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Personally, I think it's more fun to have top tiers battling each other because they have access to a variety of options that they're using to combat each other and those in the lower tiers, however this is strictly a personal preference. That's why I loved watching other top tiers fight Smash 4 , or seeing how they adapted to the tools that they had.
Or even better: Watching characters who may not be nearly as good as a Top Tier (For Example I would say but honestly, he could probably pass for a Top Tier in Smash 4 not that it matters) use their more limited options to find a way to work around a Top Tier. It is kind of cool to see people find ways to use more limited characters against characters who are clearly better than them.
Ultimate already looks like it has some examples of matchups like that like or against or against where people are able to utilize the strengths of their more limited characters much more efficiently than agaisnt other top tiers because the limited character's strengths are able to play around the specific Top Tier's weakness, even if their strengths may not help them much in other Top Tier matchups.
is the bane of if the special loadout is correct, though certainly puts in work too. / absolutely scare me as , and to a lesser extent & scare me as an main as well. Also and to a lesser extent can be a problem for too.
Ultimate definitely has a strong counter pick meta for top tiers, for sure.
Ness and Lucas actually still lose handily to Snake IMO. His ledge trapping, and edgeguarding just destroy these characters to the point the occasional healing (which can easily be baited and punished with dash attack to set up said ledge/edgeguarding) just does not seem like a huge factor.
I wouldn't say Snake really has any real counters at all. Except MAYBE Inkling due to the very generous percents for uthrow to kill confirm due to Snake's Frame 4, and often staled airdodge. (And overall dealing well with Snake's gamestates)
Olimar, Peach/Daisy, Snake, Inkling, Wolf, Pichu, Lucina, Fox are often considered top tier, and Pikachu, Palutena, Shulk, and Greninja tend to be as well, but not always. Wario/Chrom/Roy/Zero Suit Samus/Marth/Mario are generally considered high tier, sometimes Joker, Pokémon Trainer, Mega Man, and Young Link as well.
In the early meta, Link, Ike, Yoshi, Ness, ROB, and Cloud were often considered high tier, but they have fallen off a bit in favor of other characters. Some people think Pac-Man is high tier but it's hard to tell how much is Pac-Man and how much is Tea being incredibly skilled. Some mid tier mains think their character is high tier as well.
Ness and Lucas actually still lose handily to Snake IMO. His ledge trapping, and edgeguarding just destroy these characters to the point the occasional healing (which can easily be baited and punished with dash attack to set up said ledge/edgeguarding) just does not seem like a huge factor.
I wouldn't say Snake really has any real counters at all. Except MAYBE Inkling due to the very generous percents for uthrow to kill confirm due to Snake's Frame 4, and often staled airdodge. (And overall dealing well with Snake's gamestates)
It isn't the healing, it's the fact that it outright shuts it down some of Snake's options and when stripped of those, Snake isn't built to handle the zoning / projectile play from those characters like he normally would be. It evens the MU out more, maybe Snake still wins, but Snake isn't as overwhelming anymore, that really can't be denied. It becomes a matter of throwing out projectiles and space control attacks at Snake, while his risk undoing work he's already put in which either makes the Snake player not go for the option, or risks them using it not having the outcome they wanted.
The healing isn't really a part of it at all. If you just think about healing when considering these things, Robin's Nosferatu would be literally almost useless, but in reality it's at least a landing / juggle mixup option and such. That's just another example I'm using off the top of my head. It's a more nuanced thing than simply being about shaving off some %, that's all I'm saying.
Snake might slightly lose a few MUs but he's too overtuned to have any real "banes". Snake lives too long, and Utilt's too darn good for him to get shut down, even by absorbers.
I got 5th at a weekly . The important things are this breaks my losing streak and I defeated some of my demons like the Yoshi who kept me from getting top 48 in the past. I lost to the guys who got 4th and 3rd but both times in 2-3 game sets. I'll post more about MUs tomorrow.
My advice is don't try to play based on reactions; it doesn't work in this game. That's what held me back. Go for safe zoning/pokes and make reads.
It isn't the healing, it's the fact that it outright shuts it down some of Snake's options and when stripped of those, Snake isn't built to handle the zoning / projectile play from those characters like he normally would be. It evens the MU out more, maybe Snake still wins, but Snake isn't as overwhelming anymore, that really can't be denied. It becomes a matter of throwing out projectiles and space control attacks at Snake, while his risk undoing work he's already put in which either makes the Snake player not go for the option, or risks them using it not having the outcome they wanted.
The healing isn't really a part of it at all. If you just think about healing when considering these things, Robin's Nosferatu would be literally almost useless, but in reality it's at least a landing / juggle mixup option and such. That's just another example I'm using off the top of my head. It's a more nuanced thing than simply being about shaving off some %, that's all I'm saying.
I'll yield to your Snake experience. But just judging from Ally and MVD vs the EarthBound Boys, while it does seem like neutral is wonky and awkward; Snake's advantage state is more potent than usual. Which kinda balances it out I think.
Inkling looks overall better equipped to deal with snake besides the no hitbox recovery.
Snake might slightly lose a few MUs but he's too overtuned to have any real "banes". Snake lives too long, and Utilt's too darn good for him to get shut down, even by absorbers.
I got 5th at a weekly . The important things are this breaks my losing streak and I defeated some of my demons like the Yoshi who kept me from getting top 48 in the past. I lost to the guys who got 4th and 3rd but both times in 2-3 game sets. I'll post more about MUs tomorrow.
My advice is don't try to play based on reactions; it doesn't work in this game. That's what held me back. Go for safe zoning/pokes and make reads.
Yea. Snake gives me the same 'It's too much' Vibe that pre-patch Cloud, and Corrin gave.
He's not really doing anything he shouldn't be able to in a vacuum, but the reward and reliability for the total lack of commitment just don't line up.
Fortunately, I'm fairly confident he'll be nerfed. For both those reasons, and the fact that the Elite Smash Environment is absolutely going to give him an inflated winrate. (BF being Snake's best stage, and the general difficulty dealing with snake things in lag. Dealing with his landing flowchart most notably)
Like, if I were to bet ANY character were to be nerfed, it'd be Snake.
I'll yield to your Snake experience. But just judging from Ally and MVD vs the EarthBound Boys, while it does seem like neutral is wonky and awkward; Snake's advantage state is more potent than usual. Which kinda balances it out I think.
Inkling looks overall better equipped to deal with snake besides the no hitbox recovery.
Yea. Snake gives me the same 'It's too much' Vibe that pre-patch Cloud, and Corrin gave.
He's not really doing anything he shouldn't be able to in a vacuum, but the reward and reliability for the total lack of commitment just don't line up.
Fortunately, I'm fairly confident he'll be nerfed. For both those reasons, and the fact that the Elite Smash Environment is absolutely going to give him an inflated winrate. (BF being Snake's best stage, and the general difficulty dealing with snake things in lag. Dealing with his landing flowchart most notably)
Like, if I were to bet ANY character were to be nerfed, it'd be Snake.
I'm actually more referring to Mii Gunner's ability to give Snake a hard time than I was Ness / Lucas, but I still think the absorber makes enough of a difference for them in neutral to where it can give a Snake player problems.
Though with dash attack and UTilt still being a thing, Snake definitely.. is still Snake, I suppose.
You guys are ignoring the Blue Bomber again as far as Snake trouble MUs? He is a losing MU for Snake at minimum, and at times make this top tier seem impotent.
I’m still kind of having the idea that Diddy is a sort of mid tier gate keeper, one of the best in Mid Tier that determines which character is high tier and who not. Diddy still has a good kit, it’s just that the engine doesn’t favor him and many top tiers play his game better, noticeably Inkling, the Chus, Fox, Wolf and Greninja. Diddy has many of their good attributes but with far more exploitable weaknesses.
Diddy along with the likes of Bayonetta, Sheik, Mewtwo, Meta Knight, Falco and Marth really don’t need all that many buffs to be able to compete with the higher and top tiers honestly. I think these characters have a potential future if they keep getting buffs down the line.
is the bane of if the special loadout is correct, though certainly puts in work too. / absolutely scare me as , and to a lesser extent & scare me as an main as well. Also and to a lesser extent can be a problem for too.
Ultimate definitely has a strong counter pick meta for top tiers, for sure.
I used to pocket Gunner almost solely to CP Snake but the 3.0.0 patch really did a number on Gunner, moreso than any other character I would argue. Whereas before he could easily lock Snake down with projectiles, the shieldstun nerf allows Snake to easily block them and mount an approach with dash attack, sometimes while you’re still in endlag. Gunner still outzones Snake for the most part but he loses hard up close and cannot keep Snake out as effectively as before. I wouldn’t say this MU is much better than even now.
I generally just deal with Snake as Greninja these days. From what I’ve seen pro Greninja players fail to camp Snake effectively and play his usual baiting and poking game, which doesn’t work at all because of grenades. Sitting back and spamming shurikens has been very successful for me, especially since the fully charged variant goes through all his traps. Greninja can effectively mobility camp him as well.
I still play R.O.B every now and then. The buffs that he received in this game have really done him well. Seriously, the Arm Rotor feels so different and so much better in this game. The landing lag reduction has also really helped the robot a lot. Probably my favorite move of his kit is the neutral aerial, it's a great combo tool and a good get off me option, it also slightly helps R.O.B's disadvantage state if he's falling from above.
It's actually really crazy how well balanced the cast is. I think issues only arise due to a lack of necessary cues, and overall ambiguity I don't feel is warranted.
Like Pikmin order being so ambiguous, or the awkwardness involved in swatting them off due to the far more accurate hurtboxes.
Or the fact when you're on the ledge, Snake Usmash isn't properly observable due to the lower camera. So taking the right option is... Rough.
I'm anxious to see what kinda changes/fixes we get with a more data-intensive approach than smash 4.
The only chars that I see in need for a rework or straight up buff are Mac and Isabelle.
I think the rest is fairly balanced as well and the segmentation into tiers is pretty hard since most of the chars (except Mac and Isabelle) are pretty close together. But if walk-off were legal then even Mac would be balanced but all legal stages don't have these.
DelugeFGC
what about vs. ? I see this MU as fairly even, maybe even with a slight advantage for her. Kinda interested in how an Olimar player sees this MU.
The only chars that I see in need for a rework or straight up buff are Mac and Isabelle.
I think the rest is fairly balanced as well and the segmentation into tiers is pretty hard since most of the chars (except Mac and Isabelle) are pretty close together. But if walk-off were legal then even Mac would be balanced but all legal stages don't have these.
DelugeFGC
what about vs. ? I see this MU as fairly even, maybe even with a slight advantage for her. Kinda interested in how an Olimar player sees this MU.
Zelda is weird and I don't have as much MU experience with her as many other characters because it's not a character I see played often outside of online settings, though I'll comment on what I can.
Olimar has to be mindful of Neutral B like he does of any reflector in a MU where that sort of thing is relevant, but the lag on Zelda's makes it easier to punish when you bait it out of her, if you manage to do so.. or if she whiffs, etc. Din's fire can kill Pikmin effectively well (except for reds, obviously) and so can Phantom if Olimar jumps and the Pikmin lag behind him which can often happen. So it's definitely irritating but pulling Pikmin usually isn't a huge hassle and Olimar gets far more reward out of playing the 'don't commit' game than Zelda does.
Zelda is slow, and honestly that's her biggest bane here because Olimar has pretty great frame data relative to the sort of options he has. She doesn't have the speed or frame data to react to some of Olimar's better options, and if her Up B gets read or 2 framed (which isn't too hard to do honestly) getting back on stage can be hell for her in some situations, as can landing / getting out of disadvantage. Zelda doesn't have the advantage state to really take advantage of how bad Olimar's disadvantage is like other characters can, and ultimately while her neutral tools can make the MU more tricky than normal.. Olimar's options just beat her out where it matters most and she eats it hard when things go south.
That said, she has moves that hit like a truck, recovering against her can be a total PITA as Olimar and her neutral is more difficult to oppress than other characters, so she's not in a terrible spot imo.
It's say it's in the Space Cowboy's favor.. but not by a whole lot. Like 60/40 maybe.
I generally just deal with Snake as Greninja these days. From what I’ve seen pro Greninja players fail to camp Snake effectively and play his usual baiting and poking game, which doesn’t work at all because of grenades. Sitting back and spamming shurikens has been very successful for me, especially since the fully charged variant goes through all his traps. Greninja can effectively mobility camp him as well.
With MVD seeming to run through multiple mid and high level Greninja players one after another, I've tried to make an effort to understand what is happening and why everything is going so wrong when it comes to this MU.
There's a lot of surface level problems such as Greninja Mains trying to constantly land on top of Snake or blowing up from Dash Attacking into his projectiles or not staggering their advantage state pressure or not spacing around grenades that come to mind (lol). But the main thing I keep falling back to is the fact that I don't see any of them actively try to extend their lead once they have it or push Greninja's mobility and projectile camping to its fullest to make Snake have to approach us more often than usual. Playing against a Snake who has lost the lead is a whole different game and forcing him to approach can definitely help Gren snowball through a single opening (Fair -> DA -> Usmash for example or simply just getting him into a rough juggle situation) before resetting back to lame neutral play.
A lot of early sets of Greninja vs Snake had a huge lack of MU knowledge/counterplay (definitely not a character to fight blindly) and general player frustration that made the MU seem much worse than it really is; I've seen many list it as an outright hard counter initially for example. But through more recent sets, I've been starting to see some interesting adaptations. This is probably the best recent example:
Greninja has excellent movement stats in all areas. He jumps high af but falls fast. He runs quickly but keeps his profile low to the ground. This plays a part in how the character can maneuver around the minefield that is Snake's Neutral and escape being cornered in a way that not too many other characters can vs him. What you see in Stroder's gameplay is a lot of Shuriken Charge mixups to force a reaction and crouching under certain Grenade angles from a distance should they commit to it all while he dash dances around to see where he can poke his way in with smart tilts or disjoints while staying just outside Snake's Dash Attack burst range. Stroder is also one of the few Gren players I see even using Dash Walk which aids a lot in the microspacing department and approach mixups; it's quite good for the character.
Greninja has a lot of low end lag moves such as Nair, Dtilt, and Dash Attack as to where if he accidentally grabs a stray grenade, he doesn't really have to worry about them blowing up halfway through those moves animations in particular because of them taking too long. What is interesting though is when a Greninja player uses this to his advantage and the fact that you can use the item-pick range of tilts to grab nades and throw them back for pressure opportunities. If the Snake lays Neutral-B down carelessly, you can toss out a quick low-lag Dtilt to pickup while putting out a hitbox & choose to toss it back or sub counter from there if they try to run and cook another. Shurikens take care of other instances where he has a grenade in hand too.
There's lots and lots of other little things about this MU that comes through in other areas. I've been seeing Greninja Mains chase Snake high recovery and killing him off the top with Hydro Pump, sub-countering overzealous ledge traps to escape or kill, using hydro pump in neutral vs grenades or against Snake trying to land, covering and hitting Snake out of Cypher with Shadow Sneak against really high or low recoveries, using Dair vs Usmash/Nikita to bounce off & escape pressure creatively while preserving double jump and avoiding air-dodging Nikita just to have them loop it back and dying from it, timing the initial Fthrow hit against a Snake holding grenade and safely blowing up the dropped item to tack on 20 percent, etc.
List goes on in regards to concepts Greninja can implement and push to shift things. I can very easily see this MU changing from its initial losing perception in the future amongst a more general consensus but for now it'll be up to the rest of the Greninja Mains to take note of what works and what doesn't so they don't end up repeating the same mistakes of early meta.
Since the topic was brought up, I'll probably write up about how and why Mega Man wins vs Snake but errands & prior obligations await me so that'll have to wait.
- Isabelle is badly designed but is a god online
- I agree that Little Mac should be deleted, lol.
- Ness v Snake is even to slight advantage for Snake. Healing isn't a non-factor in the matchup. While the healing doesn't swing the matchup into Ness' favor, absorbing a Nikita or Grenade even once is huge and can't be discounted when talking about the matchup.
- Ness hasn't really "fallen off." Everything that was true of him a few weeks or months ago is still true today. The minor nerfs in 3.0 didn't hit him that hard. Ness players don't travel, but do exceptionally well in their region. Awestin is still the old master who doesn't leave the mountain, but whoops most people who come to fight him. Not every top player thinks he's fallen off. ESAM still thinks Ness is A tier and I quote "really ****ing stupid." I also think the ceiling for Ness is incredibly high due to his various movement and pressure tech, and we haven't really seen him even explored to the degree we will yet. Ness doesn't do well in nationals because the people who play him the best don't go to nationals, but that's been true for months.
- I think the nerfs to Diddy obviously hurt him a bunch but he's still a totally functional character and not the trash fire people seem to say he is
- Agreed that Megaman is Snake's worst match-up, probably. I don't even know how Snake lands, let alone wins.
The biggest issue I see with Snake is that he can do just about anything the player wants him to do, at the expense of having a "somewhat less than optimal" disadvantage state. He can zone and fight up close, and has godly get off me options. A lot of people complained about Wolf being the same way because he can force approaches with blaster, but the blaster isn't going to kill you unless you burn your jump and get hit with one offstage. Wolf is going to have to interact with you directly to get the kill off. Every option Snake has to force approaches can kill you for the most part, and it's not like he's going to struggle to do so if you get in his face as well. Or if you're on your way to him with his various traps.
With MVD seeming to run through multiple mid and high level Greninja players one after another, I've tried to make an effort to understand what is happening and why everything is going so wrong when it comes to this MU.
There's a lot of surface level problems such as Greninja Mains trying to constantly land on top of Snake or blowing up from Dash Attacking into his projectiles or not staggering their advantage state pressure or not spacing around grenades that come to mind (lol). But the main thing I keep falling back to is the fact that I don't see any of them actively try to extend their lead once they have it or push Greninja's mobility and projectile camping to its fullest to make Snake have to approach us more often than usual. Playing against a Snake who has lost the lead is a whole different game and forcing him to approach can definitely help Gren snowball through a single opening (Fair -> DA -> Usmash for example or simply just getting him into a rough juggle situation) before resetting back to lame neutral play.
A lot of early sets of Greninja vs Snake had a huge lack of MU knowledge/counterplay (definitely not a character to fight blindly) and general player frustration that made the MU seem much worse than it really is; I've seen many list it as an outright hard counter initially for example. But through more recent sets, I've been starting to see some interesting adaptations. This is probably the best recent example:
Greninja has excellent movement stats in all areas. He jumps high af but falls fast. He runs quickly but keeps his profile low to the ground. This plays a part in how the character can maneuver around the minefield that is Snake's Neutral and escape being cornered in a way that not too many other characters can vs him. What you see in Stroder's gameplay is a lot of Shuriken Charge mixups to force a reaction and crouching under certain Grenade angles from a distance should they commit to it all while he dash dances around to see where he can poke his way in with smart tilts or disjoints while staying just outside Snake's Dash Attack burst range. Stroder is also one of the few Gren players I see even using Dash Walk which aids a lot in the microspacing department and approach mixups; it's quite good for the character.
Greninja has a lot of low end lag moves such as Nair, Dtilt, and Dash Attack as to where if he accidentally grabs a stray grenade, he doesn't really have to worry about them blowing up halfway through those moves animations in particular because of them taking too long. What is interesting though is when a Greninja player uses this to his advantage and the fact that you can use the item-pick range of tilts to grab nades and throw them back for pressure opportunities. If the Snake lays Neutral-B down carelessly, you can toss out a quick low-lag Dtilt to pickup while putting out a hitbox & choose to toss it back or sub counter from there if they try to run and cook another. Shurikens take care of other instances where he has a grenade in hand too.
There's lots and lots of other little things about this MU that comes through in other areas. I've been seeing Greninja Mains chase Snake high recovery and killing him off the top with Hydro Pump, sub-countering overzealous ledge traps to escape or kill, using hydro pumping in neutral vs grenades or against Snake trying to land, covering and hitting Snake out of Cypher with Shadow Sneak against really high or low recoveries, using Dair vs Usmash/Nikita to bounce off & escape pressure creatively while avoiding air-dodging Nikita just to have them loop it back while also preserving your double jump, timing the initial Fthrow hit against a Snake holding grenade and safely blowing up the dropped item to tack on 20 percent, etc.
List goes on in regards to concepts Greninja can implement and push to shift things. I can very easily seeing this MU changing from its initial losing perception in the future amongst a more general consensus but for now it'll be up to the rest of the Greninja Mains to take note of what works and what doesn't so they don't end up repeating the same mistakes of early meta.
Since the topic was brought up, I'll probably write up about how and why Mega Man wins vs Snake but errands & prior obligations await me so that'll have to wait.
Outside of particularly niche tools like absorbers, reflectors or upward firing projectiles, Greninja actually has a lot of what you want in potential Snake counter. He has a good projectile with charge mixup potential to harass Snake and sometimes force approaches. He has excellent mobility, a strong advantage state with plenty of true combos, good edgeguarding and a good recovery, with enough mixup potential to get around Nikita much of the time. Even in the way of unique tools, Greninja has an AOE counter that works on projectiles and can kill, and and upward angled windbox projectile which can nab gimmicky kills off the top.
Greninja’s biggest flaws in the MU are that many of his attacks set off grenades most of the time (with dash attack being the worst offender), his light weight and his iffy CQC. At least his bad OOS isn’t as crippling against a character like Snake who tends to pressure shields from afar rather than rushing in up close. Snake can spam dash attack a little too freely for my liking against Greninja’s shield, but Greninja can grab it if Snake doesn’t cross up and at least drop shield turnaround jab, if not Dtilt, if Snake does cross up.
Greninja definitely can’t play his normal game against Snake, he is forced to change his usual playstyle, but how many characters can really say Snake doesn’t make them adapt or outright abandon their regular gameplan? G&W? Gunner? Maybe the Earthbound kids? Having to play differently against Snake is the norm rather than the exception. On balance I think Greninja has the tools to have a lot of success in this MU if he plays it right.
I think Shaya touched on this earlier, but a lot of the systems (Increased input lag to 6!!!! frames, overall safety of moves on shield + low lag) make it so waiting and punishing bad options is much much less of a thing than in other games. Ultimate really says you need to make your own destiny.
It's annoying to me after spending years perfecting twitch responses in Smash 4 but this is the game as is now. I would still like input lag tuned back to 3 frames of so though haha
I think Shaya touched on this earlier, but a lot of the systems (Increased input lag to 6!!!! frames, overall safety of moves on shield + low lag) make it so waiting and punishing bad options is much much less of a thing than in other games. Ultimate really says you need to make your own destiny.
It's annoying to me after spending years perfecting twitch responses in Smash 4 but this is the game as is now. I would still like input lag tuned back to 3 frames of so though haha
It's not like Lucina is perfect. Besides, I'm more of a buff rather than nerf guy unless something is just outright broken. Seeing as Ultimate lacks a broken fighter (yet, DLC isn't done), I'd rather they buffed. Mostly the worse characters. I'd be fine if they left high and above alone.
Besides, there are much more egregious top tiers, so why nerf the fundamentals one that is probably one the weaker end of top tier?
I actually think the fact that Lucina has such strong fundamentals is one of the most powerful things about her. It was mentioned earlier that most of Lucina's matchups are just +1s, but they're generally very easy +1s. In some matchups, your character may have the advantage but you have to play the matchup a specific way to take advantage of it, which can sometimes be mentally taxing even when you're on the winning side. When I'm on the losing end of one of these matchups, the way I approach it is usually to try to throw the opponent off their gameplan by going for harder reads and riskier plays and generally trying to knock the opponent out of their comfort zone so they can't play the matchup the way they want. However, with Lucina's +1s, the gameplan usually seems to be "just play the game the way you usually would and you'll come out on top", in which case there's not a whole lot you can do to try to throw her off the gameplan because she just has to stick to the fundamentals that she's practiced a million times. Instead it's the other character that has to scramble and be like "how do I play around this" and that probably makes them play worse.
Of course, that being said, if I had control over the balance patches I'd take a bit away from all the top tiers.
I actually think the fact that Lucina has such strong fundamentals is one of the most powerful things about her. It was mentioned earlier that most of Lucina's matchups are just +1s, but they're generally very easy +1s. In some matchups, your character may have the advantage but you have to play the matchup a specific way to take advantage of it, which can sometimes be mentally taxing even when you're on the winning side. When I'm on the losing end of one of these matchups, the way I approach it is usually to try to throw the opponent off their gameplan by going for harder reads and riskier plays and generally trying to knock the opponent out of their comfort zone so they can't play the matchup the way they want. However, with Lucina's +1s, the gameplan usually seems to be "just play the game the way you usually would and you'll come out on top", in which case there's not a whole lot you can do to try to throw her off the gameplan because she just has to stick to the fundamentals that she's practiced a million times. Instead it's the other character that has to scramble and be like "how do I play around this" and that probably makes them play worse.
Of course, that being said, if I had control over the balance patches I'd take a bit away from all the top tiers.
Well, at least she isn't super gmmicky. How can you fault a fighter for good fundamentals? She doesn't really have much in way of feeling overpowered like Nikita or the Pikimin up smash.
I have to say, there are more players with secondaries (and more secondaries in general, really) than I expected, particularly in the top 25 seeding. I wonder if there's any correlation or causation between them. (Are they good because they have secondaries? Do they have secondaries because they're good enough to use multiple characters effectively?)
I have to say, there are more players with secondaries (and more secondaries in general, really) than I expected, particularly in the top 25 seeding. I wonder if there's any correlation or causation between them. (Are they good because they have secondaries? Do they have secondaries because they're good enough to use multiple characters effectively?)
I have and always will maintain that secondaries are excellent to have in a game with this many match-ups. Even if you have one character that you've really mastered, it can really ruin your tournament when you hit that one match-up you're super uncomfortable with. I think the cast diversity is so large that it's at the very least better for your morale to not bang your head against the wall with your solo main when you could keep a "Plan B" ready instead.
Having a secondary is probably for the best, the roster is very large, which is not the best thing for MU spread even though most of the cast is decently balanced. Also, having a backup can be useful if the main gets nerfed. Some of the picks are in a shaky spot, like VoiD's. Pichu is a great character, but is very polarizing and if it gets nerfed, it means even more effort to get results with it. Then he's left with Sheik, which pales compared to Pichu, and many others, unless Sheik gets more meaningful buffs in the future. Not to mention the potential rise of other characters below high tier with dedicated players, and updates buffing them. (I hope next patches will focus more on balance patches, but I'm afraid they'll go with small steps until they're done with bringing new major content). So that means even more headache with MU spread. Having two top tiers as main and secondary is currently fine, but the big thing is: now that Sakurai is not influental for the balance changes (as far as I know), and the balancing team adjusting the game according to Elite Smash as well, even bad characters could get nerfed. It's going to be a guessing game.
TL;DR
A big roster means a big MU spread so having a secondary to cover main's weaknesses is good. Also the updates might nerf the mains while secondaries stay safe (or vice versa).
Speaking of secondaries, I was practicing with my in weeklies. Using him first and switching to if I lost. Comparing the two, Link has some advantages like his huge disjointed reach, normal grab and remote bombs offstage. Link's heavier and kills earlier with huge but slow sword swipes. I'm better with YL and therefor biased but IMO YL is the best Link. Link has slow frame data and it shows. If you're in a MU like vs Olimar where you can't space with Fair Link gets shut down where YL doesn't.
Link has a great Utilt and Usmash in advantage but YL's advantage is overall better because he's more mobile and his projectiles launch up to juggle. If YL gets the opponent above him he can throw a bomb up to bait airdodges then jump and Uair. Because Link's big sword's platform pressure he's definitely better on BF.
YL's combo game is much better than Links so YL can get higher damage strings off Fair1, Nair and Dtilt that don't work as well for Link. YL's bombs and boomerang true combo and fire arrows pop up the opponent. Link's boomerang combos into Fair at low %s but that's it. YL's Dthrow combos into Nair than Uair for a long time while Link's Dthrow combos into Utilt at low %s.
Link's offstage intercepting is where he shines. All YL's projectiles pop up and aren't good for gimping. Link's remote bombs are the 2nd best offstage projectile (after Nikita, thanks for outclassing Link here too Snake) and his arrows can be charged to snipe far away recovering opponents. YL's gimping game still isn't bad because Nair creates a long lasting wall of hitbubbles and YL can FF it deeper than most characters.
Disadvantage is where YL really pulls ahead of Link. YL's recovery not counting bombs is longer, he can shoot a few fire arrows, boomerang and tether the ledge as a mix up. Link has bomb recoveries, which are great for a long distance but high % and spacing specific. Link's normal recoveries can be covered with a boomerang and have big hitbubbles to the side but mediocre distance and are vulnerable from the top (think DK's spinning kong).
Link gets juggled and has a hard time returning down to the stage, sometimes relying on Dair as a long lasting hitbox to cover him. His FF speed has a 90% boost so his disadvantage isn't terrible. YL can rain bombs (plural) down on opponents and has better airspeed. I did this vs Palutena, who has a great advantage, and it really helps. YL's bombs are incredible at covering him in disadvantage; he can z drop/throw one down while falling to the side and opponents can't chase him without risking eatting a bomb>Dair. YL's Nair is F4 vs Link's F7 which means he out buttons most of the cast in the air and it's extremely helpful when being pressured by someone like Pichu. YL's hurtbox shifts when using Dair by moving his legs to the side, unlike Link so the disjoint isn't that much worse than Link's Dair. Where YL struggles is vs big disjoints like Ike who can swat him away before Nair has a chance to hit.
I plan on using Link for some of YL's bad MUs like Ike, Ness and Wario. YL does better on MUs can shut Link down or YL zones hard like super heavies, Olimar, and Pichu. TBH Link isn't the best secondary for YL because according to MU charts I've seen they're often in the same catagory. But mixing up your game is always a smart option, look at Tweek using Roy vs Marrs.
Speaking of Link, I still think is the worst Link but and are pretty close to each other in terms of viability.
is the best because of he's basically a jack of all trades, similarly to /. He's not really lacking in one particular area (even if he is weaker in some areas like killing) and I can't really come up with any matchups that are worse than -1 except one (that I'm not really confident in saying). Speaking of matchups, his matchup spread (to me) seems to be pretty good overall.
is the second best, just barely pulling ahead of Link. To me, Toon Link still fits the jack of all trades archetype, but kind of in a way more similar to or where he can make a lot of situations work out, but his strengths don't stand out as much and his weaknesses may be a bit more glaring than some of the better all-rounders that have been in Smash (like or ). Young Toon Link kind of falls into the middle of the Links in most areas (with the exception of movement speed) so putting him in the middle of the three makes sense. His frame data isn't as good as Young Link, his kill power isn't as good as Link, his projectiles aren't as versatile as Young Link, his range isn't as good as Link, his matchups are more polarizing that Young Link, you get the picture.
is the worst Link but by no means is he a bad character. I'd personally still put him in the lower end of high tier, and before people tell me I'm underrating him, I'd like to point out that Link still has most of the strengths but also the same weaknesses that he's had in other Smash games, just to a lesser extent. His recovery also got quite a bit worse from Smash 4 with the removal of his tether (and depending on how you look at it his old bombs as well). However, despite Link getting a mix of buffs and nerfs from Smash 4 to Ultimate, the large number of Quality of Life changes help him quite a bit and the nerfs to a lot of his worse matchups in Smash 4 also help him.
First off, let's start with the old adage about secondaries. It's long been though that secondaries are bad because that's time you're not putting into practicing with your main, and that offsets the gain you'd get from matchup advantage with the secondary. However, IMO, this applies to Smash less than most other fighters because Smash is less about complex combos and setups and more about matchup experience. In theory, the time to grind out 70+ matchups is not that different if you're using one character for them or 3, so having a secondary would appear to be purely advantageous in Smash.
Of course, the downside here is that you may sometimes not get to play a matchup with the character you want. You could get counterpicked, or get a blind pick and guess wrong. If you don't know the matchup with the other character and take an L because of it, that could be pretty bad, especially in a 3 game set. Does that mean it's better to just stick to one character? Well, it probably depends on you as a player and how well you can improvise, but in order for another player to do this to you, they have to have a secondary too. Maybe if you know there's a good player you often play against who can do this to you, you might want to practice the matchup with both characters.
Plus, in my opinion, having a secondary is just more fun. I don't want to grind out matches as the same character all the time. A lot of top players will say that making sure you always have fun with the game is very important to do well.
There are lots of factors that come into play when it comes to whether having a secondary is good or bad for you. For instance, if you're playing a character with a unique playstyle, then having a secondary might mess you up (so if you're a Mega Man or Duck Hunt main it might be better to just stick with your main). On the other hand, if you play a fundamentally based character it might be easier to switch between multiple characters. This is probably one of the reasons why MkLeo can play so many characters easily. Another factor is how hard the secondary is to use: Picking up Lucina or Wolf as a secondary is likely to take less time than Pikachu or Snake.
If you main a top tier, you never really need a secondary. If you're playing a low tier, chances are a secondary will help you with some of the bad matchups (but so would, y'know, not playing a low tier, so if you want to maximize your chances of winning in the long run you might want to consider picking a better character*).
Of course, Terotrous mentioned, having a secondary is more fun for a lot of players, since focusing too much on one character can get old for many players, so that's also a factor. In general, I would say that you wouldn't need a secondary to do well (if you're maining a top or a high tier, at least), so don't feel pressured into picking one. Picking one can be useful, but it can also be detrimental, so keep that in mind. Also, I think it's important to focus on a maximum of two characters; trying to play three, four, or five in tournaments is likely to slow down your progress.
*Though in the short run MU inexperience vs low tiers could win you some sets, but in the long run low tiers are likely to hold you back.
Yesterday, I think I faced the highest player in Elite smash, a Toon Link at 7.54 mil that went by the name of WindWaker. Having it formerly been a Young Link, I feel the T. Link was even more oppressive due to those easy kill confirms, ledge trapping, and that dash attack to catch landings. I used to think BOTW link was better until I met this TL. The main difference being speed, hurtbox size and how potent Tink’s kill confirms are. As for the Snake CP discussion, I believe one of the best is Samus. Samus has the weight to trade with Snake, that tether grab actually comes in use quite a bit against a character that enjoys shield like Snake does, her missiles and neutral Special let her stay comfortable at a distance and finally juggling Snake. Samus’ Up Special and Uair are great at giving a hard time for Snake to land. The best CP is mega man as far as I know. As for how I understand my main stacks up against Snake, I feel it’s surprisingly even. Usually DP’s arrows are fairly react able and the opponent simply shields them. But due to the end lag involved with throwing grenades, the DP player gets a free 6% every time the Snake tries to zone them. This is in addition to a few other factors beneficial to both Pits, such as gaurdian Orbitars neutralizing Nikita, their great edgegaurding coming in a lot of use in this MU, and Snake’s struggle to land providing more opportunities to shoot arrows. If This MU is especially nice for DP, since if Snake is outside dash Attack range, he loses the percent exchange. While not a counterpick by any means, it’s nice for your main to have ‘fair playing ground’ against one of the most polarizing top tiers in the game. The main reason this MU works well is due to Snake’s weaknesses, (Landing, Recovery) aligning with Pit’s strengths (Juggling, Edgegaurding). Pit’s main weakness, few safe kill options, is patched up well through easy edgegaurds on Snake. Gaurdian Orbitars and arrows bring it all together.
The results of all 3 Links do make it hard for me to decide which one is the best Link as of currently. has amassed the most of the results, but out of the 3, his overall placement are slightly less impressive than that of or .
All 3 have a good set of mains backing them up; Young Link has a strong main in the form of cookieslayer, and is used as a secondary by both T and Tweek. Meanwhile, Link has really good rep in T backing him up, while he's also got Izaw backing him up as well. And lastly, Toon Link has Sigma and Ri-ima, both of which are very talented Japanese players.
To me, which one's the best can be a toss-up between the three.
This is a MU I played at the weekly. YL has several relatively good MUs vs top tiers (+1, Even IMO).
In the vs MU:
I've had the Pichu player say to me that YL walls Pichu better than everyone except Olimar. Pichu's jolts get out spammed by YL and YL's F4 Nair and Dair create long lasting hitboxes that can stop his advances. YL actually wins neutral vs Pichu although Pichu is one of the better characters at breaking through YL's zoning.
Pichu's advantage is top tier. He does Pichu things and what that means is he vortexes you extremely hard with low endlag attacks. Pichu is also very good at killing with things like Ftilt which has almost no commitment, grab>thunder, Bair and smashes. Pichu kills early which is good because he dies earlier than anyone else bar none. This is the reason why the lightest character who self damages is top tier; his advantage is so oppressive.
YL's advantage isn't bad but it pales in comparison to Pichu's. Fortunately YL gets a lot of chip damage from zoning and can transition into combos off part of it.
Pichu's disadvantage is one of the better ones because he's so small and can guide upB in 2 directions. YL gets juggled but once he escapes YL can rain bombs down or FF Nair which has merely 6f landing lag. Both characters are fairly good at creating guessing games after true combos end and both characters can turn disadvantage into advantage.
Pichu's amazing at killing but he's so light a lot of YL's weaker safe aerials like U/F/Dair can kill him around 100+%, depending on stage positioning. YL kills later than Pichu but Pichu's always at risk from YL's long lasting hitboxes. YL can make a read and smash for earlier kills but if he wiffs he's in a world of pain.
Overall I'd say the MU is even. If YL wasn't undertuned he'd win but Pichu's amazingly good once he gets going. Pichu's reward is easily enough to balance the scales.
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