Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

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Falco_DJ

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I'm pretty sure people posting personal tier lists is kind of frowned upon in this thread. There's a bunch of rules on the first page.
I'll look at the rules again, but a mod told me that Impressions/viability talk should be in this thread. I though tier list were sort of impressions.

Edit: I've just read the rules and I don't think this is breaking any rules. If my tier list turns into an argument, and/or if it has broken any rules I will contact a moderator about removing it.

Although I didn't mention it in my initial post my tier list is unfinished, but close to done and I wanted to get some help on character placement.
 
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I've bee working on this for a while now. Here is My Super Smash Bros Ultimate Ver. 2.0 Tier list!
I have all of PT's Pokemon on the bottom in their own place, ranked from best to worst. I do not think they are the worst characters, I'm just ranking them aside from everybody else. Their ranking is represented by Pokemon Trainer. (In S Tier)
someone tell shiek to climb down from there. she could fall and break her arm. then her fair might only do 1.5 percent instead of 3.

i mean do you really want people to go through this list? cause i'll be blunt when it comes to my main.
 

Falco_DJ

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someone tell shiek to climb down from there. she could fall and break her arm. then her fair might only do 1.5 percent instead of 3.

i mean do you really want people to go through this list? cause i'll be blunt when it comes to my main.
Hi, you're right! Shiek's placement is wrong my tier list is unfinished and I wanted to get some help on character placement, that's why I posted it even though it isn't done. Where would you recommend putting her?
 

Gleam

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Tier1::ultwolf::ultfox::ultpeach::ultpalutena::ultpichu::ultsnake::ultlucina::ultinkling::ultolimar::ultike:

Tier2::ultgreninja::ultwario::ultmegaman::ultness::ultpokemontrainer::ultmario::ultchrom::ultroy::ultrob::ultyounglink:

Tier3:ultzss::ultyoshi::ultcloud::ultlink::ultpikachu::ultkingdedede::ultridley::ultsonic::ultpacman::ultsimon:

Tier4::ultbowser::ultbayonetta::ultdk::ultsamus::ulttoonlink::ultfalcon::ultfalco::ultmewtwo::ultmetaknight::ulticeclimbers:

Tier5::ultshulk::ultluigi::ultgnw::ultdiddy::ultdoc::ultsheik::ultlucas::ultganondorf::ultmarth::ultincineroar:

Tier6: :ultlucario::ultrobin::ultrosalina::ultdarkpit::ultzelda::ultwiifittrainer::ultvillager::ultjigglypuff::ultisabelle::ultken:

Tier7 :ultkrool::ultbowserjr::ultduckhunt::ultcorrin::ultswordfighter::ultpit::ultpiranha::ultryu::ultlittlemac::ultgunner:

Tier8::ultkirby::ultbrawler:


Here's my "Tier List" and you might notice some strange things. That's because this list is entirely based on the current "April 2nd" OrionStats tournament character list which I think alone gives a good idea of where these characters stand in the game and in the meta overall. It is so easy and I think kind of annoying how people want to utilize phrases such as "Being Slept On" or forcing the idea that one character is better or worse by personal bias.

You can take a list like this, fluctuate each character by 3-5 spaces (which can make some jump up or down a tier here and there) and you'd have little argument to that placement. Probably because, with exceptions that will be noted below, you don't have an argument.

Some of these exceptions are :ultmarth::ultpikachu:whom we know have data depicting good characters but are often, especially in Marth's case, paled by their more popular and often better clones. It can also be argued that characters like Miis, Wii Fit Trainer and Shulk also suffer under issue of lack of popularity. There are definitely outliers.

Now, the overall placement of the characters (besides the outliers) is less concerned with whether it's in Tier 2 or Tier 3, again, if necessary you can make certain adjustments. I don't think Bowser and DK are an entire Tier below Ridley. But I want to utilize this as a way to help deter certain biases and get people to see what the actual representation of the characters are.

There can be some difficulty in distinguishing certain placements, such as where does "Top Tier" end and "High Tier" begin? But if you are going to make a list, I think you should check out the OrionStats which is updated regularly here below.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1AJs-mj5TTdkmkl7nhj4twJymVPTLTUdT0MBToL1cxDs/edit#gid=0

This is why I hate seeing people put :ultridley: in Low Tier because as a Main, I want my characters to have a good impression. It was really hard back in the old days of Brawl because I really wanted to prove that Ganondorf was decent. I wanted to work on him, go to tournaments, etc. I remember the day we found the "Flight of Ganon" and we realize Ganon could fly. But ultimately, we had to admit that the King of Evil was the King of Suck.

When people like Trela, Vreyus, Locus, Venom and other Ridley mains show just how well Ridley can do. When Trela beats one of the best Ness players we know of or when they make these great placements in Prime Saga. When they push Ridley to make this decent spot in OrionStat, surpassing characters I'd argue are pretty good too.

It fills me with a sense of pride and joy that a character I love using, does have merit behind him.

And it fills me with anger that instead of acknowledging the hard work people have put into Ridley or any character who has shown decent to good results, instead ridicule and push them down, often insulting the hard work that dozens upon dozens of people, both professional and otherwise have put into these characters.
 
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Hi, you're right! Shiek's placement is wrong my tier list is unfinished and I wanted to get some help on character placement, that's why I posted it even though it isn't done. Where would you recommend putting her?
shiek has been heavily hurt by everyone else receiving buffs to landing lag and combo damage. as she currently is she does nothing that most other good to decent combo characters cannot do. im no shiek expert but when moves do that little damage theres a chance they wont be safe on hit which is everyone's worst nightmare. i'd say she is in low tier end of c or top end of d.
bayo and shiek have similar issues id honestly put them right next to each other.
 

Diddy Kong

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There's much I disagree with but I'd like to focus on :ultganondorf:. He's one of my secondaries and I can't see him that high, especially above DK. As strong as Ganon seems when he makes the right reads, he gets shut down at least as hard. Unlike DK and Bowser, his mobility and recovery are complete garbage. Ganon's oddly a glass cannon because his recovery is so poor he dies at 120% from not being able to make it back to the ledge. That takes away a lot of his heavyweight perks.
I think he's very easy to play and popular yet doesn't have any results. He's lower mid tier imo.
I also don’t think that Ganondorf is better than DK, or Diddy even. But comparing him to DK now, I know that Ganondorf at least has his crazy N Air as a solid advantage over DK and the other heavies. The sword and it’s huge range and above the head hit box is also a solid advantage. Then again, DK can take stocks just as quickly through grabs and spikes. And of course Giant Punch.

Whatever happened to Konga!? I’ve been asking this for a little while now. But this dude was heavily advanced in his game play in the earlier days, husband parries where often literally perfect and that DK was sexy as ****!
 

Lacrimosa

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I've bee working on this for a while now. Here is My Super Smash Bros Ultimate Ver. 2.0 Tier list!
I have all of PT's Pokemon on the bottom in their own place, ranked from best to worst. I do not think they are the worst characters, I'm just ranking them aside from everybody else. Their ranking is represented by Pokemon Trainer. (In S Tier)
Some characters may need a little explanation, maybe you can help:
Too low: Wario, Ness, R.O.B., Greninja (why?)
I think I've seen a good amount of these characters, especially Ness (because of Fow) and I'd like to see why they are there. As for characters placed too high: I won't contest that. I am in the mindset that characters should be based more of their strengths then of their weaknesses which is why I have the tendency to place characters not all that low in general.
 

Monete

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The quality of this thread has been decreasing for a while.

****y tier lists, character fanboys, low quality game plays etc.

If you dont know what you are talking about dont post. Your personal experience doesnt mean anything if you are not a high level player and if you want to learn and talk about something watch high level players. Now a day is easy with YouTube and Twitch.

Thank god this weekend is Prime saga
 

Lore

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The quality of this thread has been decreasing for a while.

****y tier lists, character fanboys, low quality game plays etc.

If you dont know what you are talking about dont post. Your personal experience doesnt mean anything if you are not a high level player and if you want to learn and talk about something watch high level players. Now a day is easy with YouTube and Twitch.

Thank god this weekend is Prime saga
Hi. I'm very happy to see that a pro player has popped in to say something about the quality of the thread.

Wait, you aren't a pro player? You don't know what you are talking about? Your personal experience, by your own statement, doesn't matter? Then don't post this.

Telling people what to post isn't your job, neither is determining the quality of the thread. People enjoy posting in this thread and discussing characters, simple as that. Please refrain from making posts in the future like this one.
 
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The quality of this thread has been decreasing for a while.

****y tier lists, character fanboys, low quality game plays etc.

If you dont know what you are talking about dont post. Your personal experience doesnt mean anything if you are not a high level player and if you want to learn and talk about something watch high level players. Now a day is easy with YouTube and Twitch.

Thank god this weekend is Prime saga

I kinda agree with this but I dont really agree with you discouraging people not to post. I think it's important to hear other people's thoughts and ideas about the game even if they maybe lacking. My biggest gripe is that people don't really express their ideas and they just parrot top players opinions. But yeah man this stuff is never going to be perfect though and there's always going to be low and high points.
 

Lore

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On tier lists: Posting full tier lists doesn't really equal quality content, and that's something that does need to be discussed.

Look at it this way. You see someone post a tier list. How, exactly, can you respond? "Man this tier list is pretty good/bad! Just a few placements are different than what I would post." Now repeat that response for nearly every single tier list that gets posted.

Know what does get replies and discussion? Posting about a single character and asking for thoughts. Tier lists are unfocused piles of content without much you can reply to, while single character posts focus the conversation into looking at the intricacies of one character.


As per the OP, please refrain from filling the thread with tier lists. Instead, focus more on specific characters that you want to discuss.
 
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The quality of this thread has been decreasing for a while.

****y tier lists, character fanboys, low quality game plays etc.

If you dont know what you are talking about dont post. Your personal experience doesnt mean anything if you are not a high level player and if you want to learn and talk about something watch high level players. Now a day is easy with YouTube and Twitch.

Thank god this weekend is Prime saga
Your post is probably the lowest-quality post in several pages. Low effort, aggressive, arrogant, insulting.

Not to mention wrong. High level players are wrong all the time. Being good at a game isn't the same as being good at analyzing it. There are top players with totally conflicting viewpoints about the direction this game will go and what makes a character strong.
 

Phoenix_is_OK

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To hop onto the Cloud thing, the character has too much good **** to be considered, by his own lists standards, as a lower threat than characters with massive flaws. Cloud is an insanely safe, massively disjointed character that suffers from two issues:

Approaching

Recovery

And, unlike other characters who have giant flaws, he has a magic button that solve both of those. He gets a get out of jail card for 15 seconds, and he doesn't ever need to approach thanks to the power of *pressure*.

Without limit, you have a character similar to the likes of Chrom: quick movement, solid strings, with more range at the expense of some frames and raw kill options. And with limit he suddenly has that.

His aerials are some of the best working in the game when it comes to how well they complete each other. His Uair is still a god at juggling, his Bair is the size of a minibus, his Fair greatly benefits from the landing lag improvement and can now be utilized fully, his Nair comes out frame 5 (IIRC) from the back and is safe, a combo tool, and can edgeguard, and his Dair is not something you ever want to challenge.

He has reliable tilts, Ftilt nets him kills, Utilt gives him combos, Dtilt gives him combos/ closes gaps.

His Fsmash kills stupid early off of a read, his Dsmash comes out quick, and his Usmash covers an entire platform.

He has a projectile that can force you to approach, and functions similarly to Wolf shutting down zoners with "B", his Down B is straight pressure, his side B is semi-safe on shield and does a nice and sexy 20%, and his Up B is a frame 7 OoS option.

He's an insanely competent, amazing character and M2K treats him like he's Little Mac. Cloud is great in this game, and if limit was forever I'd argue he'd be top 10 thanks to his one problem vanishing.
 
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Lil Puddin

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Prime Saga top 64 seeding

https://smash.gg/tournament/2gg-prime-saga-1/events/ultimate-singles/standings?page=1

1. MKleo :ultike::ultlucina:
2. Tweek :ultwario::ultwolf:
3. Light :ultfox:
4. Marss:ultzss:
5. Samsora:ultpeach:
6. Nairo:ultpalutena::ultganondorf:
7. Dabuz:ultolimar::ultpalutena:
8. VoiD:ultpichu:
9. Zackray:ultwolf::ultwario:
10. Glutonny:ultwario:
11. Shuton :ultolimar::ultrichter:
12. ESAM :ultpikachu::ultsamus:
13. Myran:ultolimar:
14. Wadi:ultrob:
15. Salem:ultsnake:
16. Mr.R:ultchrom::ultsnake:
17. CaptainZack:ultdaisy::ultbayonetta:
18. Tea:ultpacman:
19. Larry Lurr:ultfox::ultwolf::ultfalco:
20. Ally:ultsnake::ultmario:
21. Stroder:ultgreninja::ultlucina:
22. Pandarian:ultpokemontrainer::ultsquirtle::ultivysaur::ultcharizard:
23. Mr.E:ultlucina::ultmarth:
24. Nicko:ultshulk:
25. Leffen :ultroy::ultpokemontrainer::ultsquirtle::ultivysaur::ultcharizard:
26. Imhip:ultolimar::ultduckhunt:
27. Eon:ultpichu::ultfox:
28. CaptainL:ultpichu::ultjigglypuff:
29. T:ultlink::ultyounglink:
30. Magister:ultincineroar::ultvillager:
31. Prodigy:ultmario:
32. Luis:ultdoc::ultfox:
33. Juice:ultzss:
34. K9sbruce:ultwolf:
35. Klaatu:ultolimar:
36. Trela:ultridley:
37. Zenyou:ultmario:
38. Javi:ultlink:
39. Legit:ultpichu::ultdiddy:
40. Zaki:ultkingdedede:
41. BessNess:ultness:
42. Razo:ultpeach:
43. Charliedaking:ultfox::ultsheik:
44. Elegent:ultluigi:
45. SlayerZ:ultpeach:
46. Ultimate Razer:ultsnake:
47. Venom:ultridley::ultryu:
48. Daybreak:ultwolf:
49. Chag :ultinkling::ultpalutena:
50. Akashic:ultgreninja:
51. YB:ultdarksamus:
52. quik:ultzss:
53. Karna:ultlucina:
54. Sparg0:ultcloud:
55. Cookiesslayer:ultyounglink:
56. Shaky:ultness:
57. Mr. Con Con:ultluigi:
58. Locus:ultridley:
59, Mastamario:ultmario:
60. Megafox:ultfox:
61. Xzax:ultinkling:
62. Jonny Westside:ultsnake:
63. TLTC:ultpalutena:
64. Zael:ultpokemontrainer::ultsquirtle::ultivysaur::ultcharizard:
Oof, 64+ different character choices and there's not a single Zelda, WFT, or Robin. Either way...

That means Operation BAN•ZELDA was a sparkling success. :secretkpop:
 

Sean²

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Talking about personal experience should be encouraged, as it is what actually creates discussion. Yeah, saying something like "But I can't beat Little Mac in laggy quickplay with items on! he must be top tier OP pls nerf!" is dumb. But if you play in locals or online tournaments, or even take the game remotely seriously when you play, questioning others opinions on characters should always be seen as valid.

Like some people call me stupid for thinking Wolf has several bad matchups amongst the other commonly-percieved top tiers, and maybe even a couple of the percieved high tier characters, yet no one can prove otherwise. #1 in popularity ≠ #1 in the game.

To hop onto the Cloud thing, the character has too much good **** to be considered, by his own lists standards, as a lower threat than characters with massive flaws. Cloud is an insanely safe, massively disjointed character that suffers from two issues:

Approaching

Recovery

And, unlike other characters who have giant flaws, he has a magic button that solve both of those. He gets a get out of jail card for 15 seconds, and he doesn't ever need to approach thanks to the power of *pressure*.

Without limit, you have a character similar to the likes of Chrom: quick movement, solid strings, with more range at the expense of some frames and raw kill options. And with limit he suddenly has that.

His aerials are some of the best working in the game when it comes to how well they complete each other. His Uair is still a god at juggling, his Bair is the size of a minibus, his Fair greatly benefits from the landing lag improvement and can now be utilized fully, his Nair comes out frame 5 (IIRC) from the back and is safe, a combo tool, and can edgeguard, and his Dair is not something you ever want to challenge.

He has reliable tilts, Ftilt nets him kills, Utilt gives him combos, Dtilt gives him combos/ closes gaps.

His Fsmash kills stupid early off of a read, his Dsmash comes out quick, and his Usmash covers an entire platform.

He has a projectile that can force you to approach, and functions similarly to Wolf shutting down zoners with "B", his Down B is straight pressure, his side B is semi-safe on shield and does a nice and sexy 20%, and his Up B is a frame 7 OoS option.

He's an insanely competent, amazing character and M2K treats him like he's Little Mac. Cloud is great in this game, and if limit was forever I'd argue he'd be top 10 thanks to his one problem vanishing.
That's the thing about Cloud though, he can be both very volatile and very squishy at the same time. Without limit, an offstage Cloud should, in theory, be a dead Cloud. Some characters can exploit him super hard offstage, and while he has the suicide spike with Climhazard, a lot of characters can get their edgeguard option off before he can throw out his up B, e.g. Marth, Lucina, and Inkling.
 
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Repli.Cant

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Let's also not forget Cloud still has Limit Cross Slash, which is still one of the dumbest moves in the game. That alone combined with his other good aspects (speed, frame data, range, Limit (although less so now)) warrants him a spot in at least low high tier.


Though I don't entirely blame M2K for being pessimistic towards Cloud. No one plays the guy now that he's been knocked down a peg, and Wolf pretty much replaced Cloud as the "everyone has a pocket Cloud" meme that cycled since his release in S4. Regardless, that doesn't mean we should just outright ignore everything else the character has going for him.
 

Lacrimosa

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Oof, 64+ different character choices and there's not a single Zelda, WFT, or Robin. Either way...

That means Operation BAN•ZELDA was a sparkling success. :secretkpop:
She's at 66th with Ven (and therefore at Winners Round 2 in thev group phase).
So, yeah. That's that.
Also it seems Jul doesn't take part in this as a Robin main which is a minor bummer but ok.
 
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Impax

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Oof, 64+ different character choices and there's not a single Zelda, WFT, or Robin. Either way...

That means Operation BAN•ZELDA was a sparkling success. :secretkpop:
I think this is the tournament varun is going to. So maybe a wiifit will placd

For reference hes been placing in north cal against players like klaatu
 
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Monete

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I kinda agree with this but I dont really agree with you discouraging people not to post. I think it's important to hear other people's thoughts and ideas about the game even if they maybe lacking. My biggest gripe is that people don't really express their ideas and they just parrot top players opinions. But yeah man this stuff is never going to be perfect though and there's always going to be low and high points.
English is not my first language so maybe i dont express myself.

I dont discourage people posting i encourage them to post after informing themself.

Also pro players misinform the most and M2K tier list is an example what i meant is, that if you are gona post about Game and Watch you should know more than your personal experience and you should watch Maister, Regi, Dingus Joe or read the character discord.

I apologize for being rude i just enjoyed a lot reading Smash4 competitive thread and i feel this one is not what i espected.
 

|RK|

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Prime Saga top 64 seeding

https://smash.gg/tournament/2gg-prime-saga-1/events/ultimate-singles/standings?page=1

1. MKleo :ultike::ultlucina:
2. Tweek :ultwario::ultwolf:
3. Light :ultfox:
4. Marss:ultzss:
5. Samsora:ultpeach:
6. Nairo:ultpalutena::ultganondorf:
7. Dabuz:ultolimar::ultpalutena:
8. VoiD:ultpichu:
9. Zackray:ultwolf::ultwario:
10. Glutonny:ultwario:
11. Shuton :ultolimar::ultrichter:
12. ESAM :ultpikachu::ultsamus:
13. Myran:ultolimar:
14. Wadi:ultrob:
15. Salem:ultsnake:
16. Mr.R:ultchrom::ultsnake:
17. CaptainZack:ultdaisy::ultbayonetta:
18. Tea:ultpacman:
19. Larry Lurr:ultfox::ultwolf::ultfalco:
20. Ally:ultsnake::ultmario:
21. Stroder:ultgreninja::ultlucina:
22. Pandarian:ultpokemontrainer::ultsquirtle::ultivysaur::ultcharizard:
23. Mr.E:ultlucina::ultmarth:
24. Nicko:ultshulk:
25. Leffen :ultroy::ultpokemontrainer::ultsquirtle::ultivysaur::ultcharizard:
26. Imhip:ultolimar::ultduckhunt:
27. Eon:ultpichu::ultfox:
28. CaptainL:ultpichu::ultjigglypuff:
29. T:ultlink::ultyounglink:
30. Magister:ultincineroar::ultvillager:
31. Prodigy:ultmario:
32. Luis:ultdoc::ultfox:
33. Juice:ultzss:
34. K9sbruce:ultwolf:
35. Klaatu:ultolimar:
36. Trela:ultridley:
37. Zenyou:ultmario:
38. Javi:ultlink:
39. Legit:ultpichu::ultdiddy:
40. Zaki:ultkingdedede:
41. BessNess:ultness:
42. Razo:ultpeach:
43. Charliedaking:ultfox::ultsheik:
44. Elegent:ultluigi:
45. SlayerZ:ultpeach:
46. Ultimate Razer:ultsnake:
47. Venom:ultridley::ultryu:
48. Daybreak:ultwolf:
49. Chag :ultinkling::ultpalutena:
50. Akashic:ultgreninja:
51. YB:ultdarksamus:
52. quik:ultzss:
53. Karna:ultlucina:
54. Sparg0:ultcloud:
55. Cookiesslayer:ultyounglink:
56. Shaky:ultness:
57. Mr. Con Con:ultluigi:
58. Locus:ultridley:
59, Mastamario:ultmario:
60. Megafox:ultfox:
61. Xzax:ultinkling:
62. Jonny Westside:ultsnake:
63. TLTC:ultpalutena:
64. Zael:ultpokemontrainer::ultsquirtle::ultivysaur::ultcharizard:
Y'all realize that Captain L probably uses Kirby and Pikachu more than Puff, right?
 

IsmaR

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Honestly can't get over the fact that M2K considers the Belmonts high tier and Cloud as low low mid tier.

It's a truly awful list.
Mew2King is extra critical of characters he's played in the past games, and bases most of his viewpoints on "they were better/different before."
(applies to even his current characters really) M2K's particular style of playing him in Smash 4 could explain it, as he was not known for being one to hold his Limit.

As for some of the specific placements, I'd imagine most of them come from playing with other top players he considers better judges than himself. Apparently Salem has been grinding Lucas/Belmonts from when they stream/practice together, so it seems less theory and more what M2K has personally seen firsthand.
 

Lil Puddin

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Also pro players misinform the most and M2K tier list is an example what i meant is, that if you are gona post about Game and Watch you should know more than your personal experience and you should watch Maister, Regi, Dingus Joe or read the character discord.
I agree with this. It's not really M2K's fault though. The previous Smash games taught us to look at flaws to judge how viable a character is, then from there look at the strengths. The less flaws, the better. Because that means more spamming without much to worry about and eventually winning (thanks Melee). Essentially, we saw 1 flaw as 2 steps back and 1 boon as 1 step forward. Which was kinda true... And that's why Ganon/Zelda/etc were easily Trash Tier without a doubt in anyone's mind. :^)

But SmashU is balanced in such a way that all characters have something strong enough to smack people in the face with. Even Zeldon't has enough tools to have better MUs than before (despite the very core of her character being inherently flawed) - and that's after everyone else got blanket buffs lmao. So now we should probably judge them on their boons and then point out their flaws only as reminders to work around them. The fact M2K thinks Cloud is an entire tier worse (instead of just balanced and knocked down to being almost fair) compared to his Sm4sh debut is just another instance of using the old mindset.

With that said, the 3 Tier placement is adequate for SmashU as of right now. Perhaps up to 5 tiers at most. And at the end of the day, the more vague the tiers are (High/Mid/Low) the more accurate it probably is. SmashU is all about dem blurred lines now. And since patches are likely until the very last DLC character, lists are bound to change anyway.

So TL;DR, we do the reverse for placing characters on the tier list. 2 steps forward for a boon, 1 step back for a flaw. Even then every list will still be subjective or extremely specific and only half-useful outside the specific circumstances (no items, 1v1, Fox only, Final Destination).
 
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To hop onto the Cloud thing, the character has too much good **** to be considered, by his own lists standards, as a lower threat than characters with massive flaws. Cloud is an insanely safe, massively disjointed character that suffers from two issues:

Approaching

Recovery

And, unlike other characters who have giant flaws, he has a magic button that solve both of those. He gets a get out of jail card for 15 seconds, and he doesn't ever need to approach thanks to the power of *pressure*.

Without limit, you have a character similar to the likes of Chrom: quick movement, solid strings, with more range at the expense of some frames and raw kill options. And with limit he suddenly has that.

His aerials are some of the best working in the game when it comes to how well they complete each other. His Uair is still a god at juggling, his Bair is the size of a minibus, his Fair greatly benefits from the landing lag improvement and can now be utilized fully, his Nair comes out frame 5 (IIRC) from the back and is safe, a combo tool, and can edgeguard, and his Dair is not something you ever want to challenge.

He has reliable tilts, Ftilt nets him kills, Utilt gives him combos, Dtilt gives him combos/ closes gaps.

His Fsmash kills stupid early off of a read, his Dsmash comes out quick, and his Usmash covers an entire platform.

He has a projectile that can force you to approach, and functions similarly to Wolf shutting down zoners with "B", his Down B is straight pressure, his side B is semi-safe on shield and does a nice and sexy 20%, and his Up B is a frame 7 OoS option.

He's an insanely competent, amazing character and M2K treats him like he's Little Mac. Cloud is great in this game, and if limit was forever I'd argue he'd be top 10 thanks to his one problem vanishing.
Cloud is a good character just not Lucina good and the nerfs in the transition from 4 to Ultimate are the two main reasons why he doesn't see a lot of play but I expect that to slowly change once people start realizing he's still good just requires some actual effort now.

I will say Limit Charge shouldn't create pressure. Realsticly barring a low percentage gimp Cloud will get limit atleast once possibly even twice a stock, its inevitable even if he doesn't charge it much if at all. Because of this you should never feel like you just have to rush down a limit charging Cloud, rather always stay within a distance that he doesn't feel comfortable charging limit while at the same time not being within range for him to whiff punish you for attempting to directly stop limit charge when it's not safe for you to do so.

This is even more true now that limit has a timer. Once he gets limit he has to take an action in order to use it, if you can camp the timer out or keep him in the air/off stage long enough to burn timer it makes the threat of letting him get limit in the first place less of a scary thing you should feel the need to stop at all costs.
 

Gleam

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 7, 2008
Messages
540
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:ultganondorf: being put so high in some lists, though I think rare, can be based on a few possible things.

1.) As already mentioned, Ganondorf is extremely popular online and excels and punishing in a laggy environment. Online or offline, Ganon's punishment game has been improved vastly. Back in the old days, Ganondorf was bad enough that you could run circles around him, combo him, gimp him and he didn't have nearly enough power behind him so you were willing to take a few licks. Ultimate Ganon however, has this strange ability thanks to his vastly improved power and slightly improved moveset in which he can force opponents to play at his level, especially those without projectiles.

Because he is rewarded so much more for his punishment game. He forces opponents to often slow down and be defensive and excels and punishing over aggression. In an online match with lag can completely throw you off.

2.) Another reason, maybe lesser than the others, is when certain players like NairoMK does happen to do really well with the character. It gives this false idea that, if this pro player can do so well with the character, that character itself must be really good. When, if anything, that just speaks more on the skill of Nairo than the capabilities of Ganondorf. One good player doing well with Ganondorf doesn't say much for the character, but if several players, be they top players or otherwise consistently placed well with Ganon, that would speak far more volumes of the character.

3.) The final reason, and the one that might be the biggest reason, is that thanks to circumstances, opinions have been bloated. Ganondorf was god awful back in Brawl and Smash4. You had a character who was so bad that people were begging for Melee Ganondorf. The thing was, while definitely better, Melee Ganondorf was hardly a good character. He wasn't viable (half the cast wasn't) he had constantly been falling. But even this "Below Average Melee Ganon" just felt so much better than this joke of a fighter we had to go through for 2 games.

And now we've got essentially the same thing. A Ganondorf who at best, might be average but compared to the horrible character of the past, this new Ganondorf feels like a monster who can do no wrong. People have delusion themselves into believe Ganondorf is better than what he actually is and I believe the exact opposite has happened to:ultbayonetta:.

When you look at Bayonetta's results, you get an average character. Nothing special, nothing great but nothing terrible either. But apparently Bayonetta is one of the worst characters ever. I think the idea here is just how people have inflated Ganon's improvements, people have inflated Bayonetta's nerfs. You have a character who was the absolute best character in Smash4 who then dropped 20-30 spots on a general list. That's a big dip, but that doesn't make Bayonetta top 5 worst characters.
 

Lacrimosa

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 31, 2019
Messages
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Germany
Mew2King creates his high tier list right now! Check out the current tier list from M2K!
TOP TIER:
HIGH TIER: :ultpokemontrainer::ultmario::ultike::ultness::ultlucas::ultpacman::ultmegaman::ultyoshi::ultyounglink::ultlink::ultroy::ultchrom::ultmarth::ultrichter::ultsimon::ultganondorf:
MID TIER: :ultlucario::ultluigi::ultbayonetta::ultbowser::ultdk::ultcorrinf::ultrobin::ulttoonlink::ultsonic::ultwiifittrainer:(:ultsamus:/:ultdarksamus:):ultduckhunt::ultzelda::ultcloud:
LOW TIER: :ultridley::ultmetaknight::ultmewtwo::ultkingdedede::ultfalcon::ultdiddy::ultfalco::ultkrool::ultdoc::ultgnw::ulticeclimbers:(:ultpit:/:ultdarkpit:):ultsheik::ultryu::ultincineroar::ultken::ultvillager::ultisabelle::ultjigglypuff::ultrosalina::ultpiranha::ultbowserjr::ultkirby::ultlittlemac:
So..his Top Tier video is out and honestly, it's not all that surprising given what was left.
Top Tier: :ultpeach::ultdaisy::ultolimar::ultpichu::ultpikachu::ultwario::ultinkling::ultwolf::ultfox::ultpalutena::ultlucina::ultzss::ultgreninja::ultrob::ultsnake::ultshulk:

I mean, we knew it was going to happen but that's a LOT of top tier characters but that's pretty much a given since the game is still pretty new but also fairly well balanced.
 
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Omnos

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 7, 2019
Messages
72
Location
Canada
At lot of the characters he put in low tier because "lack of results or top players using x character" even though they shouldn't be there. Then he puts :ultshulk: in top tier? Who other than Nicko plays him? Has anyone played Shulk at a major? I think Shulk is a high tier character, he's scary good when used correctly, but this is just another flaw with M2K's tier list.
 
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Apr 11, 2016
Messages
1,047
I think Cloud is in the same boat as a lot of other very good characters. He just kinda gets outclassed in how hw plays, or used to play. Especially by many FE swordies.

:ultike: is the character you want to play if your gameplan is to throw nairs tbe size of a small country that can be hard to contest, and also lead to combos and kill setups. Do your laundry, pay for bills etc

:ultroy::ultchrom: Arguabally have stronger setups' and kill options thar do not requite Limit (Roy's side-b is nearly Limit CS without needing Limit) and thier recoveires are better overall than Cloud's non-limit recovery

:ultlucina: Of course, is the sword user that us all-around very well-rounded very strong, very accessible and you can do well with as long as you have good fundamentals
 
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Coccinelle

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 12, 2018
Messages
53
A couple of weeks ago I remember a developer explaining that they were analyzing the results of each characters in Elite Smash, especially the global % of wins. It is a rough estimate of a character potential, but it would be still a valuable information to know. I would be curious to know exactly what is the popularity / representation of every character and his % win. Characters representation in tournaments would be interesting to know too although these data may not be readily accessible.
One problem with tier lists in a game with so many characters is that I highly doubt that any player, whatever his skill may be, has fully explored each character.
 
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Coccinelle

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 12, 2018
Messages
53
That's scary, considering how cruddy wifi is. The info would be interesting.
Right but that kind of "low grade evidence" is not worse than personal opinion based tier lists. Both approaches have their flaws and bias but I think it would be interesting to see if they gave similar or conflicting results. At least that would give a bit of fresh air. Tier lists made by pros one after the other are boring, at one point. Of course a tier list made by a large panel of experienced players would still be more valuable than single person opinions.
 
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Hi. I'm very happy to see that a pro player has popped in to say something about the quality of the thread.

Wait, you aren't a pro player? You don't know what you are talking about? Your personal experience, by your own statement, doesn't matter? Then don't post this.

Telling people what to post isn't your job, neither is determining the quality of the thread. People enjoy posting in this thread and discussing characters, simple as that. Please refrain from making posts in the future like this one.

As arrogant and as rude as he sounded in his original post, he's absolutely right. I've been posting in this series of threads exclusively (as in, I've never posted in any other thread in smashboards, maybe with one or two rare exceptions) since I joined. Why? Because it has been historically the only high-quality thread on smashboards. This thread was not just a thread; it was a community, and that too the last community where competitive play could be discussed to the exclusion of all else, and discussed seriously, using evidence, analysis, and debate. This isn't just smashboards, this is on any smash-related forum: twitter (lol), reddit, you name it. This thread was better than all of that. If you go back to certain iterations of this thread you will find dozens upon dozens of consecutively strong, analytical posts tearing smash 4 apart, core from fluff, player from character, controller from psyche. It was great.

To me it doesn't matter what people enjoy writing, because every post has only one writer, and potentially hundreds of readers. If hundreds of readers are not enjoying your post, then you posting it just because you enjoyed writing it is at best inconsiderate and at worst selfish. Not only that, but it also drives away other high-quality posts. The really sharp minds in this thread stop posting here when there is an uptick in random garbage like tier lists, low-level experience-based conclusions, and other similar things.

As for top players, we do sometimes get Dabuz and other top players lurking this thread series. But only when there are interesting and relevant insights.

Kinds of posts that imo shouldn't be here:

- tier lists that don't offer anything unique or insightful, with no backing commentary
- videos posted without any analysis. "Here's a good video of what X can do" isn't insightful; a simple YouTube search can accomplish the same thing. Why is the video important? What are some critical moments in the video?
- matchup impressions, e.g., "Bayo loses to Falco." Why does she lose to Falco? How do their tools interact? What does disadvantage state look like for both of them? "Character X is good/bad/low tier/top tier" also falls in this bucket.
- blanket expressions like "Wolf can't kill, so he struggles in the Pichu matchup." How, specifically, can he not kill? Does b-air not work in the matchup? What about 2-framing Agility at the ledge? What are the typical angles from which Pichu will be approaching?

If ever you wished that people would go one level deeper with their thoughts, this is the thread where you can get that. Or at least, it was sometimes. People used to get infracted for even using non-tournament experience to justify a claim. That's how seriously we used to take it.

Anyway, just my opinion. Y'all are free to do what you want. When the thread gets bad I just stop reading it. I'm probably just speaking into the void here, but I thought that we were unfairly criticizing Monete for making what is in essence an accurate assessment.
 
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Foie

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 19, 2007
Messages
79
Regarding the quality of this thread, the biggest thing I find "low quality" is character mains constantly bringing up one specific character in any possible conversation. I understand it's a natural thing to do, heck I'm guilty to some extent, but we should avoid it especially when it's limited to just personal experience (usually wifi) as opposed to analyzed high level tourney play.
 
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Joined
Apr 9, 2007
Messages
1,311
Hadn't even noticed that he didn't put :ultrob: in High Tier until today. I feel like :ultrob: being a big body holds him back too much to be top tier despite his great kit, particularly against the Pika clan. Does anybody here agree with M2K's view on our robot buddy? How well does R.O.B. do against the top tiers anyway?
 
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