Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Gleam]

all come out as the three best heavies and kind of hold what I feel to be in a similar place in applicability. I'd have to edge out Bowser as #1 and honestly, while not bad, I do feel Donkey Kong gets overrated at times. He's a character I constantly see in "High Tier" despite having no better results than the other two heavies.

comes down at a pretty low 4th place. I'm willing to get him around Mid to Low Mid Tier but he's got a lot of issues and isn't very viable competitively. Though it has to be said, before Incineroar got all those patch buffs, I'd have considered him pretty bad. So while he may not be a good character IMO, he has definitely shown improvements throughout Ultimate's career.

Probably comes around next at best, IMO, Lower Mid but I'd see it more at upper part of Low. I'm not going to get too much into Ganon, no point really but one of the primary reasons I have him below is that I feel has much more capable Neutral and while might struggle with some issues of recovery, he has more options and forces opponents to take different approaches compared to Ganondorf.

Comes on at a definite Low Tier and what's kind amusing is that, from a technical standpoint, K. Rool doesn't feel that bad. There was a time when people thought King K. Rool was an awesome beast and with things like two projectiles, a good recovery, super armour, it was easy to see why. But even before the patches came, King K. Rool began to slowly but surely fall. Much like Ganondorf, King K. Rool can easily catch you offguard if you don't know the match but it's clear that in the overall setting, K. Rool has not been able to hold up to the rest of the competition.

is just dead last. I had personally hoped that usage of his specials and edgeguarding would help Plant but in the end, terrible neutral and lack of killing power has just pushed Plant to near bottom.

I don't know if I can say much about so I'll just leave him out.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Ya know and finally..wait. Oh for the love of! why do so many pro players still put him in top-tier om thier lists

Shulk is top-tier "cuz potential" is the Smash meme that will just hever die.

Pretty much the same characters I'd put in top tier, including Shulk. I think a lot of Smash 4 players are underrating Shulk because of Smash 4, but he truly got some major buffs. Would be interesting if someone like MkLeo or Tweek picked him up, I guess, right now his best players are Nicko, DarkShad, and Kome? Good players but they don't have a history of being top 20 players in the world.

 

[blackghost]

Shulk remains theory craft but as a bayo main he is among my most hated MUs. shield arc is BS.
but for characters that dont rely on combos its ussually not too bad.
Shulk will always struggle due to the fact that reading him is very easy. he literally tells you what he wants to do at any given moment. and is one a timer to do it.

 

[Rizen]

And poor had to win all those tournaments to be recognized top tier.

 

[Kiligar]

And poor had to win all those tournaments to be recognized top tier.

He was top tier at release. At release he was 2nd maybe 3rd, with it being Pichu, Snake/Olimar. This was due to the unpatched Nikita, which still needs end lag nerfs after the patch. It was unpopular opinion, and was popular to underrate Snake just because. The devs love Snake as far as I know, due to the character being overturned in various ways and them being so hesitant to nerf him. Compare Snake’s patch changes to Duck Hunt. Both are hard zoners. One is much better. Which one received no real buffs with multiple nerfs and which received consolation buffs with light nerfs? I may be sarcastic, but those thoughts were on the back of my mind as I watched Raito v MVD, patch notes resounding in my head. Like I said, there are many aspects of imbalance within the game, and some are popular to gloss over while others are popular to hate on. Since this isn’t a previous installation where technology, funds, or popularity aren’t a problem and the developers namely Sakurai showed such passion in creating this amazing game, I have hope they’ll realize a few mistakes and fix them.

Speaking of balance, who’s the most balanced character in Ultimate. I believe it’s Fox right now, with his strengths and weaknesses lining up to produce great results with enough skill (Light), but still be overall balanced. Fox’s fall Speed is both a benefit and a weakness, being easier to combo and less time to set up recovery offstage, but insane pressure onstage. He is light but that is offset by his amazing offensive potential. I can and most likely will go on about Fox’s balance, and others may have different viewpoints, but I’d like to lay down a foundation for what I use to define balance.
1. Every move performs a useful purpose, and has sufficient counterplay.

2. The characters overall ‘stats’ have strengths and weaknesses to them. Sonic is the fastest in the game but not the best, Bowser is heaviest and isn’t the best either, same with Yoshi’s airspeed. If a character has ridiculous combos and insane pressure, there has to be an Achilles heel. As in Fox/Ness recovery, Olimar disadvantage and weight (though needs a little more tweaking, but not that much, just a little less damage output, keep kill power the same).

3. Skill. The character appropriately rewards you for skill. I believe lower tiers should be low skill floor characters that are easy to dominate with, but higher tiers should require more skill, in an ideal Smash game. As in Cloud, Ganondorf, Chrom would be lower tier characters, but that wouldn’t mean they’re trash. Think of them as B tiers. No character would be unviable, and with a variety of modes the lower tiers could have a chance to shine (doubles, FFA, squad strike, stamina battle). However learning a tough to learn character would reward you adequately, (Ken, Duck Hunt, Sheik, Toon Link, Peach, Bayonetta, Fox etc) with a top tier. Regardless, this is a hypothetical situation that doesn’t quite exist in Ultimate (Lucina, low skill floor, skill ceiling is based more on fundamentals than on character specific traits) and so this last category isn’t quite as important. But the first two are particularly important. I start with Fox, anyone else have contenders for most balanced character?

 

[Rizen]

He was top tier at release. At release he was 2nd maybe 3rd, with it being Pichu, Snake/Olimar. This was due to the unpatched Nikita, which still needs end lag nerfs after the patch. It was unpopular opinion, and was popular to underrate Snake just because. The devs love Snake as far as I know, due to the character being overturned in various ways and them being so hesitant to nerf him. Compare Snake’s patch changes to Duck Hunt. Both are hard zoners. One is much better. Which one received no real buffs with multiple nerfs and which received consolation buffs with light nerfs? I may be sarcastic, but those thoughts were on the back of my mind as I watched Raito v MVD, patch notes resounding in my head. Like I said, there are many aspects of imbalance within the game, and some are popular to gloss over while others are popular to hate on. Since this isn’t a previous installation where technology, funds, or popularity aren’t a problem and the developers namely Sakurai showed such passion in creating this amazing game, I have hope they’ll realize a few mistakes and fix them.

Speaking of balance, who’s the most balanced character in Ultimate. I believe it’s Fox right now, with his strengths and weaknesses lining up to produce great results with enough skill (Light), but still be overall balanced. Fox’s fall Speed is both a benefit and a weakness, being easier to combo and less time to set up recovery offstage, but insane pressure onstage. He is light but that is offset by his amazing offensive potential. I can and most likely will go on about Fox’s balance, and others may have different viewpoints, but I’d like to lay down a foundation for what I use to define balance.
1. Every move performs a useful purpose, and has sufficient counterplay.

2. The characters overall ‘stats’ have strengths and weaknesses to them. Sonic is the fastest in the game but not the best, Bowser is heaviest and isn’t the best either, same with Yoshi’s airspeed. If a character has ridiculous combos and insane pressure, there has to be an Achilles heel. As in Fox/Ness recovery, Olimar disadvantage and weight (though needs a little more tweaking, but not that much, just a little less damage output, keep kill power the same).

3. Skill. The character appropriately rewards you for skill. I believe lower tiers should be low skill floor characters that are easy to dominate with, but higher tiers should require more skill, in an ideal Smash game. As in Cloud, Ganondorf, Chrom would be lower tier characters, but that wouldn’t mean they’re trash. Think of them as B tiers. No character would be unviable, and with a variety of modes the lower tiers could have a chance to shine (doubles, FFA, squad strike, stamina battle). However learning a tough to learn character would reward you adequately, (Ken, Duck Hunt, Sheik, Toon Link, Peach, Bayonetta, Fox etc) with a top tier. Regardless, this is a hypothetical situation that doesn’t quite exist in Ultimate (Lucina, low skill floor, skill ceiling is based more on fundamentals than on character specific traits) and so this last category isn’t quite as important. But the first two are particularly important. I start with Fox, anyone else have contenders for most balanced character?

"Balanced" really depends on what power level you want the game at. You could balance it around top tiers and give everyone else buffs or balance it around mid tiers and nerf or buff the appropriate characters.

The easiest way as I see it would be to do the latter and balance it around high and mid tiers. Only nerfing top tiers who distinctly dominated results and buffing bad characters. Meet in the middle, so to speak.

As such comes to mind as a balanced character. He's well rounded, not too powerful and also not too exploitable.

 

[Hippieslayer]

Snake needs to have his overtuned stuff to work because he is stiff as hell with an aerial game that doesnt really work like any other characters.

Also "Ridley is underrated" is a statement just as memetic in nature as is "shulk has potential".

 

[Kiligar]

The funny thing is that Mario the starter character isn’t first to come to mind for balance due to his ridiculous ladders and funny cape shenanigans. Anyway as for , he is close to being perfectly balanced but not quite there. The side Special is what comes to mind first, with lacking kill power on Pit, extremely unsafe on shield, inconsistent super armor, excess off stage end lag and laggy projectile reflection animation. The down Special is a little too laggy, despite doubling as a shield and a reflector, Joker, K Rool and Palutena have the same but with offensive pressure via counter. A little less lag on the down Special. Also forward tilt is useless in the neutral and outclassed by Pit’s other moves due to end lag. Finally, Up-Smash was excessively nerfed from sm4sh, a little more knockback please because this move struggles to kill. With all those changes completed, Pit would be “Perfectly Balanced, as all things should be”.

 

[$.A.F.]

"Balanced" really depends on what power level you want the game at. You could balance it around top tiers and give everyone else buffs or balance it around mid tiers and nerf or buff the appropriate characters.

The easiest way as I see it would be to do the latter and balance it around high and mid tiers. Only nerfing top tiers who distinctly dominated results and buffing bad characters. Meet in the middle, so to speak.

As such comes to mind as a balanced character. He's well rounded, not too powerful and also not too exploitable.

I'm against nerfing characters because they can do stuff. Tiers will be here either way. I'd say buff the bad characters to at least be viable before we heavily nerf anyone. Unless every character became homogenous, this game and any FGC game for that matter will contain tiers. Even nerfing everyone supposedly to mid tier only makes it so that you take away obvious strengths. This game's hasn't been out half a year. Many characters have a lot of undiscovered techniques that we haven't found. Like Joker's gun loops. This new tech will invariably shift character positioning on the tier lists thus making us have even more to nerf. The cycle doesn't end until every character is completely the same in which case, the meta is technically more over centralized around one character than it ever would be. Nerfing everyone good will never be enough because people will always complain, and new top tiers will arise and continue the cycle.

 

[Nemesis561]

So by process of elimination hat leaves his thoughts of top-tiers generally what post people think now.
Ya know and finally..wait. Oh for the love of! why do so many pro players still put him in top-tier om thier lists

Shulk is top-tier "cuz potential" is the Smash meme that will just hever die.

Relax man he has tons of experience vs Nicko. So it isnt theory craft he has experienced it first hand

 

[$.A.F.]

Snake needs to have his overtuned stuff to work because he is stiff as hell with an aerial game that doesnt really work like any other characters.

Also "Ridley is underrated" is a statement just as memetic in nature as is "shulk has potential".

Ridley actually gets results though.
EDIT: It takes a lot more results to argue someone's top tier than literally just better than low tier. Trela, Vreyvus, etc. have done stuff with Ridley and achieved results where as Shulk just has nicko who isn't making consistent top 8s.

 

[The_Bookworm]

The down Special is a little too laggy, despite doubling as a shield and a reflector, Joker, K Rool and Palutena have the same but with offensive pressure via counter. A little less lag on the down Special.

His Orbitars can be often useful for landing, thanks to it's protection, pushboxes, and the fact that you can change your aerial momentum in the middle of the move. As a reflector, it is a little underwhelming, but it is good for other things.

Finally, Up-Smash was excessively nerfed from sm4sh, a little more knockback please because this move struggles to kill.

Up smash was not nerfed at all from SSB4. All it got in the transition was its knockback angles being changed, which makes it connect more reliably.

 

[Kiligar]

His Orbitars can be often useful for landing, thanks to it's protection, pushboxes, and the fact that you can change your aerial momentum in the middle of the move. As a reflector, it is a little underwhelming, but it is good for other things.

I feel it is close to outclassed by the examples I listed due to them being more rewarding against an aggressive opponent striking your landing. They can grab, but it’s the same for both. Due to the 23 frames of end lag, unless the opponent hard commits with an f-smash or something very laggy, you’ll struggle to get the punish. Shield has 11 frames of lag after the drop for a comparison, and shield can be cancelled into jump, roll, up smash/special or spot dodge. Impact Orbitars can’t do any of those cancels. The only benefit is that it avoids shield stun, which is only useful on attacks with a shield stun of 12 or more, which are once again usually hard commitments and shield can be cancelled into Nair and avoid the 11 frames. Basically, reduce the end lag a little bit, at least 5 frames less end lag.

Up smash was not nerfed at all from SSB4. All it got in the transition was its knockback angles being changed, which makes it connect more reliably.

If it wasn’t nerfed, then the move is simply lacking in kill potential. It’s range in the ground is near non-existent which makes it difficult to use Oos, with none on the back and very little in the front,meaning it mainly catches aerial opponents. It also isn’t as good of a disjoint as it seems since Pit’s head moves upward during the attack, to the extent that many attacks used on platform will graze his head as he uses the attack from underneath. It makes it easier to contest. With all these weaknesses in mind and its main strength being the fastest up-smash in the game, killing 5-10% earlier on average is a little adjustment that I think is fair.

 

[Hippieslayer]

Ridley actually gets results though.
EDIT: It takes a lot more results to argue someone's top tier than literally just better than low tier. Trela, Vreyvus, etc. have done stuff with Ridley and achieved results where as Shulk just has nicko who isn't making consistent top 8s.

Not comparing shulk and ridley in terms of viability though. Also didnt say anything about Ridleys viability on its own. But I think do think hes overrated by the very same people who think hes seen as underrated because as far as I can see most people seem to think that he is what he seems to be, that is an okay character.

Moreover, ofc Ridleys gonna have more representatives than Shulk for a number of reasons. You kinda have to account for that.

 

[ZephyrZ]

I'm going to try to keep this brief since it's no the point of the thread, but on the topic of buffs versus nerfs it's worth mentioning that sometimes nerfs are simply a far more practical answer then buffs, depending on the game's balance.

Let's say that in a hypothetical Fighting game, there's 20 mid tiers, 10 high tiers and 1 top tier. In this extreme example, let's say you have two options here - buff the 20 mid tiers into high tier or nerf the 1 top tier down to high tier. Both options will create a much more balanced game overall, but one of them is significantly easier to implement. It will also take much less development time while also decreasing the chances of accidentally overbuffing/overnerfing someone.

I definitely agree that buffs are still more ideal then nerfs overall but we should all probably accept that there are times where nerfing is the better option in practice.

 

[PsySmasher]

I think that could be high mid but he's not any better than that. He hits like , has the frame data of , and the range of . However, he is really held back by his movement speed and recovery. is a pretty balanced character overall in my opinion and I can realistically see him in high mid tier. I do not see him as the best super-heavyweight though.

Speaking of the best super-heavyweight, what is everyone's opinion on who it is? ()

Hmm... as someone who plays superheavies very often, I've always had a tough time coming up w/ a definitive ranking.

But as of right now... I'm gonna go with:
1.
2/3./ (been going back and forth on this one)
4/5./ (I think he's being seriously overrated ever since the Nairo set, but I don't think he's bad by any means)
6.
7.
8.

I'm not gonna go in depth right now (b/c it's 4:30 am right now and I need sleep), but if you really want my reasoning, just quote this post.

 

[Aaron1997]

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[$.A.F.]

Not comparing shulk and ridley in terms of viability though. Also didnt say anything about Ridleys viability on its own. But I think do think hes overrated by the very same people who think hes seen as underrated because as far as I can see most people seem to think that he is what he seems to be, that is an okay character.

Moreover, ofc Ridleys gonna have more representatives than Shulk for a number of reasons. You kinda have to account for that.

He's consistently ranked in lists as low tier when based on results he's literally top 30. Being a hard character to master will repel others, but so will supposedly being a low tier. Ridley actually has the results to back up being considered at least mid tier. Shulk has nothing in the ballpark of being top tier.

 

[SwagGuy99]

I think that could be high mid but he's not any better than that. He hits like , has the frame data of , and the range of . However, he is really held back by his movement speed and recovery. is a pretty balanced character overall in my opinion and I can realistically see him in high mid tier. I do not see him as the best super-heavyweight though.

Speaking of the best super-heavyweight, what is everyone's opinion on who it is? ()

Thanks for all of the responses, I was trying to see how similar my opinion was to everyone else's.

So here's my thoughts on this:

High Tier
1. So I've been playing Bowser a lot and he's pretty good. Definitely a solid high tier who has a lot of strong tools with a few major weaknesses keeping him from being any higher than mid high tier. He's very fast, hits like a truck, has some very good OOS options, has pretty good range, has a command grab, can kill pretty reliably around 100% or less, but survive until over 150% himself in most cases. . He's one of the bigger super-heavies though, so he gets juggled and comboed easily. Oh and he can break shields with f-smash and down-b.

2. He's basically a more consistent Bowser with different weaknesses. He falls slower so he gets juggled a bit easier and has a harder time landing. He kills a bit later than Bowser but has a better grab game. He has better edgeguarding but gets edgeguarded much harder himself. His tilts are faster but either have less range or speed than Bowser's. He lacks tough guy and good OOS options but has much better air speed. He also does have good shield break options similarly to Bowser.

Mid Tier
3. Ganondorf is one of the most balanced characters in Ultimate. Pretty good frame data and range but is really slow and has a bad recovery. His approach is OK but he struggles against projectiles somewhat. Not much to say here.

4. He's even slower than Ganon and has a very bad recovery but has a good grab game and revenge is very very good. Pretty average character overall. outside of these few things though.

5. King Dedede has very good ledgetrapping, edgeguarding, and range. Gordo is also useful for shield pressure or for forcing the opponent into disadvantage. However, Dedede's weaknesses are among the worst l=of all of the heavies outside of maybe K. Rool. He gets juggled and comboed due to his fast falling speed, his hurtbox is huge which doesn't help in these situations, he struggles to fight opponents at close range and he struggles against projectiles. His frame data is also kind of all over the place with some really fast (but not very useful attacks) but also with some slower (but more useful) attacks.

Low Mid Tier/Low Tier
6./7. / These character's issues aren't that they have super crippling weaknesses, it's more that they have nothing that stands out that much except for Charizard and his ground speed. They both have uses in their own rights, but they aren't exactly very good.

Low Tier

8. Basically Dedede but his weaknesses are magnified times 3. His recovery is still good and he has some good projectiles and edgeguarding but that's about it.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I don't think Ganon is good because of the Nairo set. I think he's good because:

- he has some of the best aerials in the game with some of the best range, active frames, power, damage, and hitboxes
- better disadvantage than other heavies due to his relatively slim profile and aforementioned aerials (+ a moderately safer wizkick, it's punishable but harder than in past games)
- jab being pretty ****ing good on block, lol
- his command grab leading to built-in mixups on a character that already kills you at like 60% or less
- absolutely nutty kill power and damage output
- the ability to acrue damage on soft reads, good option coverage vs most defensive choices when in advantage

He's got bad matchups and his recovery isn't the best, he also suffers against camping and projectiles because he's so tall and slow on the ground, this is 100% true. But here's how I think of Ganon:

To me, Ganon is like SF4 Seth, SF5 Laura/G/whatever, or a little like Brawl Snake. His disadvantages and weaknesses are pronounced and real and exploitable, and in theory he has a lot of bad matchups, but it doesn't matter all that much because his strengths are so strong and he can legitimately kill you by getting into an advantaged state one time.

This isn't Brawl or Smash 4 where defensive options are really ****ing good. There are no glides, you can't plank him, you can't roll away forever, or block forever, or whatever. It's not always possible to just sit outside of his bubble. This game's defensive choices are generally poor, which means that Ganon's normal gameplan is incredibly scary. If you're above Ganon you aren't safe, if you're in shield next to Ganon you aren't safe, you're not safe once you're over like 40%. It's a legit like, hope he doesn't read your defensive choice, all of which are punishable or risky, or you die.

Furthermore, when Ganon loses, it is always going to look really bad and difficult for him, and when he wins, it's going to look disgusting. That's why Light's victory against Nairo isn't as meaningful to me, because it's like, okay, but that's just what it looks like when Ganon loses. If he'd made a couple of reads on the offense that he didn't manage to get, Light would have died, but whatever. He's a swingy character. Seth has 850 HP so sometimes he loses in seconds and sometimes you never get a turn. Laura and G have no defensive options but their offense is incredible so sometimes they get down to like 10% HP without getting a turn and then activate and blow you up. That's what Ganon is.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I don't think Ganon is good because of the Nairo set. I think he's good because:

- he has some of the best aerials in the game with some of the best range, active frames, power, damage, and hitboxes
- better disadvantage than other heavies due to his relatively slim profile and aforementioned aerials (+ a moderately safer wizkick, it's punishable but harder than in past games)
- jab being pretty ****ing good on block, lol
- his command grab leading to built-in mixups on a character that already kills you at like 60% or less
- absolutely nutty kill power and damage output
- the ability to acrue damage on soft reads, good option coverage vs most defensive choices when in advantage

He's got bad matchups and his recovery isn't the best, he also suffers against camping and projectiles because he's so tall and slow on the ground, this is 100% true. But here's how I think of Ganon:

To me, Ganon is like SF4 Seth, SF5 Laura/G/whatever, or a little like Brawl Snake. His disadvantages and weaknesses are pronounced and real and exploitable, and in theory he has a lot of bad matchups, but it doesn't matter all that much because his strengths are so strong and he can legitimately kill you by getting into an advantaged state one time.

This isn't Brawl or Smash 4 where defensive options are really ****ing good. There are no glides, you can't plank him, you can't roll away forever, or block forever, or whatever. It's not always possible to just sit outside of his bubble. This game's defensive choices are generally poor, which means that Ganon's normal gameplan is incredibly scary. If you're above Ganon you aren't safe, if you're in shield next to Ganon you aren't safe, you're not safe once you're over like 40%. It's a legit like, hope he doesn't read your defensive choice, all of which are punishable or risky, or you die.

Furthermore, when Ganon loses, it is always going to look really bad and difficult for him, and when he wins, it's going to look disgusting. That's why Light's victory against Nairo isn't as meaningful to me, because it's like, okay, but that's just what it looks like when Ganon loses. If he'd made a couple of reads on the offense that he didn't manage to get, Light would have died, but whatever. He's a swingy character. Seth has 850 HP so sometimes he loses in seconds and sometimes you never get a turn. Laura and G have no defensive options but their offense is incredible so sometimes they get down to like 10% HP without getting a turn and then activate and blow you up. That's what Ganon is.

This lines up with something I've said(/been thinking, I admittedly don't post in this thread all that much) for a while now: a superheavy like Ganondorf has a footnote attached to their entire matchup spread that basically says "don't **** up or you die anyway, I don't care if it's 70-30 in your favor on paper." My currently favored buzzword to describe it is volatile -- they either blow you up or get blown up, with very little middle ground or extended footsie games.

There was a discussion a few pages back about how pre-3.0.0 Sheik was meh because even though she has the speed and frame data to smother a lot of characters and run away with neutral, her poor reward on hit makes her less of a threat and mean you can sometimes get away with not exactly respecting her options. I think Ganondorf et al have the inverse of that -- poor speed and frame data, but their reward on hit is so insane that you have to respect them more than you otherwise might.

 

[Rizen]

I have Ganon and K.Rool secondaries so I'll talk about them.

's problem is he has poor option coverage paired with the biggest hurtbox in the game. All his moves are good at hitting a specific area and nowhere else. Utilt hits a little in front and above K.Rool but this leaves him extremely vulnerable to cross ups. Jab is a nice fast f4 jab but has short range directly infront of him. Ftilt and Fsmash can be angled but generally poke out in a strait line. Similarly his aerials hit in their directions but leave big blind spots at diagonal angles. Even worse, many attacks have sour spots; the patch was a step in the right direction but not enough. Nair is good but it's also very weak. You're a blimp who requires precision to hit opponents. K.Rool needs a good GTFO tool.
He also has too much endlag on several attacks.

K.Rool's weird. He has some seemingly OP tools if you make the right call. Uthrow alone deals 19.2% so he has a dangerous grab game mix up. Ftilt, if it was on a character without the biggest hurtbox in the game, would be really good. It has early belly armor and works like a counter. K.Rool has several attacks with very quick startups or early belly armor. There are times when I'm being juggled as Ganon and wish I had K.Rool's Nair, counter or crownerang to land with. He's got a counter/reflector which again would be great except it only activates on his belly and his hurtbox is huge. Dsmash is like Ridley's, although his hands are sour spots that deal about 5% but it's good for ledge coverage. A f4 jab that combos for 14% iirc. And he's the second heaviest character with a very long range recovery.

Playing K.Rool is like playing rock, paper, scissors except if you both choose the same option you always win but if you choose different options you lose. If that makes sense :/

's an extremely polarizing character. His smash attacks have huge range and are extremely powerful. He also has long limbs with sword-like reach. This is balanced by him being slow, immobile and with a terrible recovery. He's the definitive 'read your opponent and win' character. There are times when he feels super powerful and times when he's completely shutdown. Ganon also has some good burst options with a command grab mixup, wizfoot and DA. His reward is too darn good for him to be lower than mid tier but he can also get wrecked offstage.

 

[Browny]

Playing (not much admittedly) against the joker hordes and watching dyr on the weekend has made me think that people are letting joker recover for free way too easily, and MVD vs dyr was a pretty big example. The characters recovery is known to be pretty average but people are treating him like early K.Rool where they just stand on stage and complain about it not being fair he can recover from so low. I'm just sitting here wondering why they don't do anything about it.

As Incineroar for example, I have gotten a stupidly high proportion of KO's by using drop down lariat where his upb will leave him, and if I happen to miss, I upb immediately and sometimes poke him out of his tether and he just falls to his death. If the lariat hits him away, he can't recover. If it hits into the stage and he techs, he can't recover. Nair works here too of course, lariat is typically a higher % option but comes with a much greater risk. When the % of working is almost 100 though, the risk is outweighed massively. If he happens to have arsen out, just drop a hitbox on the ledge and its one of the easiest ones in the game to 2 frame.

So I compare this for example to MVD who kept on trying to nikita joker but it was just too slow. I think maybe 1-2 times in the set he actually hit him with it, almost every time he recovered for free and when a character with a 'bad' recovery is only losing 2 out of 12 or so stocks to nikita, then clearly something is wrong. A run-off bair will easily catch him and there's not much joker can do. The jokers I play eventually catch on and start airdodging to the ledge, in which case its painfully obvious they are going for it, so nair/lariat for the 2-frame.

I'm seeing people run off to edgeguard joker and that's just not how it should be done. You just stand at the ledge and wait until you have figured out what option they are going with as joker only ever has 2 options and the time window for one of them is very limited. So you cut that one off, then punish the second. If they are coming in close, they're going to airdodge. If they are out of airdodge range, you can quickly figure out how long the tether will be and just run off and bair it. I feel like people might be hesitant to do that because the enemy will just tech but on any stage that isn't kalos/YI:B, joker isn't going to make it back when he can't reverse the hook.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Why Ganondorf is good pretty much comes down to the engine, general speed buffs, and his increase in hitboxes, N Air, crazy range and kill potential of his new sword Smash attacks, and Wizard's Foot. He's not really a deep character. If you're good at reads and have good fundamentals, you can play Ganondorf easily. And that's whats attractive currently... easy to play characters.

I mean, I said it before but with my experience with Diddy, I've easily picked up Wolf and adapted just fine with him. Wolf is also a fundamentally strong character, but with an insane neutral to boot which makes the pace of the whole match go as he wants. With Ganondorf, it's the pure pressure and intimidation, and even mindgames. He's pretty much a heavy weight Smash 4 Mewtwo, without a projectile. Wolf is pretty much a stronger but slower Smash 4 Diddy, with an actual gun and no Banana.

Anyway, these comparisons are getting out of hand

 

[Glerma]

I never really though about Ganondorf that way and kind of want to practice with him a bit more now. The biggest thing I struggle with is focusing on my opponent and looking for patterns/reads. So playing a character that lives and dies off of reads would help...

 

[Lacrimosa]

And number 1 on Void's tier-list is of course Olimar. I think he's the first top-smasher that puts him first and not Peach or Pichu. He also says that Olimar has basically zero bad MUs. I said earlier that I think other zoners and defensive characters will still get him, but these characters are rare and they aren't used at all by the "top-top" players.
I still wish Light would use Fox's Shine more. I think he barely used that at all against Shuton but I think the more this game develops the better will be Fox at this MU.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I never really though about Ganondorf that way and kind of want to practice with him a bit more now. The biggest thing I struggle with is focusing on my opponent and looking for patterns/reads. So playing a character that lives and dies off of reads would help...

Keep in mind that most of "good" Ganondorf players already played him ironically in the previous Smash games. I don't really think that Ultimate Ganondorf is all that much better, IF anything better than Melee Ganondorf, but it's a great change for many to finally play this character competitively. Even Brawl and Smash 4 Ganondorf had niche uses, as he wasn't terrible with his moveset at all, he was just slow, exploitable and defensive options being so strong was a big blow against his character archetype.

I personally think that Diddy Kong is better than Ganondorf. But then again, who am I? I'm clearly biased lol

 

[Frihetsanka]

I think he's the first top-smasher that puts him first and not Peach or Pichu. He also says that Olimar has basically zero bad MUs.

Myran did it in February/March,

There was a problem fetching the tweet

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[Glerma]

Keep in mind that most of "good" Ganondorf players already played him ironically in the previous Smash games. I don't really think that Ultimate Ganondorf is all that much better, IF anything better than Melee Ganondorf, but it's a great change for many to finally play this character competitively. Even Brawl and Smash 4 Ganondorf had niche uses, as he wasn't terrible with his moveset at all, he was just slow, exploitable and defensive options being so strong was a big blow against his character archetype.

I personally think that Diddy Kong is better than Ganondorf. But then again, who am I? I'm clearly biased lol

True, but this is more for when I am playing with friends rather than tournaments. I have yet to go to a local even, I will be in a bit under a month and am looking forward to being destroyed :D But this is the first time I actually considered Ganon's strengths rather than just as a meme. Although he still is a meme if we are being honest...
PS: Sorry it is so big, I just really like it and am not sure how to shrink it/at work and do not want to take the time to figure it out. I am probably breaking some rule or another...sorry mods

 

[Emblem Lord]

I don't think Ganon is good because of the Nairo set. I think he's good because:

- he has some of the best aerials in the game with some of the best range, active frames, power, damage, and hitboxes
- better disadvantage than other heavies due to his relatively slim profile and aforementioned aerials (+ a moderately safer wizkick, it's punishable but harder than in past games)
- jab being pretty ****ing good on block, lol
- his command grab leading to built-in mixups on a character that already kills you at like 60% or less
- absolutely nutty kill power and damage output
- the ability to acrue damage on soft reads, good option coverage vs most defensive choices when in advantage

He's got bad matchups and his recovery isn't the best, he also suffers against camping and projectiles because he's so tall and slow on the ground, this is 100% true. But here's how I think of Ganon:

To me, Ganon is like SF4 Seth, SF5 Laura/G/whatever, or a little like Brawl Snake. His disadvantages and weaknesses are pronounced and real and exploitable, and in theory he has a lot of bad matchups, but it doesn't matter all that much because his strengths are so strong and he can legitimately kill you by getting into an advantaged state one time.

This isn't Brawl or Smash 4 where defensive options are really ****ing good. There are no glides, you can't plank him, you can't roll away forever, or block forever, or whatever. It's not always possible to just sit outside of his bubble. This game's defensive choices are generally poor, which means that Ganon's normal gameplan is incredibly scary. If you're above Ganon you aren't safe, if you're in shield next to Ganon you aren't safe, you're not safe once you're over like 40%. It's a legit like, hope he doesn't read your defensive choice, all of which are punishable or risky, or you die.

Furthermore, when Ganon loses, it is always going to look really bad and difficult for him, and when he wins, it's going to look disgusting. That's why Light's victory against Nairo isn't as meaningful to me, because it's like, okay, but that's just what it looks like when Ganon loses. If he'd made a couple of reads on the offense that he didn't manage to get, Light would have died, but whatever. He's a swingy character. Seth has 850 HP so sometimes he loses in seconds and sometimes you never get a turn. Laura and G have no defensive options but their offense is incredible so sometimes they get down to like 10% HP without getting a turn and then activate and blow you up. That's what Ganon is.

SF4 Seth had a toolbox that made even Akuma jealous.

He had an answer for literally every situation and top tier buttons.

That is definitely not Ganon.

That's Brawl MK.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

SF4 Seth had a toolbox that made even Akuma jealous.

He had an answer for literally every situation and top tier buttons.

That is definitely not Ganon.

That's Brawl MK.

Hahaha, that's fair enough, but I was trying to illustrate that Ganon is volatile in the same way that Seth is. Either he blows you up or you blow him up, especially vs. other high damage or Stun characters like Makoto, Viper, Gouken, etc.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Do not remind me of the abomination that was C.Viper.

Left/right lottery nonsense.

On Topic: I think Gabon has more juice simply due to large hitboxes combined with high damage per hit. In previous games many characters had much better hitboxes and comparable damage. Ultimate has tuned this better so he is able to shine more.

 

[Kankato]

This lines up with something I've said(/been thinking, I admittedly don't post in this thread all that much) for a while now: a superheavy like Ganondorf has a footnote attached to their entire matchup spread that basically says "don't **** up or you die anyway, I don't care if it's 70-30 in your favor on paper." My currently favored buzzword to describe it is volatile -- they either blow you up or get blown up, with very little middle ground or extended footsie games.

There was a discussion a few pages back about how pre-3.0.0 Sheik was meh because even though she has the speed and frame data to smother a lot of characters and run away with neutral, her poor reward on hit makes her less of a threat and mean you can sometimes get away with not exactly respecting her options. I think Ganondorf et al have the inverse of that -- poor speed and frame data, but their reward on hit is so insane that you have to respect them more than you otherwise might.

I enjoy your point about volatility because it's an effective way to describe matchups outside of spread. I like to use mirror matches to explain volatility: the difference between melee Fox dittos and melee Samus dittos is that a mistake in one costs a stock but a mistake in the other costs percent and positioning (this is oversimplified but you hopefully understand what I mean).

 

[PK Bash]

Umebura Japan Major // Over 1k entrants // Biggest Smash event ever in Japan // May 1-2

Streams

https://www.twitch.tv/vgbootcamp
https://www.twitch.tv/shi_gaming
https://www.twitch.tv/watchssbm

Pools Starts April 30th 10:30PM EST

Players

MKleo
Cosmos
Zackray
Shuton
Tea
KEN
Abadango
Choco
Kirihara
Lea
Raito
Nietono
Kameme
Gackt
T
ZAKI
Umeki
TSU
Kome
Rizeasu
Kie
Etsuji
Shogun
Gunguir
HIKARU
Kept
Sigma
Eim
Takara
Kuro
RAIN
Shky

Japanese tournaments are always the best for seeing all kinds of characters in action and I would strongly encourage everyone here to watch Umebura to help inform your opinions on certain characters, as we have multiple representatives for pretty much the whole roster here.

Not only that, but Japanese tournaments are always hype AF.


Using the player and character spreadsheet produced by Juddy96 (found in Aaron1997’s Reddit post), I’ve gone through and listed each instance of each character at Umebura (ignoring those who are greyed out as they will not be in attendance).
This can be found here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1W_lg_QcibAJoIi-ulsidRBK18w6XEOuYJDqmUrXyBgc/edit?usp=sharing
“Solo” indicates the number of instances where that character only is listed for a player.
“Multiple” indicates where the character is listed alongside any number of other characters.
So it should not be assumed that all 4 Marios are pocket Marios, as any of the four players might in fact main Mario but use other characters as pockets.

Some findings that I personally find interesting:
Zero Suit Samus was the most surprising to me, along with , both of which are tied with Lucina for second most-represented character overall at this Umebura (20 apiece). Not only that, but, quite unlike Lucina, the vast majority of these players play ZSS or Shulk solo, not in addition to other characters. These two characters are probably the most notable differentials from the USA metagame, where neither of these characters seem to appear much at all.
Keep an eye and see how far these characters get in bracket. Will be very interesting.

Wolf is still dominant, primarily as a solo character but also notably used in conjunction with others frequently.

Japan is woke to the power of Greninja. Another interesting deviation from the western metagame.

Link, Yoshi and Cloud are remarkably common considering they’re not that good, appearing as often as Inkling or Snake and more often than Palutena or Pichu. I think Link and Cloud enjoy elevated status here as the fan-favourite iconic protagonists of immortal games, and to some extent this can be applied to Yoshi as well, but keep in mind just how common they are before getting excited when a Yoshi breaks Top 16 or something, as that would almost certainly be an anomaly.

Olimar is very near the rock-bottom of the list, despite his strength. I do not think this has anything to do with how ‘difficult’ Olimar is to play; moreso that he just does not appeal as much as the other characters (and other zoners – Richter comes to mind).

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Daisy and Peach combined would match Palutena and Pokemon Trainer, ranking in the top cut.

Fox is still immensely popular, despite being relatively quiet in the game thus far.

Despite early hype, Mega Man and Ike cannot seem to separate themselves from the pack. This would indicate to me that they do not rank in the same stratum as Wolf and Lucina, as some have suggested. Or that they're just unappealing to most players. Could be either. Could be both.

Diddy Kong is now as popular as the Miis. What a timeline.

 

[$.A.F.]

Japanese tournaments are always the best for seeing all kinds of characters in action and I would strongly encourage everyone here to watch Umebura to help inform your opinions on certain characters, as we have multiple representatives for pretty much the whole roster here.

Not only that, but Japanese tournaments are always hype AF.


Using the player and character spreadsheet produced by Juddy96 (found in Aaron1997’s Reddit post), I’ve gone through and listed each instance of each character at Umebura (ignoring those who are greyed out as they will not be in attendance).
This can be found here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1W_lg_QcibAJoIi-ulsidRBK18w6XEOuYJDqmUrXyBgc/edit?usp=sharing
“Solo” indicates the number of instances where that character only is listed for a player.
“Multiple” indicates where the character is listed alongside any number of other characters.
So it should not be assumed that all 4 Marios are pocket Marios, as any of the four players might in fact main Mario but use other characters as pockets.

Some findings that I personally find interesting:
Zero Suit Samus was the most surprising to me, along with , both of which are tied with Lucina for second most-represented character overall at this Umebura (20 apiece). Not only that, but, quite unlike Lucina, the vast majority of these players play ZSS or Shulk solo, not in addition to other characters. These two characters are probably the most notable differentials from the USA metagame, where neither of these characters seem to appear much at all.
Keep an eye and see how far these characters get in bracket. Will be very interesting.

Wolf is still dominant, primarily as a solo character but also notably used in conjunction with others frequently.

Japan is woke to the power of Greninja. Another interesting deviation from the western metagame.

Link, Yoshi and Cloud are remarkably common considering they’re not that good, appearing as often as Inkling or Snake and more often than Palutena or Pichu. I think Link and Cloud enjoy elevated status here as the fan-favourite iconic protagonists of immortal games, and to some extent this can be applied to Yoshi as well, but keep in mind just how common they are before getting excited when a Yoshi breaks Top 16 or something, as that would almost certainly be an anomaly.

Olimar is very near the rock-bottom of the list, despite his strength. I do not think this has anything to do with how ‘difficult’ Olimar is to play; moreso that he just does not appeal as much as the other characters (and other zoners – Richter comes to mind).

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Daisy and Peach combined would match Palutena and Pokemon Trainer, ranking in the top cut.

Fox is still immensely popular, despite being relatively quiet in the game thus far.

Despite early hype, Mega Man and Ike cannot seem to separate themselves from the pack. This would indicate to me that they do not rank in the same stratum as Wolf and Lucina, as some have suggested. Or that they're just unappealing to most players. Could be either. Could be both.

Diddy Kong is now as popular as the Miis. What a timeline.

>Takes a lot of skill and dedication to play
>Palutena

Pick one

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Since I'm someone who uses exclusively I'll say this. His aerial game is terrible except for flamethrower/bair mixups but his ground game is surprisingly solid.
Ftilt can essentially be thrown out for free and is a good reaction tilt, utilt and usmash are excellent anti air options and the endlag has been buffed to the point where it's very easy to get hit with a tilt if you try to rush him after he uses it. You need a projectile, an excellent fastfall mixup or need to be on the ground in order to punish it properly. Flamethrower is a good shield punisher but it's laggy and if you're too close to the opponent they'll just dodge roll around it. Flare blitz is an easily punishable option that can kill if you catch the landing but it just seems not worth it like in smash 4. Fly has surprising launch power and is also a decent anti air option but it's just as risky as flare blitz and if you miss you're screwed.
Tl;Dr zard has good ground options but unlike bowser he can't get around shields easy and if you're opponents gameplan boils down to "pop him in the air and spam shield, he can't get around that" then you definitely need some shield breaking buffs.

 

[Kankato]

Slightly off topic but aside from the US, EU and Japan, what are some other regions that have strong smash scenes? Does anyone have the connections needed to talk to, say, Korean or Filipino players? What do their metas look like?

 

[$.A.F.]

Slightly off topic but aside from the US, EU and Japan, what are some other regions that have strong smash scenes? Does anyone have the connections needed to talk to, say, Korean or Filipino players? What do their metas look like?

I don’t know much about the scene as a whole, but it’s birthed really good players like MKLeo, Serge, Javi and Maister.

 

[Hippieslayer]

He's consistently ranked in lists as low tier when based on results he's literally top 30. Being a hard character to master will repel others, but so will supposedly being a low tier. Ridley actually has the results to back up being considered at least mid tier. Shulk has nothing in the ballpark of being top tier.

Tier lists are whack, but okay yeah good point.

Imo both should just be lumped into mid Tier for now. I dont think its sensible without accounting for representation. And Ridley is a Long awaited new character and main antagonist of a cherished game series. Also hes fairly easy to pick up and feels rewarding to play.

 

[The_Bookworm]