Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[**Gilgamesh**]

As always, Shulk can't crack top 32 when in a large tournament with actual competition, will continue to be paraded hilariously around as top tier/top 10. He even had secondary character support this time and still couldn't do it.

I ain't even positive Shulk is high tier let alone top tier. Its just a constant train of johns as to why he's underperforming to justify his free ride to top tier or to justify his hilariously overinflated MU claims (lololol no losing MUs), yet no other character gets that luxury. At least other technical characters like Greninja and Joker still make the occasional appearances in top 8 at massive tournaments even when also rocking fairly small player pools.

Shulk's just not relevant to the meta game. Not really. Can't cut it solo/as primary, too complicated to be a pocket/secondary/counter pick option. Just... let it go already people. Complicated or untapped potential =/= good character.

It's so obvious that the main reason why shulk struggles is that his start-up Frame Data is atrocious where you literally have to commit to an option and still get beaten out but other characters moves such. Showcased in Salem and Dabuz where his palutena dash-attacked Shulk before his fair came out. Such slow start-up is just asking for quick characters to out-button you.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Might as well post about Combo Breaker 2019, which has also reached top 8:
Winner's
Maister vs ESAM
yeti vs Zinoto

Loser's
ANTi vs MVD
tyroy vs Dill


Here is the placings for 9th:
9th: Pelca
9th: Ned
9th: Kain
9th: Comet


Cool to see some Brawl legends (Pelca and Kain) continue to do pretty well going into Ultimate.
Who is in top 8 right now doesn't really show any surprise, other than Dill taking it over Ned in order to reach top 8.

 

[Impax]

Here is the top 8 bracket:
Winner's
Tweek vs VoiD
Marss vs MkLeo

Loser's
Nairo vs Salem
Sinji vs Samsora


Here is the placings for 9th-25th:
9th: Dabuz
9th: Ally
9th: WaDi
9th: Shoyo James
13th: Dark Wizzy
13th: Light
13th: Cosmos
13th: Myran
17th: Goblin
17th: Ryuga
17th: CaptainZack
17th: Peabnut
17th: Wrath
17th: Suarez
17th: Umeki
17th: MuteAce
25th: Morpheus
25th: Captain L
25th: BlazingPasta
25th: ScAtt
25th: RFang
25th: Mr E
25th: Fatality
25th: VinnyG


Pichu finally gets top 8 at a major again. We will see how far VoiD will push his placement.
Reverse 3-0's were everywhere and the hype didn't stop.

Also, why where you taunting in the last game Shoyo? That is the true reason why you lost. :/

Why does our posts in Smashboards end up jinxing everything? lol

Unless he was kidding , captain zack ran a lot of bayonetta this tournament.

 

[Heracr055]

Mega Man is having a pretty good weekend.
Good stuff to Salem for reverse 3-0ing Dabuz with Shulk

 

[Ziodyne 21]

MKLeo with Joker is kinda like Marss with ZSS. They are amazing players who have picked up strong high-tier characters and just how the way play seems tailor made to bring out the most of their respective characters. It really is amazing seeing them both in action.

Speaking of ZSS. Nairo used her to beat Light

 

[Rizen]

Did MKLeo drop Wolf, what's the deal with that? Sadly YL didn't do too well. If Tweek doesn't play him there's no top player rep.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Did MKLeo drop Wolf, what's the deal with that?

Sort of. He is really dedicating himself on solo Joker right now, only using Lucina against the electric rats. Between his GOML and MomoCon performance right now, that arrangement is working right now.

Not sure when the Wolf is coming back, but he always has one in the back pocket when needed.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I'm super impressed with the character diversity in that top 8. Especially since half of the characters there (Wario, ZSS, Joker, Pac Man) aren't part of the consensus top tier as far as I know. And no overlap in character choice, either, so 8 characters for 8 players. When's the last time that even happened?

At the risk of contradicting my previous post about Shulk, I do think the surprise counterpick comeback shows that, at the very least, he's "not bad." (A large number of characters could probably be described that way, actually.)

 

[Gleam]

I think it's just general perception that makes people think Shulk is Top Tier.

You have a character who is indeed vastly improved from his Smash4 Incarnation. Even though it's not Top Tier, making Top 30 in Orion still paints Shulk as a competent character especially when his usage according to SSBWorld is rather average. He's an average character used with average to above average results. But more importantly because we know nobody actually pays attention to results that aren't massively major tournaments, we can guess most of this is just, general perception.

Shulk with Mondo Arts looks good, on paper and through data Shulk looks good. But this is the same thing people said with and while a few people might put Ganondorf in High Tier, I do think the general consensus is, at best, Mid Tier. But I remember how hyped King K. Rool was when he was first introduced. Everyone thought this animal was the best heavy ever, like what madman gives a heavy such a recovery? And Super Armor? King K. Rool was the greatest thing ever made and you're dead great grandfather who served in World War I literally popped out of his grave just to tell you that King K. Rool was the best character in the game.

We all heard it and hell, you all probably believed it too.

It wasn't as bad as K. Rool but I remember when people gushed over how amazing Ganondorf was now. Not only was he killing 50% earlier but all of his aerials had been improved, he had new techs with his sword.

Now unlike those two, Shulk actually has some results to back himself up, but it the same thing. Shulk with all his improved Arts and techs made him "look" good. And in respect, a lot of that has made him good. I actually have no problem putting Shulk in High Tier. I'll also say I'll sooner put Shulk in Top Tier than Ganondorf in High Tier, that's for sure.

People say "Results" aren't all that matters, maybe not but it paints a pretty strong picture of the character. Plus with things like the SSBWorld Stat usage, we can now get a good idea of how much these character's are utilized.

Shulk is a very average, some might say slightly below average character used. However he makes a bit above average results. That tells me that despite having average popularity, the majority of his players bring him results. Which is something I can't say for other characters.

So while I question Shulk's ability as a top tier, unlike so many other character's who literally don't have jack to their name, Shulk at least has some results. Results that are superior to his apparent usage. So he's one of the few characters you might get away with saying

"He'd get better results if he was more popular"

 

[Lacrimosa]

Kinda sad Mystearica didn't choose MomoCon to compete with Zelda (I still think she's at least high mid-tier), but at least he won his tourney (should be a c-tier if at all) he attended to. Eh, fuggit :3.
Now there's hope Ven and Mystearica will do well at Smash 'n Splash which is next week.

 

[Nemesis561]

As always, Shulk can't crack top 32 when in a large tournament with actual competition, will continue to be paraded hilariously around as top tier/top 10. He even had secondary character support this time and still couldn't do it.

I ain't even positive Shulk is high tier let alone top tier. Its just a constant train of johns as to why he's underperforming to justify his free ride to top tier or to justify his hilariously overinflated MU claims (lololol no losing MUs), yet no other character gets that luxury. At least other technical characters like Greninja and Joker still make the occasional appearances in top 8 at massive tournaments even when also rocking fairly small player pools.

Shulk's just not relevant to the meta game. Not really. Can't cut it solo/as primary, too complicated to be a pocket/secondary/counter pick option. Just... let it go already people. Complicated or untapped potential =/= good character.

This is such a brutal post. So what caused you to post this is because Nico got 33rd when he was the only high level shulk that attended? You do realize 33rd out of 1250 is not an awful placing? And Nico is not the caliber of player that is expected to contend for top 8s at majors.

5 months into a game and you wanna want to proclaim his meta game dead. Got it

 

[NotLiquid]

I'll say that despite Shulk's frame data, he's got a really good up tilt.

I can't think of a lot of anti-airs that low profile during startup. Not opting for that would likely have cost him the whole set since Dabuz was trying to land with a FAir while Salem was at 103% in Smash Art.

 

[Iridium]

Salem's Shulk is interesting. Obviously, his focus on tech isn't as prevalent as with other Shulks, but his neutral was a lot better. I think that players can still optimize techniques like Dial Storage in Ultimate, but it's not that much of a necessity like in Smash 4. He's not as technically demanding as the latter title forced him to be, although playing him either way would likely not change up how he works. A strong neutral is something important for Shulk to maintain.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Salem's Shulk looked to me to be more of a "Dabuz isn't expecting this and Olimar is weak when his opponent can efficiently fight outside of Pikmin toss range and camp at the same time."

Salem was able to employ his traditional slow paced gameplan in this particular MU because arte cycling between jump and speed makes its very hard to actually hit Shulk. Shulk's incredible range allows him to fight at a distance that Olimar is usually safe in throwing Pikmin and Shulk's ability to increase damage or knockback while still maintaining the distance advantage was shown to be hard to Dabuz to actually keep up with. Plus Shulk's fair is a ridiculous move off stage. I can see why Olimar players don't seem to care for Belmont, he checks off a lot of these boxes. More particularly the camping and extreme range.

Once Dabuz switched to Palutena you could see how less effective this strategy was and how raw Salem's Shulk actually is, the game could had gone either way. I'd be interested to see how effective this strategy remains in future sets and see if Dabuz is able to adapt.

 

[Condenir]

What’s the general consensus on the Palu vs. Snake matchup?

I feel like this would be one of snakes harder matchups but I don’t hear people talking about it much

 

[The_Bookworm]

In the MomoCon side of things, Samsora 3-0 Sinji to eliminate him in 7th place.

In the Combo Breaker side of things, Maister 2-1 ESAM to send him in loser's, which puts Maister up against yeti in winner's finals.

 

[Rizen]

^It's weird they scheduled 2 big tournaments at once.

is looking weak in this game. She's the 2nd lightest character, has no disjoints and the worst fall speed of the cast. Rest's endlag got buffed but it's still punishable on wiff and Jiggz has to get close to use it. IMO she's low tier. I guess Hungrybox was good at Melee but he's held back by her in Ultimate.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Nairo 3-0 Salem .

While Nario won the first 2 games vs Salem's Snake and Lucina very convingly. It was actullay with Shulk where he came closest to taking a game. I like Salems knowledge and usage of Monado arts. His Shulk is pretty clean

 

[Nidtendofreak]

This is such a brutal post. So what caused you to post this is because Nico got 33rd when he was the only high level shulk that attended? You do realize 33rd out of 1250 is not an awful placing? And Nico is not the caliber of player that is expected to contend for top 8s at majors.

5 months into a game and you wanna want to proclaim his meta game dead. Got it

I've seen this song and dance since day 1 of Brawl. I know a pattern when I see one with overrated characters due to "potential" that never materializes. Need I repeatedly remind people of Palutena in SSB4 who got over placed in people's tier lists by a significant portion because of about 6-8 weeks of good results before completely falling off of the map because people adapted accordingly? Or... Shulk during almost the entirety of SSB4's pre-dlc meta? Or Pikachu in Brawl?

If you think bottom of high tier/top of mid tier is "dead meta", that's on you and your perceptions. I certainly don't.

End of the day: tier lists are about current impact on the meta game, not future potential because we cannot evaluate future potential with any level of accuracy particularly when you remember that patches exist and change things thus rendering "future potential" evaluations fruitless. You can have some amount of impact on the meta game all the way down to the bottom of mid tier, sometimes even the top of low tier. Don't need to be upper half of high tier or top tier to impact things.

People also don't see to understand results are what proves claims and think you can only look at the paper work and figure it out from there. Best rebuttal I can give to this is within my own field of lab work. There are situations in science where you know exactly how things should work in a reaction. You do the paper work, you know that the reaction flows both ways making the product from the reactants and the reactants from the products but due to the conditions it will favour the products and fall out of solution at about a 60% rate. You do the experiment and... it doesn't happen like that, you only got a 20% rate. Not because of anything you did wrong, you made sure no contamination happened or outside influence: the reactions just happened to favour the other direction because of how the molecules clustered in the solution despite what the paper work says. You try again. If it keeps happening not the way the paper says it should, then either you have the worst luck in the world (which is actually possible for these things in science, fun fun), or there's another factor you didn't consider that wouldn't show up on the paper work.

Character frame data, damage, knockback, combos, all of that stuff: that's all the reaction paper work you do before hand. The results are what prove if 1) you've done the paper work correctly 2) if you're missing a factor that isn't quantifiable 3) if there's simply bad luck but said bad luck doesn't change reality and you have to work within that reality. All of those are things that need to be included in an accurate evaluation of a character, not just the paper work. Any evaluation that only looks at the paper work, or even merely heavily favours the paper work, its significantly flawed and frankly irrelevant. Needs to be a 50/50 weighing, with some adjustment for clone/semi-clone characters because obviously having a character that's almost identical but proven better is going to heavily impact results.

---

Now, for Salem busting out Shulk, that's pretty cool. As I noted earlier I didn't consider Shulk to really be pocket character material. Salem is kinda nutty with technical characters though, I shouldn't be as surprised as I am. Second time wasn't the charm, but still cool. Also amazing to see Pac-Man up there again.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Tweek 3-1 VoiD; MkLeo 3-2 Marss

Tweek and MkLeo now meet eachother in winner's finals.

 

[NotLiquid]

I think Joker might be good

 

[Lacrimosa]

Do we still think is bottom 5 (according to Zero's nowadays awful tierlist)?
I mean, I see still people in Twich chat saying that he's awful. I know it's not the best source but it shows that if a top-player, in this case ZeRo, talks bad about a character, that the sentiment doesn't really go away, despite the results. And we have to say that Maister does put work into this character and gutted ESAM pretty convincingly at Combo Breaker with 2-1.
He's now even in GF at Combo Breaker with G&W, beat yeti () 3-2 according to smash.gg.

 

[Impax]

^It's weird they scheduled 2 big tournaments at once.

is looking weak in this game. She's the 2nd lightest character, has no disjoints and the worst fall speed of the cast. Rest's endlag got buffed but it's still punishable on wiff and Jiggz has to get close to use it. IMO she's low tier. I guess Hungrybox was good at Melee but he's held back by her in Ultimate.

She has a bad matchup spread. I also think low tier. Shes not terrible though. Shes ruthless off stage

 

[KakuCP9]

And people say that Arsene up-b needs to buffed. Hellll naw. With that combination damage output, frame data and hitboxes, he should not come back when he gets sent offstage without significant risk.

 

[Lacrimosa]

I guess being a top-tier means having broken hitboxes. Even Samsora didn't understand why that killed.
Also lol @ Shieks uAir. That should've definitely killed :/.

 

[Rizen]

Do we still think is bottom 5 (according to Zero's nowadays awful tierlist)?
I mean, I see still people in Twich chat saying that he's awful. I know it's not the best source but it shows that if a top-player, in this case ZeRo, talks bad about a character, that the sentiment doesn't really go away, despite the results. And we have to say that Maister does put work into this character and gutted ESAM pretty convincingly at Combo Breaker with 2-1.
He's now even in GF at Combo Breaker with G&W, beat yeti () 3-2 according to smash.gg.

G&W's a polarizing mid tier. He can shut down energy projectile characters with bucket and has clutch factor 9s that look good in highlight videos but aren't reliable. G&W has good aerial weaving and chef is actually useful now but he's not as good as sword zoners or characters with better projectiles. He falls into a semi-zoner/bait and combo jack of all trades role. He's great offstage but also extremely light at a mere 75 units. If he was heavier and/or had more power he could be high tier but as it stands he fits pretty well into mid tier.

 

[The_Bookworm]

I guess being a top-tier means having broken hitboxes. Even Samsora didn't understand why that killed.
Also lol @ Shieks uAir. That should've definitely killed :/.

I think VoiD somehow extended his hurtbox to the back air, but that is still a wacky interaction.

Also Sheik_kill_power.mp4.

 

[$.A.F.]

Nairo just took a game off Marss with Robin.

 

[Lavani]

I guess being a top-tier means having broken hitboxes. Even Samsora didn't understand why that killed.

Bair's hitbox is unchanged from Smash 4. Amusingly, it covers more of Peach's front than you'd probably expect in that game too.

The way Sheik leans back when hit makes it look jankier than it was. VoiD was just standing idle at the ledge, but he was well within that hitbox's range.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Marss 3-2 Nairo

Wow.. Nairo took the idea of CP meta to the very extreme after falling behind 0-2 in the ZSS mirror abd it almost worked for him He won a game with Wolf, with Robin but list with Dark Pit. Was Nairo's gosl just to confuse Marss with different MU's he may not of had experince in?

 

[PK Gaming]

I really don't like how Marss plays ZSS

 

[Lacrimosa]

Bair's hitbox is unchanged from Smash 4. Amusingly, it covers more of Peach's front than you'd probably expect in that game too.

The way Sheik leans back when hit makes it look jankier than it was. VoiD was just standing idle at the ledge, but he was well within that hitbox's range.

That thing is called a BACK air. It has no reason to cover that much of her front :/. Especially when considering the animation of that attack.

 

[Cheryl~]

I think I’m convinced by MkLeo 3-0ing Tweek with Joker alone that Joker is at the very least a top of high-tier character. He may still be new which means counterplay has to be developed but all of his insane positive traits in Arsene, his edgeguarding, and Gun just being a great tool in general easily outweighs whatever negatives you may find with him.

 

[NairWizard]

I really don't like how Marss plays ZSS

That's the best way to play ZSS. You can't afford to make reads if you don't have the right reward, so patient safe play is the only alternative. Any character with undertuned advantage state is going to have to play lame like this, if they can (and if they can't, they're going to be bad).

 

[The_Bookworm]

Combo Breaker 2019
1st: Maister
2nd: yeti
3rd: Zinoto
4th: MVD
5th: ESAM
5th: tyroy
7th: ANTi
7th: Dill
9th: Pelca
9th: Ned
9th: Kain
9th: Comet

Maister retains the Combo Breaker crown today after winning it last year as well, after 3 sets of fighting yeti and defeating ESAM.



MomoCon 2019
1st: MkLeo
2nd: Tweek
3rd: Marss
4th: Samsora
5th: Nairo
5th: VoiD
7th: Salem
7th: Sinji
9th: Dabuz
9th: Ally
9th: WaDi
9th: Shoyo James
13th: Dark Wizzy
13th: Light
13th: Cosmos
13th: Myran

Spoiler: 17th - 25th

17th: Goblin
17th: Ryuga
17th: CaptainZack
17th: Peabnut
17th: Wrath
17th: Suarez
17th: Umeki
17th: MuteAce
25th: Morpheus
25th: Captain L
25th: BlazingPasta
25th: ScAtt
25th: RFang
25th: Mr E
25th: Fatality
25th: VinnyG

Spoiler: Other Notable Players Out Earlier

33rd: Mr.R
33rd: Nicko
33rd: Laid
33rd: Scot
33rd: HyperKirby
33rd: Sonido
33rd: LingLing
33rd: Donquavious
33rd: Pipp
49th: SaltOne
49th: Akashic
49th: JTails
49th: Mekos
49th: Uncivil Ninja
65th: Rideae
65th: Tachyon
65th: Reflex
65th: Blank
65th: dyr
65th: Mr. Bones
97th: Biddy

Leo won the entire tournament with almost solo Joker (he used Lucina against RFang in pools). Definitely a big spotlight on Joker as a character.
Tweek's Roy once again slayed Marss (who went Ike this time), but then got 3-stocked by Leo. For now, Tweek's Roy remains a Marss counterpick only.

 

[NotLiquid]

Joker wins his first major.

Common day 1 myths that were dispelled this weekend,

- Joker is mediocre without Arsene
- Joker's Gun sucks
- Joker does not have a good off-stage game
- Joker's hits don't lead into anything/lacks combos

 

[The_Bookworm]

Joker wins his first major.

Common day 1 myths that were dispelled this weekend,

- Joker is mediocre without Arsene
- Joker's Gun sucks
- Joker does not have a good off-stage game
- Joker's hits don't lead into anything/lacks combos

I thought the latter two points where disproven on the first few days of the character's release. lmao

 

[Heracr055]

Combo Breaker 2019
1st: Maister
2nd: yeti
3rd: Zinoto
4th: MVD
5th: ESAM
5th: tyroy
7th: ANTi
7th: Dill
9th: Pelca
9th: Ned
9th: Kain
9th: Comet

Maister retains the Combo Breaker crown today after winning it last year as well, after 3 sets of fighting yeti and defeating ESAM.



MomoCon 2019
1st: MkLeo
2nd: Tweek
3rd: Marss
4th: Samsora
5th: Nairo
5th: VoiD
7th: Salem
7th: Sinji
9th: Dabuz
9th: Ally
9th: WaDi
9th: Shoyo James
13th: Dark Wizzy
13th: Light
13th: Cosmos
13th: Myran

Spoiler: 17th - 25th

17th: Goblin
17th: Ryuga
17th: CaptainZack
17th: Peabnut
17th: Wrath
17th: Suarez
17th: Umeki
17th: MuteAce
25th: Morpheus
25th: Captain L
25th: BlazingPasta
25th: ScAtt
25th: RFang
25th: Mr E
25th: Fatality
25th: VinnyG

Spoiler: Other Notable Players Out Earlier

33rd: Mr.R
33rd: Nicko
33rd: Laid
33rd: Scot
33rd: HyperKirby
33rd: Sonido
33rd: LingLing
33rd: Donquavious
33rd: Pipp
49th: SaltOne
49th: Akashic
49th: JTails
49th: Mekos
49th: Uncivil Ninja
65th: Rideae
65th: Tachyon
65th: Reflex
65th: Blank
65th: dyr
65th: Mr. Bones
97th: Biddy

Leo won the entire tournament with solo Joker (I think he used Lucina against a Pichu in pools). Definitely a big spotlight on Joker as a character.
Tweek's Roy once again slayed Marss (who went Ike this time), but then got 3-stocked by Leo. For now, Tweek's Roy remains a Marss counterpick only.

Unless Nairo took a game from anyone prior to Marss remove ZSS from his placing above. Also put Robin and Wolf because Nairo took a game each with them.

 

[Cheryl~]

Unless Nairo took a game from anyone prior to Marss remove ZSS from his placing above. Also put Robin and Wolf because Nairo took a game each with them.

He won against Light 3-1 using ZSS actually, which is why she’s placed there.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Okay, this may sound weird. Without Arsene Joker seems like a slightly lesser Smash 4 and then becomes something like Smash 4 Limit Cloud with Arsene with his crazy mobility, hitboxes, combos and moves that can kill you at like 70-80