Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Idon]

If it counts, I have found out that all of Marth's tipper hitboxes are unchanged from Smash 4 with the exception of fair, bair, nair, jab, and Dancing Blade.

Besides forward tilt, Chrom doesn't really have many advantages over Roy. The difference in feel comes from the hitlag modifiers. Roy's sourspots have additional hitlag so they feel heavier.

He has the no sourspot thing but the sword itself is so small and his movement unaccommodating for it, that you would rather pick Marth to do the job. Yes, I still think that Marth is the best out of the four.

As soon as I see a pro player counterpick to Marth, I'll start believing there's a point to his existence competitively.

Theory is all well and good, but useless without any application.

 

[Daisycakes]

As soon as I see a pro player counterpick to Marth, I'll start believing there's a point to his existence competitively.

Theory is all well and good, but useless without any application.

It's mainly personal preference. Same reason why Samsora still picks Peach over Daisy or people pick Richter over Simon. We have seen Lucinas lose games because they couldn't find a good kill move if they didn't edgeguard or do a random forward smash. Marth can play the exact same game she does, but he can end people more consistently with spaced tilts and playing at a safe distance. The difference between Marth's tippers and Lucina's hits become greater the later the percent due to stuff like knockback growth and rage. He lost Jab 1 to forward smash, but that's really it.

Roy and Chrom are likely popular now because they feel fast, hit hard, are simple to pick up and play and have flashy looking combos. Many people aren't even aware that Chrom has a shorter sword than Marth.

 

[Lavani]

Chrom vs Roy really is the new Marth vs Lucina

With how much conversation the two stir up, I'd like to ask the people who view one as definitively better than the other how far apart they see them. Gun to my head I'd pick Chrom, but as things currently stand I see them as more of a "pick your poison" case than an "X is better than Y definitively" sort of thing, and view both around the lower end of top 10.

 

[Daisycakes]

Chrom vs Roy really is the new Marth vs Lucina

With how much conversation the two stir up, I'd like to ask the people who view one as definitively better than the other how far apart they see them. Gun to my head I'd pick Chrom, but as things currently stand I see them as more of a "pick your poison" case than an "X is better than Y definitively" sort of thing, and view both around the lower end of top 10.

They are echo fighters. Echo Fighters are literally defined by being nearly the same in gameplay. Sooner or later people will realise that all echo fighter pairs are pretty much identical in viability with one being a bit objectively better. It's not like Melee or Brawl or Dr.Mario in 4 where the gameplay differences were actually significant.

And I think Roy and Chrom are good counterpick characters but they seem mid tier to me. They are just too linear.

 

[Impax]

If WFT was actually good she wouldn't be overlooked. You could make the same popularity comparison about Bayonetta but she was amazingly good and ended up the best character in SSB4. Popularity has some influence in the short term but the cream rises to the top. People are going to play and get results with characters who can win regardless of their games.

Chrom was a top tier with kamikaze jank then he got nerfed. Belmont got counterplay to exploit their recovery weakness. But they're both still high tiers (although Belmont's arguable) getting 7th and 13th respectively solo at GOML. It's not like they dropped out of the meta.

Not that it really matters but players like pandarian, dabuz and wadi all think shes good. But not top tier good. I think duck hunt has similar issues.

 

[Lancerech]

His recovery is several spaces above Chrom despite still potentially being in the lower half, but at the same time, people might be overemphasizing it. Soaring Slash may not be universally better as an attack, but it does have advantages that need to be addressed like sheer damage output. Overall, despite Roy's recovery better, my argument is that it isn't enough to outright make him better. Especially not when Chrom has advantages of his own that counteract them.

I'm mostly just seeing a bit too much of the opposite, where Roy's recovery and ridiculous KO power of certain moves and his ability to set up into it are undervalued. That said, I find it difficult to say who's better currently. Roy has to take more risks and requires more knowledge in order to succeed, but the reward he gets off of it is absurd. It makes me wonder how far his advantage state can be pushed.

 

[DelugeFGC]

It's mainly personal preference. Same reason why Samsora still picks Peach over Daisy or people pick Richter over Simon. We have seen Lucinas lose games because they couldn't find a good kill move if they didn't edgeguard or do a random forward smash. Marth can play the exact same game she does, but he can end people more consistently with spaced tilts and playing at a safe distance. The difference between Marth's tippers and Lucina's hits become greater the later the percent due to stuff like knockback growth and rage. He lost Jab 1 to forward smash, but that's really it.

Roy and Chrom are likely popular now because they feel fast, hit hard, are simple to pick up and play and have flashy looking combos. Many people aren't even aware that Chrom has a shorter sword than Marth.

That's not how that works, at all.

In theory literally means nothing when the character is working with a modified kit and different hitboxes. The tipper values also changed on like half his moves and most of the important ones.. also the game speed is really what screwed Marth more than anything else.

If he had Melee tipper consistency it would be one thing, but these Sm4sh-esque tippers with the faster gamespeed have pretty much condemned him. Roy is just an outright better character because he's more consistent, there is literally no way to deny that. It's lunacy to try to. Same can be said for Lucina and Chrom.

Marth is not going to magically start getting more consistent with his tippers when people have been trying to get them consistently spaced on the character for half of a damned year now. I think we're far enough into the game, early meta or not, to acknowledge that without some kind of tweak / buff Marth is kind of.. at his worst here.

Also to all of you who keep bringing up 'how early Marth can kill', have you seen what proper DI does to his kill power..? Landing tippers in a fake game on training mode, on a husk CPU with no DI at the ledge is meaningless.

 

[Rizen]

It's mainly personal preference. Same reason why Samsora still picks Peach over Daisy or people pick Richter over Simon. We have seen Lucinas lose games because they couldn't find a good kill move if they didn't edgeguard or do a random forward smash. Marth can play the exact same game she does, but he can end people more consistently with spaced tilts and playing at a safe distance. The difference between Marth's tippers and Lucina's hits become greater the later the percent due to stuff like knockback growth and rage. He lost Jab 1 to forward smash, but that's really it.

Roy and Chrom are likely popular now because they feel fast, hit hard, are simple to pick up and play and have flashy looking combos. Many people aren't even aware that Chrom has a shorter sword than Marth.

Even Mr.E's switched over to Lucy and he was the last bastion of Marthiness.

 

[Daisycakes]

That's not how that works, at all.

In theory literally means nothing when the character is working with a modified kit and different hitboxes. The tipper values also changed on like half his moves and most of the important ones.. also the game speed is really what screwed Marth more than anything else.

If he had Melee tipper consistency it would be one thing, but these Sm4sh-esque tippers with the faster gamespeed have pretty much condemned him. Roy is just an outright better character because he's more consistent, there is literally no way to deny that. It's lunacy to try to. Same can be said for Lucina and Chrom.

Marth is not going to magically start getting more consistent with his tippers when people have been trying to get them consistently spaced on the character for half of a damned year now. I think we're far enough into the game, early meta or not, to acknowledge that without some kind of tweak / buff Marth is kind of.. at his worst here.

Also to all of you who keep bringing up 'how early Marth can kill', have you seen what proper DI does to his kill power..? Landing tippers in a fake game on training mode, on a husk CPU with no DI at the ledge is meaningless.

Marth's neutral air was buffed, foward air is almost a guaranteed tipper if you hit above the opponent, forward tilt (one of his best and safest kill moves) was completely untouched. Even forward smash has the exact same hitbox as post patch Smash 4. The programming of the game doesn't lie.


You can use that tipper argument on Marth, but you can also apply it to Lucina. Her moves with good DI would "ruin" her KO power no matter how good - her actual KO power on her aerials aren't that great. I have seen good players survive until 170% consistently because Lucina failed to get an edge-guard or stray forward smash.

Also Marth and Lucina have literally identical hitboxes. Note that Marth's tipper hitbox is in the safest, most wide arcing area of his sword, and the sourspots are closer to his blindspots? As a sword user, Marth and co. lack the luxury of being able to assault you with a lingering hitbox without being punished for it - there are other factors that make the tipper worth going for than just damage output.

As for Leo, he attempted to pick up Marth again, spammed Dancing Blade, realised that it didn't work (obviously) and switched back to Lucina.

 

[DelugeFGC]

The human element to Marth (i.e. nobody no matter how good is spacing 100% of their attacks 100% perfectly 100% of the time) combined with what I said earlier just doesn't leave room to argue half a year into the game.

If he had all this potential, we'd have started to see it before. It's not like he's just not been used at all.. he just does NOT have the results to back up all this theorycrafting and unlike many other characters.. the results ARE there to prove it.

Marth is doomed by his inconsistency. He's still not a bad character by any means, I think people should remember that still.. but he's not top tier and there's no way he's better than characters like Lucina or Roy.

 

[Daisycakes]

The human element to Marth (i.e. nobody no matter how good is spacing 100% of their attacks 100% perfectly 100% of the time) combined with what I said earlier just doesn't leave room to argue half a year into the game.

If he had all this potential, we'd have started to see it before. It's not like he's just not been used at all.. he just does NOT have the results to back up all this theorycrafting and unlike many other characters.. the results ARE there to prove it.

Well, If you look at Lucina's results, I will say that Marth's doing pretty good for himself - she's his echo fighter after all.

I am not saying that Marth has a ton of potential, I am just saying that he's probably better than Chrom or Roy, and on par or better than Lucina is. Personally I think sword users are really overrated and I understand why the meta is shifting away from them.

Marth doesn't really NEED the sweetspots until he's at kill percent, and when he's at kill percent, he can just play the fencing game and poke you with a f tilt or nair or u tilt or uair or fair to finish you off - not even risky moves. He even has Dolphin Slash for close range, and Dancing Blade for midrange and a spaced f smash (safe on shield) at far ranges. He doesn't need to hit the tippers even 50% of the time to deal equal damage to Lucina thanks to the reduced KB on his sourspotted attacks. All sword characters want to space and use the full length of their sword.

 

[DelugeFGC]

Alright, there's talking in theory.. and there's just talking plain falsely.

You cannot base Marth's viability off of the fact his Echo is better and you cannot realistically say he's better than two OTHER characters who are more consistent than him and get better results than him.

Marth doesn't NEED his tipper? I'm not even going to comment there, no matter what exactly was you meant.. that is straight lunacy.

Also you know blade consistency matters outside of % output.. right? Like.. for edgeguarding being viable / consistent? When Marth's main means to kill people is the furthest thing from consistent, you just simply cannot realistically pretend that it doesn't hurt him quite a bit.

 

[Terotrous]

Remember when Olimar was a character everyone was super hyped for and had millions of fans salivating over how he'd change going into SSBU?

Because I don't.

Olimar was actually the Brawl newcomer I had the most hype for, and I liked playing him too, but you can't play Olimar and not feel like a scumbag. No offense Olimar mains, but it's true.

I like to think of him as a bonus if you play random select, every now and then you just get free wins.

 

[DelugeFGC]

That was just rude and uncalled for. I've been booed and such for picking him, but I never felt like a scumbag for playing a character.. I just got tired of the hate.

Lord god..

 

[DunnoBro]

Roy is likely going to have greater consistency against top tiers due to his recovery, and his ledge trapping being more potent/consistent.

But Chrom's juggling, and honestly edgeguarding being superior will keep him a major gatekeeper for the mid-tiers.

(His ledge trapping is also superior for damage racking, but worse for killing without DED or Base Hits)

Chrom can do run-off counter, and aerials with far more versatile, varied timings due to the sheer vertical reach of his upb. The fact his knockback is consistent throughout the blade gives him even more effective range off-stage for edgeguards. And Roy's upb was even recoded recently to not stage spike properly. So he can't do the "Attempt Edgeguard > Maybe get a kill while just trying to recover" Like Chrom can. All this leads to a far more oppressive character to those without stellar options.

Pretty much a similar vein to Marth vs Lucina.

One better at edgeguarding, one better at ledgeguarding. Except the difference is far more palpable.

 

[Terotrous]

That was just rude and uncalled for. I've been booed and such for picking him, but I never felt like a scumbag for playing a character.. I just got tired of the hate.

I don't have anything against you or anyone who plays the character personally, though I feel that the hate towards the character is so universal that it clearly indicates that there's something about the way the character is designed that people strongly dislike. Probably the fact that the character is fairly straightforward and gets massive reward for little risk.

I've felt for a long time that the answer is to make Olimar a bit more complex, likely by making Pikmin Pluck take longer, and thus getting caught without Pikmin becomes much more dangerous. I also think the change from his old Pikmin chain special to Flying Pikmin was a mistake, not only did it remove a flashy kill option but it also made his recovery much simpler to use. If getting Pikmin was hard and you needed them to recover he'd change from a campy, overly safe character to a more glass cannony type of character and I think people would welcome that much more.

 

[Arthur97]

I'm mostly just seeing a bit too much of the opposite, where Roy's recovery and ridiculous KO power of certain moves and his ability to set up into it are undervalued. That said, I find it difficult to say who's better currently. Roy has to take more risks and requires more knowledge in order to succeed, but the reward he gets off of it is absurd. It makes me wonder how far his advantage state can be pushed.

If anything I think his recovery is over appreciated. Like I said earlier, people seem to forget how lackluster it is just because it's better than Chrom's. That's hardly saying much.

 

[DunnoBro]

My only issue with Olimar, is largely that his foxtrot/dashdance-based neutral to bait approaches for grabs/smashes makes it awkward to keep track of his pikmin due to all the shuffling. ESPECIALLY if you're another projectile/based character who needs to keep track of their own resources. Not to mention the visual effects from the pikmin themselves when they clank with shields/projectiles/opponents/etc.

If you could just look at the light on his head, with the light being the same color as the Pikmin he has, it'd be a lot less draining to fight him in my opinion.

"Oh, it's purple? Don't land on his shield"
"Oh, it's red? Don't get smacked by an aerial or fsmash"
"Oh, it's blue? Don't sit in shield"

To be honest, if they can't make it easier to keep track of his Pikmin; He really shouldn't be a top tier. But objectively looking at gamestates, there's really nothing absurd. It's just the ambiguity involved with fighting him.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

My only issue with Olimar, is largely that his foxtrot/dashdance-based neutral to bait approaches for grabs/smashes makes it awkward to keep track of his pikmin due to all the shuffling. ESPECIALLY if you're another projectile/based character who needs to keep track of their own resources. Not to mention the visual effects from the pikmin themselves when they clank with shields/projectiles/opponents/etc.

If you could just look at the light on his head, with the light being the same color as the Pikmin he has, it'd be a lot less draining to fight him in my opinion.

"Oh, it's purple? Don't land on his shield"
"Oh, it's red? Don't get smacked by an aerial or fsmash"
"Oh, it's blue? Don't sit in shield"

To be honest, if they can't make it easier to keep track of his Pikmin; He really shouldn't be a top tier. But objectively looking at gamestates, there's really nothing absurd. It's just the ambiguity involved with fighting him.

That's why we need something like this:

 

[Lancerech]

If anything I think his recovery is over appreciated. Like I said earlier, people seem to forget how lackluster it is just because it's better than Chrom's. That's hardly saying much.

The people that place him an entire tier above Chrom only for recovery are taking it too far without at least considering other factors. But there's also too much of a backlash against these tier lists and claim the recovery barely makes a difference when it's just matchup dependent. If anything, I want to see the matchups where it'd make a big difference and the ones where it'd barely change a thing.

 

[Terotrous]

That's why we need something like this:

I feel like this is somewhat less useful than the display on Olimar himself because you have to look away from the action to check the status display, which could be a particular issue if it updates extremely frequently (say, if tossing pikmin or plucking new pikmin). You'll notice that for most characters who have a status display, there's also a visual effect on the character as well, for example Cloud has a limit meter, but he also glows when he has limit.

That being said, I feel like broadly speaking, it doesn't really matter that much. Even if Olimar hits you with the "wrong" pikmin, it's never bad, it's just not as good as it could be. Another possible fix to the character could be to make the strengths and weaknesses of the pikmin more pronounced, for example maybe smash attacks from yellow pikmin do almost nothing and grabs from reds are almost totally useless, but I feel like this would not be very fun. There's a lot of nuance that goes on in terms of not just making a character have the right level of strength, but also feel fair to play against and fun to play too.

 

[Djmarcus44]

According to the SSBWorld Character usage for tournaments in Ultimate...





All of these characters have less people people playing them then but all hold 10-20 spots higher.

Now Joker is a new character so he's the oddball but lack of popularity hasn't stopped these characters from getting results.

Being popular has not suddenly made win majors constantly.

is played only a bit more than and while I question the notion of him being "Top Tier" He is currently ranked #30 on OrionStat and has been improving and for me personally, Shulk being on the cusps end of High Tier is perfectly acceptable. Lack of popularity didn't stop him.

I find it funny that many of these unpopular characters still rank 10-20 spots higher than .

Popularity is nothing more than an excuse IMO. A good character will get good results regardless of their popularity and bad characters will remain stagnant and fall no matter how many people use them.

I checked the SSBWorld page for Mii Gunner, and I found some huge mistakes in their results.

1. Kantrip is listed as a notable Gunner player when he doesn't even play Mii Gunner. His set against Armando was Swordfighter vs. Snake every game, but they listed it as Mii Gunner.

2. They use footage from smaller tournaments, but they miss out on videos from some 100+ player tournaments with good Gunner players that place well at these tournaments. This video of Xyless getting 13th at Ignition 178 is just one example. https://youtu.be/m7l5cHKIVv4

3. They don't even have all of the footage from the tournaments they used. They have a video of Gluttony beating Nesk in the Pre-Genesis tournament, but they don't have a YouTube video of Nesk beating Mudumo in the same tournament. https://youtu.be/aNrt8PktJQQ

While I am not fully disagreeing with your point, my examples clearly show how a character with low popularity can be misrepresented. I don't expect them to find results for every single tournament (even I don't feel like looking through a 3 hour tournament stream to find my own games on stream), but I was able to find a lot of games from more notable Gunner players by only using YouTube. I am not trying to disrespect the work put in by SSBWorld, but I am not sure how they came up with their videos for Mii Gunner.

 

[Terotrous]

A random question about Miis: Are any major tournaments / regions still limiting them to 1111? I don't think I've seen one in quite a while.

I'm seeing a lot of people rating the Miis extremely low and for Swordfighter in particular it really doesn't seem justified.

 

[Djmarcus44]

A random question about Miis: Are any major tournaments / regions still limiting them to 1111? I don't think I've seen one in quite a while.

I'm seeing a lot of people rating the Miis extremely low and for Swordfighter in particular it really doesn't seem justified.

No. Miis are allowed every move at major tournaments and events.

 

[DelugeFGC]

That's why we need something like this:

I'm not against this, but I'm not 100% sure that it would make that much of a difference in the Olimar MU.

Having to worry about dealing with him WHILE keeping track of his Pikmin order at the bottom of the screen isn't as easy as it sounds in theory when putting it into practice. For example, Down B is frame 2 (EDIT: F17, armor is F2) and can be spammed endlessly, and Olimar's Pikmin order is always subject to rapid change because of this, using moves, tossing Pikmin, intentionally destroying them to pull more, etc.

Not to mention Olimar can have more than one Pikmin color. Like I see no real way that a Blue, Purple, Purple Pikmin order Olimar could be made any easier to deal with by having an indicator at the bottom of the screen.. you know that if he grabs you that you're probably dead the second he cycles a blue into his order at higher %.

 

[Arthur97]

The people that place him an entire tier above Chrom only for recovery are taking it too far without at least considering other factors. But there's also too much of a backlash against these tier lists and claim the recovery barely makes a difference when it's just matchup dependent. If anything, I want to see the matchups where it'd make a big difference and the ones where it'd barely change a thing.

The real issue probably isn't even recovery, but rather edgeguarding which despite what some may say, Chrom has his advantages as well as his obvious disadvantages. Like he can go lower and doesn't have to get as close to actually do something of note. Plus, he can always try and take them with him.

Meanwhile Roy can go further and be safer while hitting harder if you get close enough. Just don't go low.

Now, I won't sit here and tell you Chrom is better, but I do think he should be considered definitely.

Also, let's just admire the irony that some of their differences may seem more blatantly obvious than Marth and Lucina, but it's actually harder to determine which, if either, is better.

 

[DunnoBro]

I'm not against this, but I'm not 100% sure that it would make that much of a difference in the Olimar MU.

Having to worry about dealing with him WHILE keeping track of his Pikmin order at the bottom of the screen isn't as easy as it sounds in theory when putting it into practice. For example, Down B is frame 2 and can be spammed endlessly, and Olimar's Pikmin order is always subject to rabid change because of this, using moves, tossing Pikmin, intentionally destroying them to pull more, etc.

Not to mention Olimar can have more than one Pikmin color. Like I see no real way that a Blue, Purple, Purple Pikmin order Olimar could be made any easier to deal with by having an indicator at the bottom of the screen.. you know that if he grabs you that you're probably dead the second he cycles a blue into his order at higher %.

Whistle is 17 frames, actually. The armor is frame 2, but 17 is actually more than double pikmin pluck time. Which as we know often sacrifices valuable stage control, and positioning while trying to use in neutral/advantage/disadvantage.

17 frames is also around the baseline for reaction time in smash (or 13 avg reaction + 5 frames buffer) And with the audio cue, it'd be easy enough to glance over to his new lineup.

So while not perfect, it'd probably be a tenable enough solution. Far easier than discerning where, and what order his pikmin are at any given time on the map.

Also, while the PPB lineup would not directly easier to deal with; Actually avoiding him getting the lineup would be made far easier if it was easier to tell what he had.

Overall though; You're right. It wouldn't directly alter any MUs or viability. It would just make fighting him far less mentally draining, and likely lose a LOT of free stocks from OOS Purple Usmash.

(I still prefer my Light Alert Idea though.)

 

[DelugeFGC]

Whistle is 17 frames, actually. The armor is frame 2, but 17 is actually more than double pikmin pluck time. Which as we know often sacrifices valuable stage control, and positioning while trying to use in neutral/advantage/disadvantage.

17 frames is also around the baseline for reaction time in smash (or 13 avg reaction + 5 frames buffer) And with the audio cue, it'd be easy enough to glance over to his new lineup.

So while not perfect, it'd probably be a tenable enough solution. Far easier than discerning where, and what order his pikmin are at any given time on the map.

Also, while the PPB lineup would not directly easier to deal with; Actually avoiding him getting the lineup would be made far easier if it was easier to tell what he had.

Overall though; You're right. It wouldn't directly alter any MUs or viability. It would just make fighting him far less mentally draining, and likely lose a LOT of free stocks from OOS Purple Usmash.

(I still prefer my Light Alert Idea though.)

I'm so used to referring to the damned armor I keep calling it F2, my bad. It's still a little chaotic to try and keep up with Pikmin order imo. I like your idea of the little bulb thing on his head better than a gauge on his portrait / % readout.

 

[Daisycakes]

The real issue probably isn't even recovery, but rather edgeguarding which despite what some may say, Chrom has his advantages as well as his obvious disadvantages. Like he can go lower and doesn't have to get as close to actually do something of note. Plus, he can always try and take them with him.

Meanwhile Roy can go further and be safer while hitting harder if you get close enough. Just don't go low.

Now, I won't sit here and tell you Chrom is better, but I do think he should be considered definitely.

Also, let's just admire the irony that some of their differences may seem more blatantly obvious than Marth and Lucina, but it's actually harder to determine which, if either, is better.

It's pretty obvious to me that Roy's better. He's designed to be better. Chrom is 90% custom balanced Roy with a linear up B (it's not worse though).

Oh and apparently Roy has a set weight hitbox on nair 2 and Chrom does not. (this is probably a bug, he's supposed to have it on nair 1)

Unpaid intern is still out there coding hitboxes

Marth, Lucina and Chrom have set weight hitboxes on Nair 1, meanwhile Roy has set weight on Nair 2 hitboxes

— Ruben (@Ruben_dal) May 20, 2019

 

[DelugeFGC]

IMO Roy is the best FE character, easily.

When his sweetspots start putting in work, the amount of power the character has is absolutely disgusting.. and you can easily confirm into them multiple ways. Sure his sourspot sucks.. but honestly he has the easiest sweetspots to land there is and his Side B is almost broken due to this.

Roy has definite problems.. but he's promising as hell. Lucina is consistent, but I feel like a well-optimized and developed Roy can turn into a very, very scary thing as we go further into this game. Roy can kill you mad early off of a good read, space you out, punish half the things you try on approach with Side-B and the other half with NAir / Jab, combo you for a ton of %, wreck you out of shield.. Roy has a lot going for him.

 

[Lacrimosa]

His sourspot can lead into further combos. At least that's what Roy players are saying but I don't know the character to that extent.
But I have to say: A sour-spot isn't always bad. Zeldas' dAir sourspot is very good (only off-stage) despite the small knockback. Yes, the sweet-spot is better but the sourspot lingers for a very long time. Her fair/bair sourspots are total crap, though .
Roy's sourspots apparently can lead into more things.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I'm not sure what everyone is chasing that's causing them to switch characters. But can we truly say that any character has fully reached their potential at this point in the meta? When I see people clamoring about Lucina over Marth I have to wonder is she really that much better than him? Why aren't we taking into consideration proper spacing and the rewards we get for tippers? It doesn't really make much sense to me maybe someone can explain it. Anyways I think it's probably more important to explore your character and their potential to the fullest before you give up with them.

Also I still think snake is the best character in the game and it's going to be a ***** trying to dethrone him. Also people should really hope that no one puts serious time into Ylink. He'll destroy a lot of the misconceptions people have about him

 

[Lacrimosa]

I'm not sure what everyone is chasing that's causing them to switch characters. But can we truly say that any character has fully reached their potential at this point in the meta? When I see people clamoring about Lucina over Marth I have to wonder is she really that much better than him? Why aren't we taking into consideration proper spacing and the rewards we get for tippers? It doesn't really make much sense to me maybe someone can explain it. Anyways I think it's probably more important to explore your character and their potential to the fullest before you give up with them.

Also I still think snake is the best character in the game and it's going to be a ***** trying to dethrone him. Also people should really hope that no one puts serious time into Ylink. He'll destroy a lot of the misconceptions people have about him

In theory, Marth is way better than Lucina. Period, that's just how it is.
But the developers did something smart here: They made Smash in a way that you and your opponent are constantly moving (shocking, right?). That way, you can't consistently space your tipper well. Your opponent knows that and tries to avoid this at all cost, meaning only around 5% of your hits are tipper-hits, maybe more, maybe less, the number is made up. Meaning in average you will deal less damage than Lucina ever will and the same goes for kills.
Simply because of that, I doubt there will be never a player that will nearly always get the tipper.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

In theory, Marth is way better than Lucina. Period, that's just how it is.
But the developers did something smart here: They made Smash in a way that you and your opponent are constantly moving (shocking, right?). That way, you can't consistently space your tipper well. Your opponent knows that and tries to avoid this at all cost, meaning only around 5% of your hits are tipper-hits, maybe more, maybe less, the number is made up. Meaning in average you will deal less damage than Lucina ever will and the same goes for kills.
Simply because of that, I doubt there will be never a player that will nearly always get the tipper.

where'd you get that 5% number from ? did yyou just pull it out your asS?

anyways i won't beat on the point too much but marth gets combos off of sour spots just like roy does. So yeah I really don't see the reason to rate Marth so lowly. Anyways as long as Marth can't turn sourspots into sweet spots he's allowed to have legitimate kill confirms at percentages lucina could only dream to kill at. But anyways cool story bro.

 

[Rizen]

I'm not sure what everyone is chasing that's causing them to switch characters. But can we truly say that any character has fully reached their potential at this point in the meta? When I see people clamoring about Lucina over Marth I have to wonder is she really that much better than him? Why aren't we taking into consideration proper spacing and the rewards we get for tippers? It doesn't really make much sense to me maybe someone can explain it. Anyways I think it's probably more important to explore your character and their potential to the fullest before you give up with them.

Also I still think snake is the best character in the game and it's going to be a ***** trying to dethrone him. Also people should really hope that no one puts serious time into Ylink. He'll destroy a lot of the misconceptions people have about him

The problem with technical characters is your opponent is always an 'uncooperative partner' in what you want to do. If it was a static dummy in training mode Marth certainly would be better but vs an opponent you'd have to know what they were going to do to space properly. You don't. Game plans with the least variables that can go awry have the best chance of succeeding. Also Ultimate is a game that intentionally makes reactionary gameplay ineffective.

Take YL's combo game for example. Dthrow>jump Uair is a true combo on the entire cast in theory but I had a Yoshi player DI hard to one side and missed. There wasn't time to react with Yoshi's high air speed. Against that character I would have had to predict his DI to make Uair connect. Another thing that can go wrong is if you Dthrow under a platform the opponent can tech to escape true combos. If YL simply had a high damage throw this wouldn't be an issue.

The more complex a gameplan is the more that can go wrong. There are slopes and platforms that mess with spacing, the opponent can DI, you're not sure any given attack will hit and not be shielded or dodged in the first place, sometimes hitbubble placement can give opponents just enough room to escape, you have to keep track of %s and character's weight, etc. All this on top of having to outplay your opponent in footsies, zoning, whatever to land hits in the first place. Consistency is a valuable thing in fighting games. It's why characters with strong simple options like Wolf and Lucina are so good.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

The problem with technical characters is your opponent is always an 'unwilling partner' in what you want to do. If it was a static dummy in training mode Marth certainly would be better but vs an opponent you'd have to know what they were going to do to space properly. You don't. Game plans with the least variables that can go awry have the best chance of succeeding. Also Ultimate is a game that intentionally makes reactionary gameplay ineffective.

Take YL's combo game for example. Dthrow>jump Uair is a true combo on the entire cast in theory but I had a Yoshi player DI hard to one side and missed. There wasn't time to react with Yoshi's high air speed. Against that character I would have had to predict his DI to make Uair connect. Another thing that can go wrong is if you Dthrow under a platform the opponent can tech to escape true combos. If YL simply had a high damage throw this wouldn't be an issue.

The more complex a gameplan is the more that can go wrong. There are slopes and platforms that mess with spacing, the opponent can DI, you're not sure any given attack will hit and not be shielded or dodged in the first place, sometimes hitbubble placement can give opponents just enough room to escape, you have to keep track of %s and character's weight, etc. All this on top of having to outplay your opponent in footsies, zoning, whatever to land hits in the first place. Consistency is a valuable thing in fighting games. It's why characters with strong simple options like Wolf and Lucina are so good.

Not for nothing but a lot of the stuff you're talking is something that you learn from over time. The Yoshi stuff is basically something that exclusive to him because his DJ has armor. In sm4sh Yoshi was able to DJ throw m2's fthrow. If there's a platform there you have to take that into account. A lot of what you're saying to me sounds like lack of knowledge because of the player and not necessarily the limits of the character. Anyways you cannot take the basic fundamental elements of the game and say this character is a failure because I'm unable to adapt to my opponent's DI or a platform of stage slanting. That's really weak. Option coverage is also apart of the game too and just because someone can tech on to a platform doesn't mean that they've freely escaped your pressure. But we all know this stuff so why even pretend like its an issue ?

 

[Rizen]

Not for nothing but a lot of the stuff you're talking is something that you learn from over time. The Yoshi stuff is basically something that exclusive to him because his DJ has armor. In sm4sh Yoshi was able to DJ throw m2's fthrow. If there's a platform there you have to take that into account. A lot of what you're saying to me sounds like lack of knowledge because of the player and not necessarily the limits of the character. Anyways you cannot take the basic fundamental elements of the game and say this character is a failure because I'm unable to adapt to my opponent's DI or a platform of stage slanting. That's really weak. Option coverage is also apart of the game too and just because someone can tech on to a platform doesn't mean that they've freely escaped your pressure. But we all know this stuff so why even pretend like its an issue ?

Yoshi escaping has nothing to do with his double jump; his airspeed changes a combo into a 50/50 situation. Having a platform above is the same issue, you lose a guaranteed combo for a tech chase. That's entirely based on predictions. If the stage slants it distorts the spacing for followups and opponents can escape. This is not someone "failing to adapt" it's literally losing true combos due to environmental factors. My point stands it's better to have a simple strong option than a complex string of actions where something can go wrong.

 

[SwagGuy99]

Roy and Chrom are likely popular now because they feel fast, hit hard, are simple to pick up and play and have flashy looking combos. Many people aren't even aware that Chrom has a shorter sword than Marth.

Yeah they (Roy/Chrom) have less range (Than Marcina), but because of Ultimate's faster pace and the placement of Marth and Roy's sweetspots, Roy usually has a easier time landing sweetspots than Marth, even if he does have less range.

 

[Arthur97]

I probably shouldn't be surprised, but Chrom really should have the same length sword as at least Lucina. Then again, he should be significantly taller than Lucina too (as should Male Robin be taller than Female Robin, but Smash doesn't care much for scale, look at Olimar).

Roy has plenty of kill power, and it's easier to land than Marth's, but potential doesn't do much if it sin't realized. Though, apparently it's done wonders for Shulk's placements.

 

[MH-Jin]

One thing to note about why Lucina is so much more consistent than Marth in this game is that they both lost jab setups and tipper dancing blade has lost some of its kill potency (aka no Leo blade), so they lack kill options when on the ground.

In smash 4, we'd regularly see MkLeo use jab cancel to tipper ftilt and jab cancel to tipper fair to close out stocks off a neutral win, especially at the ledge. Jab was frame 5, covered a wide horizontal space in front of him and could be done out of perfect pivot for microspacing.

In this game, while Marth can kill off a neutral exchange somewhat easier than Lucina (who has to convert to advantage in most cases to get early kills), Marth at the current time lacks setups from his sour spots into his tippers (especially on the ground).

This prevents him from killing off the neutral exchange, which was a huge benefit in smash 4. Instead he has to convert into advantage like Lucina to get the early kill or he has to get a read. However since Lucina advantage state is more consistent with her even knockback (especially during edgeguarding), we see Lucina having more success in those longer brackets as opposed to Marth, who can have more volatile games due to the sour spot/tipper mechanic.

I see the argument where y'all are coming from in terms of constantly battling with your opponent in terms of spacing and in this area Marcina does have mostly similar gameplan. However, since their setups are different and they have different reward even off stray hits, that creates the difference between them. Until Marth is able to find consistent reward for hitting his sour spot in that battle, it's hard to see him even tying with Lucina later down the line. These setups though may either require more exploration or maybe even patches to occur to close the gap between Marth/Lucina.