Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Glerma]

I'm personally still not tooo impressed with him. To put it simply, Joker feels like a whack Greninja that occasionally turns into a fast Ganondorf. Fought one for the first time in bracket today, and it was pretty stressful being in a last hit scenario with Arsene. Still feels like a high tier to me, but a lot of top heads here feel adamant that he's top 10.

I am not arguing with you, I would agree he is high tier, but too early to call top 10 or not. Definitely still combos and set ups yet to be discovered and I would love to see a real top player try them at a top level tournament, but that might be asking a lot. I mostly quoted you because I thought it was super funny you said you were not impressed with him and then said he is sometimes a fast ganondorf. And like...that sounds absolutely terrifying when you word it like that lol.

 

[DelugeFGC]

Joker's recovery is clearly still pretty bad. The fact that he pretty much always has to go low makes it very predictable, it's very easy to go out there and hit him. The main use of the tether having extreme range is that it allows him to be more aggressive than you'd think offstage since he can make it back from almost anywhere.

His recovery ain't bad, but it ain't great either. The biggest problem is you don't get i-frames until you latch onto the ledge proper, so while you're doing the spider dangle you can get gimped real damn easy.. but being able to stage tech and expecting this sort of thing can help PLUS the man does have a wall jump so it's really not the end all some people make it out to be.

The only time it's really a problem is you get meteor'd, and even then you can sometimes manage a miraculous stage tech (I've done it more than once, so I know it's possible) that defies physics out, wall jump back and then grapple to live. When he has Arsene, there's very little area of the screen he can't make it back from, so actually edge guarding him becomes a fair bit more difficult which is compounded further by the fact Joker can very easily kill YOU for coming out to kill him when he has Arsene in situations like that. As you said, the biggest pro of Joker's tether is how aggressive it lets him be during edge guards, you can go STUPID low and gimp people at %'s that other characters couldn't dream of.. all while still making it safely back. Arsene basically makes you fearless offstage anywhere.

The biggest problem with it is how linear it is and how the i-frames don't start until you ledge-snap.. but it's not really what I would call a 'pretty bad' recovery either. If you were to make a tier list SOLELY for recoveries, I'd place Joker's (overall, counting both aspects of it) somewhere in the high end of mid-tier to the low-end of high tier.

People seem to forget his neutral B (The guns) are also a part of his recovery game, and Up B actually lifts you up slightly into the air when using it as can be used multiple times without ever losing it. Factor this in with what I just said, and you can't really call his recovery bad. Little Mac or Bowser Jr. is a better example of a 'bad recovery' so to speak here.

You can rockcrock Falcon's recovery and kill him for free pretty much anytime he goes low, and I still wouldn't call his recovery 'bad' either.

Joker is in no way top 10, but I wouldn't call him a whack Greninja in any way either, that's completely ill-fitting if you know the slightest thing about him. Joker's gameplan simply has ONE ELEMENT similar to Greninja, and has many other elements going beyond that. I've never seen Greninja counter two attacks or eat a fat combo only to go off and completely invalidate a stock at 50% without a gimp. As good his burst options are, Greninja does need a red % unless you go offstage to get consistent kills.. Joker with Arsene doesn't, off OR onstage. Arsene literally puts Joker in a position where he can kill you at any %, and simply being the winning player is guaranteed to bring it out.

 

[IsmaR]

A tether recovery is still a tether recovery, so things like this can happen.

I'd also say the fact that it is an arguable downgrade when Arsene is active (for the same reason Pit's recovery is predictable/easy to intercept once he snaps to ledge) + the fact it can switch up as you get launched off/are in the middle of recovering makes it difficult accurately judge. The only thing I like about it is the drift.

 

[Glerma]

A tether recovery is still a tether recovery, so things like this can happen.

I have literally never seen that happen with Joker recovery under stage. Every other time i have seen it snap to edge and not been a problem.

 

[The_Bookworm]

I have literally never seen that happen with Joker recovery under stage. Every other time i have seen it snap to edge and not been a problem.

It might've simply been a Lylat thing that happened.

 

[NotLiquid]

Lylat's gonna Lylat, what can you do.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I think another factor to talk about when discussing homogenuity and how "bad" it is, is are we focused on the character or the player?

I just think about the 3D fighters. Each character has a ton of moves, and are built, thanks to their toolset and the mechanics of the games (particularly the last part), to be "complete." I remember playing pokken tournament, and not having a character crisis at all. Usually, I like to play everyone in every game (though I never really played 3D fighters much. Sonic the Fighters, Pokken, and Tenkaichi 3 are the only fighters I played in 3D), but I played Sceptile first out of all the characters and I couldn't switch off of him. Must've been having to learn a bunch of mechanics with him and having the need to actually use lab time.

Anyway, 3D fighters are all close-up fighters (besides a handful), and though there are differences (grappling, mix-ups, etc), most differences can be hard to see. Heihachi from tekken, for example, had a weakness of having bad low attacks to break defense. Having characters that play somewhat the same makes me look at the players and how they do stuff more.

I'm saying homogenization doesn't have to be a bad thing. It can put more focus onto the player, since we all know we skip matches because we hate watching a particular character, when we could be missing opportunity to see what that player does with that character. Too caught up in the tool and not the craftsman.

Someone mentioned SF4 being a great game for spectators, since the characters have great strengths and recognizable weaknesses. It's funny, because I was thinking about why I would find some matches not fun to watch in smash (in S4, it would be the fox, or someone). It dawned on me that SF4 characters were simple; they made their goals easy to recognize (dhalsim was slow and had long limbs for distance, dudley and boxer/balrog were boxers and loved getting close, Seth was an android and had everything, etc). It made it easy to understand what the struggle was.

Then I get to Rose and I don't know what her goals are, so I don't care to watch Luffy. Or I don't care to watch Sakura much when I don't know her, and the only bit of information I got on her was crazy cross-ups and high damage. C Viper existed, and was known for her high execution requirement, so instantly more attractive.

In smash, it can be harder to see. Fox in ultimate, for me, isn't fun to watch. He's supposed to be a close-range fighter yes, but where are his crazy strings? what makes him scary up close? It seems he does a bunch of individual hits, and then somewhere lands a smash attack and kills.

Pichu can do endless strings. I notice that, and think about the combo tree pichu possess, and I think about how pichu mains would express themselves through that combo tree. Same with Peach or someone else.

But if everyone had more similar tools, but had a plethora of those tools, I don't care much about the character; as they're more like tools now. I care more about the person operating the tools. Idk.

Also, Looking at a character for their specific strengths could also be problematic. Pac-man is the mix-up character of smash, period I think, but just watching Tea to see what bag of tricks he'll pull out against his next opponent could make me miss his interesting take on operating in the neutral. Or his defensive capabilites.

Just watching Mkleo play lucina to see how he keeps his opponents at a certain space while playing neutral could make me miss how he scrambles and gets out of "improv" situations. Or how he plays neutral up-close against brawlers.

Homogenization can be a good thing when done right. It allows us to appreciate the player more rather than worry about the character he/she chooses.

Seems to me like you enjoy characters that can press a lot of stuff and be rewarded, and look cool doing it.

Eh.

Also something else I find amusing. Smash 4 and Ultimate are 100 times more diversified at high level then Melee or Brawl could ever hope to be.

Melee is literally Marvel with no assists.

Brawl had potential and set the stage, but MK and IC's ruined that premise.

Ultimate has so many variations of archetypes including all the traditional archetypes as well.

The game is for sure moving in the correct direction.

And as for buffing parry, just make it reflect projectiles and perhaps increase the window by a frame.

 

[Krysco]

Just wanna quickly pop in to say I doubt parrying will ever get buffed to reflect projectiles since there's spirits that already do that when equipped. The most I can see is making the parry window more generous and providing more frame advantage.

 

[Scarlet Spyder]

This is a good Grand Finals between two solid players (Wadi and Elegant) using some less popular characters. It's a good display of what Wii Fit Trainer can do and how absurd Luigi's 0-to-death combos can be. What do you all think of these characters?

 

[Impax]

My on

This is a good Grand Finals between two solid players (Wadi and Elegant) using some less popular characters. It's a good display of what Wii Fit Trainer can do and how absurd Luigi's 0-to-death combos can be.

My only issue with Wadis play is that he doesnt seem familiar with the volleyball setups. I do like his movement though.

 

[SwagGuy99]

This is a good Grand Finals between two solid players (Wadi and Elegant) using some less popular characters. It's a good display of what Wii Fit Trainer can do and how absurd Luigi's 0-to-death combos can be. What do you all think of these characters?

One thing that I like about compared to is he can kill more reliably on-stage. They took away a lot of his kill power from to so it's nice to see that got some of the old kill power back.

 

[Sean²]

Looks like two wonky characters just trying to out-weird each other for 18 minutes.

WFT is probably one of the the goofiest characters on the roster. Deep breathing is a crazy buff and makes them a scary character. Hitboxes are so unconventional that you can pretty much blindside anyone without a lot of matchup experience (honestly, why does ftilt cover crossups AND kill?). Volleyball is basically a Gordo that you can hit in any direction you want. Also the only character that can play out entire games hanging on the ledge and somehow retain advantage. Whomever designed this character is a psychopath.

Luigi has some weird stuff but he's a lot easier to deal with. As long as you don't get grabbed at 0, don't touch his shield when you're too close, and remember the vacuum plunger has a hitbox, you can mostly just out-fundamental him.

I could see more higher level players picking up WFT and having success with them, less so with Luigi. Elegant is in a league of his own and can't really be compared to your average Luigi player.

 

[DelugeFGC]

A tether recovery is still a tether recovery, so things like this can happen.

I'd also say the fact that it is an arguable downgrade when Arsene is active (for the same reason Pit's recovery is predictable/easy to intercept once he snaps to ledge) + the fact it can switch up as you get launched off/are in the middle of recovering makes it difficult accurately judge. The only thing I like about it is the drift.

Arsene Up B gets WAY more distance than Pit's Up B, and unless you out-and-out get meteor'd into the blast zone and die, there's every chance you can just Up B again and live when getting hit. It really isn't a massive deal in my experience, and it lets you recover from any angle of the screen compared to the two angles you had before.

Wouldn't really call that a downgrade, but I do see the point.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

IMO the only way you can consider Arsene to be a downgrade over the grapple is if you're talking about the grapple's use as a combo tool. As a recovery option Arsene is superior -- better range, generous intangibility, no tether.

 

[Repli.Cant]

I think the main thing people are saying when it comes to Arsene being worse than Grappling Hook is that as of late, it has been shown that it's pretty easy to 2 frame Arsene. Not to mention it has substantial landing lag if you miss the ledge, along with not as many angles as Pit's wings. Plus, Pit has 3 midair jumps to position or wait out options the opponent might be doing.

 

[KirbySquad101]

This is a good Grand Finals between two solid players (Wadi and Elegant) using some less popular characters. It's a good display of what Wii Fit Trainer can do and how absurd Luigi's 0-to-death combos can be. What do you all think of these characters?

I believe WaDi said he's going to continue using WFT; I think that means he's planning to co-main him and R.O.B.? Either way, it's good to see get some much needed representation.

I did notice some things in the set:

- WFT looks somewhat lacking in terms of approach options outside of fast-fall NAir, since that was mainly the one option WaDi used to get into Elegant's bubble. Which makes it a good thing that WFT has two really solid projectiles in the form of both Sun Salutation and Header; in certain match-ups, these projectiles make for really good options to force the opponent to approach, such as Luigi. It also helps that Luigi doesn't have too many stellar approaching options, barring his grab.

- While I mentioned, WFT doesn't have much in terms of approach options, NAir is one heck of an approach option: It can cross-up on shields and the move does absurd amounts of damage for combo move, and when she has Deep Breathing active, nets her combo strings that rival 's damage output.

- And yeah, Deep Breathing.... that move is pretty insane; on top of giving her highly damaging combos, it pretty much turns all of her attacks into kill options; compounded with her increased movement, forward tilt is EASILY one of the best burst KO options against grounded enemies: It's fast, it's spammable, and it can kill at percents lower than 100%. You can actually see WaDi - in one part of the video - use the thing 3 times against Elegant in a row, and it worked. It's just a really hard option to react to.

Overall, I can see WFT struggling a bit against characters who can out-zone her and take advantage of her awkward coverage (the biggest example I can think of is T's against varun's ), but I think WFT has some really solid tools overall.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

My opinion on Luigi has not changed. Still has amazing frame data and mazing combo potential that can absolutely wreck you one he gets his hands on you. But the real thing holding him back is how terrible his recovery is now . also has a very bad recovery, but his good air-mobility and big sword disjoints take can make them hard to actually challenge offstage for lots of characters does not have either of those luxuries. If Luigi gets launched offstage vs characters that can go deep edgeuarding. He can find himself in big trouble

 

[MH-Jin]

My opinion on Luigi has not changed. Still has amazing frame data and mazing combo potential that can absolutely wreck you one he gets his hands on you. But the real thing holding him back is how terrible his recovery is now . also has a very bad recovery, but his good air-mobility and big sword disjoints take can make them hard to actually challenge offstage for lots of characters does not have either of those luxuries. If Luigi gets launched offstage vs characters that can go deep edgeuarding. He can find himself in big trouble

To add to this, unlike Luigi, both Cloud and Chrom have strong lingering hitboxes when descending with their up bs as well. This gives them the option to recover above ledge and downwards, an option that Luigi lacks.

The descending hitbox helps to relieve Cloud/Chrom pressure from the ledge and gives them freedom in their ledge options in knocking away the opponent from the ledge. Plus there is the threat of dying in challenging the their sword since it can spike past ledge in certain scenarios.

On the opposite side, Luigi will be forced to either deal with the ledge situation since he lacks being a threat in his return to the ledge. If he recovers high (not sure why) , is put into a landing situation. While he has a great nair for landing in that it lasts long, it doesn't have the disjoint to provide a "bubble" of protection that Chrom/Cloud have.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I think the main thing people are saying when it comes to Arsene being worse than Grappling Hook is that as of late, it has been shown that it's pretty easy to 2 frame Arsene. Not to mention it has substantial landing lag if you miss the ledge, along with not as many angles as Pit's wings. Plus, Pit has 3 midair jumps to position or wait out options the opponent might be doing.

Can you not 2-frame the grapple, or even dropdown nair to smack Joker as he rises up? If you're in a position to recover onto the stage directly with Arsene, would grapple have even worked at the same spot? Comparing to Pit is meaningless since this is just talking about grapple vs. Arsene, not Arsene vs. Pit.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Basically the new version of MALLC, but both easier and better overall.

 

[DelugeFGC]

Can you not 2-frame the grapple, or even dropdown nair to smack Joker as he rises up? If you're in a position to recover onto the stage directly with Arsene, would grapple have even worked at the same spot? Comparing to Pit is meaningless since this is just talking about grapple vs. Arsene, not Arsene vs. Pit.

Grapple is harder to 2-frame, that much I can see easily. When you pull up from dangling, you FLY to the ledge, the travel path of Arsene is much slower (and therefore easier to time) than that.

BUT, I still think his recovery is pretty decent. It's also not AS linear as people say, despite clearly throwing the hook vertically when he uses it, he can actually tether from a horizontal distance slightly ABOVE the ledge, it's just a big defined zone of when he uses Up B / Is facing the ledge.. it either works or it doesn't. Due to this, his recovery does not need as much precision than it lets on, and it also has quite a bit more horizontal distance than you'd think. So, alongside this fact AND the stuff with his guns, Joker also has the option of going middle. High isn't really ever a common option unless you survive a high % BZ launch or something though, or have Arsene,

I think the statement that Arsene = Better general recovery, Grapple = Better edge-guard recovery does work, though. Joker does NOT have a super linear recovery, Arsene or not. People really need to make more use of his gun mobility to mix things up, and go for middle recoveries more because it throws people off.

 

[Repli.Cant]

Can you not 2-frame the grapple, or even dropdown nair to smack Joker as he rises up? If you're in a position to recover onto the stage directly with Arsene, would grapple have even worked at the same spot? Comparing to Pit is meaningless since this is just talking about grapple vs. Arsene, not Arsene vs. Pit.

I was kinda referring to DelugeTN's statement of

Arsene Up B gets WAY more distance than Pit's Up B

Arsene up b has amazing reach at the expense of limited angles and noticeable landing lag. Grappling Hook isn't as easy to 2 frame as Arsene, however you can of course just dropdown nair Joker as he is pulling himself up. Arsene's recovery suggests that he recover low. Grappling Hook forces you to. Joker loses Arsene's invincibility one he grabs the ledge, letting him get 2 framed regardless.

Regardless, they're both good at what they do and I don't really dread using one over the other.

 

[Deathcarter]

Here's a very fun GF set between Zackray going all Joker against Abadango's Inkling:

As for some of my personal highlights:

-Arsene Joker's UpSmash is a really good OoS punish as seen at 3:50. It's basically Ridley's UpSmash but with the power of Charizard's. Its also a relly good anti-air with Zackray killing Aba on one of the PS2 platforms as 75% with no rage at 23:44.

-As said here before, Joker can go insanely deep offstage. At 5:00, Zackray with no Arsene goes near the blastzone to edgeguard Abadango and manages to make it back from the bottom blastzone with a double jump and his grapple hook, at 12:10 as Zackray successfully edgeguards Abadango with nair when Aba's below the visible screen, and at 34:17 where at attempted edgeguard by Aba gets reversed by Zackray into a clutch dair spike near the bottom of the screen.

-Zackray successfully uses fair 1 as a kill confirm a couple of times, first at 8:41 into up air where Aba's at a fairly high 175% and then later at 31:11 where fair 1 confirms into drag down up air into an UpSmash.

-Joker's bair is dangerous to challenge and has very little lag. Aba ends loses set 2 at 41:35 because he tries to challenge a whiffed bair out of shield to escape out of the corner only for Zackray to pull a second one out before Aba can throw out a move and finish Aba off.

This is a great video to see some high level Joker play this early on.

 

[Omnos]

Arsene Up B gets WAY more distance than Pit's Up B, and unless you out-and-out get meteor'd into the blast zone and die, there's every chance you can just Up B again and live when getting hit. It really isn't a massive deal in my experience, and it lets you recover from any angle of the screen compared to the two angles you had before.

Wouldn't really call that a downgrade, but I do see the point.

That's not true in the slightest. Pit and Arsene upB cover the exact same distance. The difference is Pit's has more angles to choose from compared the the 3 Joker has, and Joker has way more drift with his and better i frames. Factoring in Pit's 3 air jumps, Pit's technically goes way further than Arsene's.

 

[Scarlet Spyder]

Here's a very fun GF set between Zackray going all Joker against Abadango's Inkling:

As for some of my personal highlights:

-Arsene Joker's UpSmash is a really good OoS punish as seen at 3:50. It's basically Ridley's UpSmash but with the power of Charizard's. Its also a relly good anti-air with Zackray killing Aba on one of the PS2 platforms as 75% with no rage at 23:44.

-As said here before, Joker can go insanely deep offstage. At 5:00, Zackray with no Arsene goes near the blastzone to edgeguard Abadango and manages to make it back from the bottom blastzone with a double jump and his grapple hook, at 12:10 as Zackray successfully edgeguards Abadango with nair when Aba's below the visible screen, and at 34:17 where at attempted edgeguard by Aba gets reversed by Zackray into a clutch dair spike near the bottom of the screen.

-Zackray successfully uses fair 1 as a kill confirm a couple of times, first at 8:41 into up air where Aba's at a fairly high 175% and then later at 31:11 where fair 1 confirms into drag down up air into an UpSmash.

-Joker's bair is dangerous to challenge and has very little lag. Aba ends loses set 2 at 41:35 because he tries to challenge a whiffed bair out of shield to escape out of the corner only for Zackray to pull a second one out before Aba can throw out a move and finish Aba off.

This is a great video to see some high level Joker play this early on.

Excellent set of my favorite Ultimate player Zackray. I love seeing him pick up new characters and dominating the local scene in Japan. It's kinda crazy how good he is...

Anyways, you highlighted a lot of the good stuff about Joker here. He definitely has a good kit for edgeguarding, because you can see that Zackray finds some success against a character that is notoriously difficult to edgeguard. It's also a good display of some of the KO set-ups, with or without Arsene. The Fair 1 confirms are gonna become the bread and butter for KOs when Arsene isn't there to help out. The video also highlights some of the struggles of non-Arsene Joker, like trouble KOing til very high percents.

I haven't played against the character too much over the past week but overall he seems like a solid character. It's too early to put him on tier lists just yet but if you search "Grand Finals Joker" and find multiple videos, that's gotta be encouraging. I'm sure some of it is due to match-up inexperience but the character has got plenty tools to be successful in the current metagame. We'll see how far players take him!

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Seems to me like you enjoy characters that can press a lot of stuff and be rewarded, and look cool doing it.

Eh.

Also something else I find amusing. Smash 4 and Ultimate are 100 times more diversified at high level then Melee or Brawl could ever hope to be.

Melee is literally Marvel with no assists.

Brawl had potential and set the stage, but MK and IC's ruined that premise.

Ultimate has so many variations of archetypes including all the traditional archetypes as well.

The game is for sure moving in the correct direction.

And as for buffing parry, just make it reflect projectiles and perhaps increase the window by a frame.

you seem to be referencing my spill on pichu. I'm talking about clear objectives and strengths.

I can watch a match, see pichu, and immediately know what pichu's gameplan is within 10 sec of the match. Fox I think needs to be seen a bit more.

Not knowing the character makes it harder to watch. Obviously.

I'm saying more homogeneity isn't necessarily a bad thing is all.

 

[SwagGuy99]

So on the topic of , I think I figured out one of the reasons that he seems to be harder to play and a bit worse in Ultimate.

While in Smash 4, he was a pretty low-risk high reward character who could get rewarded off of landing a grab or getting a down-b off stage at 0%.

Now, in Ultimate, Luigi has to work a lot harder to get the reward. And while the reward part of this may be even greater in Ultimate than in 4 due to his higher kill potential overall, offstage is riskier, getting a grab is riskier, and because most characters got huge buffs to frame data, even following up on an attack can be riskier.

Just some thoughts that I figured I'd put down in here.

 

[KakuCP9]

I still think the tether is a net buff since it gives him a decent mid-range tool to scoop up people trying to zone him out with buttons (and it's not that laggy for a tether).
But what really struck me about the Wadi Vs Elegant match how Elegant used Tornado in neutral, trying to leverage its invinciblity to brute force his way through neutral. What a madman.

 

[Rizen]

I'm having a bit of a character crisis but it's more of a competitive gaming crisis in general. For a while I was doing good and getting 9th out of 119 players but I never reached or exceeded that peak since. I've hit a glass ceiling. Or many glass ceilings truthfully. Part of it is I'm really feeling 's limitations but the larger part is me.

___________________

Let's start with the character crisis. YL is a solid high tier but damnit if he isn't technical as hell and balanced by poor stats. I get how void feels about Pichu; it's hard playing a character who, although with good tools, has to outplay most opponents 3 times as much as they outplay you.

YL has to work harder to to the same things as top tiers too. Last weekly I didn't know how heavy Joker was and my Fair1>land popped him up too much at 110% for Dsmash to combo and I lost 2 kill confirms simply from MU inexperience. You have to take into account the floatiness and %s for optimal combos. Wolf can simply Bair and be done with it. This is why YL will never be flavor of the week, it's the same for Shulk, he has to work harder to do the same things as better characters. In a competitive fighting game this is a real crutch. It's hard enough outplaying opponents without having to keep track of a bunch of factors. Rather than optimize my combos I'm developing a system to simplify them so I can preform bread and butter combos from muscle memory. It's better to get a little less reward than miss entirely.

YL has amazing projectile zoning but at the cost of CQC. Yeah he looks awesome when preforming his combos but he really needs the opponent to be off balance to get to that point. His jab is f6, slower than the standard swordsman jab of f5. His tether grab is F12 and this is a huge disadvantage when faced with shields. You have to go for a risky read anytime you grab. Despite sub-average frame data, YL's sword is short and gets out-zoned by actual swordsmen and heavies. His strikes don't have good option coverage as all his aerials either stab out in a line (Uair) or swing on the Z axis (Fair) so he gets blind spots unlike Lucina. This is what balances zoners! There's a circle around sword characters like Ike, Lucina or even DK that they're better at CQC in. Rushdowns suffocate you with far superior frame data once they get in. Zoners are given projectiles because they have to zone. If you think projectiles are OP you try playing YL in a 128 man tournament and see how far you get.

I don't want to get too down on YL; he has an amazing neutral that transitions into good combos. His f4 Nair is awesome; it out-buttons the majority of the cast and only has 6f landing lag so it's hard to punish. Like I said YL is a solid high tier.

__________________

So am I blaming YL for my losses? Yes and no. If I really wanted to win I'd pick up a top tier. And I don't blame anyone for doing so; Salem was smart to drop Link for Snake and I'd be smart to do the same. But at the same time I'm not just losing to bad MUs. I got beaten by a DK and Ganon who were very good at shielding.

So why am I beating 2-4 people before getting taken out of bracket. Lets put YL aside for a minute. 1 I'm getting too wrapped up in my own head about optimizing YL's combos (that didn't last long did it?) and trying to integrate things like Fair1>Dtilt>jump>upB like Tweek does that work out if all the stars align. In the meantime I'm throwing out unsafe CQC options on block. This is a trap that a lot of technical character players fall into: neglecting fundamental spacing and safety for optimized advantage states.

2 I'm trying to imitate Tweek's playstyle and pressing lots of buttons. But are the buttons meaningful? This is what separates the top players from mid level players. Yes they might throw out smash attacks but as calculated risks. Their attacks mean something and aren't just for the sake of pressing buttons. Unfortunately there's no easy solution to this issue as it comes with experience and in a game with 70+ characters it is hard to be consistent, even for top players. You have to do the best you can but you have to do something. Which brings me to...

3 how well am I adapting? You have to adapt to new situations and MUs. Sometimes I do and sometimes I don't. This is another tricky issue that comes with experience. One thing I do know is it's important to reflect in between games, especially ones you lose, and make a conscious effort about it.

4 let's not forget bracket luck. If I get the Wolf player who places second at big tournaments it kind of sucks (this happened to me twice). The important thing is that I learned something.

____________

So, where do I go from here? I could pick up a high tier main but I've always been a Link loyalist because he's the most fun to play. I'm not making my money off tournaments so it's important I enjoy them.

I could get a secondary. YL is appearing to be more and more of a polarizing character so a secondary isn't a bad idea. Maybe I'll use Link or maybe I'll be smart and learn Lucina. It depends on who's the most enjoyable to play. Either way, this is worth pursuing.

I'm trying to find someone to help me practice in between weeklies. Practice, with good people is always a good option.

Or maybe I'm spending too much time writing ****ing essays on video games :/. But Esports are as legit as as other table top games like Chess or ping pong. This is the 21st century. Games are important socially and culturally. If I enjoy them and don't go too far overboard, what's the harm?

_____________

In the end, I've got a lot to think about.

 

[Terotrous]

I love Mii Brawler (You can beat people up as Jesus, come on.) but playing them is a bit of a nightmare.
I always manage to rack up a lot of damage but i can never seem to get that final blow and send my opponent flying into the stratosphere.

I thought this was the generally accepted strategy on how to play Mii Brawler

Step 1: Shotput
Step 2: Continue Shotputting
Step 3: Upsmash?
Step 4: Upsmash whiffed, back to Shotput

 

[Game7a1]

So am I blaming YL for my losses? Yes and no. If I really wanted to win I'd pick up a top tier. And I don't blame anyone for doing so; Salem was smart to drop Link for Snake and I'd be smart to do the same. But at the same time I'm not just losing to bad MUs. I got beaten by a DK and Ganon who were very good at shielding.

So why am I beating 2-4 people before getting taken out of bracket. Lets put YL aside for a minute. 1 I'm getting too wrapped up in my own head about optimizing YL's combos (that didn't last long did it?) and trying to integrate things like Fair1>Dtilt>jump>upB like Tweek does that work out if all the stars align. In the meantime I'm throwing out unsafe CQC options on block. This is a trap that a lot of technical character players fall into: neglecting fundamental spacing and safety for optimized advantage states.

2 I'm trying to imitate Tweek's playstyle and pressing lots of buttons. But are the buttons meaningful? This is what separates the top players from mid level players. Yes they might throw out smash attacks but as calculated risks. Their attacks mean something and aren't just for the sake of pressing buttons. Unfortunately there's no easy solution to this issues as it comes with experience and in a game with 70+ characters it is hard to be consistent, even for top players. You have to do the best you can but you have to do something. Which brings me to...

3 how well am I adapting? You have to adapt to new situations and MUs. Sometimes I do and sometimes I don't. This is another tricky issue that comes with experience. One thing I do know is it's important to reflect in between games, especially ones you lose, and make a conscious effort about it.

4 let's not forget bracket luck. If I get the Wolf player who places second at big tournaments it kind of sucks (this happened to me twice). The important thing is that I learned something.

____________

So, where do I go from here? I could pick up a high tier main but I've always been a Link loyalist because he's the most fun to play. I'm not making my money off tournaments so it's important I enjoy them.

I could get a secondary. YL is appearing to be more and more of a polarizing character so a secondary isn't a bad idea. Maybe I'll use Link or maybe I'll be smart and learn Lucina. It depends on who's the most enjoyable to play. Either way, this is worth pursuing.

I'm trying to find someone to help me practice in between weeklies. Practice, with good people is always a good option.

Or maybe I'm spending too much time writing ****ing essays on video games :/. But Esports are as legit as as other table top games like Chess or ping pong. This is the 21st century. Games are important socially and culturally. If I enjoy them and don't go too far overboard, what's the harm?

_____________

In the end, I've got a lot to think about.

Honestly, I recommend going back to the basics and building up your fundamentals. Work on your spacing, your movement, your recovery, when and how you act, dictating the pace of the game, etc. If you're getting to wrapped up on how to do certain combos or initiating a playstyle, then you're overlooking more important details like what the opponent is going to do next and where the two of you are. It's like a tunnel vision, but instead of focusing on only one thing on the screen, you're getting worked up over some intricate combo to do when something as simple as a N-air could suffice. The simple tools that work are those that'll continually work since they're ones you can both recall and implement easily, whereas combos you may feel that are too long or have not labbed extensively tend to be harder to put into action. Once you start feeling comfortable in the matchup (either in general or during a set) and making the right calls is when you can go for the powerful but difficult to input options like the combo you mentioned.

You could change or add more characters to play, and that can help provide new outlooks on what to improve (or find a better character that suits you), but the most important thing is to take a step back and remember which mistakes you're making and how you can build from your foundation with that potentially newfound knowledge. Changing characters will only be a band-aid to the problem if you choose to ignore the cruxes of your play. Do not feel beat up for losing to characters that your character or characters win or where you put them on a tier list. Instead, take the time to understand that other character and see what options you can pursue to overcome them next time. If you must during a set, you can take the time to understand another character or player's options by playing slow and using the time you have to gather enough information to readily implement.

I only say these things since I've had to advise those in a similar rut (usually those in my university club that enter locals) and needed a step in the right direction (something I can empathize since I was as well back in mid-Smash 4 meta) After a while, they improved and felt happier as a result. Do not take the losses to heart and feel overwhelmed. Instead, take them as educational opportunities and seize the lessons learned from them. Oh, and watch some of your VODs if you can.

 

[DelugeFGC]

I'm having a bit of a character crisis but it's more of a competitive gaming crisis in general. For a while I was doing good and getting 9th out of 119 players but I never reached or exceeded that peak since. I've hit a glass ceiling. Or many glass ceilings truthfully. Part of it is I'm really feeling 's limitations but the larger part is me.

___________________

Let's start with the character crisis. YL is a solid high tier but damnit if he isn't technical as hell and balanced by poor stats. I get how void feels about Pichu; it's hard playing a character who, although with good tools, has to outplay most opponents 3 times as much as they outplay you.

YL has to work harder to to the same things as top tiers too. Last weekly I didn't know how heavy Joker was and my Fair1>land popped him up too much at 110% for Dsmash to combo and I lost 2 kill confirms simply from MU inexperience. You have to take into account the floatiness and %s for optimal combos. Wolf can simply Bair and be done with it. This is why YL will never be flavor of the week, it's the same for Shulk, he has to work harder to do the same things as better characters. In a competitive fighting game this is a real crutch. It's hard enough outplaying opponents without having to keep track of a bunch of factors. Rather than optimize my combos I'm developing a system to simplify them so I can preform bread and butter combos from muscle memory. It's better to get a little less reward than miss entirely.

YL has amazing projectile zoning but at the cost of CQC. Yeah he looks awesome when preforming his combos but he really needs the opponent to be off balance to get to that point. His jab is f6, slower than the standard swordsman jab of f5. His tether grab is F12 and this is a huge disadvantage when faced with shields. You have to go for a risky read anytime you grab. Despite sub-average frame data, YL's sword is short and gets out-zoned by actual swordsmen and heavies. His strikes don't have good option coverage as all his aerials either stab out in a line (Uair) or swing on the Z axis (Fair) so he gets blind spots unlike Lucina. This is what balances zoners! There's a circle around sword characters like Ike, Lucina or even DK that they're better at CQC in. Rushdowns suffocate you with far superior frame data once they get in. Zoners are given projectiles because they have to zone. If you think projectiles are OP you try playing YL in a 128 man tournament and see how far you get.

I don't want to get too down on YL; he has an amazing neutral that transitions into good combos. His f4 Nair is awesome; it out-buttons the majority of the cast and only has 6f landing lag so it's hard to punish. Like I said YL is a solid high tier.

__________________

So am I blaming YL for my losses? Yes and no. If I really wanted to win I'd pick up a top tier. And I don't blame anyone for doing so; Salem was smart to drop Link for Snake and I'd be smart to do the same. But at the same time I'm not just losing to bad MUs. I got beaten by a DK and Ganon who were very good at shielding.

So why am I beating 2-4 people before getting taken out of bracket. Lets put YL aside for a minute. 1 I'm getting too wrapped up in my own head about optimizing YL's combos (that didn't last long did it?) and trying to integrate things like Fair1>Dtilt>jump>upB like Tweek does that work out if all the stars align. In the meantime I'm throwing out unsafe CQC options on block. This is a trap that a lot of technical character players fall into: neglecting fundamental spacing and safety for optimized advantage states.

2 I'm trying to imitate Tweek's playstyle and pressing lots of buttons. But are the buttons meaningful? This is what separates the top players from mid level players. Yes they might throw out smash attacks but as calculated risks. Their attacks mean something and aren't just for the sake of pressing buttons. Unfortunately there's no easy solution to this issue as it comes with experience and in a game with 70+ characters it is hard to be consistent, even for top players. You have to do the best you can but you have to do something. Which brings me to...

3 how well am I adapting? You have to adapt to new situations and MUs. Sometimes I do and sometimes I don't. This is another tricky issue that comes with experience. One thing I do know is it's important to reflect in between games, especially ones you lose, and make a conscious effort about it.

4 let's not forget bracket luck. If I get the Wolf player who places second at big tournaments it kind of sucks (this happened to me twice). The important thing is that I learned something.

____________

So, where do I go from here? I could pick up a high tier main but I've always been a Link loyalist because he's the most fun to play. I'm not making my money off tournaments so it's important I enjoy them.

I could get a secondary. YL is appearing to be more and more of a polarizing character so a secondary isn't a bad idea. Maybe I'll use Link or maybe I'll be smart and learn Lucina. It depends on who's the most enjoyable to play. Either way, this is worth pursuing.

I'm trying to find someone to help me practice in between weeklies. Practice, with good people is always a good option.

Or maybe I'm spending too much time writing ****ing essays on video games :/. But Esports are as legit as as other table top games like Chess or ping pong. This is the 21st century. Games are important socially and culturally. If I enjoy them and don't go too far overboard, what's the harm?

_____________

In the end, I've got a lot to think about.

I feel this way right now about Joker, and everything in my mind is screaming for me to go back to Olimar as the ONLY local I've taken Joker to resulted in me washing out in Loser's very early on in a tournament without pools.. so that's really doing poorly. I can land all the combos and bust out my hours-and-hours of honed advantage state skills, but spacing moves properly in neutral and going for stuff that isn't 100% bread and butter does get kind of hard with him. Joker however is not a character I want to drop, I absolutely adore his playstyle and he kind of ticks all the boxes I want in a character.. but I'm having a hard time placing him higher than the ass end of high tier until more optimization / buffs go down. The character genuinely CAN have a hell of a time killing sometimes if you don't have Arsene or get them offstage, and a lot of the times I feel when I'm doing VERY well and just wrecking at the start of a match.. I'm gaining very little out of it because you don't get Arsene by winning. You get Arsene by eating fat combos / hits OR by being reactionary / defensive as hell with his counter.

This is a real problem for me, I'm not a big risk taker. I have a very aggressive playstyle, yes, but I love my safe options. This is part of the reason Olimar appeals to me so heavily, he has all of the sorts of things I like in a character PLUS his kit sets up for a lot of MENTAL Smash play, if that makes sense. Olimar is a little option whoring ****boy, you seldomly find yourself in bad positions with him outside of disadvantage and even that is leagues better than what some other characters have to work with. So I'll end up absolutely bodying someone for the first 80-120% of a stock, only to get stuck with them playing SUPER safe all of a sudden. Now I have to try to land 2-4 hits to build up the remaining % for a kill, knock them offstage and EG / gimp them, or be absolutely stupid and risk my stock to bring Arsene out.

Just on top of a lot of the things you said man, I relate. Especially the way about how technical characters can trap their players into certain styles of gameplay. Me and you both share the struggle of using a character that has a more nuanced 'kill' game than most, and we have to work a lot harder to convert our flashy, hype combos into something meaningful. I don't have a lot of advice to offer atm, you could probably offer me more than I could offer you honestly as I've learned recently I'm probably not as good as I thought I was, but I ain't ready to throw in the towel or anything either.

I just wanted to say man, I relate.. boy do I. Ever since I decided to focus on Joker, a lot of me has been left wondering how much of Olimar was carrying me, as he is a top tier.. Because the transition from a top tier to a lower tier has not gone stellar for me in places where results matter. I'm 50/50, sometimes I have hype ass games that make me look like I really know what I'm doing and maybe I could even contribute to this character's meta growth.. then in another match my neutral becomes 'Timmy from Day Care' grade and I just keep trying to go for all my safe / B&B crap without ever taking any risks or going for many reads.

I'm just left in a position where I'm wondering if all those good results I managed to get, the money matches I managed to win.. was that me? Or was it Olimar? Problem is, I think I love Olimar just AS A CHARACTER in Smash as much as I do Joker, and picking a main over the two is becoming difficult. I want to main Joker, but the crusty competitive player in me is screaming at me to keep maining the top tier that's probably carried me to some extent. I'm really not sure what to do.

 

[Sean²]

I don’t believe in character crises, only player crises. What’s wrong with keeping a strong secondary? I do it and feel a lot less stress in bad matchups because I can always whip out my secondary if need be.

 

[DelugeFGC]

I don’t believe in character crises, only player crises. What’s wrong with keeping a strong secondary? I do it and feel a lot less stress in bad matchups because I can always whip out my secondary if need be.

I'm more stuck in a situation where I want to main two characters outright, and I'm also left wondering if my month-long run of pretty damned decent local results was entirely based around me being carried by Olimar or if any of it was actually me.

I don't like the idea of putting too much time / effort into a secondary right now as I feel it's spreading myself too thin. Part of me just does want to stick to Olimar because top tiers aren't known for having abysmal MU's and you can get away with sticking to one character and not worrying about a secondary. 4-6 months in the future I will be happy to invest REAL time into secondaries, but right now my secondary picks are almost entirely based around a select handful of MU's I can't seem to do piss-all in with Joker.

I'm going back to maining Olimar, but I'm gonna try to keep Joker as a secondary main. I really hope the day where I feel comfortable enough to stick to Joker all the time comes sooner rather than later, as I really do love playing Joker and I really do see good potential in him.. but I would be lying if part of me didn't want a character right now that I already know how to get results with, carried or not. That's my thing.

I can't pretend like having some of the most disgusting burst % potential in the entire game, disgusting frame data / range smash attacks and all the other stuff that goes into Olimar doesn't play a part in why I like him so much.. but there really is something about him I like. I tried to main Falcon in my brief time with Sm4sh, but Olimar was the character I kept using even though he did NOT feel fantastic back then. I also exclusively used Olimar and MK in Brawl. I like Ult Falcon but his few problems end up being so severe it completely guts his neutral game and rockcrocking not even gonna lie pisses me off when it happens to me and doesn't feel fair. So despite liking Joker as much as I do.. the Space Cowboy calls my name.

 

[Glerma]

I have been working on Pichu a lot but I really struggle with smaller characters. I cannot combo them easily after 20% and short hop aerials are meh because there is a good chance that I will just go over them. So I have been practicing with Lucina a bit as a secondary (I am a sl*t for top tier...I am also bad and need it lmao) to counter balance my MU struggles when I am playing pichu, I also think my Lucina is just generally better since she is a lot easier to learn than Pichu with how easy it is to get clapped as Pichu. But I am struggling with consistently landing falling aerials, which I need to do for Lucina to work against shorter characters or I am suddenly stuck grounded since I am more likely to be whiff punished than actually do something useful. I will be going to my first tournament in a month or so and that will help me figure out what I am with a main, aka who I only get 2 stocked on instead of 3 stocked. This was sort of a wall of text, but I think my general point was see if you are the cause for your main's MU issues, like how I struggle with smaller characters, Pichu does too, but a large part of it is me, and then try and pick a secondary to counter balance it. i got lucky because I was playing Lucina before she was considered top tier and just genuinely enjoyed her, so it was an easy transition. Honestly not really sure if that was actually what I was going for...mostly just procrastinating work now...

 

[Sean²]

I think that several years down the line, without too many sweeping changes via DLC, Olimar will probably be the only solo-mainable character remaining at high levels. Maybe Peach as well, but that's debatable. Seeing as she already got a pretty noticeable change with her Neutral B, I feel like she's going to be this game's Sheik. I feel like Snake may get a similar treatment. Solo mainable now, but those 2 characters already got noticeable changes in this patch. The rest of the current perceived top tiers already have their exploitable weaknesses that have forced their best mains to switch off them during crucial games. I know Shuton went Richter at Frostbite but that was for a mirror match...I can understand why he might not like that matchup.

 

[Glerma]

I think that several years down the line, without too many sweeping changes via DLC, Olimar will probably be the only solo-mainable character remaining at high levels. Maybe Peach as well, but that's debatable. Seeing as she already got a pretty noticeable change with her Neutral B, I feel like she's going to be this game's Sheik. I feel like Snake may get a similar treatment. Solo mainable now, but those 2 characters already got noticeable changes in this patch. The rest of the current perceived top tiers already have their exploitable weaknesses that have forced their best mains to switch off them during crucial games. I know Shuton went Richter at Frostbite but that was for a mirror match...I can understand why he might not like that matchup.

Does anyone know what changed between previous games to cause secondaries to not just be a thing, but to be more expected than not. I did not pay attention to competitive smash before ultimate, but from what people have said it seems like secondaries were not super common before ultimate.

 

[Sean²]

They were pretty common in S4, too, especially among top players. There are just an exponential number of possible matchups in Ultimate, meaning more possible counterpicks for your main, and more matchups to learn, as there aren't just a small handful of characters dominating the meta that you need to worry about. You need to worry about how your character interacts with a big chunk of the roster. Something infeasible if you can't play for several hours every day, seeking out really good players of certain characters for unfamiliar matchups to grind with - basically making a career out of it. In Brawl and Melee, you generally only need to get super familiar with a small pool of characters and you're golden. With the current character situation in Ultimate, it's simply easier to have your own counterpick waiting in the wings, just in case.

 

[Glerma]

Oh, I did not think about the roster size/better balance. That makes a lot of sense, thank you.

 

[Avokha]

I have a somewhat hot take when it comes to the topic of solo viability and it being easier to just use a secondary to tackle MUs that would take time learn with your main; I don't think learning all (soon to be) 80 match ups as one character is as hard as most people make it out to be. Unless your entry point into the smash scene and series was ultimate, I feel that you should already have a good idea of many of the MUs ins and outs, with the only differences being accounting for character and engine changes, which imo really isn't that difficult to do. Assuming your coming from smash 4, that's already 58 MUs covered, which leaves only 22 new MUs to learn (actually even less than that if we're discounting echoes and unreleased DLC), a little less than the size of melees roster. It looks to me like it just comes down to lower level players seeking out an easy way out of learning and wanting to jump right into the victory screen if I'm honest