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The only changed Pichu got was lightly increased hurtboxes during certian attacks right. Does it really make that much of a difference?
Not sure, it was a non-insignificant nerf though, and I don't think he was top 5 before the patch anyway.
I also noticed he did not bring up
being buffed at all, which is confusing especially considering his buffs are actually pretty big for him. as a bottom 4 character likely as a result of Fatality's performance at Pound 2019. Which really doesn't make sense, because that placement doesn't negate the previous amount of success Fatality and NickC has had with him., while 6WX doesn't use him as often and Seagull dropped him, KEN is still an absolute beast with him in Japan.
His frame data is also pretty poor and which is problematic for
against characters who have very fast and powerful attacks like and .. It could be worse for but since Pikmin are so disjointed and very few characters can outrange them, it's not really a huge problem.I remember in Brawl that Luigi used to be decent vs Olimar due to Nair breaking Pikmin combos and tornado killing Pikmin easily while allowing an approach...I wonder if it still applies to this game? Tornado is a much weaker burst/approach option now so...idk...His frame data is also pretty poor and which is problematic for
I'm not saying those are winning matchups, but their frame data does pose a bit of a problem for
Isn't tornado a better burst/approach option in this game because of the I-frames it has now?
This isn't true at all.His frame data is also pretty poor and which is problematic for
I'm not saying those are winning matchups, but their frame data does pose a bit of a problem for
I disagree. That's really I'll say. A lot of the **** people complain about on Olimar isn't that terrible to deal with if you play a decent character and know the MU.
Overtuned tools is what wins you tournaments and guess what? Olimar has a lot of them, his insane tournament results clearly reflect that. Don't be Delugional
It has iframes, but Luigi doesn't move anywhere now when using the attack - including horizontally. Coupled with its low range and copious amounts of endlag on the move, makes it generally unconventional as far as approach options go.
First clip is the one I find most noteworthy. Gets landing nair into red usmash into red sh uair then yellow uair then another red uair for 57.4%. Then he gets a yellow sh fair and a red side b resulting in 73.2%. In 10 seconds. With five moves, two of which were short hopped and uair was staled (let alone any potential prior staling)
The story of the majority of the technical characters in Smash.
I skipped to the ending. It's weird seeing K.Rool ahead of Ridley but that's the thing about heavyweights, or rather large characters, in general. Some people would put Ridley at the top of mid tier and as possibly the best large character. Some put him as the worst big character (bigs). It really depends on what your experiences are because bigs are extremely polarizing. They can wreck you or seem totally inept. This is why I include them all in mid tier. On a good day bigs seem like easy high tiers but on a bad day they seem like low tiers. Ganon and (less-so) Incineroar are the worst offenders. Ganon can die offstage at 80% and Usmash kill you at 80% or maybe lower. This is why tier list opinions on him vary so much. I'm still waiting for a great K.Rool player to come along but admit he's hardly getting any results.
Used to travel further and faster on the ground. It's better for landing now, i guess
Actually you seem to be right. His frame data seems pretty average to me which is better than most swordfighters in the game. I still think that he probably could struggle against characters with REALLY fast frame data a bit (Think
) but like I said before, he outranges most of the characters with faster frame data anyways so it's not too much of a problem for , he just has to stay out of range.
I've already talked about Ridley before and how people are sleeping on him, but it seems it's going to be his fate to be flip flopping in different tier lists from low tier to mid tier lol
Ridley isn't even an actual heavyweight though (believe he's a midweight?), he's a heavy without any of the benefits of actually being a heavy. He's just fairly slow and combo food.. with no real benefit. None of Ridley's disjoints are big / crazy enough to justify his size / weight ratio. He should be a lot heavier than he is, or he should be faster. As-is, he's in a bad limbo.
He is tied with Wario, Ike, and the Belmonts for the 12-16th heaviest character in the game. While this is definitely not super heavy weight, it is nothing to scoff at.
I'm not saying he doesn't have good tools, I'm saying he has fairly decent tools.. locked into a weight and size that leaves him in a fairly poor position by default. If he had INSANE disjoints, kill power or zoning.. something like that? Different story. He doesn't. Ridley's good doesn't outweigh the bad, which hurts him.So Come to Papa 3 is going on, a super regional, pretty big, tournament in Florida. Here are the notable players (not in order of notability btw).
Plup
saj
Tachyon
Morpheus
Rideae
UtopianRay
Phantom
MuteAce
Sonido
Blank
Kamikaze
ZAKI
Myran
Samsora
Fatality
Dath
8BitMan
Prince Ramen
dyr
MVD
Glare
ScAtt
Uncivil Ninja
Purple Guy
Goblin
Raito
Ryo
He is tied with Wario, Ike, and the Belmonts for the 12-16th heaviest character in the game. While this is definitely not super heavy weight, it is nothing to scoff at.
Also, have you seen his n-air hitbox? He has some decent disjoints. He has some pretty great power behind him. While he doesn't hit as hard as the superheavies, he possesses some surprisingly good frame data and mobility (tied for the 9-10th fastest run speed in the game) for a character of his weight class.
"It's fine if you know the matchup" isn't a compelling counterargument. I don't want to read about your gut feelings or how "people actually have it all wrong and Olimar isn't that bad in practice" If you can't convince people with compelling arguments, then there's just no point in bringing it up. Personally, I think you should take a step back and reexamine your own biases towards the character because it's clouding your judgement.
It's not mutually exclusive and my point wasn't just "Snake takes effort."
You are missing the point. Its insane because despite the lack of representation for the character, those 3 have consistently placed well at majors and super majors. My point is that its much more than "just play a good character and learn the matchup" that has been alluded to in this thread.
You made a really compelling argument and then threw it away with two lines. Let's not strawman this argument.
My main thing there are definite counterpicks to Olimar that do kind of throw a wrench in his entire gameplan, and he does have a fairly piss disadvantage state so anytime you fail to play perfectly (or just fail to neutral in general, at lower levels) you're usually gonna suffer for it if the other player executes.
Pretty much the same. A high mid tier with potential for banana infinites. He also has a good neutral and is decently fast but struggles to kill and has a pretty bad recovery. Maybe slightly better because of the higher kill potential but not enough to rise him significantly on any tier list.
Slow? He's tied with Zard for 9th fastest run speed. His frame data isn't all that bad either. A frame 4 jab, frame 9 dtilt, frame 8 utilt, frame 10 ftilt is pretty good, especially since his tail and wings are disjointed (dtilt especially shows this off). Nair is a good frame 8 OoS option, fair and bair both being frame 10 and combo/kill respectively. The only thing "slow" about him is his air speed, and that's roughly middle of the cast.
I dunno man, all his smashes hit like a truck, usmash being an absolutely amazing anti air (his entire foot and most of his leg is intangible) that covers an entire Battlefield platform. Tipper ftilt kills early at the ledge and can 2 frame pretty well, his previously stated bair is a good frame 10 aerial to punish misspaced moves that kills pretty well. Tipper uair hits pretty hard. I guess he doesn't hit, like, Bowser or Dedede hard, but who else does?
His recovery is not Ganon tier. Ganon tier means getting hit too far off stage = death. Ridley doesn't have that issue. His biggest thing is getting gimped, which isn't exactly the easiest thing to do because of the large disjointed hitbox that is Wing Blitz unless you have good disjoints of your own (i.e. swordies). His side b is good for horizontal recovery without using any jumps and unlike Ganon, doesn't put him into freefall, and unlike Mac, gains it back to use again after getting hit. I'm not trying to say his recovery secretly amazing or anything like that, it absolutely does have it's weaknesses. But it's not that bad.
His recovery IS Ganon tier because of how slow and punishable it is, I wasn't talking distance. His speed isn't horrible, but saying 'he's as fast as Charizard' really just proves my point about his speed being an issue in the first place. Zard is not a great barometer for speed, despite being a faster heavy. The point is he is not fast in general.
No, recklessly buffing characters doesn't address the issues present in Olimar's kit. The patches that nerfed Sheik and Diddy Kong in Smash 4 that brought them more in line with the rest of the cast did far more for the game than any of the buffs they had given to other characters.
Pure conceit on your part. There isn't a human being on the planet who isn't partial towards their main, but the idea that you're somehow more qualified to talk about Olimar's strengths and weaknesses, when you haven't even been arguing in good faith is completely ridiculous. You can keep saying he's extremely well-rounded all you want, but it wont do you any good if you can't back up those claims with tangible arguments. Even if Olimar wasn't problematic, a lightweight character with an exploitable recovery and unique mechanics that significantly vary how he functions can't be well-rounded by design.
Spare me with that anti-intellectualism. Listing technical numbers and what-not is the point, and if you can't even that in a competitive impressions thread, then maybe you should take a break from here.
You absolutely can't expect me to take any of your arguments seriously when you're this wound up over your main. Really it speaks volumes that me criticizing Olimar's design elicits this sort of response from you. I don't expect an apology from Olimar players, nor do I want them to stop playing the character. I'm just pointing out the problems I perceive with the character.
Overtuned = / = busted. Your arguments would be more convincing if you didn't put words in people's mouth and didn't rely on irrelevant comparisons to deflect from Olimar's issues.
Agreed, it is slow. But I don't think it makes him Ganon tier. I'd argue Ganon (and similarly Mac) are in a tier of their own simply due to the fact that being too far from the ledge is certain doom. I'd equate Ridley's recovery to more of... Ken/Ryu tier. Maybe a tad bit better. Hear me out:
Well, I wasn't exactly trying to compare Ridley's speed with Zards, but rather I was saying that Ridley still has the 9th fastest run speed. I could've left out the Zard bit and still gotten my point across. Hindsight is 20/20.
Dare I say... he doesn't need better frame data on his smashes? Yeah the hitboxes can be iffy sometimes (fsmash especially) but each of them are generally specific in which you'd use over the other. Usmash an antiair, fsmash a whiffpunisher that kills early, dsmash's little hop lets him avoid some hitboxes low to the ground, as well as having the most horizontal range out of them all, with disjointed wings to boot. I think they get the job done, and his hitboxes (outside of fsmash being a tad bit bigger vertically) wouldn't be the first thing I'd want buffed about him.
But it's also his most used moves used in neutral. Dtilt is basically Mewtwo dtilt without the hurtbox. I'm sure you've already heard the whole joke surrounding Ridley and his nair. Ftilt being a decent midrange poke with a potent tipper. Utilt sharks platforms and can combo. Fair especially I feel is underrated because of nair, but it extends further horizontally than nair and hits multiple times. Bair has good range and no sourspot and kills.
His gentleman actually is pretty strong. Kills earlier than you think it would.
I hate that you made that pun but I respect you and what you stand for
