Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Roguewolf]

God this games balance is impeccable I love that almost any charachter can be used and can be really effective a good day to play smash bros

 

[IsmaR]

I'm aware most of the attention will be drawn towards the more visible events (namely GOML/BAM11), but I do want to give some love to some of the sizeable yet obviously less watched tourneys given how stacked they were.

https://challonge.com/ShullabraSP3T

Shulla-bra SP 3 (123 entrants) (Fukuoka, Kyushu [Japan])

1) 8Mitsuki -
2) HIDE - /
3) Beji -
4) Dooka -
5) Chonren -
5) Karoegu -
7) Munekin -
7) Azure -
9) OCEAN -
9) Tetsuwan -
9) Kurousa -
9) k-shin -
13) Murasat -
13) Pikazono -
13) Shissho -
13) Hide -

8Mitsuki in particular put on an exceptional display, having previously been in the same boat as many up and coming slayers from Japan (played Smash 4 almost exclusively on 3DS/wi-fi). Their movement/edgeguards seemed like they were on a whole new level, and they remained dominant in basically every set. https://clips.twitch.tv/QuaintShortNoodleFrankerZ

Shuton was away/in France to win a major there (to make up for the lack of Olimar in top 8 at GOML), along with Abadango getting 3rd place behind Gluttony.

Lastly Ascension V happened yesterday, with Pandarian/BestNess/Nicko/S2H in attendance. Stroder got knocked into losers, but then essentially played the random roulette (this wasn't even all the characters he used) to climb back up and dominantly win with a bracket reset.

As much as I'd like to attribute it to Stroder just being amazing, a ton of the characters he used (Doctor Mario, MK, Incineroar, Joker, etc.) aren't match ups most seem particularly well versed in, plus switching so erratically (practically every game) made me think having so many characters could be a bigger boon than previously thought.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Comparing any character to a Smash 4 equivalent beyond MAYBE design archetype (MAYBE) is faulty because of how fundamental mechanics are vastly different between games. Ledge attacks being fully invuln and the general improvements to ledge options change so much.

 

[williamsga555]

He [DDD] was the easiest character to 0 to death in Smash 4.

This isn't accurate in the slightest, to be frank. Yes, Smash 4 D3 had a pretty awful disadvantage state, but it was far from the worst in the cast -he had the advantage of having extremely low gravity + multijumps + a landing mixup (albeit a mediocre one) with ff nair vs (b-reverse) inhale. His recovery was nigh-ungimpable and the threat of up air sharking meant that those pressuring him on the ledge had to at least be mindful of that option (as opposed to, say, DK).

The core issue with Smash 4 D3 was that his advantage was nowhere near strong enough to compensate for how hideous his neutral was. He had other issues, but none that doomed him nearly as poorly as that, imo.

 

[SwagGuy99]

This isn't accurate in the slightest, to be frank. Yes, Smash 4 D3 had a pretty awful disadvantage state, but it was far from the worst in the cast -he had the advantage of having extremely low gravity + multijumps + a landing mixup (albeit a mediocre one) with ff nair vs (b-reverse) inhale. His recovery was nigh-ungimpable and the threat of up air sharking meant that those pressuring him on the ledge had to at least be mindful of that option (as opposed to, say, DK).

The core issue with Smash 4 D3 was that his advantage was nowhere near strong enough to compensate for how hideous his neutral was. He had other issues, but none that doomed him nearly as poorly as that, imo.

I guess I can see that opinion. His fall speed was very high and his recovery was decent for the most part so actually killing him could sometimes be a challenge even at 100% damage.

But I will say that getting him to kill percent or near kill percent was still incredibly easy and he was the easiest character to combo in the game of Smash 4 even with his multiple jumps and when you take his air speed, fall speed, and weight into consideration, it's not hard to see why.

Edit: Also, I was comparing K. Rool to Smash 4 Dedede, not because they share the same strengths, but because their weaknesses are very similar, even in the different game engine and it effects them both in much of the same way.

 

[Ark of Silence101]

The more I watch MkLeo's Joker, the more I am convinced Smash 4 Sheik players should just switch to him.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzNA22knCSo

Something I want to point out from this set here: just how aggressive with Aether Marss is. He basically uses it to replace Jab because the super armor only comes out one frame slower than Ike's Jab 1 and has a much higher reward. It wasn't even just OoS, he was using it raw frequently when ESAM was in front of him. When done with a platform or ledge within range, its actually a relatively safe option: beats out most attacks (it did get clanked once), potentially hits somebody who tried to spotdodge it depending on the timing, if the opponent roles out of the way and you land on a platform or the ledge you're probably not getting punished for it. If it get shielded its a somewhat similar story: opponent has more time to react but they can also get shieldpoked.

Marss also did a good job making the most out of Ike's recovery against a character that is quite strong at edgeguarding. Quickdraw does a lot, as does Ike's weight for survivability.

I don't think Ike does better than 50/50 against PIkachu, but its probably a better MU than ZSS has against the rat. It would play pretty much the same against Pichu but without Pichu having the ability to mess Ike up with Up B.

Ike ain't dead, still room to explore in his kit. The Dsmash kill has been another thing I've been wondering about. If the Frame data is good enough it might be worth throwing out even though it tends to be a rather lackluster smash attack: its noticeably faster than Fsmash or Usmash and is going to catch people off guard.

 

[**Gilgamesh**]

This isn't accurate in the slightest, to be frank. Yes, Smash 4 D3 had a pretty awful disadvantage state, but it was far from the worst in the cast -he had the advantage of having extremely low gravity + multijumps + a landing mixup (albeit a mediocre one) with ff nair vs (b-reverse) inhale. His recovery was nigh-ungimpable and the threat of up air sharking meant that those pressuring him on the ledge had to at least be mindful of that option (as opposed to, say, DK).

The core issue with Smash 4 D3 was that his advantage was nowhere near strong enough to compensate for how hideous his neutral was. He had other issues, but none that doomed him nearly as poorly as that, imo.

Smash 4 DDD legit died to ZSS and Bayo off of any interaction. His advantage state was the least of his issues in smash 4. He benefits HEAVILY from the fact there is no easy 0-deaths in Ultimate along with the engine changes.

 

[Frihetsanka]

A solo K.Rool just won Australia's biggest yearly major.

It was a tournament without any PGR players at all and with around 337 entrants, which is hardly a major (B-tier for international tournaments, C-tier for USA-tournaments). Oh, and doesn't seem like there really were that many top tiers in top 8, arguably Shulk and/or Palutena. Tier lists primarily matter at the top level of play, and this doesn't seem to be it*. Even Little Mac, who is generally considered the worst character in the game right now, won a 161 person tournament.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

*I don't actually know much about the Australian scene, would be interesting to see if some of them could travel to Japan or the US and do well in larger tournaments there.

 

[Idon]

The Dsmash kill has been another thing I've been wondering about. If the Frame data is good enough it might be worth throwing out even though it tends to be a rather lackluster smash attack: its noticeably faster than Fsmash or Usmash and is going to catch people off guard.

Yeah, DSmash is Ike's fastest FSmash coming out frame 13, same as his ftilt.

The problem is its hitbox is terrible and it can't be angled like ftilt, on top of also being extremely slow on part of the back-swing and the slow endlag in general (29 more frames in total, nearly a half second).

You'd more likely see it online than anywhere else.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Yeah, DSmash is Ike's fastest FSmash coming out frame 13, same as his ftilt.

The problem is its hitbox is terrible and it can't be angled like ftilt, on top of also being extremely slow on part of the back-swing and the slow endlag in general (29 more frames in total, nearly a half second).

You'd more likely see it online than anywhere else.

Oh I'm aware of the issues with the move. End of the day though if its fast enough to catch somebody off guard while allowing Ike to be a bit less linear/predictable, might as well try to work it in as a surprise option every now and then. Like say if you've been catching landings with Usmash and they're starting to Airdodge to avoid it, switch to Dsmash and catch their lag with it. And it should be fast enough, Wolf's Dsmash hits on frame 14. Yes yes much better range + faster back hit/better in almost every other way. But for the situations where its speed up close is what seals the deal... Ike should be able to at least occasionally pull off something similar.

 

[williamsga555]

Smash 4 DDD legit died to ZSS and Bayo off of any interaction. His advantage state was the least of his issues in smash 4. He benefits HEAVILY from the fact there is no easy 0-deaths in Ultimate along with the engine changes.

Yeah, he had abysmal matchups against these two (and Mega Man, but for different reasons), but he wasn't the only one in that engine that suffered this fate. I wasn't arguing that Dedede had a good or even passable disadvantage in 4, but merelythat it wasn't the worst. I'd put at the *very* least DK and Mac below him in 4, and (matchup depending) Roy as well (there were certain characters who could extend disadvantage longer against specifically Mac and Roy due to character trait shenanigans, such as Doc).

Make no mistake -Smash 4 Dedede was bad in all game states except ledgetrapping, but his disadvantage was not the biggest flaw. His neutral was, along with the minimal reward he got for actually winning it in the first place.

 

[Rizen]

It was a tournament without any PGR players at all and with around 337 entrants, which is hardly a major (B-tier for international tournaments, C-tier for USA-tournaments). Oh, and doesn't seem like there really were that many top tiers in top 8, arguably Shulk and/or Palutena. Tier lists primarily matter at the top level of play, and this doesn't seem to be it*. Even Little Mac, who is generally considered the worst character in the game right now, won a 161 person tournament.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

*I don't actually know much about the Australian scene, would be interesting to see if some of them could travel to Japan or the US and do well in larger tournaments there.

I agree with what you're saying but at the same time, don't downplay it either. This is a lot better than anything perceived low tiers like Mac and Isabelle have done. It's better than several mid tiers for that matter.

Fighting through 337 players is no small feat. I've beaten 5 people iirc and not gotten top 48 at a 128 man tournament. The matches keep getting harder as time goes on and scrubs are weeded out. K.Rool prevailed against many good people.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I agree with what you're saying but at the same time, don't downplay it either. This is a lot better than anything perceived low tiers like Mac and Isabelle have done. It's better than several mid tiers for that matter.

Fighting through 337 players is no small feat. I've beaten 5 people iirc and not gotten top 48 at a 128 man tournament. The matches keep getting harder as time goes on and scrubs are weeded out. K.Rool prevailed against many good people.

Oh, it's a great accomplishment for him for sure, but it's kind of like competing in Division B when tier lists are primarily concerned with Division A. It does show that King K. Rool isn't absolute garbage, but I don't think anyone here was thinking he was: Even the worst characters in Smash Ultimate seem to be a lot better than the worst characters in Melee, Brawl, or even Smash 4. At this point in time we don't really know who the worst characters are anyway, perhaps King K. Rool is a bit better than what people give him credit for (we haven't seen a Kirby or a Bowser Jr. get such results, after all), but he's likely one of the weaker characters still.

It's entirely possible that every character in the game, even characters like King K. Rool, Little Mac, Isabelle, Piranha Plant, Kirby, and Jigglypuff could do well at smaller* tournaments when played by sufficiently skilled players, that doesn't mean that there character's aren't some of the worst in the game.

*Compared to tournaments like Frostbite and Genesis, at least.

 

[uhmuzing]

Being that Tweek and Shoyo James are likely at slightly different calibers of play, it's probably not helpful to compare their respective performances w Roy and Chrom and try to draw conclusions about where they rank compared w each other. But I was doing that anyways for a minute. Maybe at top level play Roy is marginally better if I'm putting my opinion out there, Chrom's recovery really does seem too exploitable even if his UpB has advantages over Roy's OoS and in other situations. But I was thinking too how discussing echo and clone characters inevitably revolves around comparing them to their counterparts primarily, and how in Ultimate this is more the case than ever because the balance of the whole cast means that even any two completely, radically unique characters are closer in terms of viability than ever before even if we're taking a commonly perceived low tier versus a high tier.

Which is cool af imo

 

[DelugeFGC]

I only bring this up as I posted about it a few pages ago, that being Doc () and such.

I think this character realistically is in the upper echelons of Mid-Tier, I used to rank him much lower but since deciding to counterpick with him a few times at a weekly, I got surprising results. It may be MU inexperience.. but idk.

Pills are, ****ing amazing. 7% unstale at close range and over 5% at a distance unstale. They do so much damage, basically for free, as you can put them out with little commitment in neutral as long as you keep spaced.. you can also B reverse Pill in the air to catch people off guard. They also confirm into his aerials and such which is real damned nice, in particular I'm quite fond of the ole' one-two Pill to DAir off the ledge.

Dr. Tornado is legit kinda stupid, if you catch someone with it high up or lower off the edge, they're likely going to die if they're anywhere above about 40-70% depending on character weight.. not to mention it's great as a mixup in disadvantage when landing and you can also kill confirm into it multiple ways. Super Jump Punch is a horrible recovery move, but it's a fabulous attack. As an OoS option it is wonderful, but he also has moves that combo into it for tons of % output (unsure if anything confirms into it at higher %'s.. maybe DTilt?) AND it's a great panic button in some situations, even the sour spot can save your ass in many instances.

Dr. Punch (FAir) is a lot like Captain Falcon's knee, only the sourspot is actually decent to land itself unlike weak knee which is basically only useful to gimp. I also generally have a much easier time landing Dr. Punch outside of true combos / confirms, something I cannot say about Falcon's knee in Ult. This move, sweetspotted, does damned near right at 20% (it's like 19%ish I think) and has a metric assload of knockback on it.. kills mad early AND stuff confirms into it. Really all there is to say there, honestly.

He has Mario's frame data, which goes a long way to bolster his otherwise sluggish mobility. His smash attacks are absolutely wonderful for quick read situations, and they too also can be confirmed into via other moves. Defib (FSmash) has less range than Mario's but my god does it hurt when it lands (25-35%), this move kills so early it isn't even funny.. especially if they don't have good DI. USmash is hella fast and generally easy to combo into. DSmash also has means to combo into it at low %'s, though outside of this and 2-framing I don't see it having a ton of use.

I like super sheet more than cape personally, but at the end of the day that could be down to preference as the two moves, despite being somewhat different.. are extremely similar in function. Doc can't go out as brazenly with it to gimp recoveries like Mario can (well, he can.. but that's suicide), but as a reflector it's extremely useful and I still manage to redirect a recovery or two now and again.

DAir is just, nice. Not only does it meteor in a manner that's easier to pull off imo than the ole' dunk (Mario's FAir), it combos into so much of his kit it isn't even funny.. including FAir. Very nice aerial. NAir. Mario's NAir.. not much to say on that, good defensive / reactive move as a panic button when airborne.

BAir is again, very similar to Mario's barring the tweaks on it. Not much to say on this move either. UAir is like Mario's but I'll talk about it anyway. This move is spam city, you can string UAir's together sometimes 3-4+ times in a single true combo if you execute right, this is probably one of the most spammable aerials in the entire game and it's a great move overall.

Combo and throw game is all there as has been said in my previous post. His BThrow kills stupid early at the ledge and is a kill option ALL the time pretty much when they get to high % which is nice. Otherwise, a mixture of U/DThrow will be where most of your combos come out of the throws, and FThrow is.. well I don't really know. Can't say I ever use it, it's decent enough I guess.. but why? I'd rather DThrow > BAir them or something and get infinitely greater reward, I cannot see much reason to use FThrow even at the ledge. His grab range seems to be lesser than Mario's, however.

His mobility, no, it isn't great. This combined with his completely.. tragic, recovery are entirely what holds him back, more-so (like 95% more-so) the recovery situation all said. If not for Doc's abysmal recovery (he literally dies for free if you hit him offstage and he can't commit to edge guards out further than just at the ledge.. or it's curtains) I'd say he'd genuinely be better than regular Mario. I like him as a character WAAAY more and he's pretty interesting.. Pill is also probably one of the best projectiles in this game tbh.



As said above, I think Doc is one of the kings of mid-tier.. but there's no real way he can ever rise beyond that (despite him as a character having more than enough potential) given his absolutely pathetic recovery. It's almost kind of infuriating to see how hard Doc's recovery got shafted, I don't know if it's because getting knocked offstage is generally death in Melee, but it doesn't seem nearly as terrible there to me. That said, he has very high damage output (strings with Doc can do anywhere from 20-80%), can kill extremely early and can be somewhat oppressive when he is on stage due to pills and his frame data. Because of this, even with his tragedy of a recovery.. I still can't rate him lower than high mid tier.

 

[Hippieslayer]

I only bring this up as I posted about it a few pages ago, that being Doc () and such.

I think this character realistically is in the upper echelons of Mid-Tier, I used to rank him much lower but since deciding to counterpick with him a few times at a weekly, I got surprising results. It may be MU inexperience.. but idk.

Pills are, ****ing amazing. 7% unstale at close range and over 5% at a distance unstale. They do so much damage, basically for free, as you can put them out with little commitment in neutral as long as you keep spaced.. you can also B reverse Pill in the air to catch people off guard. They also confirm into his aerials and such which is real damned nice, in particular I'm quite fond of the ole' one-two Pill to DAir off the ledge.

Dr. Tornado is legit kinda stupid, if you catch someone with it high up or lower off the edge, they're likely going to die if they're anywhere above about 40-70% depending on character weight.. not to mention it's great as a mixup in disadvantage when landing and you can also kill confirm into it multiple ways. Super Jump Punch is a horrible recovery move, but it's a fabulous attack. As an OoS option it is wonderful, but he also has moves that combo into it for tons of % output (unsure if anything confirms into it at higher %'s.. maybe DTilt?) AND it's a great panic button in some situations, even the sour spot can save your *** in many instances.

Dr. Punch (FAir) is a lot like Captain Falcon's knee, only the sourspot is actually decent to land itself unlike weak knee which is basically only useful to gimp. I also generally have a much easier time landing Dr. Punch outside of true combos / confirms, something I cannot say about Falcon's knee in Ult. This move, sweetspotted, does damned near right at 20% (it's like 19%ish I think) and has a metric assload of knockback on it.. kills mad early AND stuff confirms into it. Really all there is to say there, honestly.

He has Mario's frame data, which goes a long way to bolster his otherwise sluggish mobility. His smash attacks are absolutely wonderful for quick read situations, and they too also can be confirmed into via other moves. Defib (FSmash) has less range than Mario's but my god does it hurt when it lands (25-35%), this move kills so early it isn't even funny.. especially if they don't have good DI. USmash is hella fast and generally easy to combo into. DSmash also has means to combo into it at low %'s, though outside of this and 2-framing I don't see it having a ton of use.

I like super sheet more than cape personally, but at the end of the day that could be down to preference as the two moves, despite being somewhat different.. are extremely similar in function. Doc can't go out as brazenly with it to gimp recoveries like Mario can (well, he can.. but that's suicide), but as a reflector it's extremely useful and I still manage to redirect a recovery or two now and again.

DAir is just, nice. Not only does it meteor in a manner that's easier to pull off imo than the ole' dunk (Mario's FAir), it combos into so much of his kit it isn't even funny.. including FAir. Very nice aerial. NAir. Mario's NAir.. not much to say on that, good defensive / reactive move as a panic button when airborne.

BAir is again, very similar to Mario's barring the tweaks on it. Not much to say on this move either. UAir is like Mario's but I'll talk about it anyway. This move is spam city, you can string UAir's together sometimes 3-4+ times in a single true combo if you execute right, this is probably one of the most spammable aerials in the entire game and it's a great move overall.

Combo and throw game is all there as has been said in my previous post. His BThrow kills stupid early at the ledge and is a kill option ALL the time pretty much when they get to high % which is nice. Otherwise, a mixture of U/DThrow will be where most of your combos come out of the throws, and FThrow is.. well I don't really know. Can't say I ever use it, it's decent enough I guess.. but why? I'd rather DThrow > BAir them or something and get infinitely greater reward, I cannot see much reason to use FThrow even at the ledge. His grab range seems to be lesser than Mario's, however.

His mobility, no, it isn't great. This combined with his completely.. tragic, recovery are entirely what holds him back, more-so (like 95% more-so) the recovery situation all said. If not for Doc's abysmal recovery (he literally dies for free if you hit him offstage and he can't commit to edge guards out further than just at the ledge.. or it's curtains) I'd say he'd genuinely be better than regular Mario. I like him as a character WAAAY more and he's pretty interesting.. Pill is also probably one of the best projectiles in this game tbh.



As said above, I think Doc is one of the kings of mid-tier.. but there's no real way he can ever rise beyond that (despite him as a character having more than enough potential) given his absolutely pathetic recovery. It's almost kind of infuriating to see how hard Doc's recovery got shafted, I don't know if it's because getting knocked offstage is generally death in Melee, but it doesn't seem nearly as terrible there to me. That said, he has very high damage output (strings with Doc can do anywhere from 20-80%), can kill extremely early and can be somewhat oppressive when he is on stage due to pills and his frame data. Because of this, even with his tragedy of a recovery.. I still can't rate him lower than high mid tier.

His nair is not like Marios, its strong hit is the late hit while the early one is weak. Arguably worse than Marios because its not a good gtfoff me move and the weak hit is so weak it cant be used for jab resets.

Marios fair is also a better meteor because its easier to confirm into since it hits sideways thus requiring less positioning before it can be landed.

His cape is also inferior. No air stall mixups suck.

 

[ARISTOS]

Tweek's Roy reminds me of his Cloud in a lot of ways, a large emphasis on verticality and using the ambiguity falling uair provides (similar to ) to create no option scenarios for his opponents. The one big difference is of course that Roy has the added threat of grabs whereas Cloud doesn't really threaten with them, so ff into grab extends Roy's extensive mixup options.

Parrying of course helps nullify the threat of these options-I wonder how well Light would have done in these games given he's probably the ~best~ at parrying, but Marss definitely caught on to the SH threat as the set went on.

Jab-bair is a ludicrous confirm, basically a S4 confirm in this game

 

[DunnoBro]

His nair is not like Marios, its strong hit is the late hit while the early one is weak. Arguably worse than Marios because its not a good gtfoff me move and the weak hit is so weak it cant be used for jab resets.

Marios fair is also a better meteor because its easier to confirm into since it hits sideways thus requiring less positioning before it can be landed.

His cape is also inferior. No air stall mixups suck.

Nair is a worse immediate get-off tool. But a better landing option. (And he has SJP for immediate get-off if he really needs it) Mario's nair actually doesn't have a hitbox to the end. Doc's does, making it a much more consistent neutral tool.

Nair isn't actually a good neutral tool for Mario due to the commitment and low reward unlike Doc.

Doc's Fair is also a way better ledge coverage option. Covering ledge jump, rising options, and Doc's sh height actually makes it less laggy/punishable since they rely on autocancel frames.

Also, Doc's fair is effectively a spike lol. Like, there's maybe a 8% interval difference where Doc's Fair wouldn't kill offstage, and Mario's would. And Doc's is consistently rewarding onstage at all other percents.

But yea, no confirms since they tweaked dthrow/dtilt. They pretty much made cyclone his new fair for confirms.

Cape is also a way better neutral and advantage* tool since it doesn't kill doc's momentum, giving it effectively more range. (But it is a way worse disadvantage tool as you said)

 

[DelugeFGC]

Nair is a worse immediate get-off tool. But a better landing option. (And he has SJP for immediate get-off if he really needs it) Mario's nair actually doesn't have a hitbox to the end. Doc's does, making it a much more consistent neutral tool.

Nair isn't actually a good neutral tool for Mario due to the commitment and low reward unlike Doc.

Doc's Fair is also a way better ledge coverage option. Covering ledge jump, rising options, and Doc's sh height actually makes it less laggy/punishable since they rely on autocancel frames.

Also, Doc's fair is effectively a spike lol. Like, there's maybe a 8% interval difference where Doc's Fair wouldn't kill offstage, and Mario's would. And Doc's is consistently rewarding onstage at all other percents.

But yea, no confirms since they tweaked dthrow/dtilt. They pretty much made cyclone his new fair for confirms.

Cape is also a way better neutral and advantage* tool since it doesn't kill doc's momentum, giving it effectively more range. (But it is a way worse disadvantage tool as you said)

DAir to FAir absolutely confirms, though at higher %, and it has a bit of a Goldilocks range. Too high a % and they get stage spiked too high. All said, in the 60-100% range, it can be made true for sure. I've combo'd into FAir out of DAir multiple times.

Also FAir can be combo'd into in at least 3 ways without killing at lower %'s, two of them are sourspot combos though.

In regards to meteor subject, I still think Doc's DAir is a better meteor than Mario's FAir. Doc's DAir combos into damned near all of his aerials, UTilt, USmash, potentially even DSmash from a DTilt combo at low percent (DAir > DTilt > DSmash, timing is very strict on this one and requires you to space the DAir perfectly.. and it stops working past like 5-6%) and such. Also, I find it much more consistent to land even at the edge. Pill to DAir is a true combo off the ledge and you don't even need to time it all that great, you can spit pills out like a corrupt pharmacist at a pain management clinic as Doc.

 

[DunnoBro]

DAir to FAir absolutely confirms, though at higher %, and it has a bit of a Goldilocks range. Too high a % and they get stage spiked too high. All said, in the 60-100% range, it can be made true for sure. I've combo'd into FAir out of DAir multiple times.

Also FAir can be combo'd into in at least 3 ways without killing at lower %'s, two of them are sourspot combos though.

In regards to meteor subject, I still think Doc's DAir is a better meteor than Mario's FAir. Doc's DAir combos into damned near all of his aerials, UTilt, USmash, potentially even DSmash from a DTilt combo at low percent (DAir > DTilt > DSmash, timing is very strict on this one and requires you to space the DAir perfectly.. and it stops working past like 5-6%) and such. Also, I find it much more consistent to land even at the edge. Pill to DAir is a true combo off the ledge and you don't even need to time it all that great, you can spit pills out like a corrupt pharmacist at a pain management clinic as Doc.

Cyclone is better to combo off dair. 6 frames faster, better overall hitbox, super armor to beat dragon punches, and the percents Dair > Fair works don't really kill well. Pretty much every time Fair COULD combo, Cyclone would do it better.

So there likely are fair confirms, but it seems pretty obvious with the more vertical/inward angle of stuff like Dair, Dash Attack, Dtilt, Dthrow, etc that Cyclone's the intended confirm.

And yea, Doc's Dair is a better raw spiking tool than Mario's Fair by far. Though Mario's Fair is a necessary tool for punishing people trying to recover high. The auto-cancel frames of dair also make it a better landing and ledge coverage tool.

I don't even know what Doc's Dair was for in smash 4.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

I don't even know what Doc's Dair was for in smash 4.

It was his main edge-guarding tool and had some very situational combo potential due to it's lag with little range.
Making it pretty mediocre at best.

Although I do like to think what it could of been like if they kept it in Ultimate.
If it had the frame data of his current Dair, it would of been great.
But I think most prefer the current Stomp we got. (Myself included)

In regards to meteor subject, I still think Doc's DAir is a better meteor than Mario's FAir.

Oh unequivocally.
It's amazing frame data and ability to SHAC alone makes it better.

You even kill confirm with Dair to F-Smash at around 30-45% (Depending on the character) by the edge.

 

[Rizen]

I haven't seen much echo CPing. Sometimes Peach players choose Daisy but that's purely aesthetic and I've seen Venom CP Ryu sometimes instead of Ken, maybe because he is more worried about punishing than approaching? But aside from those Lucina players don't CP Marth, Chrom/Roy players stick with that character, not much point in switching Belmonts except for maybe Link and Olimar MUs, same goes for Samuses. I never see Mario players use Dr.M either. What I do see is Fox players like Larry Lurr using other space animals and some Link players also use YL, even though they're not echoes. Is their a meta for CPing clone-esk characters?

 

[Lacrimosa]

I haven't seen much echo CPing. Sometimes Peach players choose Daisy but that's purely aesthetic and I've seen Venom CP Ryu sometimes instead of Ken, maybe because he is more worried about punishing than approaching? But aside from those Lucina players don't CP Marth, Chrom/Roy players stick with that character, not much point in switching Belmonts except for maybe Link and Olimar MUs, same goes for Samuses. I never see Mario players use Dr.M either. What I do see is Fox players like Larry Lurr using other space animals and some Link players also use YL, even though they're not echoes. Is their a meta for CPing clone-esk characters?

I think D. Samus players want to reach the ground with their uSmash. Samus can't do that which hurts her a bit even though her uSmash coveres more the air. And her hurtbox is afaik a bit different than Samus' but I don't know in what way

 

[DelugeFGC]

I haven't seen much echo CPing. Sometimes Peach players choose Daisy but that's purely aesthetic and I've seen Venom CP Ryu sometimes instead of Ken, maybe because he is more worried about punishing than approaching? But aside from those Lucina players don't CP Marth, Chrom/Roy players stick with that character, not much point in switching Belmonts except for maybe Link and Olimar MUs, same goes for Samuses. I never see Mario players use Dr.M either. What I do see is Fox players like Larry Lurr using other space animals and some Link players also use YL, even though they're not echoes. Is their a meta for CPing clone-esk characters?

It seems that each Echo has one of the two characters far more popular than the other as you said, so you could CP to SOME of them and probably get by on MU inexperience alone.. especially with Doc. Everybody tried to fight me like I was regular Mario, and that just doesn't work when one combo from Doc can be your entire stock. He demands way more respect onstage, even if he's easier to punish due to his mobility.

 

[TTTTTsd]

One additional property of Dr. Mario's down air: He tucks in during the move's startup and you can dodge MANY grounded and even aerial attacks during this bit, and the attack will come out later and punish. Its very good for pressure up close because of this, it is REALLY hard to anti air in a general sense.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I think D. Samus players want to reach the ground with their uSmash. Samus can't do that which hurts her a bit even though her uSmash coveres more the air. And her hurtbox is afaik a bit different than Samus' but I don't know in what way

Pretty sure Dark Samus's hurtbox is only different via her animations. She doesn't curl up for her double jump, for instance.

Also, vaguely related, her landing animation from Screw Attack is...really weird? Am I the only one who thinks this? Even when I'm the one using her it keeps surprising me.

 

[Rizen]

Pretty sure Dark Samus's hurtbox is only different via her animations. She doesn't curl up for her double jump, for instance.

Also, vaguely related, her landing animation from Screw Attack is...really weird? Am I the only one who thinks this? Even when I'm the one using her it keeps surprising me.

Underneath all that Samus armor DS is still a giant space crab.

I was thinking about it and Chrom is a successful model of what Little Mac was supposed to be. Chrom is a ground based fighter, but not limited to the ground like Mac, who's absolutely devastating onstage yet gets destroyed offstage. Chrom and Roy to a lesser extent are the good Macs.

 

[Justin Allen Goldschmidt]

Underneath all that Samus armor DS is still a giant space crab.

I was thinking about it and Chrom is a successful model of what Little Mac was supposed to be. Chrom is a ground based fighter, but not limited to the ground like Mac, who's absolutely devastating onstage yet gets destroyed offstage. Chrom and Roy to a lesser extent are the good Macs.

I can kind of see that... They both have somewhat mediocre recoveries as well, but still much better than Mac's... They have usable throws.... And their ground movement is pretty oppressive in the right hands. I guess I never thought of them like Mac at all, but there's a little bit of a connection. Wrong thread for it, but I wonder what Mac would be like exactly as he is now, but with sword hitboxes....

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Underneath all that Samus armor DS is still a giant space crab.

I was thinking about it and Chrom is a successful model of what Little Mac was supposed to be. Chrom is a ground based fighter, but not limited to the ground like Mac, who's absolutely devastating onstage yet gets destroyed offstage. Chrom and Roy to a lesser extent are the good Macs.

I can sort see that.
Although, Chrom's air game is stupid amazing, something Mac could only dream of.. (Along with a decent grab game)

Roy and Chrom I think fits the bill as 'Falcon with a sword' better IMO.

They have usable throws....

You're giving Mac way too much credit...

His grabs and throws are complete garbage...
They don't combo, kill, do any threatening damage or put you in any real bad position on-top of being locked behind laggy & short ranged grabs.

 

[IsmaR]

I think D. Samus players want to reach the ground with their uSmash. Samus can't do that which hurts her a bit even though her uSmash coveres more the air.

U-smash hitting slightly lower is an incredibly smaller deal than its been blown up to be. The move is still difficult to do anything other than anti-air/cover platforms with.

The biggest/actual game changing thing I find is Dark Samus does more shield stun with electric effect attacks, and can hit lower with her charge shot/missiles. The best example of the latter is that a crouching/dashing Pichu will duck under Samus' uncharged neutral B, but Dark Samus' will hit.

Things like Pikmin matter, but both Samus and Dark Samus still have to deal with both red and yellow Pikmin blocking different moves (red blocks explosions from Missiles and Morph Ball Bomb, yellow blocks Charge Shot, Screw Attack and z-air for both Samus'). Similarly Dark Samus can still detonate explosives with missiles/bomb, and you generally don't want to use moves like F-air/D-tilt/F-smash or D-smash (at least, they aren't really moves you want to use to deal with explosives in the first place) to determine MU advantages.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Underneath all that Samus armor DS is still a giant space crab.

I was thinking about it and Chrom is a successful model of what Little Mac was supposed to be. Chrom is a ground based fighter, but not limited to the ground like Mac, who's absolutely devastating onstage yet gets destroyed offstage. Chrom and Roy to a lesser extent are the good Macs.

That's true, but I was more thinking about how when Dark Samus lands from her up special, she stays curled up for the duration of the landing lag and does a little sort of floaty bounce thing? It makes it surprisingly hard to tell when she's actually landed -- it can look like she's still in the air and therefore more punishable than she actually is.

It's the sort of thing that really comes down to matchup knowledge, but it throws me off every other time I see it.

 

[Justin Allen Goldschmidt]

I can sort see that.
Although, Chrom's air game is stupid amazing, something Mac could only dream of.. (Along with a decent grab game)

Roy and Chrom I think fits the bill as 'Falcon with a sword' better IMO.



You're giving Mac way too much credit...

His grabs and throws are complete garbage...
They don't combo, kill, do any threatening damage or put you in any real bad position on-top of being locked behind laggy & short ranged grabs.

I worded that poorly. I meant that they have usable throws and Mac does not.

 

[Rizen]

Riddles got 13th at GOML with solo , beating Anti's Mario and Mr.E's Lucina. I still think Belmonts are the most polarizing characters in the game; they probably have the best advantage state but it's balanced by a terrible offstage game. IMO they're better than mid tiers and are lower high tiers. Despite their weakness they're extremely oppressive and have a lot of safe pokes and zoning in neutral.

 

[Sean²]

I feel like I want to say both Belmonts have either 70:30 matchups or 30:70 matchups, no in between beyond a ditto of some sort. I know this likely isn't true but it sure feels that way. Sad day when you go from 3 stocking Ridley only to have them switch to Pichu and they 3 stock you right back.

 

[DungeonMaster]

It was a very solid showing by Riddles at GOML but also clear solo belmont is not possible. These are counter pick only characters, the bad matchups are simply too bad past a certain level of skill. Like 1-2 reads and you're dead.

 

[Rizen]

I don't think Belmont's bad MUs are as bad as his good MUs are good. Against ESAM's pikachu Riddles lost 3-0 but all 3 were last stock close games. This is despite gimps.

 

[DelugeFGC]

It's also a bit hard to focus on precise reads when a Belmont is at a distance tossing out 37 hitboxes at you that cover most of the stage. They're too oppressive and good where they're good to be truly considered mid tiers, I agree with Rizen.

 

[Justin Allen Goldschmidt]

I mean....if more people would pocket any of the Space Animals, Belmonts would fall off hard imo. I know reflectors seem like they're too simple, or a noob tactic, or whatever...but they do their job just fine and really put a damper on hard zoners. Unless the spacie player is being totally predictable and lame, there's not a ton of reason they should be getting hit by basically anything from more than half stage away, and anything closer than that against the Belmonts specifically isn't too difficult to get through and punish with basic burst options from Wolf and Fox. Falco had less of an easy time with that play style, but his absurd full-hop height makes for another fairly interesting match-up, one that I haven't personally struggled with, though I haven't seen much Falco play from a high level.

 

[SwagGuy99]

So Blank just made a tier list. https://twitter.com/BlankSmash/status/1130867989899669505

There's some interesting opinions here that may be worth discussing:

• Luigi is pretty high considering many people seem to think of him as a low mid/low tier.
• Capt. Falcon is (again) very high up compared to where people usually rank him.
• Duck Hunt, Bayonetta, and Ice Climbers are ranked in B+ Tier which is much higher than I normally see people rank them.
• Pirahna Plant isn't low tier.
• DK is quite low although that's kind of a recent trend that I've noticed in other places as well, not just here.
• Roy and Chrom are higher than Lucaina in the highest tier.
• Villager and Isabelle are ranked right next to each other in C Tier.
• Mii Swordfighter is in the lowest tier. Not sure if this is meant to reflect 1111 Mii Swordfighter but either way, I can't really see him being that low.