Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Lacrimosa]

Back in the brawl era, we tried making stages for tournament use, but the idea never really went anywhere, heh.

Now, we have so many stages that I'm not sure how useful stage builder can really be. Hopefully you can do some cool things with it, but it's generally pretty limited.

I'd like to have a stage like WarioWare but with blastzones that are farther away than on WW. Given Nintendo won't patch the blastzones for competitive use. Then we would finally have a small stage that can be counterpicked for certain characters.

 

[Hippieslayer]

The real issue with Charizard's neutral is that he lacks safe poking or pressure tools. He does have a few good tools for winning neutral but for just playing neutral he's a bit more limited, if you get what I mean. His aerials aren't really safe on shield outside of his slow and finicky Bair and his F-tilt and D-tilt are punishable and extend his hurtbox.

Comparatively, Squirtle has fantastic aerial acceleration for weaving in and out of an opponent's face, fast frame data to snuff out enemy attacks, and low lag so he doesn't have to commit as much. Ivysaur has a fantastic projectile to control the flow of the match and disjointed aerials which are very safe when spaced well.

That said, I don't think his neutral game is terrible. He's got a great ground speed for baiting, approaching or ruining an opponent's spacing, complimented by a dangerous OoS game. He's got a pretty mean punish game as well. But his neutral is just too basic and dependent on raw yomi. If you make the right play you get rewarding and you make the wrong one you get hurt - there's no move you can just safely throw out just to force a reaction.

His neutral isn't good, but I think some people do exaggerate just how "bad" it is. It has the basic things it needs to function, at least.

I think you hit the nail on the head. Fair should autocancel; 3.0 please..

What you said about him not having any Safe moves which you can just throw out hits home when I think about it. I mained him through smash 4 and I often found myself doing things such as throwing out a quick jab when the opponent wasnt in range, then immediately doing something else like a retreating bair. Or full hop into immediate airdodge into fair to get in on a Cloud. Or retreating nairs which I never intended to hit with. Basically trying to work around not having any safe move with different kinds of defensive baits combined with sudden bursts of aggression. Another favourite was multijumping with my back to the opponent in order to make it seem like I was looking for a bair only to reverse flamethrower them. The reverse flamethrower might not end up doing much in terms of stage and dmg.. but it got me an advantage yomi wise which I could capitalize on later. Same with Oos jabs. The stuff wasnt safe, but it worked a lot because it was counterintuitive enough that by the time people figured it out I could shift gears and get very agro instead and then land a kill move and game over.

Now I wasnt that Good a player, but I saw other people, who were certainly better players than me, trying to use charizard and playing him in this painfully ineffective straightforward manner and that always puzzled me. Anti's charizard was the most blatant example of this, embarassing to watch.

Where do I want to go with this... Well I think zard is underrated, especially as a part of a trio, sure a smart opponent will catch onto clever baits eventually, no one can mix things up to compensate for a lacking kit forever but... Doing that when you only get to fight him briefly shouldnt be easy even for a really good player.

Therefore, PT players need to git gud and stfu until they do. Also Zelda is trash and worse than solo zard.

 

[Kiligar]

https://youtu.be/85q3GPbGZjA
Grand Finals with Pit v Snake. The Pit player plays in a hyper aggressive style unexpected from the character, but makes it work due to a great reaction time and well timed spot dodges. It’s a little long, but I want to show that Pit has potential beyond what most people rate him to be.

 

[JustCallMeJon]

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[Hippieslayer]

https://youtu.be/85q3GPbGZjA
Grand Finals with Pit v Snake. The Pit player plays in a hyper aggressive style unexpected from the character, but makes it work due to a great reaction time and well timed spot dodges. It’s a little long, but I want to show that Pit has potential beyond what most people rate him to be.

I tried to watch for the sake of pit but the constant pummeling by the pit player gave me an aneurism that left me blind and paralyzed from the neck and down.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Honestly I get why people say M2K's tierlist is bad. Some characters he put in Low Tier because of "lack of results" yet he does the exact same thing in Mid Tier...?

I definitely think are better than the likes of and .

It's just a weird overall list...

 

[blackghost]

Honestly I get why people say M2K's tierlist is bad. Some characters he put in Low Tier because of "lack of results" yet he does the exact same thing in Mid Tier...?

I definitely think are better than the likes of and .

It's just a weird overall list...

not wierd, poor. like its inconsistent, heavily bias, and seems full of misinformation.
i only watched the section on bayonetta "bayonetta is good against big bodies." She is average aginast the rest of the cast but she can zero to death bowser for free."
Like what? first off what game are you playing bayonetta does not have free 0 to death anything. second comboing a big body has never been indicative of a good or even decent character in the history of the franchise. he did not discuss tools, moves, kit, fuctionality, or anything else.

Edit: i already saw he has the belmonts in high tier. this is just a bad tier list.

 

[SwagGuy99]

"bayonetta is good against big bodies." She is average aginast the rest of the cast but she can zero to death bowser for free."

This would be true...

if didn't live until over 200% against characters like and .

 

[Augi]

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Okay okay, I know Kirby's not great but he's not THAT bad... *shifty eyes* though no one else seems to be jumping to his defense...

He's got um.... He kinda has... Well his FEET have really.....

Alright, Kirby isn't that strong in any obvious manner but he has a lot of little advantages here and there that really help with certain matchups. Good poking tools and lots of foot intangibility.

 

[Diddy Kong]

This would be true...

if didn't live until over 200% against characters like and .

And then with the added rage, Bowser kills them at like 40% lol

 

[Rizen]

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There's much I disagree with but I'd like to focus on . He's one of my secondaries and I can't see him that high, especially above DK. As strong as Ganon seems when he makes the right reads, he gets shut down at least as hard. Unlike DK and Bowser, his mobility and recovery are complete garbage. Ganon's oddly a glass cannon because his recovery is so poor he dies at 120% from not being able to make it back to the ledge. That takes away a lot of his heavyweight perks.
I think he's very easy to play and popular yet doesn't have any results. He's lower mid tier imo.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Didn't he say this tier-list is only loosely ordered or something like that. I don't recall him saying this is completely ordered (like Zero's tierlist is ordered)?
Besides of Little Mac, he sounded like the positions are pretty much interchangeable with each other.

Ganondorf is a character many players, including Light, seem to underestimate at first. Not because he's bad but because his smashes have huge range. Other than that, Nairo is an exceptional player who may have carried the character, however Ganon is better than ever before (as if that was hard :3). But is there any prolific Ganon player outside of Nairo?

 

[Rizen]

I found YL's hitboxes. They mostly match the visuals without surprises. There are some other hitbox videos on this channel too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgNBwLvWhW8

 

[KirbySquad101]

https://youtu.be/85q3GPbGZjA
Grand Finals with Pit v Snake. The Pit player plays in a hyper aggressive style unexpected from the character, but makes it work due to a great reaction time and well timed spot dodges. It’s a little long, but I want to show that Pit has potential beyond what most people rate him to be.

To be fair, that Snake player made some pretty questionable plays, like constantly going for U-Tilt even when Pit wasn't at kill percent, and coming down with Nikita Missile (who does this?). Still, gotta give props to the Pit player; the landing lag buffs really help his combo potential and his new dash attack is godlike at keeping control of the stage from airborne opponents.

It's not just results. It's also character theory

Smash has been around for a long time and generally we know what makes a good character. Shulk checks a lot of boxes that G&W etc. do not. That doesn't necessarily mean those characters are bad, it just means we don't know until someone shows us why they're good. We can look at Zelda and say her trapping game is good and her aerials have great kill power or Pit with his great recovery and disjointed attacks, but we don't immediately know/understand how they can be used to consistently win games; I call this "glue." How do these positive traits come together to form a package that wins games? We don't know yet.

Shulk on the other hand is easily compared to good characters from past games and has a lot of clasically good traits like air speed, damage, hitboxes, low lag, combo potential, recovery, whatever. It is easy for us to look at Shulk and think "this character has a lot in common with characters that have been good in the past, and even without results, we know he's probably capable of getting somewhere." In a year, a tier list might have him lower down if he doesn't manage to hit the mark, but early tier lists by necessity have to take these kinds of character theories into account or you can't really even make a list, right?

Fortunately for you, it dosen't really matter what this list says. The tier list isn't patch notes, and the character will be the same regardless of where it appears on a tier list.

If you want to see this exact thing in action, look no further than Brawl ZSS, a character that was in like low mid tier in the first tier list and is considered top 10 at least now (top 5 by some, and generally top 5 in Japan). She was considered bad because her tools didn't align with what we consider to be traditionally good as a kit, but good players over time showed us how she could work. That's what we really mean when we say results. We mean, "show us how you make these tools form a playstyle that wins games."

That could possibly it; after all, I have seen this sort of thing happen during the beginning of Smash 4's metagame. Particularly characters who got "new toys" and look much better than their previous iterations, with the biggest culprits of this being and .

I do want to clarify that I don't mind people ranking characters low for the lack of results; that is understandable. It's just that if you are going to have that mindset when making tier lists, I think it's only fair to apply it to all characters and not just a select few for the sake of justifying your tier list.

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I would comment on 's placement, but I feel like this would just be a case of deja vu with what I said earlier about if I did.

Okay okay, I know Kirby's not great but he's not THAT bad... *shifty eyes* though no one else seems to be jumping to his defense...

He's got um.... He kinda has... Well his FEET have really.....

Alright, Kirby isn't that strong in any obvious manner but he has a lot of little advantages here and there that really help with certain matchups. Good poking tools and lots of foot intangibility.

I'll admit, does have quite a bit more than I imagined, but I still feel he's probably a bottom 10 character overall, even with Komota's 65th placement. He just seems to have a lot of the same problems carried over from (I could be wrong tho, I have stopped picking him up in this game after all), on top of also gaining some new issues, like U-Tilt not combo-ing as well, and F-Throw not working under platforms.

That said, Kirby does have have a few good things going for him; his tilts are actually obnoxious to deal with now, forward smash is once again as disgusting as its Brawl counterpart (if not close), and walls of back airs can be pretty troublesome to deal with.

Ganondorf is a character many players, including Light, seem to underestimate at first. Not because he's bad but because his smashes have huge range. Other than that, Nairo is an exceptional player who may have carried the character, however Ganon is better than ever before (as if that was hard :3). But is there any prolific Ganon player outside of Nairo?

Rickles has a got pretty decent Ganondorf, and Smokk is good with him as well. They seem to do fairly well at locals from what I can tell.

 

[Lil Puddin]

Honestly I get why people say M2K's tierlist is bad. Some characters he put in Low Tier because of "lack of results" yet he does the exact same thing in Mid Tier...?

I definitely think are better than the likes of and .

It's just a weird overall list...

Zelda is a noob stomper. So if you know her (limited) tricks and how vulnerable they make her compared to the rest of the cast... Then you can just harass her. She's essentially helpless vs lingering aerial hitboxes or anyone with more movement speed/reach than her. Which is a lot of the cast lmao. Bayonetta, Robin, and Duck Hunt also go on the noob stomper list.

Whereas Diddy, Mewtwo, GnW, and Falco have their obvious weaknesses... But are not as easily deterred if the opponent knows the MU. Though they still have their issues that can be abused, much like any mid tier type of character.

It's almost like they're (almoooost) properly balanced characters or something.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

There's much I disagree with but I'd like to focus on . He's one of my secondaries and I can't see him that high, especially above DK. As strong as Ganon seems when he makes the right reads, he gets shut down at least as hard. Unlike DK and Bowser, his mobility and recovery are complete garbage. Ganon's oddly a glass cannon because his recovery is so poor he dies at 120% from not being able to make it back to the ledge. That takes away a lot of his heavyweight perks.
I think he's very easy to play and popular yet doesn't have any results. He's lower mid tier imo.

Opinion of Gannon seems to be infulences by online play where he can seem much more intimidating and overwheling than he really is,. There is a reason why he is so commonly seen Online and popular with wifi-warriors, because he benefits off the current state of online in spades. Input delay and lag plays heavily into his strengths while making his flaws harder to exploit consistently

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Ganon has a lot of weaknesses but it's a LOT easier to trap peoples' landings and recoveries in Ultimate which can make him legitimately terrifying. I don't think the reads Ganon needs to make are anywhere near as hard as they used to be. He can genuinely cover a lot of options at once with his new smash attacks.

I think he's on the strong side of a balanced character. He does what he is supposed to do exceptionally well but his drawbacks and shortcomings are clear and exploitable. A well designed version of Ganon for sure.

The Smash community will always lowball characters with poor ground speed and air speed and no projectiles, and that's fair (after all, I made an assessment of Charizard a few pages back based on these criteria), but Ganon's ability to exploit Ultimate's defensive mechanics is legitimate and threatening. He'll have a few bad matchups because of his nature but he will always be able to end stocks early and make opponents feel robbed with smart play.

 

[Hippieslayer]

Didn't he say this tier-list is only loosely ordered or something like that. I don't recall him saying this is completely ordered (like Zero's tierlist is ordered)?
Besides of Little Mac, he sounded like the positions are pretty much interchangeable with each other.

Ganondorf is a character many players, including Light, seem to underestimate at first. Not because he's bad but because his smashes have huge range. Other than that, Nairo is an exceptional player who may have carried the character, however Ganon is better than ever before (as if that was hard :3). But is there any prolific Ganon player outside of Nairo?

I think at high level play ganons gonna end Up low mid at best. He's improved sure, but his recovery isnt. Even Nairos Ganon cant do much when he ends Up gimped multiple Times every damn game vs People that know how to fight him.

Dont think he's well balanced. Any character that free of stage is poorly balanced. Its lame to watch.

 

[Lacrimosa]

What I like to see with both Falcon and Ganon is that they get actually rewarded when they hit their opponent during their recovery. As of now they can die only because they hit the opponent. This would improve both recoveries to some degree. Their recovery would still not be the best and they don't need to be but then they aren't punished because the opponent messed up the edgeguarding.

 

[Siledh]

Ganondorf's Flame Choke has been greatly buffed by his new DSmash, which makes teching away a lot harder. If playing against a good Ganondorf, it can kill at the right percentages.

 

[blackghost]

ganon will always thrive online. combination of easily and harshly punishing bad players and even good players with online delay wil struggle to deal with him.
plus there s almost always a merit to chaarcters that can hit you 3 times and on the fourth kill you.
ganon is close to characters like abigail, umvc 3 hulk, and mvci nemesis. just scary at all times. people have called ganon scary since he came out in melee but this is the first game where that fear is something i can really see having a large impact.

 

[Kiligar]

For all the talk about Ganon and Online, I know from experience that my main has a great matchup vs Ganon. That can be said of many characters, but Pit arrows offstage are lethal vs Ganon’s unfortunate recovery, and Dark Pit Side B vs Ganon Down B is a win. Watch for yourself, this set was actually quite amusing.

 

[Minordeth]

Are you making the reads but your capitalization on those reads is lacking?

Do you thrive off of pressing advantage but are playing in an MU where your main’s offense gets limited?

Are your fundamentals fairly strong?

Do you wish to crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women?

Counterpick Ganon.

 

[Aaron1997]

Prime Saga top 64 seeding

https://smash.gg/tournament/2gg-prime-saga-1/events/ultimate-singles/standings?page=1

1. MKleo
2. Tweek
3. Light
4. Marss
5. Samsora
6. Nairo
7. Dabuz
8. VoiD
9. Zackray
10. Glutonny
11. Shuton
12. ESAM
13. Myran
14. Wadi
15. Salem
16. Mr.R
17. CaptainZack
18. Tea
19. Larry Lurr
20. Ally
21. Stroder
22. Pandarian
23. Mr.E
24. Nicko
25. Leffen
26. Imhip
27. Eon
28. CaptainL
29. T
30. Magister
31. Prodigy
32. Luis
33. Juice
34. K9sbruce
35. Klaatu
36. Trela
37. Zenyou
38. Javi
39. Legit
40. Zaki
41. BessNess
42. Razo
43. Charliedaking
44. Elegent
45. SlayerZ
46. Ultimate Razer
47. Venom
48. Daybreak
49. Chag
50. Akashic
51. YB
52. quik
53. Karna
54. Sparg0
55. Cookiesslayer
56. Shaky
57. Mr. Con Con
58. Locus
59, Mastamario
60. Megafox
61. Xzax
62. Jonny Westside
63. TLTC
64. Zael

 

[Lacrimosa]

Hasn't Leffen picked up Pichu by now? Just wondering since you didn't put the icon next to him.

 

[Rizen]

Prime Saga top 64 seeding

https://smash.gg/tournament/2gg-prime-saga-1/events/ultimate-singles/standings?page=1

1. MKleo
2. Tweek
3. Light
4. Marss
5. Samsora
6. Nairo
7. Dabuz
8. VoiD
9. Zackray
10. Glutonny
11. Shuton
12. ESAM
13. Myran
14. Wadi
15. Salem
16. Mr.R
17. CaptainZack
18. Tea
19. Larry Lurr
20. Ally
21. Stroder
22. Pandarian
23. Mr.E
24. Nicko
25. Leffen
26. Imhip
27. Eon
28. CaptainL
29. T
30. Magister
31. Prodigy
32. Luis
33. Juice
34. K9sbruce
35. Klaatu
36. Trela
37. Zenyou
38. Javi
39. Legit
40. Zaki
41. BessNess
42. Razo
43. Charliedaking
44. Elegent
45. SlayerZ
46. Ultimate Razer
47. Venom
48. Daybreak
49. Chag
50. Akashic
51. YB
52. quik
53. Karna
54. Sparg0
55. Cookiesslayer
56. Shaky
57. Mr. Con Con
58. Locus
59, Mastamario
60. Megafox
61. Xzax
62. Jonny Westside
63. TLTC
64. Zael

I hope Tweek keeps using YL. With him, T and Cookieslayer YL has decent representation. It will also be interesting to see how lower characters like Ridley stack up against fierce competition.

 

[Kiligar]

Prime Saga top 64 seeding

https://smash.gg/tournament/2gg-prime-saga-1/events/ultimate-singles/standings?page=1

1. MKleo
2. Tweek
3. Light
4. Marss
5. Samsora
6. Nairo
7. Dabuz
8. VoiD
9. Zackray
10. Glutonny
11. Shuton
12. ESAM
13. Myran
14. Wadi
15. Salem
16. Mr.R
17. CaptainZack
18. Tea
19. Larry Lurr
20. Ally
21. Stroder
22. Pandarian
23. Mr.E
24. Nicko
25. Leffen
26. Imhip
27. Eon
28. CaptainL
29. T
30. Magister
31. Prodigy
32. Luis
33. Juice
34. K9sbruce
35. Klaatu
36. Trela
37. Zenyou
38. Javi
39. Legit
40. Zaki
41. BessNess
42. Razo
43. Charliedaking
44. Elegent
45. SlayerZ
46. Ultimate Razer
47. Venom
48. Daybreak
49. Chag
50. Akashic
51. YB
52. quik
53. Karna
54. Sparg0
55. Cookiesslayer
56. Shaky
57. Mr. Con Con
58. Locus
59, Mastamario
60. Megafox
61. Xzax
62. Jonny Westside
63. TLTC
64. Zael

This tournament is a prime example of characters being underrepresented. All of about 20 characters are used in this tourney, with certain in particular being very popular, such as Snake and Palutena. Everyone is here, but not everyone is used. Some characters are amazing but under utilized, such as Greninja and Meta Knight. Others are fairly good, on the level of Mario or Link, but overlooked because their strengths aren’t as obvious. I hope patch 3.0.0 balances the game out better, as in comparison to previous entries it’s the most balanced, but it would be beautiful to see a diverse character spread since the roster is so big. Don’t compare Ultimate simply to previous entry standards, it’s Ultimate for a reason.

 

[Sean²]

Hasn't Leffen picked up Pichu by now? Just wondering since you didn't put the icon next to him.

Leffen has been in a constant character crisis since he decided PT wasn't good enough but still only pulls out Roy and PT in tournament. Honestly surprised he even still plays Ultimate.

 

[Hippieslayer]

Why does he even use Roy? His Roy sucks compared to his PT. His Chrom is better even. He should either drop both Roy and PT or learn to play Charizard so that his PT trio doesn't suffer from being 1/3 achilles heel and drop Roy. Any fool that has watched him play can see this.

 

[TimG57867]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

The possibilities with 's N-Air loops seems to grow longer and longer! Looking forward to seeing how well he can implement these in bracket.

 

[KirbySquad101]

Counting on Javi and Sparg0 to put in lots a' work with and since both characters seem to have a bit of trouble keeping up with the high/top tiers tournament results-wise.

Hoping Lui$ gets far as well, is a character I feel is kind of getting slept on, but we'll see.

Oh btw, I think Wadi and Dabuz also use as secondaries, if I'm not mistaken.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Counting on Javi and Sparg0 to put in lots a' work with and since both characters seem to have a bit of trouble keeping up with the high/top tiers tournament results-wise.

Hoping Lui$ gets far as well, is a character I feel is kind of getting slept on, but we'll see.

Oh btw, I think Wadi and Dabuz also use as secondaries, if I'm not mistaken.

I am not sure about But I think is likely hanging on at the lower-end of High-tier. His biggest issue is his non-limit recovery is likely around bottom 5 in the game. I changed my mind on that his recovery is actullay a bit worse than . Chrom has at least some kill-potential, and threatning with up-b offstage even post-nerf and it harder to contest while active.

I think if Cloud could still potentailly still be top-tier if he still could hold limit indefinetley

 

[Falco_DJ]

I've bee working on this for a while now. Here is My Super Smash Bros Ultimate Ver. 2.0 Tier list!

Spoiler: Warning! This will take up an large amount of your screen!

I have all of PT's Pokemon on the bottom in their own place, ranked from best to worst. I do not think they are the worst characters, I'm just ranking them aside from everybody else. Their ranking is represented by Pokemon Trainer. (In S Tier)

 

[Omastar]

I've bee working on this for a while now. Here is My Super Smash Bros Ultimate Ver. 2.0 Tier list!

Spoiler: Warning! This will take up an large amount of your screen!

View attachment 206963

I have all of PT's Pokemon on the bottom in their own place, ranked from best to worst. I do not think they are the worst characters, I'm just ranking them aside from everybody else. Their ranking is represented by Pokemon Trainer. (In S Tier)

This list... isn't great. Not going to go super in depth, but a lot of placements don't make any sense to me.
Ridley bottom 5, Damus/Samus that low, Pacman that low, Greninja that low, Ness that low, Mario that low, Megaman that low, and Sheik that high for starters. There are a lot more questionable placings, but im sure other people can elaborate much better that I ever could.

 

[Sean²]

Why does he even use Roy? His Roy sucks compared to his PT. His Chrom is better even. He should either drop both Roy and PT or learn to play Charizard so that his PT trio doesn't suffer from being 1/3 achilles heel and drop Roy. Any fool that has watched him play can see this.

Watch his stream sometime, anytime PT is brought up all he does is complain about Charizard. And I've seen him miss Roy's sweetspot on his fsmash so many times it hurts. Dude is obviously better than I am, but I forsee him dropping the game once his Ultimate sub train slows down.

I've bee working on this for a while now. Here is My Super Smash Bros Ultimate Ver. 2.0 Tier list!

Spoiler: Warning! This will take up an large amount of your screen!

View attachment 206963

I have all of PT's Pokemon on the bottom in their own place, ranked from best to worst. I do not think they are the worst characters, I'm just ranking them aside from everybody else. Their ranking is represented by Pokemon Trainer. (In S Tier)

Are these ordered? if so I have many disagreements. Greninja way too low, Sheik way too high. Wario too low, Belmonts and K Rool too high. Just for starters.

 

[Gazorpazorpfield]

I've bee working on this for a while now. Here is My Super Smash Bros Ultimate Ver. 2.0 Tier list!

Spoiler: Warning! This will take up an large amount of your screen!

View attachment 206963

I have all of PT's Pokemon on the bottom in their own place, ranked from best to worst. I do not think they are the worst characters, I'm just ranking them aside from everybody else. Their ranking is represented by Pokemon Trainer. (In S Tier)

Nice! Although, I think a number of these assignments are up for debate, namely Mac having his own tier. Sure, he's bad, but I wouldn't say someone like Plant is a whole tier above him.

Ridley certainly isn't good, but he's probably not bottom five. His kit has no real synergy or cohesiveness. He's effectively a bait-and-punish character who can't bait, and gets less reward from a punish than other characters. He's combo food without the survivability of a big character. But, in spite of all of this, he's got a fair neutral and good advantage state, with enough killpower to be a threat. Though on paper he doesn't do much very well, we've seen people like Trela achieve legitimate success with him, and I think his results warrant at least a C-tier placing.

Greninja, for that matter, probably shouldn't be in C-tier. He has a place in the metagame, even at the highest levels of competition; many players, especially Japanese ones, consider him to be high or even top tier.

Shiek is someone I actually agree with not being bottom tier, but she doesn't have the results to justify an A-tier placing. She's got everything a character needs to be competitive, but the lack of damage and killpower are severe. I maintain that a character with her frame data, neutral, combo game, advantage and disadvantage state cannot be low-tier, but I can't confidently call her high-tier, either.

Aside from that, some characters like IC's, Puff, Pac-Man, K. Rool or Ganon probably don't belong where they're listed. Generally, though, I don't think the game is old enough for many of these things to be set in stone, so viability can still be up in the air for a lot of fighters.

 

[Rizen]

I've bee working on this for a while now. Here is My Super Smash Bros Ultimate Ver. 2.0 Tier list!

Spoiler: Warning! This will take up an large amount of your screen!

View attachment 206963

I have all of PT's Pokemon on the bottom in their own place, ranked from best to worst. I do not think they are the worst characters, I'm just ranking them aside from everybody else. Their ranking is represented by Pokemon Trainer. (In S Tier)

There's much I disagree with but I'll stick to my expertise. should be high tier not top. The reasons are he's extremely hard to optimise, dies early and kills late. Take the Ike MU for example. Ike has any number of confirms that kill starting around 90% but he lives until at least 140%. Sometime during the period when YL's pulling elaborate combos to get that extra 50%, Ike lands a Nair>Uair and kills him. Weight and kill power matter. That's the story of most of YL's bad MUs. YL seems to have an amazing neutral but has to work 3 times harder to get a kill, the opponent reads him a little and kills YL instead. YL's balanced by poor stats, which is kind of good to be fair because he'd be insane with good kill power.

 

[Falco_DJ]

This list... isn't great. Not going to go super in depth, but a lot of placements don't make any sense to me.
Ridley bottom 5, Damus/Samus that low, Pacman that low, Greninja that low, Ness that low, Mario that low, Megaman that low, and Sheik that high for starters. There are a lot more questionable placings, but im sure other people can elaborate much better that I ever could.

Are these ordered? if so I have many disagreements. Greninja way too low, Sheik way too high. Wario too low, Belmonts and K Rool too high. Just for starters.

Pacman , Ness, Greninja, Megaman, and Ridley are all placed in the wrong positions, you're right. I have a cheap 3 dollar mouse and must have dragged them by accedent. However characters like Wario, the Belmonts, and K. Rool are where I wanted them.

Nice! Although, I think a number of these assignments are up for debate, namely Mac having his own tier. Sure, he's bad, but I wouldn't say someone like Plant is a whole tier above him.

Ridley certainly isn't good, but he's probably not bottom five. His kit has no real synergy or cohesiveness. He's effectively a bait-and-punish character who can't bait, and gets less reward from a punish than other characters. He's combo food without the survivability of a big character. But, in spite of all of this, he's got a fair neutral and good advantage state, with enough killpower to be a threat. Though on paper he doesn't do much very well, we've seen people like Trela achieve legitimate success with him, and I think his results warrant at least a C-tier placing.

Greninja, for that matter, probably shouldn't be in C-tier. He has a place in the metagame, even at the highest levels of competition; many players, especially Japanese ones, consider him to be high or even top tier.

Shiek is someone I actually agree with not being bottom tier, but she doesn't have the results to justify an A-tier placing. She's got everything a character needs to be competitive, but the lack of damage and killpower are severe. I maintain that a character with her frame data, neutral, combo game, advantage and disadvantage state cannot be low-tier, but I can't confidently call her high-tier, either.

Aside from that, some characters like IC's, Puff, Pac-Man, K. Rool or Ganon probably don't belong where they're listed. Generally, though, I don't think the game is old enough for many of these things to be set in stone, so viability can still be up in the air for a lot of fighters.

Where should I put Ridley, and Shiek?

There's much I disagree with but I'll stick to my expertise. should be high tier not top. The reasons are he's extremely hard to optimise, dies early and kills late. Take the Ike MU for example. Ike has any number of confirms that kill starting around 90% but he lives until at least 140%. Sometime during the period when YL's pulling elaborate combos to get that extra 50%, Ike lands a Nair>Uair and kills him. Weight and kill power matter. That's the story of most of YL's bad MUs. YL seems to have an amazing neutral but has to work 3 times harder to get a kill, the opponent reads him a little and kills YL instead. YL's balanced by poor stats, which is kind of good to be fair because he'd be insane with good kill power.

I thought I probably had him too high but didn't know where to put him. What would be better spot?

 

[JustCallMeJon]

Hmm, can you create and post your tier list in this forum? I saw Falco_DJ 's tier list and maybe I can try?

 

[Falco_DJ]

Hmm, can you create and post your tier list in this forum? I saw Falco_DJ 's tier list and maybe I can try?

I don't understand, do you want the website? smashtierlist.com