Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

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DunnoBro

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ZSS is one of the very privileged few who can both go mega deep for edgeguards, without sacrificing potent ledge traps due to Flip Kick very heavily threatening high recoveries on her way back, and instant ledge get-ups.

She just doesn't need grab combos.

I will say though, her consistency does suffer without more reward off grab. Especially at low percent. Uthrow is clearly her 'damage' throw at a respectable 12% (For reference, a Mario Dthrow > single Uair only does 14%)

And it'd be great in matchups where edge/ledgeguarding is less valuable than pure damage and being under the opponent. (Chus, Sheik, Bayo, etc)

But the endlag is so crazy. Her potential for landing traps is only even feasible at higher percents when the other throws are more reliably forcing them to grab ledge anyway.

I'd definitely say an endlag reduction might be in order (nothing to enable combos or 50/50s though), as well as a power boost to let it kill at slightly lower, but not ridiculous percents. (160% sounds fair)
 
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ZSS is one of the very privileged few who can both go mega deep for edgeguards, without sacrificing potent ledge traps due to Flip Kick very heavily threatening high recoveries on her way back, and instant ledge get-ups.

She just doesn't need grab combos.

I will say though, her consistency does suffer without more reward off grab. Especially at low percent. Uthrow is clearly her 'damage' throw at a respectable 12% (For reference, a Mario Dthrow > single Uair only does 14%)

And it'd be great in matchups where edge/ledgeguarding is less valuable than pure damage and being under the opponent. (Chus, Sheik, Bayo, etc)

But the endlag is so crazy. Her potential for landing traps is only even feasible at higher percents when the other throws are more reliably forcing them to grab ledge anyway.

I'd definitely say an endlag reduction might be in order (nothing to enable combos or 50/50s though), as well as a power boost to let it kill at slightly lower, but not ridiculous percents. (160% sounds fair)
Sounds reasonable imo. Something like that or raise the damage of the throw further to 16%. The endlag is just silly the way it is now.
 
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DelugeTN

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What is the overall impression of Dr. Mario :ultdoc:? My thoughts on the character are extremely polarizing.

On one hand he has pretty impressive combo game, very good damage output, a FAir that functions pretty similar to C. Falcon's knee in terms of how it plays into his overall kit (DAir > FAir at high % is even a kill confirm on Doc, just like with Cap), Dr Tornado is amazing for getting easy kills when you manage to catch recoveries with it, the cape.. Doc has a lot going for him.. like that BThrow.

Then you die at super low %'s a bunch of times because his recovery is like WTF Tier bad and then he just feels like a Low Tier. Seriously, WHY is Doc's recovery so poor? The vertical gain on Super Jump Punch doesn't even make sense, it's almost like a literal joke considering what the move is called. I think he's a pretty damned good character, and with Dr. Tornado he has some horizontal gain in there but man if he EVER sinks just beyond the 'slightly-past the ledge' point he's doomed 100% of the time and I can't help but feel like that condemns him a lot.

At least the Belmonts are an oppressive nightmare when they're onstage, Dr. Mario is very solid but at the end of the day he's just a slow, beefy *** Mario with a better Down B.. so his poor recovery ends up having more of a Little Mac effect on him imo. I personally would put the character in low-to-mid mid tier.
 
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What is the overall impression of Dr. Mario :ultdoc:? My thoughts on the character are extremely polarizing.

On one hand he has pretty impressive combo game, very good damage output, a FAir that functions pretty similar to C. Falcon's knee in terms of how it plays into his overall kit (DAir > FAir at high % is even a kill confirm on Doc, just like with Cap), Dr Tornado is amazing for getting easy kills when you manage to catch recoveries with it, the cape.. Doc has a lot going for him.. like that BThrow.

Then you die at super low %'s a bunch of times because his recovery is like WTF Tier bad and then he just feels like a Low Tier. Seriously, WHY is Doc's recovery so poor? The vertical gain on Super Jump Punch doesn't even make sense, it's almost like a literal joke considering what the move is called. I think he's a pretty damned good character, and with Dr. Tornado he has some horizontal gain in there but man if he EVER sinks just beyond the 'slightly-past the ledge' point he's doomed 100% of the time and I can't help but feel like that condemns him a lot.

At least the Belmonts are an oppressive nightmare when they're onstage, Dr. Mario is very solid but at the end of the day he's just a slow, beefy *** Mario with a better Down B.. so his poor recovery ends up having more of a Little Mac effect on him imo. I personally would put the character in low-to-mid mid tier.
I play a lot of Doc and can confirm. His recovery is the one of the only things holding him back from greatness, though I won't comment on how high his potential would be if he had Mario's up-b height instead of his pitiful little "hah!" that rarely seems to take him high enough to do much of anything. I think pills are a really solid projectile in general, and his back throw is straight stupid near the ledge.
 
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Then you die at super low %'s a bunch of times because his recovery is like WTF Tier bad and then he just feels like a Low Tier. Seriously, WHY is Doc's recovery so poor? The vertical gain on Super Jump Punch doesn't even make sense, it's almost like a literal joke considering what the move is called. I think he's a pretty damned good character, and with Dr. Tornado he has some horizontal gain in there but man if he EVER sinks just beyond the 'slightly-past the ledge' point he's doomed 100% of the time and I can't help but feel like that condemns him a lot.
I'll say this.
His recovery isn't THAT bad, Tornado is your saving grace in most situations.
I'd argue he's got it better then :ultcorrinf::ultganondorf::ulticeclimbers:(Solo):ultlittlemac::ultness::ultsimon::ultrichter::ultcloud:(Limitless), but that's a topic for another day.

Regardless, I agree with the rest.
I'd put him in Solid Mid-Tier.
A grey area of "too good while not being good enough"
(Plz buff him anyway)
 
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That's one of the things I don't understand. Other than grab ranges being mediocre on some fighters, why do some players dislike the near universal nerf of grab's end lag? I think they are mostly fine.
 
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That's one of the things I don't understand. Other than grab ranges being mediocre on some fighters, why do some players dislike the near universal nerf of grab's end lag? I think they are mostly fine.
Because as overpowered as the shield-grab was, no one really enjoys having less options than before, least of all on a previously powerful tool even mid to low tiers relied on. A slow, stubby, risky, telegraphed move that rarely even combos anymore for certain character, isn't gonna be used a lot.

Some characters previously defined by their grab game like Ike and Captain Falcon feel more linear and restrictive than before, missing a large part of why people liked them.

At least that's my personal opinion.
 
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DelugeTN

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I don't mind grabs being nerfed overall, but on some characters not much was done to compensate for this and they've been shafted quite hard as a result.

It also leaves a situation where tether grabs and grabs like Olimar's triple Pikmin grab are far better than they would be otherwise. Grab range basically makes or breaks a grab itself now. Throw game is VERY present, but grabs themselves are pretty much only reserved for reaction options outside of tether grabs / ranged grabs.. and those are probably the best grabs (in terms of just the GRAB itself) in the game now because of this. Everyone has such high endlag on their grab now that it's not so polarizing a thing to have a grab with a ton of endlag to compensate for its range, i.e. a tether grab.. as such tether grabs feel like genuinely some of if not THE best grabs in the entire game now and that is a little odd.
 
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Lacrimosa

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Speaking of grabs and Dr. Mario: He also has the 2nd strongest bThrow after Incineroar. Meaning it's stronger than Ness' (it at least kills at earlier percent.
That's still a big plus for Dr. Mario because he can counter reckless play with a bThrow and at the ledge you're pretty much dead at 90% if not earlier when playing a lightweight.
But his recovery is awful. Dr. Tornado may give you some horizontal distance but it doesn't give any vertical gain and the endlag of tornada is huge, so you can hit him between the tornado and the following "Super" jump. It's even worse than Ganon's recovery and that's saying a lot.
 

DelugeTN

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I thought Doc and Roar had a tied BThrow? Regardless, it can take stocks a hell of a lot sooner than 90% if it isn't stale. I've killed lighter characters at around 70% at the ledge before with Roar's BThrow.

His recovery is bottom 5 imo, it's one of the worst in the game. Dr. Tornado may get you some horizontal distance, but when used as a recovery move it's extremely easy to jump out and punish unless you're playing Little Mac or something, so even though he gets a teeny-tiny boost to his overall recovery from it.. it's not a fantastic one.

IMO a lot of the characters listed above like the Belmonts, Ganon and etc. all have a better recovery than Doc. His is the whole 'terrible shebang' so to speak, terrible distance / gain, slow overall in execution and easy to punish / linear.
 
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In Ultimate quite a few characters are downright held down by their bad recovery. So many characters would be better, or potentially even Top Tier if they could just recover. Dr.Mario would probably be better than regular Mario like in Melee, Ganondorf would be around Link’s level, Diddy would be High Tier if his recovery wasn’t terrible same with Incineroar, and the Belmonts could be Lower Top if they could recover well.

It’s a shame because they have enough weaknesses already as is. And all of them take more skill to play than most Top Tiers. It’s pretty flawed design honestly.
 

DelugeTN

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I don't think Incineroar's recovery is all that bad honestly. Unless you get hit by something with a low launch angle (ala Olimar DSmash or one of Wii Fit's moves) and sail down just over the ledge, he has enough horizontal gain on his recovery to make it back pretty much all the time.. not to mention his recovery can kill you if you don't respect it. It's not fantastic, but I find it to be greatly underrated in terms of recoveries overall. It's a hell of a lot better than Ganon & Doc's.

Between his jump, Side B AND Up B roar gets a ton of distance, his only real issue is not a lot of it is vertical. Ganon has such a poor recovery because not only does it get absolute piss for vertical gain overall, it has basically zero horizontal gain (gone are the days of Down B double jump restoration recovering) and Side B puts you into free fall so outside of ledge snapping it's never a good idea unless it's to Ganoncide. This is bad enough, but it is further compounded by the issue of Rockcrocking, which imo makes Ganon's recovery potentially bottom 5. Any time he has to Up B, you can fling yourself into the path of it to get hit, stage tech it right after and then put out an aerial to kill him when he's in endlag from the move.. C. Falcon has the same problem. This lets you kill Ganon literally for free a lot of the time, because going low is usually his best option.. and this is what condemns him so hard.
 
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Zachmac

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I don't mind grabs being nerfed overall, but on some characters not much was done to compensate for this and they've been shafted quite hard as a result.

It also leaves a situation where tether grabs and grabs like Olimar's triple Pikmin grab are far better than they would be otherwise. Grab range basically makes or breaks a grab itself now. Throw game is VERY present, but grabs themselves are pretty much only reserved for reaction options outside of tether grabs / ranged grabs.. and those are probably the best grabs (in terms of just the GRAB itself) in the game now because of this. Everyone has such high endlag on their grab now that it's not so polarizing a thing to have a grab with a ton of endlag to compensate for its range, i.e. a tether grab.. as such tether grabs feel like genuinely some of if not THE best grabs in the entire game now and that is a little odd.
Faster grabs are harder to snuff out on start up, easier to tomahawk and catch opponents off guard with, and are much more reliable OoS. And no, while it's no longer the meta, shielding grabbing isn't quite as dead as people make it out to be - mispacing on shield happens a lot in more frantic, fast-moving skirmishes. Tethers are still better then they've ever been but I think the only reason they work so well on characters like :ultivysaur: and :ultolimar: is because those characters are already attuned to more midrange/longrange combat to begin with and are good at slowing down the pace of the match. At least from my experience with playing Ivysaur though, it's really difficult to fish for grabs when you need one, so conditioning and reads are very important. Meanwhile even with :ultsquirtle:'s pathetic range sometimes it's sometimes as easy as getting up in your opponents space and throwing up shield, or feinting an aerial approach and going for a tomahawk.

Of course grab reward and how well a character's particular grab meshes with their kit is still super important and one with bad reward for its risk isn't going to be used much regardless of its range.
 
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Lacrimosa

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Can we put Chrom's recovery in bottom 5 as well? This thing is just awful and when he has no jump he's totally dead, no way aerial drift gets him back. The times where you then get hit by the "Chromikaze" has less to do with Chrom but with way too naive edgeguarding.
Ike's, while their upB is similar(the same?), he at least can recover horizontally. It's not much better but it is.
 
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The only thing I really have to say about Dr. Mario is that I hate getting hit by his down special for some weird reason. Doesn't even matter what the situation is, if it tags me I'm just all "ugh."

I can definitely agree with Chrom's recovery being bottom tier. I'd put him alongside Little Mac, Dr. Mario, and then...maybe Ganondorf and Incineroar? Belmonts? (SoPo too if we're counting that.) I'm mostly trying to think of characters that you can hit with a decently strong low-angle move and not even have to bother edgeguarding because it's physically impossible for them to make it back anyway.
 
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Everyone would love up-b to be 'reliable' in terms of range again, but at the least it's reliable on hit and is still a potent kill option.
They didn't wanna give her "everything", although it wouldn't have spelt the end of the game's competitive integrity if they had. *shrug*
All of that's fair and good, I just wanted to clarify that I meant making her old Up-B (plasma wire) more reliable would have been better to me than giving her a new up b in Smash 4 all together. I wasn't talking about the change from 4 to Ultimate.

I play quite a lot of Doc, and my feeling is that even on-stage, he has some problems. He's really slow and stubby on the ground, and struggles to punish things other characters deal with a lot better (he straight up sometimes can't punish people that roll behind him). He relies a lot on hard reads or offstage play for kills, which is unfortunate because his recovery is so terrible already.

My wishlist for him is basically like, an airspeed or ground speed improvement, a dash attack that kills eventually (so that he can eventually punish and kill you for landing far away), and either less endlag on aerial Tornado or better height on his up-b.
 
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Sean²

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I always kind of considered it to be Mac, Cloud (w/o limit), Doc, Chrom, Belmonts. Basically in that order, worst to 'less' worse. Then probably Diddy, Incineroar, then maybe Ganondorf? Prepatch Incineroar would have been bottom 5. I just think any character that I can tap with a soft Nair offstage and they just die.

Basically anyone with a primarily vertical or horizontal recovery and poor aerial drift, or being too reliant on being within tether range. The options of being able to go horizontal or vertical is what makes some characters have "better" recoveries, even if it doesn't really seem like it at a glance. If you're considering a directional airdodge as anything more than a tertiary/mixup recovery option, you probably have a garbage recovery. I wouldn't consider the option of being able to drag an opponent down with you to death, as a positive to your recovery, as it only gives you an advantage if you are ahead in stocks, or someone goes for a careless edgeguard when you're at a huge percent deficit and you can even things up.

The only thing I really have to say about Dr. Mario is that I hate getting hit by his down special for some weird reason. Doesn't even matter what the situation is, if it tags me I'm just all "ugh."
It's one of those "instantly tilts you" moves. I feel the same about Yoshi's down air.
 
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The only thing I really have to say about Dr. Mario is that I hate getting hit by his down special for some weird reason. Doesn't even matter what the situation is, if it tags me I'm just all "ugh."
I think it's for a similar reason why people don't like getting their shield broken, or buried by Inkling or King K. Rool: It takes a while to finish and you're helpless while in it, so it feels worse compared to just getting hit and dying instantly. Another reason why Smash 4 Bayonetta was so hated, I suppose.
 
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The only thing I really have to say about Dr. Mario is that I hate getting hit by his down special for some weird reason. Doesn't even matter what the situation is, if it tags me I'm just all "ugh."
It's because it's a long-lasting multihit, most likely. Feels bad to get stuck in one attack for more than a full second and just have to watch it happen. It's related to the whole principle of fighting games in general being about taking away the opponent's play time. When you're doing really well, they're often not getting to do anything at all. Games with long true combos really give that feeling, too.
 
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Worst recoveries [blatant imo here] should be some combination of Mac, Belmonts, Duck Hunt, and Ganon. Doc if you want a 5th without splitting the Belmonts.

  • Mac is obvious and deliberate, nothing to see here.
  • Belmonts have a tether that can easily be interfered with, an up b with only middling reach and a generally poor snap, and relatively poor airspeed.
  • Duck Hunt is slow, unprotected, and doesn't travel particularly far for how slow it is. Needs can to be out for any sort of offstage deterrence.
  • Ganon has terrible recovery attributes (speed + jump height) and can get killed for actually landing the grab on someone in the same vein as Falcon. Gets more distance than expected, but it's still pretty short. Has a good ledge snap though!
  • Doc can mixup a bit with tornado, but it's committal. Up b gets laughably poor distance and only minimally protects him.
  • (Solo Icies are obviously here as well, and are basically right there with Mac for the worst, but something feels...wrong about just listing them outright. Maybe that's just me though)

Chrom and Cloud can also both be considered, but I'm not convinced that they're in the same tier as these other ones. They have have excellent air speed and fast aerials to cover themselves while they drift into position. Both recoveries are still bad, don't get me wrong, but are either of them really worse than the others listed thus far? I can see it in both cases for certain matchups, but as far as general badness? I'm pretty hesitant to bump them up (or down, as it were)

Corrin and Incineroar would definitely contend with the bottom before their respective recovery buffs, but at this point I don't think either is a serious candidate anymore. Neither of them have a good recovery, mind you, but I can't see any rationale for them replacing the ones above this.

Ness is of course the ever-present difficult-to-say-exactly-how-bad case, as he was in 4. It seems pretty obvious that his recovery is severely limited, but...Iunno, for how frequently he gets lumped in with all the other obvious cases, he doesn't get taken out offstage nearly as easily. His aerial mobility is too good, especially when combined with his amazing airdodge and generous snap distance. But like he very easily could still fit in the worst list depending on the day, so who knows.

Finally, wanted to shoutout that Bowser's recovery is honestly pretty damn terrible as well. The vertical distance got noticeably worse from 4, which essentially means that he now has a diet version of DK's -it gets less overall distance, has significantly less horizontal protection (while only granting minimal vertical protection), and when coupled with his new fast-falling attributes (remember, he had always been shockingly floaty prior to Ultimate!), means he has less flexibility offstage overall. He doesn't get brought up much in these recovery discussions, but I truly think he's notably worse off than Corrin, Robin, Bowser Jr., and Roy, just for some brief examples.
 
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Ness is of course the ever-present difficult-to-say-exactly-how-bad case, as he was in 4. It seems pretty obvious that his recovery is severely limited, but...Iunno, for how frequently he gets lumped in with all the other obvious cases, he doesn't get taken out offstage nearly as easily. His aerial mobility is too good, especially when combined with his amazing airdodge and generous snap distance. But like he very easily could still fit in the worst list depending on the day, so who knows.
Ness has great air mobility, magnet reverses to mxiup his air position and trejectory, and the best airdodge in the game. I use my up-b to recover pretty rarely, as do good players like Awestin.
 
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Worst recoveries [blatant imo here] should be some combination of Mac, Belmonts, Duck Hunt, and Ganon. Doc if you want a 5th without splitting the Belmonts.

  • Mac is obvious and deliberate, nothing to see here.
  • Belmonts have a tether that can easily be interfered with, an up b with only middling reach and a generally poor snap, and relatively poor airspeed.
  • Duck Hunt is slow, unprotected, and doesn't travel particularly far for how slow it is. Needs can to be out for any sort of offstage deterrence.
  • Ganon has terrible recovery attributes (speed + jump height) and can get killed for actually landing the grab on someone in the same vein as Falcon. Gets more distance than expected, but it's still pretty short. Has a good ledge snap though!
  • Doc can mixup a bit with tornado, but it's committal. Up b gets laughably poor distance and only minimally protects him.
  • (Solo Icies are obviously here as well, and are basically right there with Mac for the worst, but something feels...wrong about just listing them outright. Maybe that's just me though)

Chrom and Cloud can also both be considered, but I'm not convinced that they're in the same tier as these other ones. They have have excellent air speed and fast aerials to cover themselves while they drift into position. Both recoveries are still bad, don't get me wrong, but are either of them really worse than the others listed thus far? I can see it in both cases for certain matchups, but as far as general badness? I'm pretty hesitant to bump them up (or down, as it were)

Corrin and Incineroar would definitely contend with the bottom before their respective recovery buffs, but at this point I don't think either is a serious candidate anymore. Neither of them have a good recovery, mind you, but I can't see any rationale for them replacing the ones above this.

Ness is of course the ever-present difficult-to-say-exactly-how-bad case, as he was in 4. It seems pretty obvious that his recovery is severely limited, but...Iunno, for how frequently he gets lumped in with all the other obvious cases, he doesn't get taken out offstage nearly as easily. His aerial mobility is too good, especially when combined with his amazing airdodge and generous snap distance. But like he very easily could still fit in the worst list depending on the day, so who knows.

Finally, wanted to shoutout that Bowser's recovery is honestly pretty damn terrible as well. The vertical distance got noticeably worse from 4, which essentially means that he now has a diet version of DK's -it gets less overall distance, has significantly less horizontal protection (while only granting minimal vertical protection), and when coupled with his new fast-falling attributes (remember, he had always been shockingly floaty prior to Ultimate!), means he has less flexibility offstage overall. He doesn't get brought up much in these recovery discussions, but I truly think he's notably worse off than Corrin, Robin, Bowser Jr., and Roy, just for some brief examples.
I would also maybe add Luigi to the list of rbad recoveries. His recovery options are not too bad on paper. However, combined with very slow air speed fairly poor range all combined with how slow, linear and predictable side-b makes him very vulnerable if he is fsr offstage. He has a hard time recovering unless he is directly below the edge.
Without rising tornado he has no way to mix-up or threaten anyone while trying to recover unless you hope on a Green Missle misfire
 
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SwagGuy99

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What is the overall impression of Dr. Mario :ultdoc:? My thoughts on the character are extremely polarizing.

On one hand he has pretty impressive combo game, very good damage output, a FAir that functions pretty similar to C. Falcon's knee in terms of how it plays into his overall kit (DAir > FAir at high % is even a kill confirm on Doc, just like with Cap), Dr Tornado is amazing for getting easy kills when you manage to catch recoveries with it, the cape.. Doc has a lot going for him.. like that BThrow.

Then you die at super low %'s a bunch of times because his recovery is like WTF Tier bad and then he just feels like a Low Tier. Seriously, WHY is Doc's recovery so poor? The vertical gain on Super Jump Punch doesn't even make sense, it's almost like a literal joke considering what the move is called. I think he's a pretty damned good character, and with Dr. Tornado he has some horizontal gain in there but man if he EVER sinks just beyond the 'slightly-past the ledge' point he's doomed 100% of the time and I can't help but feel like that condemns him a lot.

At least the Belmonts are an oppressive nightmare when they're onstage, Dr. Mario is very solid but at the end of the day he's just a slow, beefy *** Mario with a better Down B.. so his poor recovery ends up having more of a Little Mac effect on him imo. I personally would put the character in low-to-mid mid tier.
Solid Mid Tier. High Tier ground game/air game with a low tier recovery means that he's a glass cannon kind of like Mewtwo. Pills are actually one of the best projectiles in the game though.
 

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Speaking of bad recoveries, what's up with the balance team and giving certain characters near iredeemable recoveries to balance out an otherwise solid moveset? Ganondorf is pretty much taken from a potential low high tier/high mid to low tier because certain matchups just become extremely bad because of his recovery(Doc is in a similar boat as others mentioned). He's already combo/juggle food and is terrible at approaching. Why does he also need to have a bottom 5 recovery that also punishes him for landing it offstage? Ganoncide nerf didn't help him either.
 
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Ness has a below average recovery but it's definitely not at the same levels as Belmont, Doc or even Roar.

Firstly, his air speed isn't great but he is floaty and has one of the best air accels so he can still cover distance from stage without jumping that he needs to have a chance to use his recovery moves unlike a Ganon or Belmont.

Second his double jump travels a good distance, and has good hitboxes he can place out to swat away potential edge guards. Being floaty he can afford to place these hitboxes out without having fallen too far from ledge unlike say a Fox or Ganon (unless he's within jump distance from stage) and put themselves in an worse situation.

Third- DAD, a blessing giving him a "third" jump. While it can be covered by staying at the ledge and placing a well timed hitbox as the intangiblity wears off but before the Ness grabs stage. A: Ness can reduce the amount of time he is vulnerable by using DAD farther away from stage. B: Your opponent has to stay on stage to cover this, meaning they aren't going off stage to edge guard which opens up the option of using PKT2 much more safely. Very few characters can simultaneously cover DAD to ledge and PKT2. If Ness has begun PKT2 and your not already off stage most characters can't safely stop it.

Fourth: Tying into the third point you have to be in position to stop PKT2 unless the Ness player does it literally next to ledge which they obviously shouldn't do. Most characters need to already be headed off stage as Ness is starting his PKT2 to stop it safely. This isn't much a deal as unless your halfway across stage when he's launched off it most characters can get into position quick enough, but after 40-65% depending on character this suddenly becomes incredibly risky to challenge because you can't tech moves that launch past a certain speed anymore. Getting hit by PKT2 which has a ton of knockback will stage spike you in this situations meaning unless you have a stock lead you will be K.O'd and the game even'd out.

Make no mistake Ness is still very vulnerable off stage but his recover isn't anything close to as bad as it's been in prior titles
 
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Solid Mid Tier. High Tier ground game/air game with a low tier recovery means that he's a glass cannon kind of like Mewtwo. Pills are actually one of the best projectiles in the game though.
Again though, I think docs ground game suffers a lot due to his dash speed leaving him in poor positions to punish with anything but dash attack. If I had a nickel for every time someone air dodged away from me at 90 and I couldn't punish with anything substantial....

If I could change only one thing id make his dash attack start to kill at 140ish. If I could change two I'd buff his recovery somehow.
 
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Sean²

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  • Duck Hunt is slow, unprotected, and doesn't travel particularly far for how slow it is. Needs can to be out for any sort of offstage deterrence.
Not a great recovery. But not absolutely terrible like some of the others you listed. Get a can out, get a gunman out, and that will deter all but the most bold from trying to intercept you. Get good at teching stage spikes and learn how to properly utilize airdodge out of up B and you'll make it back with the combination of all those things. I'd still consider Cloud and Chrom to have more exploitable recoveries. Cloud especially, since his up B doesn't snap going up without Limit, and the chances Cloud has limit when offstage has decreased exponentially over Smash 4. I've gimped so many Cloud players who try to recover low while not even needing to leave the stage. The only saving grace is that you can get a spike off it if your opponent really messes up.
 
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Sounds reasonable imo. Something like that or raise the damage of the throw further to 16%. The endlag is just silly the way it is now.
16% is a little out there lol. It'd become 20%~ With pummels.

I mean, it'd probably be fine. Would also help her issue vs shorties since the damage is way more valuable vs them. But 16% of a throw is kinda crazy.

What is the overall impression of Dr. Mario :ultdoc:? My thoughts on the character are extremely polarizing.

On one hand he has pretty impressive combo game, very good damage output, a FAir that functions pretty similar to C. Falcon's knee in terms of how it plays into his overall kit (DAir > FAir at high % is even a kill confirm on Doc, just like with Cap), Dr Tornado is amazing for getting easy kills when you manage to catch recoveries with it, the cape.. Doc has a lot going for him.. like that BThrow.

Then you die at super low %'s a bunch of times because his recovery is like WTF Tier bad and then he just feels like a Low Tier. Seriously, WHY is Doc's recovery so poor? The vertical gain on Super Jump Punch doesn't even make sense, it's almost like a literal joke considering what the move is called. I think he's a pretty damned good character, and with Dr. Tornado he has some horizontal gain in there but man if he EVER sinks just beyond the 'slightly-past the ledge' point he's doomed 100% of the time and I can't help but feel like that condemns him a lot.

At least the Belmonts are an oppressive nightmare when they're onstage, Dr. Mario is very solid but at the end of the day he's just a slow, beefy *** Mario with a better Down B.. so his poor recovery ends up having more of a Little Mac effect on him imo. I personally would put the character in low-to-mid mid tier.
I'd say he still has some untapped potential. But nothing to pull him too high out of mid tier still. Especially when you consider people still haven't optimized edge/ledgeguarding him. (His options at the ledge are TRASH. Ledge jump or a rising option is pretty much off limits to him)

He legitimately has a 1/6~ chance to kill you at pretty much any percent above 40% at the ledge. And it becomes closer to 1/3 at higher percents.

Soft dash attack kill confirms from 40% to 140% (Into dair, cyclone, sjp, or just uair)

But it only confirms at lower percents if it actually hits them during their ledge hang. Jump/drop were pretty obviously design to not line up with his most ideal kill confirms until later percents.

Due to this, there's actually mix-ups with wavedashing. Dashing to the ledge to feint a dash attack, then feinting back. (Note: A dash dance is actually both worse positioning, slower, and also leaves him open to get-up attacks during the turnaround and initial dash frames unlike a wavedash)

Pills also kill confirm at crazy wide percents on standard, ledge jump, and hang (Though rarely overlapping in coverage vs not-huge characters)

He's definitely a fun, functional character. And in most matchups, I'd say he's actually equal to or superior to Mario. But that lack of mobility, flexibility, and versatility just makes some matchups undoable in tournament play consistently. (Key word: Consistently.)

And in addition to his poor recovery, he also has a pretty bad ledge grab. Lower air speed, and shorter reach makes it WAY easier to time 2-frames than vs mario. And his total inability to recover high like Ness, Cloud, Chrom, etc makes his disadvantage one of the worst in the game imo.

VERY fun, fundamentalist character though. Also way better than regular Mario in dubs imo.
 
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Also, almost every top tier in Ultimate has at least one pronounced and severe weakness that you can exploit. Lucina has a bad disadvantage state. Pichu is hard to control but dies at 60%. Palutena is like Bison from SF, very strong and safe but with a relatively linear gameplan making her more susceptible to reads. Olimar has poor disadvantage, moments of vulnerability built in to his kit, he's almost as light as Pichu, and if you know how his Pikmin work, his best option at any given time is right there for you to see. Peach and Wolf could be argued to have fewer real weaknesses, but they are also just very good all-rounders with good fundamental traits and aren't as overwhelming in the advantage as someone like Pichu for example. But even they both have bad vertical recovery.
I don't really agree with this. I would say that severe weaknesses are pretty much completely nonexistent among whatever characters are considered top tiers. Of these points, the most objective are the weights of Pichu and Olimar--even then I can assure you that Pichu is almost never dying at 60%(though this doesn't make your point untrue). I'll go through these one-by-one.

Lucina's disadvantage state really isn't that poor. We're talking about a non-fast falling character with some of the best OOS options in the game, a pretty safe recovery with good ledge getup options. Most importantly I don't feel like Lucina has a particularly tough time regaining stage control compared to other characters, since fast and damaging disjoints are a nice way to deal with many kinds of horizontal pressure.

Pichu might be somewhat hard, but character difficulty shouldn't of course be much of a factor when discussing top level players--it's far too commonly cited when discussing characters like Peach, Greninja, S4 Sheik, etc. Not only is 'difficulty' basically impossible to pin down, but whatever we're trying to describe by it has obviously proven not to be much of an issue for the top level players of these characters (like, for instance, watch Samsora land a million dash in float cancel nairs in a row. pretty stupid hard from my perspective, but then you see Samsora land these in game--not an issue for him obviously).

As for Palutena, I've been trying to understand what it is about her that makes her come across as linear to so many players (since, in my opinion, she isn't really all that linear--but even if she matches someone's personal feeling of what is 'linear', I'd say it probably has little impact on her overall effectiveness). I think there are two reasons: 1) Palu has a total of two sourspots in her moveset (late usmash and dash attack) that are rarely seen, and she doesn't worry about autocancel windows--this means that when Palu's moves hit, they look similar each time. 2) Palu has a barely existent ground game. In terms of what could be contributing to her perceived linearity, the more significant is point two--point one, I think, is just part of what makes Palu so good.

When considering linearity, I think unlikely scenarios are often pictured (I often got this impression when discussing Zero Suit's neutral in S4). For instance, we could picture Palutena facing an immobile opponent standing in shield somewhere in Palu's midrange. Palu's approach options are essentially reduced to a jump in aerial in this scenario (assuming she wants to directly pressure). Now instead try to open up the picture to include a broader spectrum of Smash gameplay--something closer to actual fluid gameplay, with both characters in motion and both players looking for openings. Now consider Palu's options: 1) Autoreticle forces approaches 2) Palu has two safe aerial jump ins from either orientation in fair and bair that normally rely very little on Palu actually jumping into the opponent when starting combos 3) Nair will eat up your spot dodges and jumps 4) Bair is basically impossible to contest air-to-air 5) Grab combos 6) Self-explanatory very good dash attack that beats out landings 7) Self-explanatory very good uair. In spite of her ground game Palu has outstanding options for almost everything in neutral--this is without getting into the combos, which I think are well known, though I also think that Palutena has some of the highest reward from gaining stage control of the cast, between edge/ledgeguards, juggles, bairs, etc. I don't think that Palu is particularly easy to read. In the case that you know a particular option the Palu wants, it's probably still quite effective. In the case that you're reading the Palu roughly as often as she's reading you, it's very likely that the Palu is winning (depending on the character you're playing). Her option coverage isn't an easy puzzle to piece together for any character. Most characters probably just lose.

Though I think her real weaknesses are somewhat easily identifiable: 1) OOS options 2) Pretty poor disadvantage as a whole with a borderline-bad recovery 3) Olimar

For Olimar, his 'disadvantage state' (I'll reluctantly use this term until we find something better) isn't too bad either. he's rarely edgeguardable. It takes watching a game--the Olimar will just go under the stage to escape pressure, or maybe he'll just do whatever he wants with his flexible *** recovery. It was the same in Smash 4. As was Pikmin order--by this point many top players have been playing against some form of good-Olimar-rendition for at least five years. Pikmin order does not commit Olimar to picking any particular option. A blue pikmin is just as able to perform an aerial as it is a grab. That 'less optimal' option will still deal damage and give Olimar the stage. It may even give him time to sort his Pikmin to select the best one for whatever immediately following scenario (so, probably purple, cuz). Even considering that, tracking Olimar's pikmin order isn't going to prevent a player from getting hit by the optimal one in its favored condition, since most of Olimar's moves are lagless, disjointed (so also ranged), and he's amazing at threatening multiple options at once.

As for Peach and Wolf (this post is getting long so I won't go into much)--they're probably both (especially Peach) about as threatening in advantage as Pichu, and Peach's vertical recovery is fine.
 
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Rizen

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Tethers aren't as good as normal grabs. The fastest tethers have 12f startup vs normal's f6. Those extra 6 frames mean a lot. If you tomahawk a f6 grab can beat most of the cast's OoS options. Conversely a normal grab can be used OoS where a f12+ one can't. With increased run speed on everyone it's not hard to land a normal grab even with short reach. Tethers also have more endlag.

Echoing what's been said, Dr.Mario is scary onstage but held back by his recovery and worse mobility than his counterpart. I didn't realize his Bthrow was so strong. He's kind of like a super heavyweight without the weight; exploitable but devastating if he gets momentum.

One point for Cloud and Chrom's upBs is they can use them high and plummet down to the ledge. This is a nice mix up.

DH's upB doesn't put them in freefall anymore so that's a plus.

Ness' recovery isn't that bad in a large part due to how powerful PKT2 is. It's like a Ganon Fsmash. If you don't gimp Ness right away you could die at low %s.
 
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Spinosaurus

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Dr. Mario is very solid but at the end of the day he's just a slow, beefy *** Mario with a better Down B
I can't even agree with this part. The addition of jump canceling charge moves makes FLUDD have a lot of utility because it gives Mario much more leeway to charge it, and the benefits of a move like that in a game where full hops are more common and you only get one air dodge are big. Doc Nado can net you early kills, but I feel like FLUDD's a relatively much more important and versatile tool in Mario's kit.
 
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Speaking of bad recoveries, what's up with the balance team and giving certain characters near iredeemable recoveries to balance out an otherwise solid moveset? Ganondorf is pretty much taken from a potential low high tier/high mid to low tier because certain matchups just become extremely bad because of his recovery(Doc is in a similar boat as others mentioned). He's already combo/juggle food and is terrible at approaching. Why does he also need to have a bottom 5 recovery that also punishes him for landing it offstage? Ganoncide nerf didn't help him either.
In Ganondorf's case, that basically a result of him being a slower, harder hitting last minute clone of a guy with an already bad recovery and him being stuck with that ever since. Characters like launch Incineroar, Doc, and Ridley have way less of an excuse though. Even considering the typical dumb unfounded excuse of being heavy balancing it out, Bowser, DDD, & K. Rool have better recoveries while being heavier.
 
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Lacrimosa

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Doesn't Duck Hunt have a pretty good recovery? I don't know this character that much but you can't attack while recovering, that I know.
But what I've seen from Raito is that he has a can ready whenever he has to recover. This suggests that you can't just put a can out there with no plan behind the action. Yes, it is a fatal flaw if you're not cautious, but most of the times, a can should be ready.
 
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I can't even agree with this part. The addition of jump canceling charge moves makes FLUDD have a lot of utility because it gives Mario much more leeway to charge it, and the benefits of a move like that in a game where full hops are more common and you only get one air dodge are big. Doc Nado can net you early kills, but I feel like FLUDD's a relatively much more important and versatile tool in Mario's kit.
Ehh, both moves are better suited for who they're on, honestly.

Doc's disadvantage is just so bad, he wouldn't really have the time to take advantage of a set-up/cornering tool like FLUDD imo. Plus pills actually serve a similar role due to their higher angle making them better at getting jumps. (And being non-elemental, so more consistent like FLUDD)

And while Doc could get people on the ledge more often, without cyclone his pill kill confirms around 50-90 into cyclone would just be gone.

Mario's mobility lets him actually take better advantage of a FLUDDed full hop. Plus it helps mitigate his issue where most of his combos are weakened with DI Out. Unlike Doc for him things are largely just true. Plus, a jump is actually a big commitment for doc. Jump cancelling consistently wouldn't be ideal imo.

If they were to trade any moves, it should be cape. They contradict each other so hard.

Mario's cape halts his momentum to totally deny utilizing his mobility.
Whereas Doc's cape actually locks his momentum (You can't DI during the animation) so that if he runs off + Cape, he just barely makes it back. If he had Mario's stall, he could probably Cape to cover Side Recoveries > Dair/Cyclone to cover low recoveries.

Doesn't Duck Hunt have a pretty good recovery? I don't know this character that much but you can't attack while recovering, that I know.
But what I've seen from Raito is that he has a can ready whenever he has to recover. This suggests that you can't just put a can out there with no plan behind the action. Yes, it is a fatal flaw if you're not cautious, but most of the times, a can should be ready.
Yes, but no. Not at all.

Like, if you just throw duck hunt offstage, you're probably not edgeguarding him due to the angle of most f/bthrows letting him set up trick shot very effectively. Heck, at lower percents, Due to directional airdodge, he can do it while level with the stage, and just airdodge safely to ledge since the hitbox will cover him. Making his low% recovery pattern MUCH better than in smash 4.

So in the traditional edgeguarding world, his recovery is 'okay.' Maybe even 'Good' vs ledge trappers since it helps shut them down.

However, his coverage ANYWHERE beneath him is nonexistent. Dair is slow, hurtboxy, and straight down. Nair similar issue, not as bad. But also more of a committment. Fair and bair are good moves, but don't hit ANYWHERE on the lower sides. Being straight lines in front/behind him.

So he's often forced to jump, and without his jump, he can't line himself up with trick shot as consistently while recovering.

Most people think you should just throw him offstage immediately. And his recovery seems kind of fine this way. But his overall disadvantage state is trash, so imo most characters should actually uthrow him even at higher percents. Even trading with a DH without his double jump sets up for great edgeguards.

You won't see duck hunt just thrown offstage and killed like a Ness, Falcon, or Doctor Mario might. But you will see some random stray verticalish hit leading to an edgeguard very often.
 
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DelugeTN

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I can't even agree with this part. The addition of jump canceling charge moves makes FLUDD have a lot of utility because it gives Mario much more leeway to charge it, and the benefits of a move like that in a game where full hops are more common and you only get one air dodge are big. Doc Nado can net you early kills, but I feel like FLUDD's a relatively much more important and versatile tool in Mario's kit.
How? FLUDD's use is MU dependent 100%, Dr. Tornado is literally ALWAYS useful.
 

DelugeTN

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FLUDD gives stage control and discourages full hops. Sure you can shield it but that's requires you to be grounded. Stage control is useful in any MU. It has more use than a gimp tool.
How does it give Stage Control in MU's where you literally never have the time or means to use it? Plenty of those exist..

Also how does it give you stage CONTROL? It just shoves them back, it doesn't put them into disadvantage and it's foolish to act like Mario is some large / oppressive threat at a distance. FLUDD is really gimmicky and imo a much worse Down B than Dr. Tornado. Give me a means to attack someone, not cheese them.

If the opponent doesn't have a terrible and/or exploitable recovery FLUDD is nearly worthless outside of an OSHI option to push people back. It in no way gives you stage CONTROL that I can see though, as some characters could technically be pushed back into a larger threat area (i.e. further away, like the Belmonts or something) if you don't whisk them off the stage with it. Not to mention the thing ain't exactly super precise so catching full hops with it isn't guaranteed.

I've fought and watched many Mario players in tournament, FLUDD is not something I often see used. I'll concede that it's got some use, but I in no world could see it being considered better than Dr. Tornado which is literally useful all the time, regardless of MU.
 
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How does it give Stage Control in MU's where you literally never have the time or means to use it? Plenty of those exist..

Also how does it give you stage CONTROL? It just shoves them back, it doesn't put them into disadvantage and it's foolish to act like Mario is some large / oppressive threat at a distance. FLUDD is really gimmicky and imo a much worse Down B than Dr. Tornado. Give me a means to attack someone, not cheese them.
If you're not grounded, in specials/dodge endlag, or not dashing/jumping inward(approachinf) it straight pushes you towards the ledge. Leading to either corner pressure, or ledge traps.

So it's a direct punish for not approaching. Plus if you do approach, mario has several oos options in grab, bair, sjp, and usmash.

You can't completely safely pressure a mario charging FLUDD up close. Just trying to grab him can get you killed.

Vs characters with lower air acc than mario, it even locks aerial opponents DIing inward by locking them in place. So grounded approaches are your only option.

It's not gimmicky at all, and mario's best answer to spaced disjoints, dash dancing, platform camping, and many(not all) forms of zoning.

With the reduced reward off grab, it's the only thing keeping mario viable. (And the fireball confirms)

FLUDD also pushes regardless of percent\rage unlike in smash 4. And pairs well with the fireball buffs to kill confirm grounded opponents. (FH fireball > uair > anything) Making his neutral much more consistent and imo way better designed than his grabhappy usmash spamming smash 4 iteration.
 

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Ehh, both moves are better suited for who they're on, honestly.

Doc's disadvantage is just so bad, he wouldn't really have the time to take advantage of a set-up/cornering tool like FLUDD imo. Plus pills actually serve a similar role due to their higher angle making them better at getting jumps. (And being non-elemental, so more consistent like FLUDD)

And while Doc could get people on the ledge more often, without cyclone his pill kill confirms around 50-90 into cyclone would just be gone.

Mario's mobility lets him actually take better advantage of a FLUDDed full hop. Plus it helps mitigate his issue where most of his combos are weakened with DI Out. Unlike Doc for him things are largely just true. Plus, a jump is actually a big commitment for doc. Jump cancelling consistently wouldn't be ideal imo.

If they were to trade any moves, it should be cape. They contradict each other so hard.

Mario's cape halts his momentum to totally deny utilizing his mobility.
Whereas Doc's cape actually locks his momentum (You can't DI during the animation) so that if he runs off + Cape, he just barely makes it back. If he had Mario's stall, he could probably Cape to cover Side Recoveries > Dair/Cyclone to cover low recoveries.
I agree that FLUDD on Doc wouldn't be as good, my point was more that I think Mario gets more from FLUDD than Doc gets from Nado. Comparing the two and arguing which is better in a vacuum is a bit pointless though and I shouldn't have tried doing that in the first place, so that's my bad.
 
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