Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[PK Gaming]

The post from PK Gaming seems to be excessively agressive, just something I noticed. It would be best if everyone stays calm and focus on the subject, and not attacking people.

How so? Calling out disingenuous arguments isn't being aggressive, and I in no way attacked his character. If anything responding to arguments with "learn the matchup" plays into the "git gud" mentality, which isn't useful for discussion

 

[Kiligar]

How so? Calling out disingenuous arguments isn't being aggressive, and I in no way attacked his character. If anything responding to arguments with "learn the matchup" plays into the "git gud" mentality, which isn't useful for discussion

Maybe it wasn’t your intention, but your post came across as condescending. “You should take a break”, “I can’t take your arguments seriously” are dismissive of DelugeTN. Your points may be valid, and that’s why we discuss with each other, but disregarding others viewpoints eliminates a discussion at all. What should be done is that everyone answers thinking of the opposite viewpoint . Think from the other perspective when you discuss with others. Think from the perspective of the Olimar main as well as vice verse, from the opponent. My viewpoint I contributed is that the character is a little too strong. Not way too strong. Not absolutely broken. But a few adjustments could be made to him for the better, and not just to him. The game itself can have several adjustments made to it. Each side has valuable points, but I believe that we’re too focused on Olimar right now. Everyone is here after all. Who’s benefited from the patch, and who’s fallen?

As for Ridley, he’s underestimated by many. The character does have several problems, but also several strengths. When faced by a good Ridley main, with a decent punish game the character is a menace. The jab and side Special are two essential moves in his kit, as is his Fair which can be very threatening for edgegaurding. The fireballs are also solid offstage. His smash attacks require reads or hard punished, but they get the job done, particularly forward smash. His hitboxes are huge, some of the biggest in the game in comparison with their speed. Ridley could use a couple small buffs, but doesn’t need an overhaul, he’s not as awful as he’s made out to be. And he isn’t slow.

 

[NairWizard]

Will reply to PK's post separately; don't want to derail the conversation.

stuff.

My advice: dial back a bit. When Joker came out, you eagerly and emphatically shouted that he couldn't ever be anything higher than low tier. Within less than 24 hours, you said that you had come around but would never see him as anything higher than mid tier. The next day, you said that he was probably high tier and that you were going to main him. What strikes me about this isn't that you changed your mind--intelligent people do change their mind in the face of solid evidence. What's striking is how convinced you were that you were right at every turn.

Your conviction leaves a bad impression on the folks in this thread--especially since you have no corroborating evidence for some of your claims. If you can't post with more evidence, then posting with less conviction would solve the problem too. For example, consider asking others for their opinion instead of offering your own, and then talking about specific points:

"What parts of Olimar's kit seem overtuned to you?"
"His up-smash is broken, why can he spam it safely?"
"To get a really broken up-smash, he has to have Purple Pikmin. Purples are definitely overtuned, but it's by design. They're meant to encourage you to approach Olimar just like the threat of Cloud's Limit charge is meant to make you approach Cloud in neutral. If you put enough pressure on Olimar then he'll only have one Purple out at best, and you can prepare for the up-smash when it's on deck."

This is useful discourse.

You could also talk about things that people could do against Olimar that they're not doing right now, like abusing his bad roll (we all saw Ally's Snake tear through Olimars at Pound by abusing that roll).

You're not doing any of that. Right now it seems like you're just here in this thread to shout your opinion, instead of to teach, learn, and engage.

 

[PK Gaming]

Maybe it wasn’t your intention, but your post can across as condescending. “You should take a break”, “I can’t take your arguments seriously”

I can see how you'd think that, but the "you should take a break" comment isn't a dunk. I genuinely believe that disengaging from a discussion that upsets you and coming back with a clearer head is crucial. I've personally been in DelugeTN's shoes before (more times than I can count) so it's not like i'm saying this out of spite or anger.

SolidSense basically covered it better than I could have but basically arguments completely born from emotion aren't productive. It's a net loss for literally everyone included and derails discussions.

 

[Kiligar]

Since we’re talking about Olimar, I’ve brought some source material from one of the best Olimars in the world as well as an Olimar frame data source. This video compromises the basics of why Olimar is a top tier, although released based on the demo it holds true today.

Here’s plenty of info about Olimar’s moveset.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1YzDw_-Wjv8uzrdeCPQivBPk40lYC_mN8gCIyEF__CIA

 

[Kankato]

I firmly believe this character's future depends on the anti-sword tech that people discover with them. Yoshi has a really strong air game that is nulled by Roy/Lucina/maybe Cloud and their giant air buttons, but if you can keep them in disadvantage or offstage you can rack tons of damage. Considering sword characters are never leaving it's best to adapt now then hope for nerfs.

 

[Kiligar]

I firmly believe this character's future depends on the anti-sword tech that people discover with them. Yoshi has a really strong air game that is nulled by Roy/Lucina/maybe Cloud and their giant air buttons, but if you can keep them in disadvantage or offstage you can rack tons of damage. Considering sword characters are never leaving it's best to adapt now then hope for nerfs.

Yoshi is underrated. I thought he was 4th best in the game for some time. He has so many different strengths that create a solid character. Gimping with Up Special perhaps? Or camping with Up Special more v swordies. Whiff punish them with Yoshi’s great aerials. Juggling them shouldn’t be too difficult either. I don’t think the Yoshi v Swordie matchup is as bad as most think.

 

[Rizen]

I've fought 3 different s offline, seen several tournament videos and have some impressions on the character. He's an interesting design; a character who's slightly under powered 2/3rds of the time and overpowered 1/3rd. As many have, I'd compare him to Sheik with extra killing power in exchange for agility. The gun's underwhelming without Arsene but his other projectile is good for damage. Due to its downward trajectory I could see Yoshi's Story and Lylat being strong stages for him because the sloping sides. He has good combos but I think drag down Uairs aren't as good as they first seem because DI. Fsmash is strong and he can kill early with Arsene but might have some trouble chasing opponents down.
Joker can go deep, is quick and edge guards hard. A big part of his gameplan should be getting opponents offstage.
You bet your Arsene he's strong when powered up. He can kill around 90% with a lot of moves and gets good damage. Arsene Joker is easily a top tier and he will get Arsene. The damage to him alone guarentees Arsene unless he's gimed before roughly 70%.

Joker has strengths but is also very exploitable. His only recovery is tethering the ledge and he must travel to the same spot under the ledge every single time. It's very easy to hold the ledge then drop down and hit him, no need for 2 frames. Gun in the air has to fire before dodging and falls the whole time so it's not a great recovery aid.
Rebel's guard is very fast at f3 but extremely punishable on wiff with 33f endlag. You have to watch Joker and react when he's no longer blue. It's good vs big single projectiles like Gordos but not projectiles with short endlag. YL can throw a projectile to bait it and rush in for a tether grab or charge an arrow to get around the counter, which is laggy too. Like all counters, RG puts Joker at risk and is best used in situations when the opponent's limited. Its long duration is great for when both characters are in the air. RG is not the amazing anti projectile zoning tool people make it out to be.
Joker's hitboxes are limited so he's not oppressive like Lucina. Even with arsene he's at risk of getting hit himself up close. Joker's a weird quasi rushdown/jack of all trades, master of none. This means he'll get beaten by stronger options from other characters but has good tools for any situation.

I think Joker's upper mid tier. High tier's not out of the question but there's a lot of spacing and counterplay vs him. He's a very well balanced DLC character, good for Nintendo. He is strong enough to win but exploitable enough to not be overpowered.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Some notable upsets at Come to Papa 3

Mr. Bones 2-1 Samsora

EKing 2-1 Myran out at 65th.

The Story is Samsora and Myran actullay facef off in the very first set in top 128 in s
bracket due to seeding jank of the round-robin format of the pools. Samsora beat Myran and this EKing got a big uspet over Myran.

 

[Omastar]

Some notable upsets at Come to Papa 3

Mr. Bones 2-1 Samsora

EKing 2-1 Myran out at 65th.

The Story is Samsora and Myran actullay facef off in the very first set in top 128 in s
bracket due to seeding jank of the round-robin format of the pools. Samsora beat Myran and this EKing got a big uspet over Myran.

Scatt also just took out MVD 2-0 right now.

 

[Gleam]

I think people underestimate because I think it is so easy to make comparisons to other characters and bring something out of it.

For example, you could argue that vs is not that bad a match up. has a decent projectile in crown, blunderbuss can be problematic, he's got his super Armour, a recovery that even with its nerf can be a bit of an issue in gimping.

And it's like if can give Ridley any kind of trouble and this is supposed to be a horrible Low Tier character, than by definition, too must be a garbage character.

But there's a reason is ranked #62 currently on Orion and is ranked #30 (who has dropped a bit from #26)

Because it's clear Ridley's advantageous state has been more beneficial to him in the long run in comparison to what his flaws might have pushed him down to normally.

 

[Aaron1997]

Btw Eking is a from Puerto Rico. Man Outside of Shuton vs Tea, Olimar's Record vs Pac at level is awful

Also Raito2-0 Goblin pretty easily.

 

[QualityQ]

The Story is Samsora and Myran actullay facef off in the very first set in top 128 in s
bracket due to seeding jank of the round-robin format of the pools. Samsora beat Myran and this EKing got a big uspet over Myran.

This implies manipulation from the TOs when the real culprit is Samsora, so let me explain how this happened.

The tournament was designed with Round-Robin pools, where the top 2 of each pool were then placed in the "pro bracket." This design is more friendly towards new players because they get to play 6+ games against people with varying skill rather than going 0-2 twice & being eliminated.

Samsora was winning his pool as expected, until one of the last games where he was against Ruther ( ). In this game, Samsora first 2-stocked with his usual , but then decided for some reason to play for the next two games, had multiple SDs and lost both games. This caused Ruther to take 1st in the pool and Samsora to take 2nd. It is very likely had Samsora used peach he would have won the pool.

The pro bracket was designed where each 1st-place player plays the 2nd-place player from another pool. Myran took first in his pool, and thus Samsora-Myran was a first set in top 128. I'll note here that there's no rule against what Samsora chose to do.

There are benefits and disadvantages of the pool system used for CTP3. On the plus side, many players got to play extra games rather than getting destroyed immediately. The cost of this is round-robin pool manipulation which caused Myran-Samsora as top-128. I personally think this was a decision by Samsora and not caused by the tournament setup, however.

 

[Kankato]

Yoshi is underrated. I thought he was 4th best in the game for some time. He has so many different strengths that create a solid character. Gimping with Up Special perhaps? Or camping with Up Special more v swordies. Whiff punish them with Yoshi’s great aerials. Juggling them shouldn’t be too difficult either. I don’t think the Yoshi v Swordie matchup is as bad as most think.

I agree! Hanging out in Yoshi-cord and gathering data is super helpful, and I wouldn't main the character myself if I didn't believe in them. I do think if swords are a permanent problem it'll handicap the character immensely, but I think Yoshi is resilient enough to be plenty viable long term.

Personally I think they're either A+ or S- tier.

 

[NotLiquid]

I'm only just tuning in to Come to Papa 3 but has dyr run Joker the entire tournament? Getting a guaranteed 5th spot with him at a 499 entrant major is pretty damn notable (even if almost every top seed drowned due to bracket jank).

 

[The_Bookworm]

Other upsets I noticed:

Thexan 2-1 ZAKI
Dath 2-1 Fatality (Not too big of an upset, but notable)
Neos 2-0 Ryo
Pellonian 2-0 Ryo (Eliminated at 65th place)
Kobe 2-0 Goblin (Eliminated at 25th place)
Nibble 2-0 Phantom (Eliminated at 49th place)

I'm only just tuning in to Come to Papa 3 but has dyr run Joker the entire tournament? Getting a guaranteed 5th spot with him at a 499 entrant major is pretty damn notable (even if almost every top seed drowned due to bracket jank).

Yep. Solo Joker.

 

[KirbySquad101]

Other upsets I noticed:

Thexan 2-1 ZAKI
Dath 2-1 Fatality (Not too big of an upset, but notable)
Neos 2-0 Ryo
Pellonian 2-0 Ryo (Eliminated at 65th place)
Kobe 2-0 Goblin (Eliminated at 25th place)
Nibble 2-0 Phantom (Eliminated at 49th place)


Yep. Solo Joker.

Just a small correction, Ryo actually uses instead of ; he mentioned in one of his videos that he didn't like how linear Ike is in Ultimate, so he switched over to Corrin.

 

[ZephyrZ]

There are comparisons to make between Ridley and other superheavies, but I think people are focusing on the wrong things and underselling some of his strengths that make him different from them.

He's got a safe poke in D-tilt and can beat out most character's aerials with his disjoints. Plasma Breath isn't always great but it can create openings to approach. I'd argue these things give him a pretty big leg up most true super heavies since they usually have to extend their hurtbox or risk going for trades more in order to win neutral. He may not be as heavy as super heavies but I'd argue he really doesn't need to be.

His raw damage off single hits might not always be as strong as the likes of Bowser but he can throw together strings with D-tilt and Fair pretty easily. His great run speed and moves like Plasma Breath and Up Smash also give him a very potent advantage state. His damage output is sill very potent.

His Smash Attacks are still pretty good as well. F-Smash might come out slow but is way more safe then it deserves to be, it sort of makes me think of Wolf's. Up Smash is a fantastic finisher to end a juggle with, can cover a full platform when spaced well, and it compliments his run speed very well. If we're going to make the (slightly unfair) comparison to super heavies I'd still rather have his Smashes then Bowser's/DK's/DDD's more situational ones.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Here is top 8 of Come to Papa 3:

Winner's
Tachyon vs MuteAce
dyr vs Raito

Loser's
Sonido vs Samsora
Vinny G vs MVD


This top 8 looks jank. lol

 

[KirbySquad101]

There is a fair dose of top tiers once more, with two Snakes and two Peaches, but three of those characters are in the Loser's Bracket; who makes it out is anyone's game, though I'm personally hoping Sonido makes it to Loser's Finals.

Raito is back to put on the map, from the looks of it; it was only a matter of time, but it's pretty awesome to see nonetheless.


That said, the more and more I watch Snake in these types of tournaments, the more and more I start to agree with PK Gaming's sentiments on the character. I know it's probably a meme to complain about Snake's UTilt, but to me, I just can't get behind the idea of giving a character really solid zoning tools that control so much space on the stage, yet also give him a CQC kill move that's as fast and powerful as 's USmash while somehow being less committal. That move alone just makes Snake such a dangerous character to contest at percentages past 90% even after you managed to get into his space.

 

[NotLiquid]

Sonido 3 - 2 Samsora

Given Sonic is considered by most to be low-mid tier, and Samsora being in the running for one of the best Ultimate players, this might be the upset of the month.

 

[Rizen]

Anyone who doesn't think is top tier needs to play around with her for about 15 minutes. I've been using her vs lv9 CPUs and it's sad how easy it is to beat them. Want to kill? You've got a frame 10 Fsmash that hits above platforms. Want to deal a quick 22%? punish with dancing blade. Need to recover? Your upB has f1 invincibility. Is you're opponent roughly in any of the four directions? You can hit them in 6-9 frames. Are they shielding? Well you've got a button for that too.

Leo's right: the character's so basic you could throw her into a swimming pool with acidic water to balance the pH. I'm not saying Lucina requires no skill but her option coverage and power is ridiculous. Why doesn't everyone have a pocket Lucina?!

 

[Lavani]

I feel like most negativity toward Ridley merely stems from recency bias; Vreyvus has had to focus more on life than Smash for some months, Trela's attendance (and performance) at events larger than locals is sporadic...and I don't really know any other big name Ridleys, so unless I'm just ignorant there hasn't really been anyone giving him proper rep in awhile. I don't have much to add beyond Zachmac's post, but the space pirate's competent in both neutral and advantage and I'd expect opinions to swing around again as soon as someone brings him back to the spotlight.

Re: Olimar smash safety, purples are scary and all but he actually gets the best frame advantage off of yellow smashes (friendly reminder that yellow usmash is +2 on shield fresh), which also have a significantly larger hitbox size and travel distance, and reds are barely less safe while still having better distance/above-normal damage. Pikmin colors may telegraph his actions, but it's really more 3/5 than 1/5 colors that he's safe to throw at shields, which isn't necessarily restrictive for the Olimar player to manage, unless perhaps if they get caught having to pull a yellow-blue-white lineup and aren't given an opportunity to manage further. I don't really have an opinion on the character overall, but purples certainly aren't the only thing carrying him.

 

[The_Bookworm]

I feel like most negativity toward Ridley merely stems from recency bias; Vreyvus has had to focus more on life than Smash for some months, Trela's attendance (and performance) at events larger than locals is sporadic...and I don't really know any other big name Ridleys, so unless I'm just ignorant there hasn't really been anyone giving him proper rep in awhile. I don't have much to add beyond Zachmac's post, but the space pirate's competent in both neutral and advantage and I'd expect opinions to swing around again as soon as someone brings him back to the spotlight.

Other notable Ridley players includes Locus and Venom. Locus is beginning to play a little more Dr. Mario lately, but still plays Ridley a lot. Notice that quite a bit of the top Ryu players from SSB4 switched over to Ridley in this game. Interesting to note.

 

[Kiligar]

Marth’s tippers are broken. I mean, in their very concept. Without DI on Battlefield ledge v Roy, a tipper f smash kills at 33%. A non tipper kills with no DI at 95%. Getting hit by a tipper doesn’t feel fun, and missing a tipper is frustrating as well. I say they should increase tipper hitboxes, decrease tipper knockback. Someone can accidentally hit a tipper and kill you earlier than Ganondorf, or you can try your best to hit tippers and simply be outclassed by Lucina. The character needs to be fixed.

 

[Gleam]

Void's got the next part of his Tier List up and like so many others, for some reason he put in 'A' tier which for me, is equivalent to at least High Tier.

At this point, I must ask for some help from the good members of Smashboards. With so many "Pros" putting Ganon between decent and face beatingly awesome, I must know the secret on how to get Super Ganon. I've got this painfully low version who sucks at approaching, gets comboed to hell, struggles against projectiles and has such a horrible recovery/off stage game that most characters can gimp him around 70% on a bad day.

But I don't want this s*** Ganon who can barely get tournament results.

I want the badass, unstoppable monster Void, Mew2King and so many other "pros" have talked about. Unfortunately I just don't know how to get him.

Is there a secret code? Up, Up, Down, Down, Left, Right, Left,Right, Warlock Punch?

Do I need to shove the chip of Smash4 into my Switch and fuse the Ganon data's together into some kind of Fusion Ganon?

Do I need to actually beat World of Light? I think WoL sucks but I'll do it if it gets me High Tier Super Ganon.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Raito 3-0 dyr

The dog is going off tonight.

 

[Kiligar]

Raito 3-0 dyr

The dog is going off tonight.

Despite the nerfs Raito remains strong and loyal.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Void's got the next part of his Tier List up and like so many others, for some reason he put in 'A' tier which for me, is equivalent to at least High Tier.

If you look at the characters in that tier, you'll see that it's highly unlikely that A tier is high tier. Semantics aside, Ganondorf being "high-mid" (I suppose) is still very impressive. I don't think that's true, personally, but it's something.

 

[Idon]

Hm, Dyr placed fifth at Come to Papa 3 using Joker, so there's some results for Joker a bit early into his meta. Had a lot of trouble trying to get towards Snake with his wall of projectiles and grenades.

 

[Gearkeeper-8a]

Hm, Dyr placed fifth at Come to Papa 3 using Joker, so there's some results for Joker a bit early into his meta. Had a lot of trouble trying to get towards Snake with his wall of projectiles and grenades.

Take note that he has never played against snake with joker.

 

[Rizen]

[

At this point, I must ask for some help from the good members of Smashboards. With so many "Pros" putting Ganon between decent and face beatingly awesome, I must know the secret on how to get Super Ganon.

Wifi. Seriously though, Ganon's a strong player counterpick character, like how Nairo uses him. If you can read your opponent and outplay them a little he can be devastating. But don't expect to see a lot of solo Ganons getting far.

If you look at the characters in that tier, you'll see that it's highly unlikely that A tier is high tier. Semantics aside, Ganondorf being "high-mid" (I suppose) is still very impressive. I don't think that's true, personally, but it's something.

Void said it's high tier but as stated, it is semantics.
Edit, I don't want to spam the thread but he says:
"I would say A tier is kind of, in my opinion, high tier of the cast"

 

[Frihetsanka]

Void said it's high tier but as stated, it is semantics.

S top tier, A+ high tier, A mid tier, B/C+/C low tier.

In the third video he also called it "middle tier".

Edit: Though he did call it "high tier" at the end of the third video. It's more likely that he just misspoke, although it's also possible that he changed his mind (though given the way he spoke about some of the characters, like Ness, saying that he is "A character I have no faith in", high tier seems unlikely).

 

[Cheryl~]

As of right now MVD has achieved a pretty quick bracket reset against Raito in Grand Finals of CTP3, with a clean 3-0. Raito's been playing very well as Duck Hunt and has shown a lot of people the potential of this character, but it seems that sadly Snake kinda bodies the character, with DHD's recovery being completely prone to Snake's Nikita and Snake's zoning and kill power outclassing the dog. Hopefully Raito can find a way to come back because I really want Duck Hunt to win an event ;~;

EDIT: Raito might have found the trick, he's won the first game of the bracket reset! Let's go Raito!!!

 

[KirbySquad101]

We're sitting at a 2-2 between the two now; anything can happen.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Don't know why Void put Ganon into the A tier. Besides of one Nairo showing there is basically nothing to see from this character and I have to say: The doubles at Come to Papa showed how god-awful Ganon's (and Falcon's) recovery is. An he has put Falcon at bottom-tier, also because of that.
I don't really see him that high-up and the results after Collision(?) show that he is on the decline while other characters below him have had better results afterwards, like Sonic or Zelda.
So I think Ganon is vastly overrated in general and he will fall when people notice they don't have to be scared of him.

 

[Anomika]

Still early to tell, but he's at least better than in Brawl and SSB4. What he says is that A tier is upper mid tier. While it may be too high for some, what I can say is that he's definitely somewhere in mid tier. Anywhere from low to high. Opinions might change.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Here's a question I've been pondering on:

Do players pick up the strengths of their characters?

For example,

Player A mains Yoshi. Player B mains incinerorar. Player C mains mario.

Which player would have the best understanding of movement? Does playing a character that lacks that tool teaches you to appreciate it more?

Another example,

Player A mains Luigi. Player B mains Sheik.

Who's gonna have a better sense and understanding of neutral? Luigi doesn't worry about building and killing, he has +50% combos, reliable smashes for killing, and setups into Up-b. Sheik needs to think about how she can extend her advantage state as best as she can. this can make neutral not as big as a priority for sheik, in contrast to luigi who'll think about neutral first.

However, sheik has much better tools and more tools for winning neutral, and by having to win it so much, the player has to be consistent. Luigi only needs a few exchanges. Luigi can afford to be sloppy, as he only needs a those few exchanges to win.

Which character can teach neutral better?
From my previous example, what character can teach movement better? Those with tools in abundance, or those lacking?

 

[The_Bookworm]

Come to Papa 3

1st: MVD
2nd: Raito
3rd: MuteAce
4th: Tachyon
5th: Sonido
5th: dyr
7th: Samsora
7th: Vinny G
9th: ScAtt
9th: Dath
9th: 8BitMan
9th: Yoss
13th: Epic_Gabriel
13th: Rideae
13th: ZAKI
13th: Kobe


MVD brought it all the way back from loser's and beat Raito twice in grand finals. Although he kinda molly-whopped him in set 1, Raito brought it really close in set 2, resulting in a 3-2 victory for MVD instead.

This is a pretty good showing of and especially . Definitely a tournament to note.

 

[SwagGuy99]

If you look at the characters in that tier, you'll see that it's highly unlikely that A tier is high tier. Semantics aside, Ganondorf being "high-mid" (I suppose) is still very impressive. I don't think that's true, personally, but it's something.

I think that could be high mid but he's not any better than that. He hits like , has the frame data of , and the range of . However, he is really held back by his movement speed and recovery. is a pretty balanced character overall in my opinion and I can realistically see him in high mid tier. I do not see him as the best super-heavyweight though.

Speaking of the best super-heavyweight, what is everyone's opinion on who it is? ()