to this one without numbers backing it up (bair knockback buff was fairly minor but still something, the rest idk), but better specials, more reliable fair, and stronger bair seem like changes with impact.

Ftilt keeps its privileged hitboxes and frame data but is more of a stock cap than a go-to kill option now, fsmash is now the same total animation length but still less endlag than Pikachu's, tjolt got less of a recoil nerf than his other electrical attacks, and anything else is only hurt by being punished with more recoil for pressing buttons indiscriminately. He's certainly falling a bit from this, but it looks worse than it is considering the quantity of things touched.

Fsmash and fair kill 5% later. She'll live. It's probably too minor a knockback change to make a real difference, but maybe she gets extra combos out of fair now? This could honestly be spun as a net buff if so.

Usmash kb/reliability buffs are fairly significant for his ability to kill. Faster uair/dair, and better recovery in particular also sound quite nice for him.

Fsmash is 1 frame laggier than sm4sh fsmash, usmash is less shield safe/more color dependent but still very good. His recovery still isn't Chrom's, so...?

I'm surprised to be hearing ASC confirms are more reliable given the listed changes. Perhaps lower KB + added hitstun on the charge now? Other than ASC stuff coming back, it sounds like a lot of "made this move a bit more worthwhile" type changes than things that actually change how he plays.

Blaster endlag increase is small but meaningful. Dsmash kills a few percent later at the ledge, but at the same percent or earlier elsewhere due to increased KBG alongside the reduced BKB. Shine's invuln 5f now, which may give it a bit more utility as a string breaker, and the frame shaved off of startup may make it easier to fit into combos.

Faster grab is nice, Luma changes feel...strange? but she normally dies from getting hit offstage so I guess it's probably net positive. More reward on fsmash reads is nice and all, but it doesn't really change how she executes her gameplan, so I don't see it being a tier-shifting thing. Depending on how Rosa mains progress with implementing tech, reduced endlag on Luma dash attack could actually be significant, as it allows for some interesting possibilities combined with attack canceling:

チコDAがヒットした後でも暴れられるようになってる！これは楽しそう pic.twitter.com/kpPrpIZlu7

— ジャン/Jan (@jan_ssbu) May 31, 2019

Curious about what, if anything, would've allowed jab3 to become a confirm when the only given patch change was increased range. I'm not sure if this means stealth buffs or just till-now undiscovered tech. Kinda curious if "made it easier to hit multiple times" means increased hitstun? Could mean new confirms for other characters that got that if so.

I like it.

Less commitment, more reliably-functioning attacks, more worthwhile counter, and a couple new kill options are all positive changes in the direction of positive-without-becoming-overbearing. She's on the right track.

 

[PK Gaming]

What is the concensus moving forward on ? There's a stark shortage of mention of him (edit: except for the post written as I typed this), for a character played by a guy who keeps getting #1 seeds. How good are these top-tier nerfs for this guy? Just as good as they are for everyone else?

So fast fall upair works on olimar now pic.twitter.com/p0gZ2phioj

— OC | Remrin (@Remrin258) May 31, 2019

The top tier nerfs are substancial for him. He struggled against characters with tiny hitboxes and he definitely appreciates Peach being weakened.

The changes will help Tweek on the consistency front, and we'll be seeing more from players like Glutonny as well (who /barely/ lost to Shuton recently)

Definitely a character to watch out for

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

What is the concensus moving forward on ? There's a stark shortage of mention of him (edit: except for the post written as I typed this), for a character played by a guy who keeps getting #1 seeds. How good are these top-tier nerfs for this guy? Just as good as they are for everyone else?

Well I do know that Olimar's hurtbox increase makes falling Up air work on him now which opens up more opportunities for combos and more importantly waft setups, that could be enough to impact the MU very noticeably. The character is clearly very good and despite one of the best players in the world using him, it's clear his main weaknesses in disjoints aren't hindering him as much as people would like you to believe. The character has just about everything you could ask for in a character, diverse combo trees, kill setups, fantastic air mobility, good weight, good recovery* (when he has a bike available) overall solid normals that do their job, and a home run option in waft.

 

[Thinkaman]

It's also been mentioned how Doc can now SH bair Pichu as well. Any other characters who were uniquely limited against Olimar/Pichu's hurtbox previously?

 

[MrGameguycolor]

It's also been mentioned how Doc can now SH bair Pichu as well. Any other characters who were uniquely limited against Olimar/Pichu's hurtbox previously?

Plant can now hit Olimar with landing Up-Air...

 

[ProfessorVincent]

It may have not been intentional, but there was no reason to change it other than strictly trying to make them even more similar. At that point it was doing something for the sake of the "rules."

Jesus, man!

Can you please look around you and notice how other people are reacting to the same changes you're freaking out about? Read through DelugeFGC 's posts and learn the value of playing the game before crying about small nerfs.

We all get it, you've posted it numerous times, you have an emotional relationship with the lines of code that make up a character in a fighting game. No one is blaming you for that, we all love smash after all, but can you please stop repeatedly complaining about the minor tweaks your top tier of choice has gotten? Thanks!

 

[AxelVDP]

1) Character loyalty is overrated nonsense. You do yourself a great disservice if you actively undermine your potential to win by playing a lower tiered character. The only exception I can see is if said player feels that the character has the potential to be top/high that others haven't seen. Otherwise it's self defeating from a competitive standpoint. It's refreshing to see a rare character once in awhile in tourney, but I will always root for the more skilled (and dare I say smarter) player who outplayed their opponent on the character select screen. Edit: Counterpick meta exists so there's some wiggle room to character selection, provided they can do something with the unorthodox switch

I tend to agree but: different people play for different reasons, and there's not anything wrong with that. Someone might find more satisfaction for playing a low tier character just because, and as long as he's aware of it and is not deluding himself that he's purely playing to win that's fine.
also there's another pretty big factor: sometimes (and I stress this word) a lower tiered character can be the better choice for a player simply because the character's tool mesh well with the personal skills of the player
also https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkHPr2OhF_A

there's nothing wrong with apreciating character loyalty in games, the problem arises when the community starts hating someone just because he's switching to a top tier or stops being "loyal" to a character

 

[Arthur97]

Jesus, man!

Can you please look around you and notice how other people are reacting to the same changes you're freaking out about? Read through DelugeFGC 's posts and learn the value of playing the game before crying about small nerfs.

We all get it, you've posted it numerous times, you have an emotional relationship with the lines of code that make up a character in a fighting game. No one is blaming you for that, we all love smash after all, but can you please stop repeatedly complaining about the minor tweaks your top tier of choice has gotten? Thanks!

Excuse me for hating their inconsistency with echoes. It's not so much the changes as the decision making process behind them.

 

[Thinkaman]

There was an inconsistency in the echoes: Lucina was better than Marth. (Das Koopa's numbers put Lucina's tourney performance at almost 17x that of Marth.)

This issue has been, hopefully, corrected.

Next mention of this topic is getting tippered with an infraction.

 

[FLGibsonIII]

Are there any illustrations of how much olimars high damage window on his side smash was changed?

 

[Roguewolf]

They're fairly inconsequential. As long as they don't slow his air game, I don't think he'll fall off too hard.

Yeah I know I just think if every patch they do these fairly inconsequential things it'll eventually add up

 

[Rizen]

What is the concensus moving forward on ? There's a stark shortage of mention of him (edit: except for the post written as I typed this), for a character played by a guy who keeps getting #1 seeds. How good are these top-tier nerfs for this guy? Just as good as they are for everyone else?

I was reluctant to put Wario in top tier but eventually caved after playing vs him a few times. Wario's a heavyweight with a hurtbox only slightly bigger than Mario's. His airspeed's great and it feels like his attacks reach out farther than SSB4 with move like Bair so he doesn't have poor MUs vs swords. DA is a good move that he can combo Dtilt into, Ftilt and Bair all kill at good %s. So Wario has a solid gameplan with Waft being ridiculously strong on top of it all, even partially charged and Wario can combo things like Utilt into it.

The recent patch was a win for any top/high tiers who didn't get nerfed. The characters who were better than them and probably their toughest MUs aren't as big of threats. Several lower ranked characters got buffs but they're probably less common than the top tiers who got nerfed. It's a great time for characters like Wario, Palutena and Snake.

It's also been mentioned how Doc can now SH bair Pichu as well. Any other characters who were uniquely limited against Olimar/Pichu's hurtbox previously?

I played a Pichu yesterday, pre-patch and had YL's arrow go over his head as he dashed toward me. Bigger hurtboxes on them will make projectile walling more effective.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

I was reluctant to put Wario in top tier but eventually caved after playing vs him a few times. Wario's a heavyweight with a hurtbox only slightly bigger than Mario's. His airspeed's great and it feels like his attacks reach out farther than SSB4 with move like Bair so he doesn't have poor MUs vs swords. DA is a good move that he can combo Dtilt into, Ftilt and Bair all kill at good %s. So Wario has a solid gameplan with Waft being ridiculously strong on top of it all, even partially charged and Wario can combo things like Utilt into it.

The recent patch was a win for any top/high tiers who didn't get nerfed. The characters who were better than them and probably their toughest MUs aren't as big of threats. Several lower ranked characters got buffs but they're probably less common than the top tiers who got nerfed. It's a great time for characters like Wario, Palutena and Snake.

I played a Pichu yesterday, pre-patch and had YL's arrow go over his head as he dashed toward me. Bigger hurtboxes on them will make projectile walling more effective.

Well..if Wario was not top-tier before the patch, he certianly is now with many characters above him getting nerfed like you said ncuding possibly his worst MU in Olimar.

But things did not change to dratically in there otherwise. Pichu and Olimar are likely going down a tier. maybe Peach\Daisy as well, but not sure
Snake, Palu and Fox are going to rise soley on they were left alone.
Possible unpopular opinion coming, but I ZSS and Pikachu also maybe go up. They were already around top-of high and got small, but noticable buffs. Possibly Chrom too since I think many Lucina mains were thinking of going to him before the patch.

 

[Rhus]

I don't think the nerfs to will do much to his overall validity but they are good nerfs - I'm happy they took the time to nerf the appropriate things rather than nickel and diming his kit to obscurity. Hopefully this is the last of the adjustments we see to him. I think he's in a good place now.

I'm definitely salty that a patch so heavily focused on fixing multihits did not touch Dair. That move is pretty garbage and people always fall out of it now.

- Nerfs seem decently well directed. I am happy they didn't slow Pichu down or reduce his combo game as they seem to understand character identity. I think the Peach nerfs are a good direction to make her work a little harder for kills and in neutral.

I don't think deserved those nerfs, or at least not all of them. People are pretty dramatic about Olimar and the resounding hate for the character may have contributed to these changes but who knows.

Wouldn't mind seeing some adjustments to next patch. Would love some meaningful buffs for but we'll have to wait.

 

[FLGibsonIII]

I agree with olimar being more vulnerable after his up smash and f smash. I dont know what to think about his fsmash high damage hitbox change yet, but it really does feel like they knee capped his recovery for no reason. I would have rather had a somewhat shorter and more consistent recovery with olimar than his recovery simply not going anywhere if you need to use it right after using it. That change alone will honestly send him to high tier imo. He had a top tier recovery, and now he doesnt seem terribly hard to gimp.

I can sorta understand why myran is upset, as he said he is more upset about the people asking for nerfs than the nerfs themselves. To me and probably to him, it seems olimar had a dispraportionate amount of hate compared to the rest of the top tiers who have similar results. Snake in all honesty seems to get a free pass from a lot of people because he is a "cool flashy" chatacter while olimar is considered an "uncool nonflashy zoner" character. I know snake is derided by some, but olimar and snake were nearly identical in the tier list imo and olimar seemingly gets way more hate. Coolness factor is very real factor on balance discussions imo. Snake is probably the best character in the game now.

Still waiting for duck hunt buffs lol.

I also think pichu was unfairly treated. I think him damaging himself more was a great change. He isnt glassy enoghy to be the true glass cannon he was meant to be. The problem is now they took a signifacant part of his canon away. They should have just made him damage himself more and make the ftilt do a decent amount of self damage too.

 

[Rhus]

Still waiting for duck hunt buffs lol.

I want some love for the goodest boi

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Man..Myran is still going on about the Olimar nerfs

https://mobile.twitter.com/MyranSSB/status/1134516981770739713?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^tweet

I understand being initially upset if your main got nerfed, especiallt if you are a competitve player. But come on, there was no doubt things like Olimars, smash attacks needed toning down.

 

[G. Stache]

Gosh the jab buffs were something I’ve wanted since day one and I’m super happy that they happened. If I had a dollar every time Luigi’s jab just didn’t connect, I would main that character still just to make bank. Incineroar was another character who’s jab just didn’t connect sometimes. Also I knew about the nightmare stories about Olimar’s smash attacks, but I never realized just how good they were until I saw that Olimar used to have his Up Smash’s FAF at 37 frames and F Smash at 40 FAF (now up to 40 FAF and 43 FAF, respectively if I’m not wrong). Three frames more lag is a noticeable difference but geez that is still god tier frame data. Can’t say much about Olimar’s other changes though but they seem to be pretty healthy changes and I’m glad that Nintendo’s not going overboard this time around with their changes. Even Pichu, who probably got hit the hardest, is still most likely still a high tier character. I just hope that other characters (namely plant) get a bit of love in the near future. The buffs this time around seem really healthy for the game in general and I’m excited to see how other characters get tweaked. Much better patches than what smash 4 gave us imo.

 

[Terotrous]

Everyone getting these jab buffs but Samus Jab1 to Jab2 still isn't a combo.

I like how they finally fixed it for Smash 4 and then unfixed it for Ult.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Everyone getting these jab buffs but Samus Jab1 to Jab2 still isn't a combo.

It's intentional, there's actually an in-game tip that says that hit 2 doesn't connect very well.

 

[Roguewolf]

It's intentional, there's actually an in-game tip that says that hit 2 doesn't connect very well.

But why is it like that I'm curious now.

 

[Nobie]

People have been complaining about Pikachu ftilt nerf, but seem to conveniently leave out that it's still out for like EIGHT ACTIVE FRAMES.

The move is fine.

 

[Xfire]

But why is it like that I'm curious now.

Samus's jab1 can be used to tip opponents off when it hits shield. It's surprisingly safe on shield with its low end lag and respectable shieldstun, which can lead to some mixups, such as foxtrotting away to avoid the opponent's OOS options and reacting with the appropriate move (aerials, pivot grab, etc.). Some character's jab1s can do this too (Ganondorf is a great example) while others have either slightly high endlag or not enough shieldstun that doesn't allow baits like this.

 

[Rizen]

(Pre-patch) I got to play a lot with my secondaries in friendlies and used until I lost in the tournament then switch to my main .

has an easier time than YL vs characters like Ness who walls YL with things like Fair. Link's big sword helps but it's really slow. I'm finding it hard to approach characters who can out zone him and small characters who are hard to hit with SH Fair. Link's projectile zoning game is considerably worse than YL's and he gets shut down if he can't force an approach. I had a terrible time vs Falco; Falco's lasers interrupt Link, reflector walls him and stops boomerang and Link's poor mobility doesn't do him any favors. Link's a defensive character who's great at catching landings with his huge Utilt/smash and walling with things like Fair/ pivot Ftilt but he doesn't have good answers if he can't play defensively.

has a horrible MU vs Pichu, same as all heavyweights. I had a Pichu player say to me how badly Pichu wrecks Ridley. Playing other characters makes me appreciate how good YL is in several MUs. As I play K.Rool more I find using him as a zoner is the most effective. F4 jab is really good as a GTFO option that deals 12% iirc. It seems to be a theme that I like zoning/defensive characters. His limited hitboxes really hold him back but he has good tools too. I was playing vs Cloud and lost in a last stock situation. K.Rool has options but lacks hitboxes he can throw out like Cloud. With his poor mobility it seems like opponents can hit him before he can hit them. K.Rool is heavily dependent on making good reads. A lot of his moveset acts as a pseudo counter: crownerang has armor and beats other projectiles, Ftilt/DA have belly armor and he has an actual counter/reflector. The problem is, like counters, everything has a ton of commitment. K.Rool has to be played defensively too.

dislikes bigger disjoints than his. As mentioned Ness' Fair walls him hard up close. He has his fair share of bad MUs ( and others I'm less familiar with) and they usually include shutting down YL's CQC game. Ike's huge sword blocks projectiles and has amazing coverage, Ness is faster in CQC and walls with Fair, ROB is heavier and has his own zoning game plus big robo burner attacks, Chrom is Chrom, Snake just lives longer and Utilt and Nikita are stupid, Wario would be even but he's so much better at killing and one of the better wall breakers.

But if characters don't have a good answer to YL he is extremely oppressive. YL's a very polarizing character, often being some characters' worst MU. He has an amazing neutral. Unlike Link and K.Rool, YL can force almost anyone to come to him. Even vs Falco he can jump over lasers and throw down bombs over his reflector. After the nerfs he probably beats Pichu. IMO YL went even with Pichu and Olimar before. YL would benifit from a secondary but he has some really good tools. IMO he slightly beats Joker. I'm starting to ramble. tl;dr maybe I need an offensive secondary since I like defensive characters.

 

[Roguewolf]

By the way wolfs new shine can be nasty in strings and seems to go into wolf flash well I love it