Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[JustCallMeJon]

Zachray won a Japanese tournament with SOLO ROB!

Weekly Smash Party #32
Bracket: https://t.co/1YMC34M9MO
指摘があったので訂正します pic.twitter.com/iMaqcZ7Ed6

— リザルト画像bot (@ssbspResults) April 8, 2019

He win tournaments with Solo Wolf, Solo PT, Solo Wario, and now Solo R.O.B. he is the most skilled here!

 

[$.A.F.]

Zachray won a Japanese tournament with SOLO ROB!

Weekly Smash Party #32
Bracket: https://t.co/1YMC34M9MO
指摘があったので訂正します pic.twitter.com/iMaqcZ7Ed6

— リザルト画像bot (@ssbspResults) April 8, 2019

He win tournaments with Solo Wolf, Solo PT, Solo Wario, and now Solo R.O.B. he is the most skilled here!

Nerf him next patch.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Zachray won a Japanese tournament with SOLO ROB!

Weekly Smash Party #32
Bracket: https://t.co/1YMC34M9MO
指摘があったので訂正します pic.twitter.com/iMaqcZ7Ed6

— リザルト画像bot (@ssbspResults) April 8, 2019

He win tournaments with Solo Wolf, Solo PT, Solo Wario, and now Solo R.O.B. he is the most skilled here!

Everything Zackray touches, he obliterates with.

I also noticed that Shuton used solo Inkling instead of Olimar for whatever reason, so that is interesting.

 

[Cheryl~]

Zachray won a Japanese tournament with SOLO ROB!

Weekly Smash Party #32
Bracket: https://t.co/1YMC34M9MO
指摘があったので訂正します pic.twitter.com/iMaqcZ7Ed6

— リザルト画像bot (@ssbspResults) April 8, 2019

He win tournaments with Solo Wolf, Solo PT, Solo Wario, and now Solo R.O.B. he is the most skilled here!

is Zackray just trying to learn every character so he can take a Japan weekly with them? If so, I'm... scared but intrigued!

 

[NotLiquid]

M2 grab is 8 frames dash grab is 10 frames confusion is 12 frames and with a jump it's 15 frames. Not really why you'd go for this when you can just throw for the kill. Most definitely useless tech.

Dash grabs are way harder to microspace with their inherited momentum, and also way easier to punish because the opponent can spot dodge them. Confusion has a larger grab hitbox, almost 30 active frames, and is able to be performed in the air. Not only can it be used as a momentum canceling tool, but if an opponent is anticipating it, you have more attacks to mixup with.

We can cease with the defeatist assumption that any newfound tech is useless and not worth exploring, especially when it hasn't been applied yet. Just because a move is "slower" doesn't mean it's an inherently worse option. It is, in the end, another option, and options are good.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Dash grabs are way harder to microspace with their inherited momentum, and also way easier to punish because the opponent can spot dodge them. Confusion has a larger grab hitbox, almost 30 active frames, and is able to be performed in the air. Not only can it be used as a momentum canceling tool, but if an opponent is anticipating it, you have more attacks to mixup with.

We can cease with the defeatist assumption that any newfound tech is useless and not worth exploring, especially when it hasn't been applied yet. Just because a move is "slower" doesn't mean it's an inherently worse option. It is, in the end, another option, and options are good.

Listen and pay attention because I'm educating you. Another grab option isn't going to matter when m2 is already going to kill you. The fact that he doesn't keep momentum isn't a good thing it's a bad thing. It takes away from the move utility and gives you less options to try and make use of this tech.

Tldr it doesn't matter if you have 500 mediocre options.

 

[NotLiquid]

Listen and pay attention because I'm educating you.

Educate better, then, rather than doubling down with the idea that every option is binary and pretending like you know it all.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Listen and pay attention because I'm educating you. Another grab option isn't going to matter when m2 is already going to kill you. The fact that he doesn't keep momentum isn't a good thing it's a bad thing. It takes away from the move utility and gives you less options to try and make use of this tech.

Tldr it doesn't matter if you have 500 mediocre options.

This option probably isn't going to make M2 shoot up in the tiers but it's still but to have 6 "mediocre options" then 5. There's still practical uses for this tech. Gimr already went into set ups in his video, and there's still other times it could be useful such as when an opponent is shielding on a platform.

Listen and pay attention because I'm educating you.

...Anyway, this attitude you have is counterproductive to discussion. If you have an opinion on a topic then go ahead and state it but don't act like you know this game so better then everybody else.

 

[Rocketjay8]

Listen and pay attention because I'm educating you.

This attitude right here is one of the many reasons why the smash community has a bad reputation.

 

[Rizen]

Zachray won a Japanese tournament with SOLO ROB!

Weekly Smash Party #32
Bracket: https://t.co/1YMC34M9MO
指摘があったので訂正します pic.twitter.com/iMaqcZ7Ed6

— リザルト画像bot (@ssbspResults) April 8, 2019

He win tournaments with Solo Wolf, Solo PT, Solo Wario, and now Solo R.O.B. he is the most skilled here!

Meh, 32 entrants. Although it was fairly stacked.

 

[Game7a1]

Another grab option isn't going to matter when m2 is already going to kill you.

So I went ahead into training mode, tested on a Mario on PS2, T&C, and Battlefield, and compared Up-Throw to Confusion -> F-air. My numbers could be off by a little, but I don't think this changes the conclusion all that much.
At 150%, Up-Throw will KO Mario with no DI. On T&C, about 147%. Didn't bother testing on PS2 because at that point, it doesn't really matter. What does matter, however, is that around 140% (where Mewtwo gets a 6-frame advantage), Confusion -> Fair will KO Mario across the stage from one side to the other, KO'ing off the top (meaning stage position isn't a significant factor, but it can be something to consider).
So if Mewtwo isn't going to KO the opponent, the Confusion -> F-air combo can work. And honestly, it seems to be most useful against heavier characters and on stages with high ceiling blastzones. And by the time he can with Up-Throw, the heavy opponent is probably at a very high percent anyways. It's still an option to consider and not something to be ignored.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Ok. What is the big deal about Zackray winning with R.O.B all of a sudden. Is it THAT big of a surpise R.O.B won something. R.O.B is a pretty good character that has had a solid tourament prescence.
Its not like Zackray just won Prime Saga with destroying everyone with solo Bowser Jr, Kirby or Little Mac..

 

[NotLiquid]

Ok. What is the big deal about Zackray winning with R.O.B all of a sudden. Is it THAT big of a surpise R.O.B won something. R.O.B is a pretty good character that has had a pretty good tourament prescence.
Its not like Zackray mopped up a supermajor with or anything

I'm not really as surprised about Zackray winning with ROB as I am surprised with Zackray's character pool growing so wide. He rocked Pokémon Trainer last week, and that weekly had Abadango, KEN, and Kameme in attendance. I wonder whether he's just preparing for a potential Wolf nerf, but he's quickly shown Tweek / MKLeo levels of character adaptation.

 

[Sean²]

Ok. What is the big deal about Zackray winning with R.O.B all of a sudden. Is it THAT big of a surpise R.O.B won something. R.O.B is a pretty good character that has had a solid tourament prescence.
Its not like Zackray just won Prime Saga with destroying everyone with solo Bowser Jr, Kirby or Little Mac..

Pretty sure those tournaments are glorified friendlies for these guys. Zackray also won using solo PT at the last one.

 

[Scarlet Spyder]

Speaking of Superheavies and their viability, I seriously recommend that anyone who who doubts Charizard's usefulness to PT's team, or just wants to watch a good set in general, watches Wishes's set against Light. Charizard put in some serious work.
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/407043022?t=07h49m01s

Anyway here's the stuff I got out of this match up.

can wrack up damage extremely well, and getting those combos started isn't too tricky either. Squirtle's neutral is probably the strongest of the team's in this match up, as he's too good at zonebreaking to reliably keep out with Ivy. It is worth noting that Squirtle's even with Squirtle's small hurtbox and good aerial acceleration he still struggled in disadvantage, especially since Fox has the speed to punish Withdraw as long as Light was prepared.

can't zone or land that well in the Fox match up, but Wishes did show that Ivysaur still has her uses. Fox is at his most vulnerable when he's offstage or at the corner, which is where you could see Wishes switch to Ivysaur the most. Even if she was least important Pokemon in this set Ivysaur definitely still carried her weight on the team. But now let's talk the character I'm most excited to bring up.

showed exactly how powerful he can be at the ledge or in advantage. Even a fast faller like Fox struggled to land against Charizard's amazing ground pressure and OoS. Zard's fantastic out of shield game came into play here, not just because of his lightning-fast Up Smash but because of how rewarding his throws are. Wishes also showed constantly just how dangerous Charizard's Bair is in every game state but especially in advantage, killing Fox at an impressively low 65% by calling out a high recovery and later at 72%. It's also worth noting that Wishes would sometimes switch to Charizard while he was cornered as Ivysaur in this match up.

And yet despite all Charizard did in this set there was not a single Flare Blitz kill. This match really affirmed to me that Charizard who is amazing at carrying momentum or making comebacks, and isn't just some silly Flare Blitz bot like so many people think he is.

Anyway, I still think Fox is a losing match up for PT overall but if this set shows anything it's far from undoable as long as you know understand the value of corner pressure.

I just watched the set and I agree with you about Charizard. The commentators mention it later on when Wishes is playing against Nairo but the utility of Charizard is vastly underrated. Sealing stocks may be his job but he does it well. And not to mention the recovery mix-ups that greatly help Ivysaur's exploitable recovery. I think the match-up is even to losing but yeah Squirtle and Charizard were definitely the MVPs in that particular set. You'll notice that he switches to Ivysaur around 70-80% and isn't able to do much except get beat around. Fox is just way too fast. But when Fox is off-stage, Ivysaur can shine a bit more.

One thing that disappointed me about Wishes gameplay was the overusage of Flare Blitz. He won 2 important games vs Leon's Bowser using the move and probably felt good about it. However, he was on the brink of pushing Nairo's Palutena to a game 5 but one silly Flare Blitz cost him the match (he got spiked by Palutena after it failed...).

I don't think the Bowser match-up should've gone to game 5 and I feel like Pandarian's Ivysaur-heavy PT would have handled that match-up with ease. All in all, it's been a great couple weeks for PT mains, seeing some top-level play from Pandarian, Wishes, and Zackray (my personal favorite). I expect Wishes and Pandarian to continue the trend of improving on their placings as PT matchups become more optimized.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

It has nothing to do with the smash community nor does it have anything to do with me being so much in the know than someone else. It's kinda obvious that any confusion kill set ups are going to be mediocre because of how bad the move is. No need to talk up some mediocre tech. You guys can wax poetic over every new tech that comes out. I'm not interested in that though.

 

[MG_3989]

Meh, 32 entrants. Although it was fairly stacked.

I mean Gackt and Abadango were there but I don't think it's a huge deal. R.O.B is a good character and it just shows how much good fundamentals carry over to almost every character in this game

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Ok the morw I see gameplay PT. The more I think all the qualites thar would make a character very strong and potentially top tier in a smash game. Only split between 3 characters.

• Great Mobilty and Frame Data
• Great low % Combo potential

• Big Disjointed hitboxes
• Strong Neutral and Advantage State
• Good Projectile

• Clutch factor to steal stocks in opportune situations
• Good Recovery

All 3 members of PT are truly meant to be played as a team and to use each others strengths to win. Anyone who tired to tier them as solo characters is missing the point. They are one character sharing 3 different forms

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

All 3 members of PT are truly meant to be played as a team and to use each others strengths to win. Anyone who tired to tier them as solo characters is missing the point. They are one character sharing 3 different forms

I agree here, but remember that from moment to moment, you will be using one of these characters against another character. Their individual strength does matter to the degree that this point matters.

I think Squirtle is a great character and an important part of the team. Ivysaur is obviously anchoring PT, but Squirtle really does provide an important utility and is at least a decent character on his own. I play a lot of Ness, and if you told me that my neutral B would let me switch into Squirtle form I'd be very happy to hear that. For Squirtle, I think his utility on the team is more important than the fact that he's less impressive than similar characters in his archetype.

For Charizard, I'm not so sure. He's part of a team, certainly, but he still needs to be able to do his job, and I think he struggles a bit to do it. His clutch isn't reliable enough at good levels of play to make up for his neutral, and he lacks the important tools that other heavies have that make them work (Bowser's armor, DK's insane hitboxes, etc). It's not enough to be heavy and have Flare Blitz and hard-hitting moves, you have to be able to play neutral to some degree.

It might still be worth switching to Zard to hold on to stocks when you're in the lead, but I'm not totally convinced he will be able to hold stocks better than Squirtle who has insane air speed and can zone around opponents really easily, or Ivysaur who kills at like 65% or whatever (as people improve especially).

 

[MG_3989]

I think Squirtle is really underrated and his combo and damage racking game is up there with anyone in the game. Yeah he can't kill but he doesn't need to with Ivysaur and Charizard. He's so good at getting a quick 60-70% damage in and then he synergizes great with Ivy when you switch in for the confirm. Charizard has his uses, he can edgeguard and he has a good OoS game. Also Charizard is a great damage sponge and adds a lot to the survivability of PT while he tacks on some extra damage or maybe even pulls out a kill. PT seems much better than I initially thought

They all have their weaknesses and I don't think any of them would function amazingly on their own. Ivysaur would probably be high mid but she's also combo food with a bad disadvantage and she doesn't rack up damage the way Squirtle does. However now the way I'm seeing them synergize I think PT has a good future

 

[blackghost]

I agree here, but remember that from moment to moment, you will be using one of these characters against another character. Their individual strength does matter to the degree that this point matters.

I think Squirtle is a great character and an important part of the team. Ivysaur is obviously anchoring PT, but Squirtle really does provide an important utility and is at least a decent character on his own. I play a lot of Ness, and if you told me that my neutral B would let me switch into Squirtle form I'd be very happy to hear that. For Squirtle, I think his utility on the team is more important than the fact that he's less impressive than similar characters in his archetype.

For Charizard, I'm not so sure. He's part of a team, certainly, but he still needs to be able to do his job, and I think he struggles a bit to do it. His clutch isn't reliable enough at good levels of play to make up for his neutral, and he lacks the important tools that other heavies have that make them work (Bowser's armor, DK's insane hitboxes, etc). It's not enough to be heavy and have Flare Blitz and hard-hitting moves, you have to be able to play neutral to some degree.

It might still be worth switching to Zard to hold on to stocks when you're in the lead, but I'm not totally convinced he will be able to hold stocks better than Squirtle who has insane air speed and can zone around opponents really easily, or Ivysaur who kills at like 65% or whatever (as people improve especially).

pokemon trainer is a fighting game version of a typical group project in school: two members heavily contribute and carry the load and one guy is just along for the ride.

 

[meleebrawler]

pokemon trainer is a fighting game version of a typical group project in school: two members heavily contribute and carry the load and one guy is just along for the ride.

How does that explain the two getting a better grade than they would without him? It's more like one guy who may not be as smart or talented as his teammates and most likely wouldn't know what to do on his own, but is nevertheless committed to helping them.

 

[Hippieslayer]

Why is charizards neutral bad? He has decent options in neutral imo. Flamethrower is strong, his oos game isnt rly bad, he can bait with bair, spaced F-tilt is Good, he has a plethora of anti air options, has somewhat of a burst option with dash attack, can jump without fully commiting cuz multihops. Imo hes pretty good att stuffing people who try to rush him in neutral, and he can contend with more spacing oriented approaches as well because of bair and flamethrower, fair Will also trade favourably with spacing moves most of the time. Characters with oppressive projectile-based neutrals who dont mind camping tho...

One thing I like about zard is that he's easy as hell execution wise, whilst not overly reliant on any specific move. Mening you gotta focus wholly on reading and selecting the right option to counter stuff.

Bloody miss rock smash though. Its one of those moves thats so heavily punishable you dont get to use it much but at the same time it was a trump card that you could hold onto and then throw out att just the right time.

Also did massive shield damage and regular damage while killing while also having weaker but lingering hitboxes. I rly dislike how they let him Keep flare blitz instead, stupid wifi move which was only kept because its flashy, it arguably makes him a worse character because people keep dying because they get trigger happy with it. Its self damaging properties are uncalled for as hell.

They couldve at least given him that custom version of it wherein it was actually useful. Or well it is useful cuz of horizontal recovery. Still think he'd have benefited more from rock smash because it gives him additional options in areas where he struggles.

Flashy useless moves are a weakness in the smash games in general. Especially for heavy and superheavy characters. Ganon having both utilt and wizard punch after so many games is an affront to all that is good in this world. So many other moves to mind. Jet Hammer, Ridley Down-B etc. Bad game design. There are better ways to achieve flashiness.

 

[JustCallMeJon]

Mew2King creates a tier list for Low and Mid tiers right now! Check out the current tier list from M2K!
TOP TIER:
HIGH TIER:
MID TIER: (/)
LOW TIER: (/)

What is the most suprising? How do you feel about his current tier list so far?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Mew2King creates a tier list for Low and Mid tiers right now! Check out the current tier list from M2K!
TOP TIER:
HIGH TIER:
MID TIER: (/)
LOW TIER: (/)

This list is wacky. Low tier isn't that big, is it?

Also, putting very similar characters one or two tiers below their better version is a thing people are doing that I don't understand. How much worse than Young Link can Toon Link realistically be? There are lists with Marth in like top 20 with Lucina sitting in top 5. They aren't really that different, there's no way Lucina is that much stronger.

 

[Phoenix_is_OK]

Mew2King creates a tier list for Low and Mid tiers right now! Check out the current tier list from M2K!
TOP TIER:
HIGH TIER:
MID TIER: (/)
LOW TIER: (/)

What is the most suprising? How do you feel about his current tier list so far?

I genuinely think this is a terrible list imo. It has several generic characters for low and high and then it just goes off the deep end at times. I truly think this is absolutely terrible.

To put characters like Ken, Mewtwo, GnW, and Falcon in the same tier as Little Mac and Plant feels poorly thought out.

Cloud at the bottom of Mid Tier genuinely upsets me. Bayonetta being worse than half the characters in low but putting her at the top of mid.

IDK this just feels... Poor

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Why is charizards neutral bad? He has decent options in neutral imo. Flamethrower is strong, his oos game isnt rly bad, he can bait with bair, spaced F-tilt is Good, he has a plethora of anti air options, has somewhat of a burst option with dash attack, can jump without fully commiting cuz multihops. Imo hes pretty good att stuffing people who try to rush him in neutral, and he can contend with more spacing oriented approaches as well because of bair and flamethrower, fair Will also trade favourably with spacing moves most of the time. Characters with oppressive projectile-based neutrals who dont mind camping tho..

I can't really argue with the points you've made in this paragraph, as they are all true, but what I will say is that the last sentence is a really big deal for him right now. The best characters in 2.0+ are all characters with incredible air or ground speed (or both). It is very easy to avoid being where Charizard wants you to be, most good characters can (literally!) run circles around him

It's very similar to the Brawl Ganondorf problem where a few good reads could make a difference if your opponent wasn't likely to be literally floating just outside of your zone where you can't reach them most of the time

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

This list is wacky. Low tier isn't that big, is it?

Also, putting very similar characters one or two tiers below their better version is a thing people are doing that I don't understand. How much worse than Young Link can Toon Link realistically be? There are lists with Marth in like top 20 with Lucina sitting in top 5. They aren't really that different, there's no way Lucina is that much stronger.

I feel like there's pretty drastic differences between ylink and Tlink. The biggest being the nair bair and fair. The dtilt are different as well and then arrows and up B. While ylink list a high pressure big combo character the same cannot be said about ylink. So the shift in tlink design that makes him unique makes him the worst of the 3 links. He most definitely got the short end of the stick.

 

[Heracr055]

This list is wacky. Low tier isn't that big, is it?

Also, putting very similar characters one or two tiers below their better version is a thing people are doing that I don't understand. How much worse than Young Link can Toon Link realistically be? There are lists with Marth in like top 20 with Lucina sitting in top 5. They aren't really that different, there's no way Lucina is that much stronger.

Aside from a few things AlmostLegendary said above, there are 2 significant factors separating Young Link and Toon Link: their fall speed and how their projectiles chain into their combo game. Young Link's fast fall speed make him a master of maneuvering swiftly through the air while not putting himself at much risk by being in the air for so long (harder to juggle and predict for instance). Toon Link is floaty which makes him easier to juggle and makes him just overall more susceptible in the air. Young Link's fire arrows are fantastic for creating follow ups at pretty much any percentage and can even set up kill confirms. Toon Link's arrows, on the other hand, cannot (he can get some bomb confirms but they are not as good). Thus, these 2 significant differences can create a big gap between where these 2 fibd thenselves in the tier list.

Also unrelated side note: You've been a great addition to the thread & I hope to see more posts from you in the future. Keep it up!

 

[Omnos]

That's the worst tier list released yet lol. Looks like he just threw all the characters he knows little or nothing about into low and mid tiers lmao.

 

[Rizen]

Design-wise YL is the better character. He has Link's amazing landing game while being a zoner who can actually zone. But TL has better stats: better run and air speed, he's heavier and kills earlier. This has always held YL back he's a great character balanced by being lightweight with poor kill power. TL's curved slashes have better hitboxes than YL's attacks which poke strait out or curve along the Z axis (Fair). So the difference isn't as big as it seems. I have them both in high tier.

Mew2King creates a tier list for Low and Mid tiers right now! Check out the current tier list from M2K!
TOP TIER:
HIGH TIER:
MID TIER: (/)
LOW TIER: (/)

What is the most suprising? How do you feel about his current tier list so far?

That's a generous low tier; even bigger than mid tier. I'd make it the other way around with a bigger mid tier.

 

[SwagGuy99]

Mew2King creates a tier list for Low and Mid tiers right now! Check out the current tier list from M2K!
TOP TIER:
HIGH TIER:
MID TIER: (/)
LOW TIER: (/)

What is the most suprising? How do you feel about his current tier list so far?

I'm sorry but I can't agree with a lot of this. is not better than either or and they are both probably high tier or high mid tier.
Also, Low Tier shouldn't be that big. I also see no reason for a lot of the low tier characters to be where they are as I think that most of them at least have enough merit to be mid tier with the ones that stick out the most being and .

is too slow and their projectile game is too ineffective for them to be this high. Why they aren't in low tier with all of the other characters is strange to me.

Several characters who are in mid tier also should probably be higher with the ones that I would argue for being and most especially, .

Speaking of , how on earth does he end up in the same tier as characters like and ? He's essentially Ike but with a worse recovery, limit, and faster movement speed and frame data. I really don't understand this reasoning at all.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Most surprising one is probably Zelda. Looking at the comments of the mid-tier video and you'll notice that most persons don't really agree with her placement.
For me, I tend to agree with M2K on her placement. She has stuff she lacks but let's be real: Every character has that. It just seems people want to point out her weaknesses more than any other character except maybe Little Mac. This probably comes from a lot of prejudice against that character. Armada's tierlist is also going that way of the "Always was a bad character, always will be a bad character"-mentality. Like Robin, being slow isn't the necessity to make you low-tier.

Anyway, this game is still very, very young and M2K is probably very cautious of that tier-list. If you pay attention to what he says then he doesn't really something about those characters and that's absolutely fine if he says so. The tier-lists will become more segmented the older the game gets.

 

[Scarlet Spyder]

Why is charizards neutral bad? He has decent options in neutral imo. Flamethrower is strong, his oos game isnt rly bad, he can bait with bair, spaced F-tilt is Good, he has a plethora of anti air options, has somewhat of a burst option with dash attack, can jump without fully commiting cuz multihops. Imo hes pretty good att stuffing people who try to rush him in neutral, and he can contend with more spacing oriented approaches as well because of bair and flamethrower, fair Will also trade favourably with spacing moves most of the time. Characters with oppressive projectile-based neutrals who dont mind camping tho...

One thing I like about zard is that he's easy as hell execution wise, whilst not overly reliant on any specific move. Mening you gotta focus wholly on reading and selecting the right option to counter stuff.

Bloody miss rock smash though. Its one of those moves thats so heavily punishable you dont get to use it much but at the same time it was a trump card that you could hold onto and then throw out att just the right time.

Also did massive shield damage and regular damage while killing while also having weaker but lingering hitboxes. I rly dislike how they let him Keep flare blitz instead, stupid wifi move which was only kept because its flashy, it arguably makes him a worse character because people keep dying because they get trigger happy with it. Its self damaging properties are uncalled for as hell.

They couldve at least given him that custom version of it wherein it was actually useful. Or well it is useful cuz of horizontal recovery. Still think he'd have benefited more from rock smash because it gives him additional options in areas where he struggles.

Flashy useless moves are a weakness in the smash games in general. Especially for heavy and superheavy characters. Ganon having both utilt and wizard punch after so many games is an affront to all that is good in this world. So many other moves to mind. Jet Hammer, Ridley Down-B etc. Bad game design. There are better ways to achieve flashiness.

I think Charizard's neutral is bad for a few reasons. He doesn't have good options for approaching. His neutral game is very heavy on baiting and punishing or basically reacting (OOS options are top tier though). Most of his moves aren't really "safe" either and require tons of commitment, at least compared to the tools that other characters have. Although yes Flamethrower, Bair, and Ftilt are good, other characters have "great" options compared to that which are less committal and generally faster. The multiple jumps are probably his best tool in Neutral, in my opinion. But like most heavies, you don't need to win as many interactions. Once Charizard is in advantage, he can be quite oppressive.

I think Flare Blitz is a fine move. It's a high risk, high reward type move. Definitely a "trump card" move that should be used sparingly. Speaking of which, Uthrow --> Flare Blitz is some cheese that might actually work on unsuspecting opponents.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

I said this before. But Cloud is difficult to actullay place on a tier list and get a handle on how good he is becuase well. We never really see him competive play much at all anymore.
Think. Can you name even one the many notable competive players who mained , or at least regularly Cloud in SSB4 that still use him in Ultimate. Its kind of amazing that he was completely abandoned this game. At least previous Bayo users at least TRIED to make her work this game. Cloud did not get nerfed nearly as bad but everyone was
Well Cloud, nerfed Limit and nair? Well it was fun while it lasted, later SOILDER boy

 

[The_Bookworm]

I think Charizard's neutral is bad for a few reasons. He doesn't have good options for approaching. His neutral game is very heavy on baiting and punishing or basically reacting (OOS options are top tier though). Most of his moves aren't really "safe" either and require tons of commitment, at least compared to the tools that other characters have. Although yes Flamethrower, Bair, and Ftilt are good, other characters have "great" options compared to that which are less committal and generally faster. The multiple jumps are probably his best tool in Neutral, in my opinion. But like most heavies, you don't need to win as many interactions. Once Charizard is in advantage, he can be quite oppressive.

I think Flare Blitz is a fine move. It's a high risk, high reward type move. Definitely a "trump card" move that should be used sparingly. Speaking of which, Uthrow --> Flare Blitz is some cheese that might actually work on unsuspecting opponents.

I think you meant back throw into Flare Blitz.

Speaking TLink, he appears to kind of similar to SSB4 TLink in terms of results: he is pretty region heavy overall. The best TLink players are over in Japan and Mexico, and are doing very well overall there. However, until one of them travels here for a big event (Mexico seems unlikely because Hyuga reasons), it is going to be hard to see solid TLink footage at the big stage.

 

[Minordeth]

Tier list is sus as hell.

Toon Link is not that far away from YL. He’s underrepresented, but Ultimate was generally kind to him; he hits and traps hard, and has a nasty combo game.

Rizen - iirc, you said TL outcamps YL and can generally kills more easily? The few times I’ve played a decent TL, I’ve found it more nerve wracking than playing YL. I usually chalk it up to MU inexperience, but his aerials are strong af, and if he stays relatively grounded and reads a jump, it turns into a quick stock.

This is as Falco, FYI.

Speaking of which, Falco in low tier is silly. Ridley in low tier is sus, too.

JustCallMeJon - instead of posting someone else’s thoughts and dipping, what do you think about M2K’s take?

 

[Illusion.]

Ziodyne 21
Cheeks is a DFW that's still placing extremely well in his region.
Sparg0 is another player that is still managing to hold onto his #1 spot in his region of Tijuana.

 

[$.A.F.]

Most surprising one is probably Zelda. Looking at the comments of the mid-tier video and you'll notice that most persons don't really agree with her placement.
For me, I tend to agree with M2K on her placement. She has stuff she lacks but let's be real: Every character has that. It just seems people want to point out her weaknesses more than any other character except maybe Little Mac. This probably comes from a lot of prejudice against that character. Armada's tierlist is also going that way of the "Always was a bad character, always will be a bad character"-mentality. Like Robin, being slow isn't the necessity to make you low-tier.

Anyway, this game is still very, very young and M2K is probably very cautious of that tier-list. If you pay attention to what he says then he doesn't really something about those characters and that's absolutely fine if he says so. The tier-lists will become more segmented the older the game gets.

Great. But she’s not doing anything in practice, she’s bad even in theory, she’s only good on WiFi, She has no results, she’s above characters ridiculously better than her (D3, Cloud, MK, etc.), and her strengths, are inferior to a good part of “low tier”. Bias has no part in this. Everybody said Zelda was high or even top tier up until the game came out. Another perpetual low tier from the same series in Ganondorf is considered much better after his buffs. So is Pichu who was bottom 10 in Melee. Being bad isn’t a reason people don’t think you’re good. Her zoning is okay, she’s slow, she has a lot of inconsistency with hitboxes, she has no neutral past zoning, no results, etc. I really doubt it’s popularity if Mega Man is considered high tier. Also the she has bad stuff but so does everyone could be applied to her good stuff as well though. I mean Mac has a great ground game right? Top 20, free. Your character bias is showing.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Great. But she’s not doing anything in practice, she’s bad even in theory, she’s only good on WiFi, She has no results, she’s above characters ridiculously better than her (D3, Cloud, MK, etc.), and her strengths, are inferior to a good part of “low tier”. Bias has no part in this. Everybody said Zelda was high or even top tier up until the game came out. Another perpetual low tier from the same series in Ganondorf is considered much better after his buffs. So is Pichu who was bottom 10 in Melee. Being bad isn’t a reason people don’t think you’re good. Her zoning is okay, she’s slow, she has a lot of inconsistency with hitboxes, she has no neutral past zoning, no results, etc. I really doubt it’s popularity if Mega Man is considered high tier. Also the she has bad stuff but so does everyone could be applied to her good stuff as well though. I mean Mac has a great ground game right? Top 20, free. Your character bias is showing.

I don't know if I'd call it bias if I agree with M2K that she's probably mid-tier just like Robin. People are considering that both have the same weaknesses (being slow and being bad against rush-down characters) and they can be exploited, sure.
However I think her strengths (good OoS options, pretty much no edgeguards possible against her, good grab follow-ups at low percent although her grab is awful, phantom is actually a move in this game, can edgeguard very good) are vastly overlooked and that her weaknesses are more in the spotlight. I don't know, maybe it's true but you can't say she's definitely a low-tier just now, especially when she made it to Top 24 (or w/e it was) on Genesis 6.
I'd say people are really at jumping at her and call her low-tier.