Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Ark of Silence101]

It sounded like this tournament was not a good day for Tachyon; he shortly got 2-0'd after by Lemmmon; anyone know who he used?

Also, I'm surprised we haven't made a Momocon Thread yet lol

Even more surprising is that Mr.R is out at a dissapointing 33rd.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Oh wait. I am behind in time. There are plenty of upsets now. lol


SaltOne (DQ'ed to loser's)
Reflex 2-0 Rideae (Sent to loser's)
Ai! 2-0 Rideae (Out at 65th)
Lemmon 2-0 Tachyon (Out at 65th)
Peabnut 2-0 Mr.R (Sent to loser's)

I'm such an idiot. Why do I always change to Roy whenever I get gimped as Chrom. I need more faith in myself. Time for the losers run I guess

— BKROG | Ramin (@Mr_RSmash) May 25, 2019

Later...
BlazingPasta 3-1 Mr.R (Out at 33rd)

I'm out. Placed the lowest I ever have in my carreer. I wanna john so badly LOL but it ain't worth it. All I can say is that I'll clean up my play and come back stronger. Ggs everyone

— BKROG | Ramin (@Mr_RSmash) May 25, 2019

 

[Lacrimosa]

Even more surprising is that Mr.R is out at a dissapointing 33rd.

Same with Nicko (). Out at 33rd.
Doesn't look good for our "top-tier" boy.

Also I wonder if Mystearica is actually there since he plays at SOS Ultimate right now. Looked forward to some play :/.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Same with Nicko (). Out at 33rd.
Doesn't look good for our "top-tier" boy.

Nicko lost Dabuz 3-1 and CaptainZack 3-2. Although he didn't get very far, both of his loses where respectable.

 

[KirbySquad101]

To be fair to Nicko, he performed really well against Dabuz's Olimar and forced him to switch to Palutena; things started to go downhill from there unfortunately :/

Apparently, smash.gg kept flubbing around with the time of each pool, which almost got Salt One eliminated from the tournament altogether. He's now in the Losers Top 128 atm.

Smashgg screwed me over and got DQ'd from winners. In top 128 losers. Almost no motivation to keep playing

— Kola (@Kola_irl) May 25, 2019

 

[Lacrimosa]

Nicko lost Dabuz 3-1 and CaptainZack 3-2. Although he didn't get very far, both of his loses where respectable.

That's true, however being the only Shulk that gets this far is also telling to some degree. Maybe I overlooked one or another one still plays but underrepresentation doesn't help him at MomoCon as well.
Also Dabuz went Palu afaik after game 1 where Dabuz lost.

 

[Rizen]

To be fair to Nicko, he performed really well against Dabuz's Olimar and forced him to switch to Palutena; things started to go downhill from there unfortunately :/

Apparently, smash.gg screwed up and had Salt One eliminated from the Winners Bracket; he's now in the Losers Top 128 atm.

Smashgg screwed me over and got DQ'd from winners. In top 128 losers. Almost no motivation to keep playing

— Kola (@Kola_irl) May 25, 2019

This is another good example of the CP meta. Debuz's Olimar is obviously better but he got downloaded so switching to Palu was a good move. Even if you ignore MUs just the act of keeping your playstyle fresh is a good reason to swap. It's how Tweek beat Marrs after his Wario lost 2 games.

That sucks for Salt.

(smashboards often fails to load after I post)

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Shulk's results are basically irrelevant in the community at this point. A large chunk of top-level players are convinced Shulk is top-tier and will keep putting him there in their respective tier lists.

Its kinda tragic how Joker is even passing Shulk as the "hidden potential" character. He just came out about a month ago and many people are saying the same thingd about him. Whether thar is true or not ; Joker is already getting some very good results since his realease and top-10 player repping him in MKLeo for now at least.

 

[Shyy_Guy595]

It's just crazy how Pichu went from one of the worst in Melee to being an absolute god in Ultimate. I had a feeling he'd be good, and even when it first came out, people were aware of his potential, but wow. Actually usurping its "stronger" brethren and remaining a consistent top tier? Proud of the little guy.

Also happy Olimar is back, because I hated playing as him in 4 but loved him in Brawl. This one is at least noticeably better than his 4 counterpart. As far as Wolf, he still feels tlike the slow brute of the Spacies, but he definitely feels better than he was in Brawl. Very much a fan.

Hoping Pichu, Olimar, and Wolf don't get nerfed real bad in coming updates, but I feel like the former might which could greatly hurt him.

 

[The_Bookworm]

HyperKirby is already in loser's, losing 2-1 to SZB (mained in SSB4, so I am assuming or ).

Speaking of , Biddy has been sent to loser's 2-0 by someone named "Combo".

 

[Spinosaurus]

It's good to see Reflex is still around and kicking with Wario.

 

[PK Bash]

Oh wait. I am behind in time. There are plenty of upsets now. lol


SaltOne (DQ'ed to loser's)
Reflex 2-0 Rideae (Sent to loser's)
Ai! 2-0 Rideae (Out at 65th)
Lemmon 2-0 Tachyon (Out at 65th)
Peabnut 2-0 Mr.R (Sent to loser's)

I'm such an idiot. Why do I always change to Roy whenever I get gimped as Chrom. I need more faith in myself. Time for the losers run I guess

— BKROG | Ramin (@Mr_RSmash) May 25, 2019

Later...
BlazingPasta 3-1 Mr.R (Out at 33rd)

I'm out. Placed the lowest I ever have in my carreer. I wanna john so badly LOL but it ain't worth it. All I can say is that I'll clean up my play and come back stronger. Ggs everyone

— BKROG | Ramin (@Mr_RSmash) May 25, 2019

Ai! used Ness for Ridae I'm pretty sure.
--
With regards to Nicko, 33rd is hardly a disappointing result for him or for Shulk. I don't know if he went solo Shulk or if he used some Joker but either way, the player is good, both characters are very good and 33rd is extremely good. There should be nothing surprising to anyone there.

Nice to see Reflex showing us all he's still got it - wonder if he used any Pokemon Trainer too?

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Dark Wizzy sitting at 17th in winners side? He's definitely the one to watch as far as I'm concerned. He's got some fantastic wins under his belt this tournament already.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

As always, Shulk can't crack top 32 when in a large tournament with actual competition, will continue to be paraded hilariously around as top tier/top 10. He even had secondary character support this time and still couldn't do it.

I ain't even positive Shulk is high tier let alone top tier. Its just a constant train of johns as to why he's underperforming to justify his free ride to top tier or to justify his hilariously overinflated MU claims (lololol no losing MUs), yet no other character gets that luxury. At least other technical characters like Greninja and Joker still make the occasional appearances in top 8 at massive tournaments even when also rocking fairly small player pools.

Shulk's just not relevant to the meta game. Not really. Can't cut it solo/as primary, too complicated to be a pocket/secondary/counter pick option. Just... let it go already people. Complicated or untapped potential =/= good character.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

As always, Shulk can't crack top 32 when in a large tournament with actual competition, will continue to be paraded hilariously around as top tier/top 10. He even had secondary character support this time and still couldn't do it.

I ain't even positive Shulk is high tier let alone top tier. Its just a constant train of johns as to why he's underperforming to justify his free ride to top tier or to justify his hilariously overinflated MU claims (lololol no losing MUs), yet no other character gets that luxury. At least other technical characters like Greninja and Joker still make the occasional appearances in top 8 at massive tournaments even when also rocking fairly small player pools.

Shulk's just not relevant to the meta game. Not really. Can't cut it solo/as primary, too complicated to be a pocket/secondary/counter pick option. Just... let it go already people. Complicated or untapped potential =/= good character.

Dumbest **** I've read in a while and considering where this is that's alarming.

 

[SwagGuy99]

It's just crazy how Pichu went from one of the worst in Melee to being an absolute god in Ultimate. I had a feeling he'd be good, and even when it first came out, people were aware of his potential, but wow. Actually usurping its "stronger" brethren and remaining a consistent top tier? Proud of the little guy.

Also happy Olimar is back, because I hated playing as him in 4 but loved him in Brawl. This one is at least noticeably better than his 4 counterpart. As far as Wolf, he still feels tlike the slow brute of the Spacies, but he definitely feels better than he was in Brawl. Very much a fan.

It's actually kind of cool to see characters who have been considered mid/low/bottom tiers in their previous Smash appearances become good and viable (or at least better/usable) choices in Competitive Smash in the transition to Ultimate. , , , , , ,, , , , , , , , and are some of the more buffed characters and it shows. Even if they aren't top or high tier (like ) they are still notably better than their counterparts from their previous Smash games, they are much more capable of making waves at tournaments (even if they aren't solo viable) and seem to have much more stable matchup spreads overall.

On the other hand, seeing characters nerfed either too hard like , , , or or unfairly like or or both like , is kind of sad to see.

in particular seems like he was hit much harder than necessary in this regard and seems to be regarded by most as a mid to low mid tier at best, but I'm starting to see more people to view him as a low tier, an opinion in which I can see the reasoning behind.

Edit:

Dumbest **** I've read in a while and considering where this is that's alarming.

Dumb in what way? The argument may be bit exaggerated but I can agree at least with Shulk not being top tier, at least not with what we've seen of him so far. While potential shouldn't totally be disregarded when considering a character's viability or tier placement, if the potential is never proven, how do we know it exists?

Look into the story of the competitive opinion on if you want an example of this. A character with 'lots of potential' fading into obscurity because the potential was never found/didn't fully exist.

Also, if you want to know where I'd put Shulk, I'd put him somewhere in high tier. Not enough results to say he's top tier, good enough results and not enough evidence to say he's bad or mediocre.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

How many people entered momocon? Once you realize that it's completely asinine to disregard a 33rd placing. The point hes attempting to make would be valid if momocon was a 100 man tournament. Actually all the results based arguments are stupid and you guys looks silly when you can only point to results to back up your argument and not talk about a characters tools. But yeah keep holding on to results.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Something I think is forgotten or even overlooked when determining character viability is the driver. MKLeo is making Joker a character that has only been out for less than half the game's lifespan look just as good if not better than characters he's been using since launch. Realistically, only about the same roughly 20-30ish players who play this game can consistently top 32 and even less consistently top 8 at majors. Look at any tournament results over majors, it's the same players. That's going to skew things. Characters with player bases who simply aren't at the level of other character player bases will suffer because of it and it makes determining the viability of those characters harder to determine.

This isn't a post made in regards to what I think of Shulk's viability I too am one who wants to see the characters perceived ability be shown but I do think it's disingenuous to not keep this in mind when it comes to his and every characters viability.

 

[Rizen]

Something I think is forgotten or even overlooked when determining character viability is the driver. MKLeo is making Joker a character that has only been out for less than half the game's lifespan look just as good if not better than characters he's been using since launch. Realistically, only about the same roughly 20-30ish players who play this game can consistently top 32 and even less consistently top 8 at majors. Look at any tournament results over majors, it's the same players. That's going to skew things. Characters with player bases who simply aren't at the level of other character player bases will suffer because of it and it makes determining the viability of those characters harder to determine.

That's somewhat true but it works the other way around too. Tweek was never a top player with . The cream rises to the top. If a character's really good people will find and play them. It's no mistake that Salem dropped for .
Even with top tiers it's hard to be consistent at Ultimate; look at MKLeo's poor performance at that big Japanese major Umbr-something (I'm not home atm and can't check).

has some good stuff but he also has terrible frame data. F13 is his fastest aerial iirc. You can play and get almost the range with twice the speed.

 

[Iridium]

How many people entered momocon? Once you realize that it's completely asinine to disregard a 33rd placing. The point hes attempting to make would be valid if momocon was a 100 man tournament. Actually all the results based arguments are stupid and you guys looks silly when you can only point to results to back up your argument and not talk about a characters tools. But yeah keep holding on to results.

1,250 entrants. 33rd place at an event this large is still really good.

Even then, considering how most results for past majors have been in favor of a select group of players in terms of placings, there's definitely more to look at than just results. Shulk is definitely one of those characters who just doesn't get much rep who goes anywhere, and it shows. How well he functions should be just as much a deciding factor.

If anything, he would be closer to l the bottom of high tier or start of mid tier.

Edit: There were DQs. Not sure how many total.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Lukewarm take: Shulk's perception as a hidden potential high/top tier is due to people wanting him to be good more than anything else. And to be fair, I think he's definitely better than he was in 4. His main failing is that he's super high effort to learn and use -- you could probably do better with less investment as pretty much any other character except for maybe other oddballs like Robin. I can't think of a valid reason to use him over other sword users at the top level unless you're just super attached to the character or really really really like the uniqueness of his Arts and/or how long the Monado can extend.

 

[Game7a1]

1,250 entrants. 33rd place at an event this large is still really good.

Registered entrants, but not attending entrants. There were numerous DQs at Momocon. It still is a large event, but it isn't as impressive as 33rd out of an actual 1,250.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Registered entrants, but not attending entrants. There were numerous DQs at Momocon. It still is a large event, but it isn't as impressive as 33rd out of an actual 1,250.

One person was dq'd because of smash.gg errors.

 

[Game7a1]

One person was dq'd because of smash.gg errors.

I recommend you look at pools to see that it was more than 1 DQ.

EDIT: Counting the minimum number of DQ's per side of each round 1 pool (to see how many people didn't show up at all and not late or not DQ'ed), I got a count of 339. So assuming it's about 340 (if made any errors in number gathering or the math), the actual number of people showing up for the tournament was about 910.

 

[NotLiquid]

Lukewarm take: Shulk's perception as a hidden potential high/top tier is due to people wanting him to be good more than anything else.

I don't entirely disagree, and I speculated as much back in April. This is usually the case with most characters that are "complex". Many of them will give the impression of being more impressive than they are due to the breadth of their systems, which isn't to say they're not good, but realistically the time spent learning a character like Shulk isn't going to be a worthy long term investment to a majority of players.

 

[The_Bookworm]

In terms of Chrom/Roy, only two are remaining:

HyperKirby, Blank, and Mr.R are all out in 33rd place.
Shoyo James and Goblin are moving on to top 32, with Shoyo in winner's and Goblin in loser's.


Edit: After defeating Morpheus 3-2, Goblin falls to Dark Wizzy 2-3 to end at a pretty dang good 17th place.

 

[KirbySquad101]

That's a respectable, if not, consistently good placement from Goblin; so far, he's done the best job of representing Roy.

Dark Wizzy's having a really good run with a solo , but I'm hoping history won't repeat itself like what happened with Pound 2019; even the reverse 3-0 by him is the same lol Still, though, he's been doing a stellar job of pushing Mario's meta.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Sinji 3-1 Cosmos

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

That's somewhat true but it works the other way around too. Tweek was never a top player with . The cream rises to the top. If a character's really good people will find and play them. It's no mistake that Salem dropped for .
Even with top tiers it's hard to be consistent at Ultimate; look at MKLeo's poor performance at that big Japanese major Umbr-something (I'm not home atm and can't check).

has some good stuff but he also has terrible frame data. F13 is his fastest aerial iirc. You can play and get almost the range with twice the speed.

For sure I made this point with that in mind. If a top ten talent like Tweek couldn't make Smash 4 Jr work then it's not a player skill issue rather a character issue. Same with Salem and Link but it is rather early still (well not rather it IS early) in Ultimate's lifespan. Nothing is set in stone yet and fluctuations will still occur, like MkLeo's Umebura placement, we all have off days. (And I think it was his first time using Joker in tournament)

 

[NotLiquid]

Cosmos needed to win the set against Sinji. Having to go up against Suarez, WaDi and Samsora in losers was a bad bracket to make it to top 8. He's either going up against characters Inkling struggles against (Yoshi, ROB), or players who are just on another level (Samsora).

Nonetheless while the streak was bound to end eventually, it's a pretty impressive run of consecutive Top 8s in a game that's been so volatile since release, and he finally got a handle of the Olimar matchup last week. Despite only having won one PGR tournament, he's definitely been one of the more consistent players up til now. Not bad for a "character that can't kill".

 

[Game7a1]

And just as the skepticism of Shulk happens, Salem reverse 3-0's Dabuz with .

 

[Arthur97]

So, how much of the Joker hype is him actually being good, and how much is MKLeo just being that good?

 

[Frihetsanka]

Lukewarm take: Shulk's perception as a hidden potential high/top tier is due to people wanting him to be good more than anything else. And to be fair, I think he's definitely better than he was in 4. His main failing is that he's super high effort to learn and use -- you could probably do better with less investment as pretty much any other character except for maybe other oddballs like Robin. I can't think of a valid reason to use him over other sword users at the top level unless you're just super attached to the character or really really really like the uniqueness of his Arts and/or how long the Monado can extend.

I think Shulk is top or high tier but he does take a lot more effort than many other characters, so not many people want to main him. Still, he does have some results here and there, so it's not as bad as people here seem to think.

So, how much of the Joker hype is him actually being good, and how much is MKLeo just being that good?

Several people did well with Joker quickly. It's likely he's, at worst, high-mid tier, likely high tier is my guesstimation.

 

[Arthur97]

I think Shulk is top or high tier but he does take a lot more effort than many other characters, so not many people want to main him. Still, he does have some results here and there, so it's not as bad as people here seem to think.

Several people did well with Joker quickly. It's likely he's, at worst, high-mid tier, likely high tier is my guesstimation.

At the same time, early in, people don't have as good of an idea how to fight him either. I'm a bit more concerned with continued results, but I don't know that. Plus, I've seen him referred to as one of the best, and I don't quite see that.

 

[Cheryl~]

And just as the skepticism of Shulk happens, Salem reverse 3-0's Dabuz with .

Reminder too that Dabuz was the one who sent premier Shulk main Nicko to losers, albeit going mostly Palutena that set compared to this set where he only went Palu in Game 5. Whether this shifts your opinions on Shulk’s viability or not, I think this set showed that Shulk actually has a pretty good matchup against Olimar, as Olimar doesn’t like the insane range of Shulk’s Monado and gets edgeguarded rather easily offstage because of his vulnerable Up-B. This set also can contribute to the secondary/counterpick discussion happening as both players used counterpicks (Salem’s Shulk) or a secondary (Dabuz’s Palutena) in the set.

 

[KirbySquad101]

On a side note, WaDi is definitely showing signs of improvement, and had his best placement at a regional yet, finishing his run at 9th place after losing to Samsora (3-0). He also took out both Cosmos and MuteAce pretty convincingly, so if anything, his placement definitely paves the way for a bright future for .

So, how much of the Joker hype is him actually being good, and how much is MKLeo just being that good?

I feel it's a bit of both atm; MKLeo is a Smash Ultimate God, but he makes the most out of what Joker has to offer, and what Joker has to offer, to be frank, is quite a lot.

With how big of a tempo swing Arsene is, I really can't see him anything less than high tier.

 

[Rizen]

And just as the skepticism of Shulk happens, Salem reverse 3-0's Dabuz with .

IMO this plays more into the counterpick meta than anything. It's like when Nairo's beat Light. Shulk really hasn't done anything to show he's top tier.

I'm not saying Shulk's bad but look how full of s top 8s have been. There's your top tier. Shulk didn't preform well at the Japanese major and a pocket here doesn't cut it.

 

[NotLiquid]

On a side note, WaDi is definitely showing signs of improvement, and had his best placement at a regional yet, finishing his run at 9th place after losing to Samsora (3-0). He also took out both Cosmos and MuteAce pretty convincingly, so if anything, his placement definitely paves the way for a bright future for .

I don't know how the MU changed since Smash 4 but I remember ROB being considered a bit of a problem MU for Peach. I do know firsthand that ROB is one of the few MUs Inkling loses pretty notably, so in that sense I wasn't too surprised to see WaDi take it in such a convincing fashion.

I've always held to the notion that WaDi is kinda underrated. He had a meteoric rise in the end of Smash 4's lifespan, his general Ultimate placements have usually been decent, and even though Thunder Smash wasn't a national it had a bunch of top ranked players in presence, where he placed fourth. Don't sleep on this guy, especially in a world where ROB doesn't have many (relevant) hard counters anymore.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Here is the top 8 bracket:
Winner's
Tweek vs VoiD
Marss vs MkLeo

Loser's
Nairo vs Salem
Sinji vs Samsora


Here is the placings for 9th-25th:
9th: Dabuz
9th: Ally
9th: WaDi
9th: Shoyo James
13th: Dark Wizzy
13th: Light
13th: Cosmos
13th: Myran
17th: Goblin
17th: Ryuga
17th: CaptainZack
17th: Peabnut
17th: Wrath
17th: Suarez
17th: Umeki
17th: MuteAce
25th: Morpheus
25th: Captain L
25th: BlazingPasta
25th: ScAtt
25th: RFang
25th: Mr E
25th: Fatality
25th: VinnyG


Pichu finally gets top 8 at a major again. We will see how far VoiD will push his placement.
Reverse 3-0's were everywhere and the hype didn't stop.

Also, why where you taunting in the last game Shoyo? That is the true reason why you lost. :/

And just as the skepticism of Shulk happens, Salem reverse 3-0's Dabuz with .

Why does our posts in Smashboards end up jinxing everything? lol

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Well earlier in this board there was talk of whether was high-tier or if ot was just Tea being amazing. Well here is another Pac making top 8 at an S-tier competition. Id say its looking more like the former

 

[NotLiquid]

This is a +1200 entrant tournament and not a single Wolf in Top 32.

Weird timeline.