Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

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DunnoBro

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Doc could probably stand a MINOR recovery buff. (Cyclone carrying momentum from a DJ better so he can recover super high and threaten dair/pill reversals more effectively, but still carrying a lot of risk)

But overall, I really think he's in a good spot for a character like him. Like, if you want a tournament-viable Mario; You already have one.

Characters who can touch of death you at 50% off a grab, or projectile shouldn't be super viable. And I say this as a Mario/Doc main
 

SwagGuy99

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Bowser is combo food for Mario, though. He's combo food for everyone, but for Mario, he's like a combo delicatessen.
Again, I may be overestimating Bowser here but for Mario to combo Bowser, he has to land a hit which can be hard for the reasons I already listed and because Mario's range is really bad.

Edit: With all of the Dr. Mario talk, I agree that he doesn't need many changes to be a high tier. The best change that I can think of would be a fun call back to Melee and the change I propose is to make his air speed faster. As in faster than Mario's (like it was in Melee). It's a fun callback to Melee and it would indirectly improve his recovery as well without overhauling individual moves. That's the only change I think that he really needs to be a very good character TBH and this change is a lot simpler than buffing his recovery moves, up-b, ground speed, damage multipliers, etc.
 
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Daisycakes

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Doc still got more than others. Let's be fair though, Doc is practically an echo with a separate number.
Not really. Echoes are really really close to their original characters. To the point where most of them are lumped together/ignored in tier lists due to predominantly visual changes or made niche by their superior counterparts.

Doctor Mario straight up goes against the definition of an echo (same overall speed, jumps and power as the original)
 
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The_Bookworm

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I would argue Doc's design and niche actually existing in this game is proof that he's been fixed given that it did not work at all in the previous game. IMO I think he's good as is but if they wanted to improve his performance I'd just say he needs a run speed increase relative to the rest of Ult's cast. He does run slightly faster but its by a far more marginal value than the general speed increase from 4 to Ult that most chars got, so tuning that up would probably be all I could suggest. He doesn't even need to be close to Mario's speed or anything, but maybe around D3's footspeed (which is where he was in the last game)

For perspective I like to compare him to Akatsuki from UNIST, including the fact that he has a fairly good reward fireball that's not particularly amazing for zoning. The fact that Doc is properly rewarded for winning neutral (I'd even argue rewarded incredibly high, the damage on his moves is insane) is a big step up from Smash 4.
His entire grounded mobility, while slightly improved directly, is way worse than everyone else's. In terms of run speed, he is still about the same position relative to the cast as in SSB4: bottom 7 is terms of run speed. However, his initial dash is now so much worse than everyone else's to the point where it is the absolute worse one in the game (his initial dash value is 1.5375712, and Olimar's, who was long believed to be the worse one, is 1.606). His air mobility also got made directly worse from SSB4, while losing even more because everyone else's got better (being 45/58th in SSB4 to 71/78th in Ultimate).

So Dr. Mario got sort of the same treatment as Ryu and Mii Gunner in terms of mobility in comparison to everyone else's.
 

TTTTTsd

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His entire grounded mobility, while slightly improved directly, is way worse than everyone else's. In terms of run speed, he is still about the same position relative to the cast as in SSB4: bottom 7 is terms of run speed. However, his initial dash is now so much worse than everyone else's to the point where it is the absolute worse one in the game (his initial dash value is 1.5375712, and Olimar's, who was long believed to be the worse one, is 1.606). His air mobility also got made directly worse from SSB4, while losing even more because everyone else's got better (being 45/58th in SSB4 to 71/78th in Ultimate).

So Dr. Mario got sort of the same treatment as Ryu and Mii Gunner in terms of mobility in comparison to everyone else's.
Would say that's untrue, his run speed may posit him in a similar position, but it has net increased unlike Ryu's (which has also increased but has been given to Ken because reasons). No idea about Mii Gunner.

I was mostly commenting on how Doc's speed was relatively close to D3's in S4, whereas here there's a gap (Even though its received an increase, its in the small decimal points)
 

Cheryl~

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Echoing a lot of the statements above, Doc is a pretty decent character with some really good tools that's mainly bogged down by a really bad recovery and a bunch of smaller issues, mainly his poor mobility compared to the rest of the cast.

On the topic of uncommon characters, I've seen little to no representation of both :ultvillager: and :ultisabelle: in Ultimate so far. While Villager never had a very big playerbase in Smash 4 either, it just seems like the sole reps for him are Panda B-Air in the U.S. and kept in Japan now that Ranai's out of the picture. As for Isabelle, she has practically no high-level representation as of now, although some Villager players used her as a secondary at the beginning stages of the game. (I don't see many matchups where she does notably better than Villager in so it's reasonable as to why they've kept using Villager more.)

Of course this can be tied to the fact that in my opinion, both of them aren't very good characters in this game, Isabelle especially. They both struggle with shield pressure even though they were nerfed in this game because their grabs are still bad. The projectile nerfs in 3.0 don't help them out either. I also feel like their (well, Villager's) camping games aren't as strong in this game and it feels a lot easier to break their zone and put them into bad positions. Other bad things include Villager's godlike jab from Smash 4 being turned into an ordinary rapid jab that does pitiful damage for a rapid jab, and Isabelle's Lloid mines and Fishing Rod having glitches that prevent them from working as consistently as they should. Isabelle in particular just feels unfinished, and the developer's attempt at creating a trap-based character falls apart when her mines aren't even that good or powerful in the first place. They can combo into Up-Air, sure, but it'd be a lot more useful if they started killing at percentages lower than 140 on most characters. She just doesn't seem to have anything particularly good about her, which makes her a lot worse than Villager in my opinion because Villager has some legitimately crazy moves in Bowling Ball and Lloid Rocket that allow him to feel a little more threatening and complements his type of character, respectively. Overall I think both Villager and Isabelle kind of suffer in the current climate of Ultimate and outside of being a niche counterpick to some higher-tiered characters I don't see either of them succeeding very much unless their representation/metagames receive a big level-up in the future.

What do you guys think of these two characters? And why did I write a whole paragraph about Isabelle and Villager?!
 

Arthur97

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Not really. Echoes are really really close to their original characters. To the point where most of them are lumped together/ignored in tier lists due to predominantly visual changes or made niche by their superior counterparts.

Doctor Mario straight up goes against the definition of an echo (same overall speed, jumps and power as the original)
Ken has different move speed (and several different moves like Doc). Lucina and Chrom have entirely different damage distributions. In fact, at least Chrom and Lucina will likely have separate tier spots just like Doc (and Lucina has not been made niche by Marth, nor has Chrom or Roy soundly proven superior to the other). I would imagine Ken would too, but people have said they actually play more similar than Chrom and Lucina do to their originals. Also, just look at the fact that his different stats are mostly the result of equipment modifiers combined with his placement in 4, and you can see Doc is cut from the same budget cloth.
 
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The_Bookworm

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Echoing a lot of the statements above, Doc is a pretty decent character with some really good tools that's mainly bogged down by a really bad recovery and a bunch of smaller issues, mainly his poor mobility compared to the rest of the cast.

On the topic of uncommon characters, I've seen little to no representation of both :ultvillager: and :ultisabelle: in Ultimate so far. While Villager never had a very big playerbase in Smash 4 either, it just seems like the sole reps for him are Panda B-Air in the U.S. and kept in Japan now that Ranai's out of the picture. As for Isabelle, she has practically no high-level representation as of now, although some Villager players used her as a secondary at the beginning stages of the game. (I don't see many matchups where she does notably better than Villager in so it's reasonable as to why they've kept using Villager more.)

Of course this can be tied to the fact that in my opinion, both of them aren't very good characters in this game, Isabelle especially. They both struggle with shield pressure even though they were nerfed in this game because their grabs are still bad. The projectile nerfs in 3.0 don't help them out either. I also feel like their (well, Villager's) camping games aren't as strong in this game and it feels a lot easier to break their zone and put them into bad positions. Other bad things include Villager's godlike jab from Smash 4 being turned into an ordinary rapid jab that does pitiful damage for a rapid jab, and Isabelle's Lloid mines and Fishing Rod having glitches that prevent them from working as consistently as they should. Isabelle in particular just feels unfinished, and the developer's attempt at creating a trap-based character falls apart when her mines aren't even that good or powerful in the first place. They can combo into Up-Air, sure, but it'd be a lot more useful if they started killing at percentages lower than 140 on most characters. She just doesn't seem to have anything particularly good about her, which makes her a lot worse than Villager in my opinion because Villager has some legitimately crazy moves in Bowling Ball and Lloid Rocket that allow him to feel a little more threatening and complements his type of character, respectively. Overall I think both Villager and Isabelle kind of suffer in the current climate of Ultimate and outside of being a niche counterpick to some higher-tiered characters I don't see either of them succeeding very much unless their representation/metagames receive a big level-up in the future.

What do you guys think of these two characters? And why did I write a whole paragraph about Isabelle and Villager?!
Villy is alright, and as a character about the same power level as in SSB4, but is suffering from both powercreep and low representation.

Isabelle straight feels like, similar to what you said, an unfinished mess. Has moves like jab that feel undertuned, and her main moves aren't too good either. Fishing Rod is good at edgeguarding, but suffers quite a bit from everything else thanks to a relatively reactable startup and being instantly canceled through merely shielding (an easy punish). Want a Snake Grenade that is much slower to set-up, easier to avoid, easier to deal with (canceling out the move doesn't really do anything to the attacker), and doesn't really offer much better reward: the Lloid Trap is for you.

I really wish Isabelle is a better character because she is such an interesting character design. I just need to avoid online the first week after she gets buffed :p.
 
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SwagGuy99

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What do you guys think of these two characters? And why did I write a whole paragraph about Isabelle and Villager?!
:ultvillager: might actually fit the honest/fair & balanced fighter archetype that :pit:/:4pit:/:4darkpit: has been filling for the past two games.

He has some really good things (good projectiles, recovery, range, attack power) with some not so great things (poor combo potential, average frame data, horrible speed, doesn't benefit from new mechanics in Ultimate). I'd argue that Villager is a decent high mid tier character in a similar way to :4pit:/:4darkpit:.

:ultisabelle:, on the other hand, takes some of Villagers better moves and trades them for really bad ones. Here's some of the more obvious examples:

  • Down smash doesn't bury and has very low knockback removing potential for setups into powerful attacks.
  • F-smash is still powerful but lacks the range or versatility of Villagers.
  • Up-b is slightly worse and Isabelle falls a slight bit slower meaning that she is juggled easier than Villager.
  • Side-b is a command grab that is vulnerable to shields and (despite being powerful) has a lot of lag if it misses. It lacks the shield pressuring and camping potential of Villager's side-b. Both Isabelle's and Villager's can be used to mix up recoveries, however, Villager's travels farther.
  • Up-smash is actually probably better on Isabelle as it is not a multi-hit as is f-air and b-air because they can hit shorter opponents easier. Her air, walk, and dash speeds are also a bit better. Don't worry though I'm not done trashing on Isabelle.
  • Down-b can be ran/jumped over by a lot of characters, stopped by projectiles and be reflected. Because of this, the move is basically useless. Villager's down-b can still be reflected, but it has a lot more versatility in just about every area and is harder for the opponent to work around because it lacks most of the weaknesses of Isabelle's. Isabelle's down-b also kills much later.
  • Isabelle is lighter than Villager which causes her to die earlier.
So, in conclusion, Isabelle is definitely a low tier character. She trades Villager's versatile moveset, better recovery higher kill potential, and increased weight for slightly higher speed attributes. This trade-off doesn't really seem worth it to me. At least Dr. Mario gets to keep some of Mario's better attributes and does have some better moves than Mario's, but here, almost all of Villager's better attributes are gone completely.

Edit: Jab is also worse. Villager's went from being very very good in Smash 4 to pretty good in Ultimate. A bit of a downgrade but not too bad. Isabelle's is a basically broken move though that serves almost no purpose in most situations.

Also, up-tilt doesn't kill for Isabelle. It can combo into itself at low %'s but doesn't do much else.

The common theme here seems to be that killing is one of Isabelle's biggest weaknesses while Villager can usually kill pretty easily.
 
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Repli.Cant

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:ultisabelle: is essentially :4bowserjr: in that there are ideas, however they are executed so poorly that it leaves the character as an unfinished mess.

:ultisabelle:'s smash attacks aren't very good and losing Bowling Ball in exchange for Fishing Rod isn't a good trade, as Fishing Rod will send them upwards where they can recover high meaning you can't use it again to keep up the pressure, as opposed to Bowling Ball which kills very early, and if it doesn't kill, sends more horizontally to pressure with tree, f/bair, Lloid Rocket, etc.
:ultisabelle:'s Lloid Trap is a barely functioning move. Some characters can run right over it before it activates, and is just generally so much less of a threatening move than :ultvillager:'s tree. The tree at least grants access to the axe, which is a potent frame 6 kill move.

Honestly I'm just finding it difficult to use this character at all. If there are any :ultisabelle: players here to inform me on what she does better than :ultvillager: then please enlighten me. Otherwise... I just don't see a point to her existence in this game.
 

SwagGuy99

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Honestly I'm just finding it difficult to use this character at all. If there are any :ultisabelle: players here to inform me on what she does better than :ultvillager: then please enlighten me. Otherwise... I just don't see a point to her existence in this game.
I'm not an Isabelle main but I addressed the few things she does do better in a previous post but I can sum it up here. She's a bit faster in most areas, up-smash isn't a multi-hit, and f-air and b-air can hit smaller opponents a little bit easier. Literally everything else is worse (I addressed all of this in my earlier post).

This is how I see it (taken from my previous post)

So, in conclusion, Isabelle is definitely a low tier character. She trades Villager's versatile moveset, better recovery higher kill potential, and increased weight for slightly higher speed attributes. This trade-off doesn't really seem worth it to me. At least Dr. Mario gets to keep some of Mario's better attributes and does have some better moves than Mario's, but here, almost all of Villager's better attributes are gone completely.
 
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Surprised he put Zelda as even.
How times have changed :3.

(Too bad Mario isn't as prominent as before)
To be fair, compared to a lot of the previous Smash 4 top tiers, Mario has it pretty good lol But I imagine a lot of characters have gotten better, so he doesn't dominate lower tier characters as much as he did previously. Zelda's a pretty good example of that, since she's pretty much lightyears ahead of any of her counterparts in this game.
 

DelugeFGC

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At least Mac is capable of SOMETIMES posing a threat in certain MU's / on certain stages. Isabelle is never a character I worry over.

When I fight a Mac, in or outside of tournament, I still give the character a lot of respect because I know despite his MANY problems he can still pull a win out of his ass by armoring through moves and punishing any greedy / stupid approaches or decisions I make. Mac has ALL the odds against him. but it's still POSSIBLE for him to win.

Isabelle I just think "Ah this one's free". Not even joking, Isabelle just has.. nothing, good about her at all. The fishing rod is the closest thing.. a command grab you can SHIELD.. oh the irony.
 
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Roguewolf

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That's fair man and I honestly kinda want to belive it because I love punch out but I'm still not sure because isabelle does have some of villagers moves which are still fairly good I just think she is heavily overshadowed by villager himself/or herself
So low tier but to me not little mac tier
(Please buff mac)
 
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DelugeFGC

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I think Mac could actually be a solid mid-tier if given the correct buffs, though his design principle alone does kind of keep him away from the upper echelons of the tier list no matter what you do.. short of making him outright busted that is.
 

The_Bookworm

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I think Mac could actually be a solid mid-tier if given the correct buffs, though his design principle alone does kind of keep him away from the upper echelons of the tier list no matter what you do.. short of making him outright busted that is.
A few fixes imo:

1) Make his first jump reach the side platforms.
2) Down tilt's combo utility and up tilt's KO confirm utility returned.
3) Make sure his side B doesn't get Brawl Pit up B'ed anymore (can use it again after getting hit out of it).
4) Fix forward tilt's two hits.

With these fixes, his offstage weakness won't be as atrocious, and his onstage game will be more threatening, although he will still have his classic Mac weaknesses.
 

DelugeFGC

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A few fixes imo:

1) Make his first jump reach the side platforms.
2) Down tilt's combo utility and up tilt's KO confirm utility returned.
3) Make sure his side B doesn't get Brawl Pit up B'ed anymore (can use it again after getting hit out of it).
4) Fix forward tilt's two hits.

With these fixes, his offstage weakness won't be as atrocious, and his onstage game will be more threatening, although he will still have his classic Mac weaknesses.
If you could do all of this, give his Up-B just a bit more vertical gain while also making it harder to interrupt / punish (make the hitbox bigger, armor.. something like that) AND give BAir and UAir alone a bit more utility.. he'd actually be a pretty damned good mid tier. Like if you just upped the oomph of BAir, gave UAir a slightly larger hitbox and made it to where he could at least get SOME reward out of catching someone with it or landing a very brief (like two hits) juggle.. well as I said before.

NAir I think is actually pretty decent, if you upped the % output on it alone it'd be a good aerial. FAir and DAir can stay horrible, I just think if BAir had some kill power / % reward and if UAir could potentially at least land brief juggles / reward you for catching jumps or something.. Mac would resemble an actual character.

It's basically impossible to turn Mac into anything resembling a high tier, let alone a top tier, without making something about him laughably busted / OP.. but I do think with the right tweaks he could at LEAST be somewhat viable. He'll never be amazing imo, though.. no matter what. I do think turning his Neutral B special into a Star Punch type move that replaced KO Punch entirely (build up stars like you build up KO punch, 3 stars is a KO Punch just like the games, otherwise you can expend one star for a very power quick-FSmash like punch or something, or maybe hold up after pressing B to do a quick USmash style uppercut.. that sort of thing) he'd benefit a lot from that too.
 
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I think Mac could actually be a solid mid-tier if given the correct buffs, though his design principle alone does kind of keep him away from the upper echelons of the tier list no matter what you do.. short of making him outright busted that is.
I already made a post about this earlier in the thread.

It's completely possible to make :ultlittlemac: a fairly tasteful high tier.

Examples:
-Fix all his moves to link and hit correctly.
-Revert his old grounded Side-B distance.
-Allow him to get his Side-B back after being hit like in Sm4sh.
-Slightly increase his full hop &/or double jump height.
-Reduce the endlag on aerial KO Punch so it gives him a horizontal recovery boost.
-Heavily reduce the endlag on fully charged Neutral-B.
-A high damaging &/or decently threatening kill throw.

He doesn't need to be entirely polarizing to make a splash in the meta.
 

DelugeFGC

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I'm not entirely sure he could ever be high tier even with all those buffs, he simply lacks the gameplan to 'make a splash in the meta' as you say, he's too simple and he lacks the range and options that make high / top tiers in this game. He could still be viable, though.
 

Daisycakes

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Ken has different move speed (and several different moves like Doc). Lucina and Chrom have entirely different damage distributions. In fact, at least Chrom and Lucina will likely have separate tier spots just like Doc (and Lucina has not been made niche by Marth, nor has Chrom or Roy soundly proven superior to the other). I would imagine Ken would too, but people have said they actually play more similar than Chrom and Lucina do to their originals. Also, just look at the fact that his different stats are mostly the result of equipment modifiers combined with his placement in 4, and you can see Doc is cut from the same budget cloth.
Ken has different move speed (10% faster to be exact) on the ground. In most cases it's not really to noticeable except in long straightaway paths. His air speed, and fall speed however, are completely identical. Many of his attacks have identical damage and knockback values.

Chrom and Lucina have weighted average dmaage and knockback values, and they have quite a few identical functioning attacks (Counter, Dolphin Slash, Flare Blade, Chrom's Up Smash, Throws). The basic functions of their moves are the same as Marth/Roy's.

Dr Mario has considerably higher damage output (many of his moves have increased damage outputs and tweaked knockback strengths even before the equipment is applied), and considerably worse mobility.


Dr Mario has a lot of similarites with Mario (he's the same person after all) but he has more standout gameplay differences than any of the echoes do.
To be fair, compared to a lot of the previous Smash 4 top tiers, Mario has it pretty good lol But I imagine a lot of characters have gotten better, so he doesn't dominate lower tier characters as much as he did previously. Zelda's a pretty good example of that, since she's pretty much lightyears ahead of any of her counterparts in this game.
After looking at her data, I still think Zelda's awful.
 
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Well, Zelda can't be too awful when she does that well with Ven and Mystearica (for example taking down Seagull Joe (either Wolf or Palutena afaik) in two sets with 2:0 and 2:1).
Dates are one thing, but do you know how to make her actually function?
 
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DelugeFGC

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Zelda is terrible on paper, but she keeps getting results that don't really leave a ton of room to say she's anything less than mid-tier at the end of the day. So either Zelda is much better than we think, or she's punching holes in the current meta and nobody can deal with her properly yet.
 
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Zelda is terrible on paper, but she keeps getting results that don't really leave a ton of room to say she's anything less than mid-tier at the end of the day. So either Zelda is much better than we think, or she's punching holes in the current meta and nobody can deal with her properly yet.
I mean, the problem with the argument that she has results is exactly what you said.
Ven's pretty much dominating his local scene but only when FOW (Wasn't he one of the best Sm4sh players as well?; I didn't follow Sm4sh at all) isn't there. So if that's the case that she has to be figured out then his local scene should've caught up by now. So we'll see what Smash 'n Splash has to offer for her.
I still think that she doesn't really need that good framedata for her gameplan (staying behind phantom and Din's fire. Make it better in some way and you'll eat fair and bairs constantly and these are the two strongest aerials besides Falcon's knee as far as I'm concerned.
She has some other problems: Nair (apparently, I don't see it because people never fall out of my nairs when I follow the attack), Dtilt knockback angle and the rather slow running speed. One thing that could change her viability is too make Din's fire either move faster or let it cancel by shielding.
 

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Past while there's been some discussion on two characters I have at least some knowledge on but was on vacation so I'll just give my thoughts now.

With Isabelle, I agree she's likely low tier. She has a Pikachu-esque jab (a single hit that can be repeated over and over) but it doesn't trip to my knowledge and it doesn't set up into things like Chroy's or even just knock far away to make her safe. It's like having Samus' jab1 alone. Tilts and dash attack are relatively fine.

Grab has really pitiful range for a tether grab which makes shielding against her super easy to do, furthered by fishing rod not beating it and the nerf her fair and bair got. Having projectile aerials isn't all that great either. Over the past week, I had a match with my sparring buddy where I had him offstage and drifted towards him with a fair and he hit the pellet with Falcon's dair which put him in hitlag, extending the duration of the move and since I was drifting towards him, hoping to hit and continue the edgeguard, I got hit by the dair and died for it.

Uair and dair are fine disjointed aerials and nair is frame 3 and knocks away. Pocket is probably more useful as a psuedo-airdodge than for actually deterring outcamping her.

Fishing rod got changed in the 3.0.0 patch from what I heard so when she reels back in, there's no grab box but instead there's a constant one while it's airborne. Sets up for free 2 framing if you space it right but means if you miss on the ground, the whole reeling in is nothing but massive endlag.

Balloon Trip is a fine recovery in terms of distance but she has nothing to protect herself, it moves slow and it runs on fuel similar to R.O.B.'s recovery so if you just keep hitting her away, she eventually can't make it back.

And then there's Lloid Trap. There are so many things wrong with this move. It can only be planted while grounded, it takes almost a full second to be able to act after planting it (58 frames iirc), it only lasts around 30 seconds, it just poofs away without a hitbox unlike Snake's grenades and C4, Duck Hunt's can and the bombs of the Links, it doesn't kill till really late, it can be destroyed by hitboxes and has rather low health, it explodes when destroyed and the explosion can hurt Isabelle, fast enough characters can just run past the mine without getting hurt (I'll likely lab this out to find out who exactly is fast enough), you can dash back right before reaching the mine with some characters and that can set it off without harming you, it can be shielded and it doesn't connect as well when planted on slants. Buffing this one move would do wonders for her imo as if it lasted longer and was more threatening then an Isabelle in the lead, camping behind a mine would be actually threatening.

Oh and her smash attacks are all meh. Dsmash is pretty weak but has a good angle at least, kinda like Puff's dsmash. Fsmash has alright power and nothing else and usmash is awful. Doesn't cover above her but rather in front of her, isn't that powerful and doesn't even reach Battlefield platforms. It's basically Palutena's usmash but in all ways worse.

As for Mii Brawler, I'd still like to believe he's not low tier but I doubt many will pick him which means low amount of results and I won't be able to consistently go to tournaments until next year and I might not even use him since I prefer Chrom and Link.

I go with the general opinion for neutral special, going with Shotput since it's his only projectile and the only neutral special that allows for breversing and wavebouncing. It's pretty powerful too and does a better job edgeguarding than his aerials do. Flashing Mach Punch can stall in the air once and has good power and Exploding Side Kick also has good power and has super armor but they just don't compare to the versatility Shotput has.

I still prefer Onslaught as a side special since it has the most range and kills around 100% from the ground. Makes catching landings rather easy. Suplex is a command grab which is nice but it has terrible range and if used as a recovery, it can be intercepted to force Brawler to die and some characters can still make it back after. The damage is nice but I'm of the opinion that Brawler shouldn't just be focusing for super high damage output since while I haven't had the chance to test it too well, I believe he does have kill confirms which would require specific percent ranges. Burning Dropkick is the best for recovery since it doesn't put him in helpless after and it can kill (just later than Onslaught) and it's safer on shield than Onslaught due to the bounce back Brawler does. I might consider using BDK if I ever run into an mu where Feint Jump plus whatever up special I use isn't enough to save getting consistently gimped.

I prefer Helicopter Kick for my up special since it has the most kill power and from what I've tested, nair, fair1 and uair seem to be able to lead into it at percents that can kill. It also has intangibility on the legs so it's not entirely free to edgeguard. I see people praise Soaring Axe Kick for its ability to suicide kill but even as a Chrom main, I don't see the appeal to it. It's only worth going for if you're equal or ahead in stocks (I don't recall anyone mentioning it getting nerfed like Ike and Chrom's up b were) and as long as your opponent knows about the suicide kill option, they should be able to play around it. It does offer better vertical distance than Helicopter Kick, equal to that of Thrust Uppercut and it reaches its apex faster than TU. Speaking of Thrust Uppercut, it's basically a worse version of Mario's Super Jump Punch. Comes out frame 3, can be angled to go more vertically or horizontally but it doesn't go as far.

Down special, I still prefer Feint Jump. It's not as good as ZSS' Flip Jump but it's an additional movement option that the other two down specials don't offer. And on Battlefield at least, there's a number of mixup options with it between kicking to land on the top platform or a side platform or in between or not kicking at all and going through the platforms and the window for when a kick can be input is really generous. Head-On Assault I again see get praised for the suicide kill option, this time onstage but I'm not fond of the idea of suicide kills since I'd rather keep as many stocks as possible. Counter Throw has generous endlag and power for a counter but it's still just a counter. It requires making a read and it has other issues other counters don't like not working on projectiles or disjoints or any hit at the feet.

End result is me still preferring 1122 with the possibility of switching over to 1222.

As for the rest of Brawler's kit, I personally find him rather aerial reliant. Nair, fair1 and uair can all lead into other moves at low to mid and high percents. Close dtilt and dthrow can lead to aerials at low percents, ftilt can cause tech chases, dash attack forces opponents into the air. Jab is just decent damage and utilt is pretty standard, not as combo friendly as Mario's from what I've noticed. Brawler lacks any sort of kill throw including Suplex so whether you have it or not, opponents can shield rather freely against Brawler either way. Fsmash is basically a heavies fsmash with all the power, startup and endlag it has. Dsmash is decently powerful and good for tech chasing though it hits high so it can't be used for 2 framing or hitting anyone that stalls on the ledge and usmash is a weaker Fox usmash. Nair, uair and fair aren't too powerful even offstage/near the top border. Dair has decent strength but long startup and bair is the best killing aerial but still not that strong. With such weak aerials, Brawler is usually better off staying on stage and throwing Shotputs than going offstage to edgeguard though I suppose if you use BDK then you can edgeguard with that.

Odds are, if Brawler doesn't work out too well for me, I'll switch focus over to Mario or Doc as I like having access to a character with faster frame data than what Chrom offers.
 

StoicPhantom

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 11, 2018
Messages
395
To be honest, I think Little Mac can be a good character, while still retaining his bad aerial game and disadvantage. The dev team just needs to grow a spine and actually make his ground game overwhelming and not be afraid of community backlash.

Make all of his Smash attacks and specials stronger, in terms of knockback. This should prevent heavier characters from beating him in a war of attrition and make his Up-B a proper anti-air.

Revert his KO Punch's forward range and endlag to Smash 4 levels and make it so that he can't be knocked out of it. Opponents shouldn't be able to neuter it, by projectile or aerial camping. This should prevent shield and ledge camping, while making landings a little riskier for the opponent, not to mention the pressure and mind games it would bring in neutral. This might make him overly rely on it, but that too could be considered balancing, since he would have to conserve this precious resource and couldn't throw it out willy nilly. This should set up a proper 50-50 and make it so that a successful hit would give him a considerable lead and a whiff, gives his opponent a considerable lead, given he needs to take a fair amount of damage to even obtain it and Mac's already at kill percent, before his gauge is even half filled.

Combining his lightweight with that atrocious of a disadvantage, leads to some of the most ridiculous gimps I've ever seen and from things no other character really has to worry about. I think the above buffs are pretty fair, given that reality. I fear though, he has long since been relegated to unbuffable status, due to fear of backlash, so will likely stay with Bayonetta in perpetual obscurity.

It’s the early meta game, Zelda has always done reasonably well in the early meta of all games she’s been in. Only to end up being one of the worst characters later. I expect no less this time around. Early meta Zelda is a meme at this point...
Define "reasonably well." Did she place high in super majors and dominate locals for several months after release? There was early hype, but it quickly dissipated, but Ven and Mystearica seem to be doing well regardless.

I've seen lots of naysaying from you and other posters, but have also seen some characters that lack results like Shulk, being hyped for future potential. There aren't very many characters I can recall, placing high in super majors or doing well in stacked locals like Vegas. And yet these characters are consistently rated higher than Zelda, despite lack of results.

It's one thing to be skeptical of future potential, especially when current results contradict that. It's an entirely different thing to believe in the future potential of a character being bad, especially when current results contradict that. Unlike other characters, Zelda did get a complete revamp on one of her specials and got the rest of her moveset buffed. People are putting Ganon in high tier, just because he got a sword and his Nair is got buffed. And the only person that has really used him at a high level is Nairo and his results have been inconsistent at best. Zelda has better results than Ganon, so why is Ganon ranked significantly higher?

I'd like to see an actual reason for this, not it happened in other games, with completely different engines and movesets, so it definitely will happen this time. Characters have risen and fallen in between Smash iterations, because engine changes have benefited or hurt them. Not to mention there haven't been many characters that have gotten aspects about them entirely redesigned.

Until that happens, I can only conclude this to be another reason for why tier lists are crafted on perception, not any sort of objective basis, like they're made out to be.
 

Arthur97

Smash Champion
Joined
Jun 7, 2016
Messages
2,306
Ken has different move speed (10% faster to be exact) on the ground. In most cases it's not really to noticeable except in long straightaway paths. His air speed, and fall speed however, are completely identical. Many of his attacks have identical damage and knockback values.

Chrom and Lucina have weighted average dmaage and knockback values, and they have quite a few identical functioning attacks (Counter, Dolphin Slash, Flare Blade, Chrom's Up Smash, Throws). The basic functions of their moves are the same as Marth/Roy's.

Dr Mario has considerably higher damage output (many of his moves have increased damage outputs and tweaked knockback strengths even before the equipment is applied), and considerably worse mobility.


Dr Mario has a lot of similarites with Mario (he's the same person after all) but he has more standout gameplay differences than any of the echoes do.


After looking at her data, I still think Zelda's awful.
His differences may stand out more, but he's still very much a clone. Not a semi-clone. He's a clone with a little more effort than most, but still low effort (and why of the three clones Doc is the one they decided to give a bit more love to is just bizarre). Some of his moves have different attributes, but that's not unheard of (Ken and Ryu's side special for example) and three (back throw, dair, and down special) different moves which is also not unheard of (soaring slash). Having different damage and speed doesn't make him not a Mario rip off. Especially when he shared the same hurtbox. Besides, deciding who is and who is not an echo is not an exact science as they decided not to turn Isabelle into a straight echo because they have "drastically" different proportions and personalities...even though similar things could be said about almost every echo (and their proportions are pretty similar).

But I digress. Doc is low effort if his multipliers are anything to go by. Just try and deny it like insisting Marth is the best of the Marth derivatives.
 
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To be honest, I think Little Mac can be a good character, while still retaining his bad aerial game and disadvantage. The dev team just needs to grow a spine and actually make his ground game overwhelming and not be afraid of community backlash.

Make all of his Smash attacks and specials stronger, in terms of knockback. This should prevent heavier characters from beating him in a war of attrition and make his Up-B a proper anti-air.

Revert his KO Punch's forward range and endlag to Smash 4 levels and make it so that he can't be knocked out of it. Opponents shouldn't be able to neuter it, by projectile or aerial camping. This should prevent shield and ledge camping, while making landings a little riskier for the opponent, not to mention the pressure and mind games it would bring in neutral. This might make him overly rely on it, but that too could be considered balancing, since he would have to conserve this precious resource and couldn't throw it out willy nilly. This should set up a proper 50-50 and make it so that a successful hit would give him a considerable lead and a whiff, gives his opponent a considerable lead, given he needs to take a fair amount of damage to even obtain it and Mac's already at kill percent
iiirc K.O Punch has less end lag now than it did in 4 but making it so he can't be hit out of it is completely wrong way to go about making him better. People already camp platform the moment he gets K.O punch because that's what your supposed to do, letting him hold it until he uses it will just amplify this camping tenfold. The character already is at a disadvantage because of the existence of a platform why would I engage him when he has a move that will beat out shield, attack and reaches a fair bit forward and kill me at 30 instead of playing it safe on that platform?

His Up B isn't an effective anti air because of its current power, it's not effective because it doesn't travel far, only hits directly above him and puts him in freefall afterwords. His Up smash and Up tilt work perfectly fine as an anti air. Making his smashes do more damage won't change much either because it doesn't fix the inherent fatal flaw with his character design. This is a character who isn't designed for platform fighters in a platform fighter.

Remember the game isn't created with one v one balanced platform layouts, the game is also designed for all the various game modes you and stage layouts you can have. On a walk off or low platform layout stage, Mac is perfectly fine. In the mess of four player chaos Mac is great given how he can just flick the C-Stick to great affect. What damns Mac the hardest is that the competitive rule set gives us stages that completely expose his extreme design choice's major flaws. You can make his ground game be the best in the game, all it's going to do is make people camp harder if they can't outright contest it anymore because of how hard he is shut down by that strategy and that's no fun for anyone.

Remember when Duck Hunt was legal in Smash 4. The character literally couldn't even reach top platform with a double jump (I don't even think he could with his Up b as well). A character who gets beat that bad by the stage selection screen simply can never be a good character.
 

Gearkeeper-8a

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 12, 2018
Messages
157
To be honest, I think Little Mac can be a good character, while still retaining his bad aerial game and disadvantage. The dev team just needs to grow a spine and actually make his ground game overwhelming and not be afraid of community backlash.

Make all of his Smash attacks and specials stronger, in terms of knockback. This should prevent heavier characters from beating him in a war of attrition and make his Up-B a proper anti-air.

Revert his KO Punch's forward range and endlag to Smash 4 levels and make it so that he can't be knocked out of it. Opponents shouldn't be able to neuter it, by projectile or aerial camping. This should prevent shield and ledge camping, while making landings a little riskier for the opponent, not to mention the pressure and mind games it would bring in neutral. This might make him overly rely on it, but that too could be considered balancing, since he would have to conserve this precious resource and couldn't throw it out willy nilly. This should set up a proper 50-50 and make it so that a successful hit would give him a considerable lead and a whiff, gives his opponent a considerable lead, given he needs to take a fair amount of damage to even obtain it and Mac's already at kill percent, before his gauge is even half filled.

Combining his lightweight with that atrocious of a disadvantage, leads to some of the most ridiculous gimps I've ever seen and from things no other character really has to worry about. I think the above buffs are pretty fair, given that reality. I fear though, he has long since been relegated to unbuffable status, due to fear of backlash, so will likely stay with Bayonetta in perpetual obscurity.


Define "reasonably well." Did she place high in super majors and dominate locals for several months after release? There was early hype, but it quickly dissipated, but Ven and Mystearica seem to be doing well regardless.

I've seen lots of naysaying from you and other posters, but have also seen some characters that lack results like Shulk, being hyped for future potential. There aren't very many characters I can recall, placing high in super majors or doing well in stacked locals like Vegas. And yet these characters are consistently rated higher than Zelda, despite lack of results.

It's one thing to be skeptical of future potential, especially when current results contradict that. It's an entirely different thing to believe in the future potential of a character being bad, especially when current results contradict that. Unlike other characters, Zelda did get a complete revamp on one of her specials and got the rest of her moveset buffed. People are putting Ganon in high tier, just because he got a sword and his Nair is got buffed. And the only person that has really used him at a high level is Nairo and his results have been inconsistent at best. Zelda has better results than Ganon, so why is Ganon ranked significantly higher?

I'd like to see an actual reason for this, not it happened in other games, with completely different engines and movesets, so it definitely will happen this time. Characters have risen and fallen in between Smash iterations, because engine changes have benefited or hurt them. Not to mention there haven't been many characters that have gotten aspects about them entirely redesigned.

Until that happens, I can only conclude this to be another reason for why tier lists are crafted on perception, not any sort of objective basis, like they're made out to be.
This community is very social media focused combined with the fact that top players has too much influence on people opinions, some players already hate some characters even if they are low tier like Mac, patching this game is very difficult not only because of the roster size but because of the game community, this is why bayo was nuked.
 

StoicPhantom

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 11, 2018
Messages
395
iiirc K.O Punch has less end lag now than it did in 4 but making it so he can't be hit out of it is completely wrong way to go about making him better. People already camp platform the moment he gets K.O punch because that's what your supposed to do, letting him hold it until he uses it will just amplify this camping tenfold. The character already is at a disadvantage because of the existence of a platform why would I engage him when he has a move that will beat out shield, attack and reaches a fair bit forward and kill me at 30 instead of playing it safe on that platform?
Does it? I might be remembering wrong, given I didn't play him that much in 4, but I've been fairly surprised on how easy a whiff with it can be punished in Ultimate and I don't remember that being the case in 4.

As for the rest, that really depends on who has the lead, how patient both players are, and what stage you're on. I also don't think it's as easy to platform camp in Ultimate, as it was in 4. Changes to disadvantage and shields, makes it dangerous to be above your opponent, no matter the context, and while I don't think it's easy, I think Little Mac can force opponents off stage better than before. And correct me if I'm wrong, but KO Punch has more vertical range now, which should mean it has a greater chance of hitting people above him, right? Other moves being able to hit above the platform, allows him to put more pressure there as well.

His Up B isn't an effective anti air because of its current power, it's not effective because it doesn't travel far, only hits directly above him and puts him in freefall afterwords. His Up smash and Up tilt work perfectly fine as an anti air. Making his smashes do more damage won't change much either because it doesn't fix the inherent fatal flaw with his character design. This is a character who isn't designed for platform fighters in a platform fighter.
Exactly how many anti-airs, don't hit directly above you? It travels far enough to catch DJs and should hit someone trying to jump OoS on platforms, shouldn't it? It might be a little more risky to do than others, but if it gets buffed to kill earlier than now, which it feels like even light characters are still living past 120%, it should discourage opponents from doing those options. Up-Smash and Up-Tilt don't prevent people from DJing over Little Mac, which is a big issue, especially in regards to landing KO Punch.

Remember when Duck Hunt was legal in Smash 4. The character literally couldn't even reach top platform with a double jump (I don't even think he could with his Up b as well). A character who gets beat that bad by the stage selection screen simply can never be a good character.
Well yeah, but I mean isn't that what counter picks and bans are for? Ban the stages that are impossible and pick stages that are more favorable. My original point was more about how I think the fundamental flaw, isn't disadvantage or lack of air game, but neutral. Mac has no real way to approach or force bad options. There's a reason why shield camping the ledge and then back throwing Mac, is such a meme. He doesn't have any safe way to pressure shields and his grab rewards and ledge trapping are bad enough to make him throwing his opponent off stage, not very effective.

Contrary to his speed and frame data, I think Mac's design is better suited to a more campy reactive play style. Timing super armor smash attacks and punishing bad options with specials, seems to be the more optimal play, but there isn't really anything Mac can do to make his opponent approach or trap them. He suffers similar to how Zelda used to, in that he's better suited for punishes and counters, but his opponent has no real need to approach most of the time.

If he gets the buffs I mentioned, then that problem should be diminished somewhat. Nothing sucks more in neutral, than getting an early lead on a Young Link, only for them to resort to ledge camping, spamming arrows, then DJing to the other side to repeat the process, until he gains the lead again. I feel if he had more anti-camping strategies and could kill earlier, he wouldn't have to worry about a war of attrition and if he has a superior neutral, his opponents won't get the lead that allows platform camping to be an effective strategy in the first place.
 
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:ultzelda: still has some of the same issues she's had in Smash 4; a majority of her aerials are still generally committal against opponents. She's terribly slow on the ground/air. She doesn't have many ground moves to throw out against opponents who are up in her grill. She's tall and light (though not to the same extent of characters like Rosalna), which is a recipe for dying pretty early.

But thanks to Phantom Armor and Din's Fire changes, she works a lot better now as a trapper-esque character. Phantom Armor in particular covers so much space for Zelda with its ludicrous range while Zelda herself can react to how the opponent responds to it. To be frank, it's pretty much everything :ultisabelle:'s Lloyd Mine wishes it could be.

Not even counting Phantom Armor, she's got a frame 6 OoS option that can kill very reliably, and her pivot grab gives :ultpalutena:'s a run for her money in terms of how absurd its range is; the latter in particular really helps against opponents that are trying to reach her while dancing around Phantom Armor.

I do expect her to be on the lower end of the cast, but I don't know how anyone can even call her awful with how well both Mystearica and Ven have been doing recently. Let's also not forget Ven's 17th placement at Prime Saga after taking out ESAM.

I ain't a Zelda main by the way, so anyone can feel free to correct me if I'm wrong lol
 
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Rizen

Smash Legend
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Messages
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:ultzelda:'s hard to fight because she has good tools but on a fundamentally weak character. Pretty much anything she does that pays off relies on outplaying the opponent. Nayru's is a great GTFO tool but has low reward. Din's relies on outsmarting the opponent with timing. Farow's is great if the opponent unsafely attacks her shield or unsafely tries to zone her. Phantom controls a lot of space and Zelda being able to act during the attack lets her frame trap. It also is a big commitment. Uair is basically Ivysaur's and just plain good. But her other aerials and attacks are best for punishing and can't really zone. Zelda is 'Frame Trap the Character'.

I see her as a mid or low mid tier. She can wreck you if she reads you right but can't force much unless you screw up.
 
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DunnoBro

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I think we may see her rise to middish tier, like Smash 4 Dedede and Duck Hunt as they perfected ledge traps.

She's VERY clearly designed to be a ledge trapper. Due to Din's Fire being low committal harassment, and Run-off Dair being her only notable edgeguard option. (With her upb ledge snap effectively covering the 2-frames of recovering opponents afterward to reduce the threat of reversal spikes for trying)

Phantom very efficiently forces an option within a certain timeframe. Making timing fair/bair more consistent (And I believe Phantom actually combos into it at times, when buffered)

Fsmash also HARD covers ledge jump/standard/rising options at ledge due to it's fat lingering frames. And 49 frames is about the same level of committment as Mario, Villager, and Fox Fsmash. (Obviously not covering ledge hang, but Phantom would do that)

OOS she has Pharore's Wind to beat roll/get-up attack/aggressive rising options to give her consistency at higher percents.

Of course, her mobility and inflexibility in neutral makes it less consistent throughout the cast. Meaning it's unlikely even if her ledge traps see a notable increase in efficiency, that she'll rise too high out of mid tier.
 
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StoicPhantom

Smash Journeyman
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Dec 11, 2018
Messages
395
I feel like people get a little too hung up on "correct ways" to play and overlook why characters are designed differently. Quite a lot of the time I hear talk about Zelda, not being able to safely spam aerials always comes up. I think people can overlook that characters can achieve the same things in different ways.

Palutena can take 50 off of Nair strings. Zelda can do the same, but using Up-Tilt, leading into Nair, Up-air, or Fair/Bair, depending on DI. Palutena can kill with Up-air, Bair, or even Nair, but only at high percents. Zelda can kill with Fair/Bair or Up-air earlier, but takes more precision and spacing. Obviously one is much easier to do than the other, but that really depends on what you want to do. I personally prefer characters that are harder to play and get more reward off of riskier moves. Palutena is easier, with less investment, but is a character I find boring to play, like a lot of top tiers. I love getting early kills off of reads, so I stick with Zelda, even if the disparity in ease, can be frustrating at times.

I also think people get confused at what being low tier, actually entails. It doesn't mean a difficult to play character, those have been staples in fighting games for a long time and have been high and low on tier lists. It means not being able to properly output the player's fundamentals(well to me anyways).

If we compare Ven's performance at Genesis to his later performance at Prime, it's a night and day difference. I feel like the difference was ultimately due to Zelda requiring more investment, than say the Ike that bodied him at Genesis. However, once he put the time in, he was able to do pretty well, while people have been dropping Ike. So, I don't think being harder to play, means being a bad character.

Ven's only losses at Prime were against top 10 PGR members. Mystearica had the unfortunate bracket placing, that lead to fighting Greninja, whom I believe to be one of, if not Zelda's worst MU and then went on to run a close set with Mr. E, whom was just recently sponsored. That to me, shows that Zelda can properly output both of those player's fundamentals, only losing to better players or design differences between characters. I don't think if either player, put the same investment in Little Mac, they would achieve similar results.

So I think it would ultimately depend on what you want from the character and how you want to play. If you want an easy character or one that would allow you to spam safe aerials, then Zelda is not for you. That does not however mean she is a low tier or bad character.

I personally believe she's high tier and I think Ven and Mystearica feel the same way.
 
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:ultzelda:'s hard to fight because she has good tools but on a fundamentally weak character. Pretty much anything she does that pays off relies on outplaying the opponent. Nayru's is a great GTFO tool but has low reward. Din's relies on outsmarting the opponent with timing. Farow's is great if the opponent unsafely attacks her shield or unsafely tries to zone her. Phantom controls a lot of space and Zelda being able to act during the attack lets her frame trap. It also is a big commitment. Uair is basically Ivysaur's and just plain good. But her other aerials and attacks are best for punishing and can't really zone. Zelda is 'Frame Trap the Character'.

I see her as a mid or low mid tier. She can wreck you if she reads you right but can't force much unless you screw up.
About the aerials: You aren't supposed to throw them out like you do with Lucina. Fair/bair are mostly used OoS. If the sour spot had knockback then it'd be a really good aerial but it can still hit characters that want to combo her, including Palu for example. Watching Ven's Zelda against TLTC and the Palus at his local (Grandmaster, Edgar) pretty much show how her aerials should be used.
Nair is a pretty good follow up after dThrow (if she gets one), but it is also a slight disjoint which helps a lot. People complain that people fall out of it, but i can't see that (I repeat myself there).
Her dair is an insane spike because the hitbox of the sourspot lingers for a very long time. It's kinda hard to get the sweetspotbut most of the times the sourspot is very much all you need.
Uair, in my personal experience, is actually her worst aerial. It doesn't do that much. It's not really good for juggling and you have ton of lag for pretty much no reward. It's only used when you are sure you intercept another character's movement but it's bad otherwise.
EDIT: I forgot that you can use UpAir below the ledge before recovering. It puts preassure at the player edgeguarding and the hitbox is rather big and can kill.

Anyway, I still stand by what I said: She's the most defensive character and she doesn't really need the framedata of other characters. Phantom is good for pressure and it secures her space. Yes, you can jump over it but if you get hit when charging the phantom then it's the player that messed up. After all, you can shield when it's completed or use Nayru, muffling the approach. She still needs optimazation, though, that's for sure.
I personally believe she's high tier and I think Ven and Mystearica feel the same way.
Shortly after Pound, Mystearica said she's at least high-tier. I don't know if I would go that high, but eh. The players sporting her are definitely having hope if not more for her.

Anyway, Smash 'n Splash coming soon. Then we'll see if Ven's performance at Genesis or at Prime Saga is closer to reality.
 
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StoicPhantom

Smash Journeyman
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Dec 11, 2018
Messages
395
Uair, in my personal experience, is actually her worst aerial. It doesn't do that much. It's not really good for juggling and you have ton of lag for pretty much no reward. It's only used when you are sure you intercept another character's movement but it's bad otherwise.
While you can juggle with the correct DI reads, I think it is best for punishes like most of her moves. Think catching DJs, forced by Phantom or punishing high recoveries, platform pressure, or catching jumps OoS on platforms. Jumps OoS and DJs over Phantom, are some of my most frequent uses of it. I often get a kill with the latter, once a game. I think it's actually one of her more versatile moves, given how much your opponent is going to be spending disadvantage, with optimal Zelda play(due to her insane knockback).

Shortly after Pound, Mystearica said she's at least high-tier. I don't know if I would go that high, but eh. The players sporting her are definitely having hope if not more for her.
Well, for me personally, I've played Zelda since she was first introduced and mained a mid tier in 4(Robin). I know how both of those tiers feel and Zelda doesn't feel that low. Take from that what you will. And if it means anything, Mystearica did place second at Bourbon, next to Darkshad.
 
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