Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Rizen]

Joker's looking like a high tier but I think a lot of the credit goes to MKLeo. I wonder if he'll keep Joker or if this is another phase. Either way he always has Lucina to fall back on.

Another bad day for the Links with only Zuki's Link finishing 49th. I think the initial hype has worn off and Link's getting overshadowed by sword characters who actually have good frame data. YL remains a technical character who is undertuned and outclassed by Olimar, Inkling etc and TL was never very popular. If Salem picked up Link or Tweek started CPing YL again they might get some results but for now they're fading to obscurity.

 

[Game7a1]

Unless Nairo took a game from anyone prior to Marss remove ZSS from his placing above. Also put Robin and Wolf because Nairo took a game each with them.

Nairo used ZSS to beat Light.

 

[PK Gaming]

That's the best way to play ZSS. You can't afford to make reads if you don't have the right reward, so patient safe play is the only alternative. Any character with undertuned advantage state is going to have to play lame like this, if they can (and if they can't, they're going to be bad).

I feel like his yolo burst options cost him dearly in some matches

He's on the right track, but he needs to reign it in a little (and especially relax on his grabs imo)

 

[Arthur97]

Still waiting for someone other than MKLeo to do similar things with Joker before I'll say he's top of high tier. If he's the only one having such break out success with Joker, I lean more toward player skill.

 

[DelugeFGC]

I guess being a top-tier means having broken hitboxes. Even Samsora didn't understand why that killed.
Also lol @ Shieks uAir. That should've definitely killed :/.

I mean I often NAir people with Ganon with their hurtbox lingering somewhere in Ganon's.. rear, region. This is by no means exclusive to Peach/Daisy.

 

[Rizen]

I mean I often NAir people with Ganon with their hurtbox lingering somewhere in Ganon's.. rear, region. This is by no means exclusive to Peach/Daisy.

Ganon's Fair and Isabelle's Fsmash hits slightly behind them too.

 

[Nemesis561]

Do we still think is bottom 5 (according to Zero's nowadays awful tierlist)?
I mean, I see still people in Twich chat saying that he's awful. I know it's not the best source but it shows that if a top-player, in this case ZeRo, talks bad about a character, that the sentiment doesn't really go away, despite the results. And we have to say that Maister does put work into this character and gutted ESAM pretty convincingly at Combo Breaker with 2-1.
He's now even in GF at Combo Breaker with G&W, beat yeti () 3-2 according to smash.gg.

Imo game and watch is scratching the surface of a high tier if he isnt already there. Chef is now an amazing neutral tool and ledge trapping tool, nair is a giant anti air/combo tool. These two moves give him a semblance of a neutral game which he really lacked in smash 4. Even though Is very light, his ability to break out of combos with Up B, nearly incontestable recovery and really good disadvantage state make it so that he survives longer than a character his weight should. If you try to edge guard him many times the situation will be reversed against you. Best way to play this character is slow paced and reactive since he doesnt have a good forward facing aerial to pressure with.

Good boxing game, amazing edge guarding and ledge trapping, decent grab combos at low %, very good at trapping landings with dash attack, decent kill power and very deadly kill potential at ledge (f tilt, down smash), great juggling game with nair and up air. And good results at local and national level. (Maister, Extra)

 

[Wunderwaft]

Do we still think is bottom 5 (according to Zero's nowadays awful tierlist)?
I mean, I see still people in Twich chat saying that he's awful. I know it's not the best source but it shows that if a top-player, in this case ZeRo, talks bad about a character, that the sentiment doesn't really go away, despite the results. And we have to say that Maister does put work into this character and gutted ESAM pretty convincingly at Combo Breaker with 2-1.
He's now even in GF at Combo Breaker with G&W, beat yeti () 3-2 according to smash.gg.

G&W is in my opinion at the higher end of mid tier. The biggest complaint I've heard about him is that his forward aerial sucks, when that is not true at all. Sure the move may seem uncomfortable at first, but it's a great spacing and edgeguarding tool if the player uses it right. This is one of the few moves that can contest Wolf's Flash as long as it explodes at the moment he jumps in. His bucket now reflects physical projectiles as well, Link's arrows and Zelda's knight for example will be reflected right back at their opponent. His up b is a great recovery tool, a great combo tool, a great combo breaker, and a great OOS. Down Smash can now bury opponents which usually leads to a KO. Judge is still the unreliable luck-based comeback factor that it always was. Chef is a good ledge trapping tool. Down aerial can actually hit some opponents that are below a platform.

These are not the traits of a low tier, let alone a bottom tier. G&W actually has a solid neutral game with his moves and his edgeguarding ability is excellent as well. Time will tell where he resides on the tier list, but I doubt he's a low tier.

 

[The_Bookworm]

In Marss' interview prior to top 8, Marss brings up some interesting things about the metagame at large that we kind of scratched the surface of.

 

[NotLiquid]

Still waiting for someone other than MKLeo to do similar things with Joker before I'll say he's top of high tier. If he's the only one having such break out success with Joker, I lean more toward player skill.

I think it's a little silly to surmise a character is only as good as a perceived ceiling that's been met by one player being mirrored by others, because realistically you won't be seeing many top players of MKLeo's caliber getting in line. "Similar" is something you gotta ask in relative terms, and Joker isn't without results in that regard; he's already made waves in regionals and larger sized tournaments courtesy of players like Stroder, Zackray, KEN, Tyroy, Wrath, and SDX. Even Tweek has experience with Joker, which is why him losing to MKLeo was pretty of note.

 

[Arthur97]

I think it's a little silly to surmise a character is only as good as a perceived ceiling that's been met by one player being mirrored by others, because realistically you won't be seeing many top players of MKLeo's caliber getting in line. "Similar" is something you gotta ask in relative terms, and Joker isn't without results in that regard; he's already made waves in regionals and larger sized tournaments courtesy of players like Stroder, Zackray, KEN, Tyroy, Wrath, and SDX. Even Tweek has experience with Joker, which is why him losing to MKLeo was pretty of note.

I'm saying an amazing player can make a fighter look better than they are. Remember when he picked up Ike? Besides, these meta game discussions love to jump the gun. Meanwhile, I stay cautious. I'm just not going to call Joker one of the best in the game yet.

 

[DelugeFGC]

I used to hate G&W in Ult but honestly I like his new FAir, if the move was tweaked it'd actually have a ton of potential on its own.

He has an RNG win condition locked in his Side-B that can take stocks at pretty much any point in a match if you're above white percents, not to mention very good frame data on his smash attacks. BAir is a fantastic aerial that works in a variety of situations.. Up B out of shield is still a thing like it always has been too. His jab is actually pretty fast and thus a decent panic button sometimes, otherwise you're likely able to get out F/USmash. His DSmash confirms into his FSmash and has a ton of range.. DTilt is an awesome move and the low launch angle on it can screw characters with unfortunate recoveries at quite low %'s if he hits you with it on the ledge. FTilt hurts quite a lot.. UTilt sucks though. Also his neutral B does way more damage than it has any business doing when you get someone trapped with it. He can edge guard for days, his DAir isn't even actually risky to use offstage due to how good his recovery is.. overall G&W has a lot going for him.. hell bucket alone has some promise.

Has a lot going against him too, sure. His roll is downright tragic. FAir doesn't work properly sometimes, he can be pretty lacking in the range department and he has moves like UTilt that make you question your sanity. That said, I still can't put him lower than mid tier, MU inexperience does wonders for this character as well.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

I'm saying an amazing player can make a fighter look better than they are. Remember when he picked up Ike? Besides, these meta game discussions love to jump the gun. Meanwhile, I stay cautious. I'm just not going to call Joker one of the best in the game yet.

Well Ike is still considered a very good character despite MKLeo not really using him anymore, and to be fair. I dont think too many peoplw are saying he is on the level of Olimar, Peach etc. Its just that he is looking like a solid high-tier which is a sizable section of the cast is also considered to be.

 

[DelugeFGC]

In Marss' interview prior to top 8, Marss brings up some interesting things about the metagame at large that we kind of scratched the surface of.

Yet another person who does not use Olimar calling him simple.. oh boy.

Regardless of how 'top' pro you are I generally just dislike it when people speak about characters they don't even use as if they're an expert on the meta state of that particular character. You can make comments about where a character is now, but unless you're out there labbing the Space Cowboy with us and running into constant developmental walls, you're kind of just talking out your ass when you say stuff like that.

No offense to Marss, it's not even exclusive to him. Lots of people do it, I do agree with his overall point that the meta is young, but I don't think most of top tier is just done growing either.. especially not Olimar. Olimar is not nearly as simple as everyone seems to think he is, there's a lot of wild stuff you can do with him and I'm still to this day figuring stuff out and optimizing him further.

A character is always gonna seem figured out, until someone finds that next thing.. at least when people actually use that character. Like I honestly don't see Snake ceasing optimization or development for a looong time, Olimar either. Just because people have found very viable things about them already doesn't mean there still isn't stuff to tap out of those veins.

 

[Kiligar]

Regardless of how 'top' pro you are I generally just dislike it when people speak about characters they don't even use as if they're an expert on the meta state of that particular character.

Interesting how I feel the same...

 

[Arthur97]

Well Ike is still considered a very good character despite MKLeo not really using him anymore, and to be fair. I dont think too many peoplw are saying he is on the level of Olimar, Peach etc. Its just that he is looking like a solid high-tier which is a sizable section of the cast is also considered to be.

And I can certainly believe Joker is high tier, but let's not jump the top tier gun.

 

[DelugeFGC]

Interesting how I feel the same...

I imagine it's common. We all pick a main, it's up to us to help set them apart from over 70 other characters.

I'm just tired of people acting like Olimar is the easiest character in the game to play and that good results just fly out of him for free because you flicked the C-Stick a few times.. that in particular salts me up like a fresh order of fries. Lmfao.

 

[Rizen]

[G&W] not to mention very good frame data on his smash attacks.

I want to nitpick this. G&W's smash attack frame data is terrible. Fsmash starts f17, Usmash f21 and Dsmash f12. Usmash went from one of the best smashes in SSB4 to complete garbage because it lost the f4 intangibility. G&W's mostly forced to sweetspot Dsmash>bury>Fsmash to land anything. A f12 Dsmash is usable but a fast Dsmash is more like F6.

 

[Game7a1]

I want to nitpick this. G&W's smash attack frame data is terrible. Fsmash starts f17, Usmash f21 and Dsmash f12. Usmash went from one of the best smashes in SSB4 to complete garbage because it lost the f4 intangibility. G&W's mostly forced to sweetspot Dsmash>bury>Fsmash to land anything. A f12 Dsmash is usable but a fast Dsmash is more like F6.

While the start-up of his smash attacks may be slow, the endlag on each of them is pretty respectable (especially compared to his tilts). And despite Up-Smash's invincibility being reworked, it still serves well as a combo starter thanks to its low-ish endlag. Up-Smash also lasts 2 more frames compared to Smash 4, making it better at punishing rolls and dodges. As well, both F-Smash and D-Smash are disjointed, with the latter being able to catch people off-guard thanks to having a good vertical hitbox.

I'm not saying they're the greatest Smash attacks in the game (although I think very highly of his D-Smash), but they're good enough to be used and considered. I don't think looking at a move solely on its frames is the best way to judge it.

 

[KirbySquad101]

Do we still think is bottom 5 (according to Zero's nowadays awful tierlist)?
I mean, I see still people in Twich chat saying that he's awful. I know it's not the best source but it shows that if a top-player, in this case ZeRo, talks bad about a character, that the sentiment doesn't really go away, despite the results. And we have to say that Maister does put work into this character and gutted ESAM pretty convincingly at Combo Breaker with 2-1.
He's now even in GF at Combo Breaker with G&W, beat yeti () 3-2 according to smash.gg.

I will just start off by saying, holy crap, the GF between yeti and Maister was intense. I was a bit shaky from it all, but I'm glad to see Maister pull through once more; that said, yeti performed very well, even managing to reset the bracket.

As someone who mains G&W, I will give the best thoughts I can about him overall, based on my experience with him and Maister's experience with him:

sort of fits the bill as far as a jack-of-all-trades character, and possesses attributes that you would see with characters like and . A majority of his attacks allow him to respond to a variety of situations: He possesses a reflector, has disjoints in certain moves, possesses projectiles to control space with, possesses some combo tools, and has both fast, unsafe KO options, while also holding slower, but safer KO options. Unlike, say, a character like Mario, though, Mr. Game and Watch isn't really about rushing the opponent down with strong frame data, but rather utilizing his variety of options and good air mobility as an mix-up trapper-esque character that forces reactions from the opponent that turns the battle in his favor.

Because of the nature of his character, Mr. Game and Watch has a strong set of defensive tools that allow him to convert to more aggressive options. Bucket is a very good reflector/absorption tool that makes it risky for characters like and to utilize their strongest projectiles. Against Yeti, Maister made good capitalization off of yeti's use of Mega Man's pellets and charge shots, which allowed him to score KOs when needed. Back aerial is another very strong move that turns the tide in G&W's favor: The move is very disjointed and sets up the perfect angle for an edge guard. Fire is an extremely fast OoS that pops the opponent up in the air for juggling shenanigans, and can actually be somewhat to punish as the move has a quick duration of only 37 frames. Forward aerial is spammable, can poke shields freely, and can score KOs all at once, making shielding against G&W/approaching him as a whole a risky option. The move is not meant to be used as a aerial combat tool, but rather a poking option to cover more space. Chef racks up a ton of damage can cover a lot of options thanks to its arc, and it sets up for grabs.

Mr. Game and Watch is at his best against opponents above him and when opponents are off the stage. Neutral aerial/up aerial chains rack up damage very fast and keep the opponents in a disadvantageous state. Both options have also cover a lot of space, which combined with Game and Watch's strong aerial mobility, makes it hard for the opponent to escape being in a bad spot. Against opponents offstage, Mr. Game and Watch is allowed to constantly harass the opponent with multiple uses of back air and down air, not only because of back air's very low endlag, but because Mr. Game and Watch has a really strong recovery that covers a ton of vertical distance. Even without taking that into account Mr. Game and Watch also has good ways to put opponents in these types of situations: Neutral aerial catches jumping opponents, his grab has good range and his down throw sets up for neutral aerials and up aerials; back aerial, sourspotted down smash, forward tilt, and Fire's late hit all send the opponent directly horizontally, which is the best angle Game and Watch wants the opponent at for edgeguarding.

Mr. Game and Watch also sports a plethora of KO options. Let's get the creme of the crop out of the way: Down smash is utterly ridiculous. The move is almost as spammable and safe as Olimar's up smash, has a strong disjoint, and its sweetspot is a literal KO confirm at percents as low as 70%. The move is really good against grounded opponents rushing him down, and is very strong at covering the ledge. Putting that aside. forward smash is powerful and has good vertical and horizontal reach, which makes it ideal for catching landings, down tilt is a very fast burst option that can catch unsuspecting opponents, and is a solid confirm off of neutral aerial, and forward tilt is strong, fast, and ideal for catching spotdodges. Up smash has gotten weaker as its now easier to contest, but it's still powerful as baiting tool, and thanks to its slow start-up, is very effective at catching spotdoges. It still has insane shield pressure, and can be followed up with forward tilt or down tilt. Granted, he doesn't have much confirms overall, but it grants him multiple mix-up options that make it hard for the opponent to approach him with.

Mr. Game and Watch has multiple issues, however. Generally speaking, his neutral isn't very good. He has options to throw out in neutral, like forward aerial, back aerial, neutral aerial, grab, and Chef, but his moves are generally committal, which can make him easy to punish if you're not spacing well. Because of this, Mr. Game and Watch as a whole performs worse when the opponent knows how to dance around his moves, so constantly mixing up his options and keeping the opponents on his toes is key when playing him.

Aside from back aerial, a lot of his moves don't have a ton of range; this makes him prone to having his attacks beaten out by characters with fast and strong disjoints like or . Granted, he's not hopeless against them as back aerial is a really good tool overall, but it can be uphill battle.

Lastly, Game and Watch has good juggling capabilities, but as far as dealing with landing characters go, he's not very well equipped. I still feel that up tilt is the worst move in his toolkit: Its range is piss poor, and it has too much start-up to make it a good move overall. It can be okay as an anti-air, but its coverage is too minuscule overall to make it reliable as one. Up smash is better as an option for covering landings, but the move has a ton of start-up, which makes it a bit of a gamble to throw out. Dash attack can be good at catching landings, but it doesn't have a lot of vertical range, which can cause it to whiff at times. I'd say forward smash works decently well as an option for catching opponents; even though it has noticeable start-up, it has a good vertical and horizontal disjoint, which makes it a less risky move to use than up smash overall. I honestly think he could easily be a high tier character if he had a really solid and quick anti-air option, and if they did rework up tilt into a weaker, longer ranged, and faster anti-air, he could be really solid overall.

Overall, Game and Watch works best off of conditioning opponents into certain spots and capitalizing on them. With how many flexible tools he has at his disposal, and with how dangerous he can be in advantage, I really can't see him being lower than mid tier, or even possibly the upper end of mid tier. I don't know if I can buy him being a high tier just yet, but I would be lying if I didn't say that Maister's really doing good work with him. Based off his performance with at Combo Breaker and Full Bloom, I can see him going places.

While the start-up of his smash attacks may be slow, the endlag on each of them is pretty respectable (especially compared to his tilts). And despite Up-Smash's invincibility being reworked, it still serves well as a combo starter thanks to its low-ish endlag. Up-Smash also lasts 2 more frames compared to Smash 4, making it better at punishing rolls and dodges. As well, both F-Smash and D-Smash are disjointed, with the latter being able to catch people off-guard thanks to having a good vertical hitbox.

I'm not saying they're the greatest Smash attacks in the game (although I think very highly of his D-Smash), but they're good enough to be used and considered. I don't think looking at a move solely on its frames is the best way to judge it.

I would also add that for how strong each move is, the frame data of each move is really solid overall. Down smash sets up confirms as low as 70%, forward smash starts KOing from anywhere at percents around 100%, and up smash starts KOing as early as 90% now thanks to the knockback buff.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Regarding Lucina, what do you guys think about this:

"Lucina has received a mixture of buffs and nerfs, but has been nerfed overall. Some of the gameplay changes have benefitted Lucina; her high dash speed complements the ability to dash cancel into any attack, allowing her to bait attacks with fox-trotting, and use her tilts as more effective spacing tools. The reduced landing lag on all aerials also makes them safer for spacing and approaching, while also enhancing their combo ability. The new limits on the air dodge also greatly enhance her juggling and edgeguarding capabilities, as they provide less leeway for opponents to recover against her wide aerials. Additionally, Dancing Blade has been sped up greatly, making its hits link into each other much more consistently.

In the transition, however, Lucina received a few noteworthy nerfs. Her jab, previously an excellent combo starter and neutral tool, has been altered as with most jabs so that it can only follow up into the second hit from the first, completely removing its powerful jab cancel from Smash 4. Her already linear recovery is made less safe by the limits on air dodging as well as the reduction in edge sweet spot size, worsening her endurance. Her specials received some small nerfs, with Dolphin Slash and Counter being slightly more punishable than before, and Dancing Blade dealing less damage."

The "quote" is from the Smash Ultimate Wiki, and it's actually about Marth, not Lucina (I altered it), but everything there applies to Lucina too (aside from, arguably, "nerfed" overall). Many people seem to think that Lucina is some kind of top 3-5 when she's arguably not much better than in 4, most of the direct buffs seem to have been small and the direct nerfs more significant, the main reasons she's better is because her worst MUs got nerfed and some of the universal changes benefited her. If characters like Smash 4 Sonic and Smash 4 Diddy Kong were still around Lucina would probably not be considered nearly as good. She's good, sure, probably top tier, probably top 10, but far from the OP character some people make her out to be. She's pretty balanced and doesn't really need buffs or nerfs (it would be nice if her side-B were a bit more consistent though, and up-throw should kill earlier).

 

[Idon]

Regarding Lucina, what do you guys think about this:

"Lucina has received a mixture of buffs and nerfs, but has been nerfed overall. Some of the gameplay changes have benefitted Lucina; her high dash speed complements the ability to dash cancel into any attack, allowing her to bait attacks with fox-trotting, and use her tilts as more effective spacing tools. The reduced landing lag on all aerials also makes them safer for spacing and approaching, while also enhancing their combo ability. The new limits on the air dodge also greatly enhance her juggling and edgeguarding capabilities, as they provide less leeway for opponents to recover against her wide aerials. Additionally, Dancing Blade has been sped up greatly, making its hits link into each other much more consistently.

In the transition, however, Lucina received a few noteworthy nerfs. Her jab, previously an excellent combo starter and neutral tool, has been altered as with most jabs so that it can only follow up into the second hit from the first, completely removing its powerful jab cancel from Smash 4. Her already linear recovery is made less safe by the limits on air dodging as well as the reduction in edge sweet spot size, worsening her endurance. Her specials received some small nerfs, with Dolphin Slash and Counter being slightly more punishable than before, and Dancing Blade dealing less damage."

The "quote" is from the Smash Ultimate Wiki, and it's actually about Marth, not Lucina (I altered it), but everything there applies to Lucina too (aside from, arguably, "nerfed" overall). Many people seem to think that Lucina is some kind of top 3-5 when she's arguably not much better than in 4, most of the direct buffs seem to have been small and the direct nerfs more significant, the main reasons she's better is because her worst MUs got nerfed and some of the universal changes benefited her. If characters like Smash 4 Sonic and Smash 4 Diddy Kong were still around Lucina would probably not be considered nearly as good. She's good, sure, probably top tier, probably top 10, but far from the OP character some people make her out to be. She's pretty balanced and doesn't really need buffs or nerfs (it would be nice if her side-B were a bit more consistent though, and up-throw should kill earlier).

It, along with many other character summaries on the Smash wiki, were made when Smash Ultimate was still new and thus highly unexplored and based off of very few results or research and relied heavily on conjecture and hypotheticals. Relying on them now is just foolish.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

up-throw should kill earlier).

I disagree, Marthcina doesn't need it...
They have a solid enough gameplan as is.

Especially when other characters need it way more.
I'd rather give these guys () more viable kill throws first before considering Marthcina.

 

[Rizen]

While the start-up of his smash attacks may be slow, the endlag on each of them is pretty respectable (especially compared to his tilts). And despite Up-Smash's invincibility being reworked, it still serves well as a combo starter thanks to its low-ish endlag. Up-Smash also lasts 2 more frames compared to Smash 4, making it better at punishing rolls and dodges. As well, both F-Smash and D-Smash are disjointed, with the latter being able to catch people off-guard thanks to having a good vertical hitbox.

I'm not saying they're the greatest Smash attacks in the game (although I think very highly of his D-Smash), but they're good enough to be used and considered. I don't think looking at a move solely on its frames is the best way to judge it.

The only reason G&W's smashes are remotely usable... what am I even saying? When have I ever seen a G&W player Usmash or Fsmash that wasn't on a buried opponent? Dsmash has uses I'll give to you. Although f12 isn't good in this game you can get away with it, we all know Wolf has. Usmash is irredeemably bad. A f21 combo starter? C'mon. Just for reference Ganon's Usmash is f20- faster than G&W's. And Ganon's is huge. The range on G&W's Usmash is trash; it can't even hit a Lylat platform. Tell me if you were playing G&W and had the chance you wouldn't trade his Usmash for 90% of the other Usmashes? Seriously who has a worse Usmash than G&W?

G&W is basically designed to make up for having terrible F/U smashes. G&W has a great upB so he doesn't need to smash OoS. And G&W's Dsmash buries so he can land his f17 Fsmash.

 

[Minordeth]

I disagree, Marthcina doesn't need it...
They have a solid enough gameplan as is.

Especially when other character need it way more.
I'd rather give these guys () more viable kill throws first before considering Marthcina.

I can’t speak for the characters I don’t know very well, so in regards to Falco and Ridley:

Falco would have a semi functional kill throw (sort of) if they weren’t laser dependent. But they are, and DI allows for survival to hilarious percents.

I’d rather Nintendo adjust his Nair to link consistently, which would compensate for a lack of a kill throw.

As for Ridley, I’m of the opinion that any adjustments to Ridley have to be well considered. Of all the cast, it would be extremely easy to tip him over into an oppressive top tier.

Ridley is basically a lighter, faster Ganondorf: swordie range, a traveling command grab (which kills), huge hitboxes, and a burst option dash attack (which kills).

But he also has a multi-level projectile, frame 4 jab, and a useable uptilt.

The only thing that keeps him in check is his awful disadvantage, which is entirely due to Nintendo adjusting his hurtbox pre-release, as he was Bayo-level “how did my move not hit you” skinny.

You want to give him a kill throw, too?

 

[KirbySquad101]

The only reason G&W's smashes are remotely usable... what am I even saying? When have I ever seen a G&W player Usmash or Fsmash that wasn't on a buried opponent? Dsmash has uses I'll give to you. Although f12 isn't good in this game you can get away with it, we all know Wolf has. Usmash is irredeemably bad. A f21 combo starter? C'mon. Just for reference Ganon's Usmash is f20- faster than G&W's. And Ganon's is huge. The range on G&W's Usmash is trash; it can't even hit a Lylat platform. Tell me if you were playing G&W and had the chance you wouldn't trade his Usmash for 90% of the other Usmashes? Seriously who has a worse Usmash than G&W?

G&W is basically designed to make up for having terrible F/U smashes. G&W has a great upB so he doesn't need to smash OoS. And G&W's Dsmash buries so he can land his f17 Fsmash.

At Combo Breaker, Maister actually scored a few kills on yeti off of Up Smash in their Grand Finals and Winners Finals sets. One of which killed Mega Man at a pretty low percent for someone of his weight class (108% if I recall correctly).

 

[Arthur97]

Regarding Lucina, what do you guys think about this:

"Lucina has received a mixture of buffs and nerfs, but has been nerfed overall. Some of the gameplay changes have benefitted Lucina; her high dash speed complements the ability to dash cancel into any attack, allowing her to bait attacks with fox-trotting, and use her tilts as more effective spacing tools. The reduced landing lag on all aerials also makes them safer for spacing and approaching, while also enhancing their combo ability. The new limits on the air dodge also greatly enhance her juggling and edgeguarding capabilities, as they provide less leeway for opponents to recover against her wide aerials. Additionally, Dancing Blade has been sped up greatly, making its hits link into each other much more consistently.

In the transition, however, Lucina received a few noteworthy nerfs. Her jab, previously an excellent combo starter and neutral tool, has been altered as with most jabs so that it can only follow up into the second hit from the first, completely removing its powerful jab cancel from Smash 4. Her already linear recovery is made less safe by the limits on air dodging as well as the reduction in edge sweet spot size, worsening her endurance. Her specials received some small nerfs, with Dolphin Slash and Counter being slightly more punishable than before, and Dancing Blade dealing less damage."

The "quote" is from the Smash Ultimate Wiki, and it's actually about Marth, not Lucina (I altered it), but everything there applies to Lucina too (aside from, arguably, "nerfed" overall). Many people seem to think that Lucina is some kind of top 3-5 when she's arguably not much better than in 4, most of the direct buffs seem to have been small and the direct nerfs more significant, the main reasons she's better is because her worst MUs got nerfed and some of the universal changes benefited her. If characters like Smash 4 Sonic and Smash 4 Diddy Kong were still around Lucina would probably not be considered nearly as good. She's good, sure, probably top tier, probably top 10, but far from the OP character some people make her out to be. She's pretty balanced and doesn't really need buffs or nerfs (it would be nice if her side-B were a bit more consistent though, and up-throw should kill earlier).

Yeah, she gets called OP mostly due to her relative ease of use. Especially when compared to some other top tiers, but she's also probably on the lower end of the top tier. Oddly enough, there don't seem to be many calls for Wolf to be nerfed despite him not being that hard to use either in my opinion.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Regarding Lucina, what do you guys think about this:

"Lucina has received a mixture of buffs and nerfs, but has been nerfed overall. Some of the gameplay changes have benefitted Lucina; her high dash speed complements the ability to dash cancel into any attack, allowing her to bait attacks with fox-trotting, and use her tilts as more effective spacing tools. The reduced landing lag on all aerials also makes them safer for spacing and approaching, while also enhancing their combo ability. The new limits on the air dodge also greatly enhance her juggling and edgeguarding capabilities, as they provide less leeway for opponents to recover against her wide aerials. Additionally, Dancing Blade has been sped up greatly, making its hits link into each other much more consistently.

In the transition, however, Lucina received a few noteworthy nerfs. Her jab, previously an excellent combo starter and neutral tool, has been altered as with most jabs so that it can only follow up into the second hit from the first, completely removing its powerful jab cancel from Smash 4. Her already linear recovery is made less safe by the limits on air dodging as well as the reduction in edge sweet spot size, worsening her endurance. Her specials received some small nerfs, with Dolphin Slash and Counter being slightly more punishable than before, and Dancing Blade dealing less damage."

The "quote" is from the Smash Ultimate Wiki, and it's actually about Marth, not Lucina (I altered it), but everything there applies to Lucina too (aside from, arguably, "nerfed" overall). Many people seem to think that Lucina is some kind of top 3-5 when she's arguably not much better than in 4, most of the direct buffs seem to have been small and the direct nerfs more significant, the main reasons she's better is because her worst MUs got nerfed and some of the universal changes benefited her. If characters like Smash 4 Sonic and Smash 4 Diddy Kong were still around Lucina would probably not be considered nearly as good. She's good, sure, probably top tier, probably top 10, but far from the OP character some people make her out to be. She's pretty balanced and doesn't really need buffs or nerfs (it would be nice if her side-B were a bit more consistent though, and up-throw should kill earlier).

There is a reason why this summary isn't used for Lucina: because she benefits a lot more from the game engine than Marth does. Although Marth being "nerfed overall" is pretty subjective (and I personally disagree with their decision to label Lucario as "nerfed overall"), but Marth received more of a mixed bag than Lucina.

The jab nerf, while it does harm Lucina, is a bigger nerf to Marth, as it allowed reliable KO setups into tipper moves like forward and up tilt, and is overall his most reliable way of landing tipper KOs. While Marth does benefit a lot from Ultimate's mechanics, unlike Lucina, his spacing has been made worse due to everyone else getting faster (as well as Perfect Pivoting getting removed). Lucina, in the meantime, reaps all the benefits of the game engine and is not as affected by the jab nerf not nearly as Marth does.

While Marth is a more mixed bag from SSB4, Lucina is simply a direct improvement from SSB4.

However, I do agree that her being labeled as "OP" is kind of silly, especially considering that her top representation is pretty much limited to just Mr E, ProtoBanham, Laid, Etsuji, and MkLeo (the latter of which is starting to use her for only the electric rats). We had Nairo and Zackray use her before, but I haven't seen them in a long time, particularly from Nairo. She is strong, but not OP at the slightest.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

I can’t speak for the characters I don’t know very well, so in regards to Falco and Ridley:

I'm still surprised they haven't fixed Back and Up-Throw for Falco by now...

As for , currently his best kill throw is D-Throw at around 190% or later, depending on stage of course.

I'd just re-adjust Up-Throw to kill on average at around 160%. (similar to 's Up-Throw & later then 's Up-Throw)
The move does a lot damage, it makes sense for Ridley's gameplan and it's kind of a standard of big-body's to have decent kill throws.
(unless you're & )

Honestly, myself and many others don't see him as a problem character, so I think this change would be fine.

 

[Shaya]

Hey, sorry for my lack of activity here as of recent - elsewhere the website has been taking up my activity.
...
You might be surprised to hear that the CCI, of all places, is heaven.

While Marth does benefit a lot from Ultimate's mechanics, unlike Lucina, his spacing has been made worse due to everyone else getting faster.

I really don't believe the two have true correlation with one another and that it should stop being a point made, generally and genuinely.

Why is this assumed to be the case? Can you prove this is the case?

Loss of jab's vertical knockback and hitbox size reductions on tippers are objective and are likely more applicable. The game engine macroing jump inputs, such as buffered fair moving you forward or full hops being difficult to time is a lot more applicable restriction to the spacing game than "speed".

Why?
Everyone got faster by roughly the same measurement: 5%, on their current stats.
If everyone is 5% faster than is anyone actually faster in context?
It feasibly impacts our ability to play, but by how much? Frame data in this game is not drastically different, in fact in a lot of ways it is more restrictive frame data than S4 and Brawl.

Marth has 5% more movement speed, and just about everyone's ground movement speed is higher than the fastest of aerial mobility. Every character's ability to chase weaving is stronger than weaving itself.

That on top of being able to act out of run with any move makes my ability to get to the places I need to for landing tippers easier.

If I can debunk this "seen as fact" logic anytime soon, then my time in Ultimate will not be wasted, HAHA.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Everyone got faster by roughly the same measurement: 5%, on their current stats.
If everyone is 5% faster than is anyone actually faster in context?

, and cry in the corner*

 

[Browny]

I may have been a big proponent of Joker being quite overrated earlier, and MKLeo once again tears up everyone with joker to prove me wrong...

... but I won't admit defeat until I see someone edgeguard him. I'll say it again, if people who played against Joker did what they do to everyone else where they just stand at the ledge and do absolutely nothing to pressure Jokers recovery, DK/Ganon/Luigi would be high/top tier. Why do people let Joker recover for free all the time?

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/430202940?t=02h40m14s
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/430202940?t=02h41m38s

No effort whatsoever made to edgeguard him and this happens multiple times, every single stock, every single match, no matter who is against Joker. Obviously joker has options he can use to counter edgeguard attempts, but the point is no one ever forces Joker to actually take a risk and choose an option that might get countered itself and lose the stock for it. He can use Eiha? so what, run off and fair him. parry it and drop down dair. trump the tether. Press one single button, please.

 

[Vyrnx]

People are comparing Arsene to limit Cloud as if any iteration of limit has ever been this level of stupid.

Three stocks just makes this somewhat less obvious. Leo was taking his opponent's stock or getting them to kill percent (and usually both) with easily the majority of his Arsenes. I want to look at actual numbers from his sets today--it's clearly not pretty. Top players are of course highly adaptive and we'll see some degree of Joker counterplay by the very next tournament, but it seems to me that Arsene allows pretty minimal counterplay and is yet another (horrible) comeback mechanic that nobody is going to enjoy playing against at any level. We'll just have to wait and see, I guess.

 

[Idon]

People are comparing Arsene to limit Cloud as if any iteration of limit has ever been this level of stupid.

Three stocks just makes this somewhat less obvious. Leo was taking his opponent's stock or getting them to kill percent (and usually both) with easily the majority of his Arsenes. I want to look at actual numbers from his sets today--it's clearly not pretty. Top players are of course highly adaptive and we'll see some degree of Joker counterplay by the very next tournament, but it seems to me that Arsene allows pretty minimal counterplay and is yet another (horrible) comeback mechanic that nobody is going to enjoy playing against at any level. We'll just have to wait and see, I guess.

I am honestly kinda sick of the "auto-buff when hit" kind of character Sakurai seems to be puttin on Cloud, Mac, Lucario, and Joker.

Joker especially feels so frustrating to hit repeatedly and then get forced to deal with Arsene.

 

[Heracr055]

Smash 4 limit made Cloud a faster, heavier and more threatening version of Cloud for as long as he pleased, since there was no timer on having Limit. Comparing Arsene Joker with Cloud in 4 is not an unfounded comparison (except Arsene Joker has a countdown timer).

 

[KakuCP9]

I asked this before, but does Joker's tether work like the Belmonts where the ledge will take priority over the character in the up-b's path making Joker go to the ledge or the up-b will drag the opponent down if they're hit before the tether reaches the ledge?

 

[Idon]

I asked this before, but does Joker's tether work like the Belmonts where the ledge will take priority over the character in the up-b's path making Joker go to the ledge or the up-b will drag the opponent down if they're hit before the tether reaches the ledge?

Joker will prioritize the ledge.

Also, Joker's upB will only pull enemies to him if he's grounded. Otherwise, hitting someone with the tether will do an extremely small amount of damage and knockback.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Well my orginal comparisom of Arsene Joker to Smash 4 Limit Cloud is now you are now dealing a character that has great mobility, giantic hitboxes, huge damage output, great combo ability and can also end your stock at around 80-90% .

Arsene Jokers bair and Smash attacks almost seem LCS of power and abusability. Only differnce is you can potentially stall Joker out and there is a more notable gap of power with and without Arsene.

But I digress Joker possibly becomes the strongest character in the game when Arsene is active. Heck MKleo proved at Momocon Joker is no slouch even without it, in some sets taking most stocks while Arseneless

 

[KakuCP9]

Practically speaking, stalling Joker is borderline impossible outside of one or two characters (and even then, its extremely dangerous) since the only way Arsene will deplete at a non-trivial rate is to hit him and unless you're a hardcore hit-and-run player/character, those engagements will probably get you killed.

 

[Anomika]

About ... In a similar vein to , she may or may not have *directly* been nerfed overall, but the overall game mechanics being changed from SSB4 to SSBU benefits her more, and it shows. I would say that even is also slightly directly nerfed because of down throw combos and up tilt being less reliable at low%. However, the game mechanics and other small buffs to other moves balance the nerfs of his previously mentioned moves. Even then, With a bigger roster and more of fighters becoming viable, Mario's standing in the tier lists is somewhat lower even though he's just as viable as he was in SSB4. As for Lucina, she's more viable because of the changes made to the shield and generally the game favoring more aggressive playstyle, plus the fact that edgeguarding is easier with the changes to the air dodges, she has almost no trouble taking opponents offstage with disjointed hitboxes, and probably because of that many view her as more viable than in previous game. I think Mario will rise in the tier list too, but only time will tell.