Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[bc1910]

Not sure how to close this, really, but I do want to reaffirm that I don't think Gunner is bad. In fact, Gunner is pretty solid even. We have tons of ludicrous options, strong confirms, great projectiles, versatility, etc. Don't sleep on a Gunner if you run into one, because MU inexperience is legitimately a huge boon for us.

I'd go one step further and say Gunner is pretty darn good.

Specifically the 3332 set (grenade, Samus missile, angle-able rocket launch, bomb drop) has great potential and is pretty unique in how it operates. Most Gunner players seem to use the Samus Charge Shot custom, but I feel like you should just use Samus if you want to use that custom since her Charge Shot is better and her kit complements it better. Flame Pillar is also popular, but again, this just seems like a worse Arcfire/PK Fire (it has a TON of lag). With the 3332 set, Gunner has a unique projectile in the grenade launcher and exerts a huge amount of stage control with it, complemented by the bombs and missiles.

Gunner has clear weaknesses as a projectile specialist. He's slow, has a very poor disadvantage state, below average CQC and a fairly poor recovery. This leaves him particularly weak to characters who can get through his wall of projectiles and keep him in disadvantage for most of the match. Unfortunately this includes a lot of speedy top tiers like Pichu, Pikachu, Greninja and Inkling. Gunner particularly hates fast characters with good reflectors since they force him to use his projectiles more sparingly, meaning the Fox and Wolf MUs are not pretty. The custom 1 reflector can come in handy in these matchups, but bombs are still quite nice to ensure you don't get absolutely mauled up close.

If you can't abuse Gunner's weaknesses though, you're in for a hell of a ride. You're almost certainly not gonna outzone him and weaving through his projectiles to get 1 or 2 hits won't be enough to win the war of attrition unless you hit as hard as, like, Ganon, and most characters who hit that hard are almost never getting through the wall. The above set is hugely oppressive and works particularly well against opposing zoners and characters with poor mobility.

As far as normals go, Gunner's Uair is ridiculous (probably better than Palu's in a vacuum, be thankful it's on a character with ****ty mobility) and his other aerials do their jobs pretty well, especially Nair as a surprisingly effective get-off-me tool. All his tilts are good, particularly the Snake-esque Utilt, and dash attack is actually pretty nuts as a midrange option; it kills at reasonable percents and combos easily from his projectiles at lower percents. Gunner's ledgetrapping (for which he also uses his specials) is pure nonsense as well, grenades can cover every option while bombs prevent a neutral getup and Fsmash can hard punish any option without the need for strict timing.

Gunner probably loses to too many top tiers to be a meta pick but I can see him having serious value as a counterpick. I'm actually looking into him as a potential Snake counterpick now (if anyone has any thoughts on how the MU goes please let me know). I've been very impressed with him overall.

 

[Djmarcus44]

I'd go one step further and say Gunner is pretty darn good.

Specifically the 3332 set (grenade, Samus missile, angle-able rocket launch, bomb drop) has great potential and is pretty unique in how it operates. Most Gunner players seem to use the Samus Charge Shot custom, but I feel like you should just use Samus if you want to use that custom since her Charge Shot is better and her kit complements it better. Flame Pillar is also popular, but again, this just seems like a worse Arcfire/PK Fire (it has a TON of lag). With the 3332 set, Gunner has a unique projectile in the grenade launcher and exerts a huge amount of stage control with it, complemented by the bombs and missiles.

Gunner has clear weaknesses as a projectile specialist. He's slow, has a very poor disadvantage state, below average CQC and a fairly poor recovery. This leaves him particularly weak to characters who can get through his wall of projectiles and keep him in disadvantage for most of the match. Unfortunately this includes a lot of speedy top tiers like Pichu, Pikachu, Greninja and Inkling. Gunner particularly hates fast characters with good reflectors since they force him to use his projectiles more sparingly, meaning the Fox and Wolf MUs are not pretty. The custom 1 reflector can come in handy in these matchups, but bombs are still quite nice to ensure you don't get absolutely mauled up close.

If you can't abuse Gunner's weaknesses though, you're in for a hell of a ride. You're almost certainly not gonna outzone him and weaving through his projectiles to get 1 or 2 hits won't be enough to win the war of attrition unless you hit as hard as, like, Ganon, and most characters who hit that hard are almost never getting through the wall. The above set is hugely oppressive and works particularly well against opposing zoners and characters with poor mobility.

As far as normals go, Gunner's Uair is ridiculous (probably better than Palu's in a vacuum, be thankful it's on a character with ****ty mobility) and his other aerials do their jobs pretty well, especially Nair as a surprisingly effective get-off-me tool. All his tilts are good, particularly the Snake-esque Utilt, and dash attack is actually pretty nuts as a midrange option; it kills at reasonable percents and combos easily from his projectiles at lower percents. Gunner's ledgetrapping (for which he also uses his specials) is pure nonsense as well, grenades can cover every option while bombs prevent a neutral getup and Fsmash can hard punish any option without the need for strict timing.

Gunner probably loses to too many top tiers to be a meta pick but I can see him having serious value as a counterpick. I'm actually looking into him as a potential Snake counterpick now (if anyone has any thoughts on how the MU goes please let me know). I've been very impressed with him overall.

The Gunner-Snake matchup depends considerably on the moveset. I feel that Gunner wins with the absorber. Snake is not that hard to zone out especially if Gunner can absorb grenades. Gunner also edgeguards Snake pretty easily since most of Gunner's moves beat Snake's up b armor. The matchup seems pretty even without the absorber. Nikita becomes a much bigger edgeguarding threat, and Gunner has to be more careful about throwing out projectiles. I can go into more detail later.

I also disagree with some of your Gunner analysis even though I agree that Gunner is a pretty good character.

1. Most Gunner players think that charge blast is the best option because it gives Gunner more kill power, kill confirms and movement due to charge canceling and b reversing. I will admit that Samus's charge shot fits her neutral a little bit better, since she can use the smaller shots to combo. On the other hand, Gunner's charge blast seems to work a little bit better in advantage since Gunner has better neutral tools to keep the move fresh. Gunner's shorter height means that charge blast can hit most characters while they are hanging on the ledge.

2. Gunner's disadvantage state is not bad. Gunner's recovery is decent since arm rocket can be angled to reach the ledge. In addition, Gunner can gundash to the stage with fair as a mix up. Gunner's bomb drop is decent for landing since it can be detonated by pressing down b again. Gundashing also helps with landing. While Gunner doesn't have great hitboxes directly underneath him/her, nair hits below Gunner decently fast while dair lasts for a few frames longer so it can be occasionally used to outrange weaker anti-air options. While Gunner can sometimes get put in disadvantage for a while, there are a lot of characters with worse options.

 

[KirbySquad101]

In terms of 3.0.0, aside from buffs to lower tier characters, I would appreciate fixing the more "broken" moves in this game. What I mean by that is:

- Fixing "blind spots" and hitbox placements of attacks ('s smash attacks, 's forward smash, 's up air and forward air)
- Making things less easy to fall out of ('s up air, 's neutral air, 's Witch Twist)
- Just fixing some really silly jank in general ('s forward air dying to everything, hitting platforms with forward throw on Battlefield; seriously, this one feels borderline reminiscent of Melee Kirby's forward throw jank).

 

[MG_3989]

Greninja is not a rushdown character. Haven’t we just been over this?

I don’t know what ZSS and Marth are doing in that “true rushdown” list either. Peach, Wario and Inkling can play rushdown better than a lot of characters listed, though none rely on it completely.

Ultimate is an aggressive game but I think true rushdown is rare. Pichu is best at it due to his raw frame data and reward, followed by Fox and probably Peach once she gets in (you could argue Fox is the best in the game at it overall due to his high speed and mobility). Even these characters need to exercise caution when pressuring and searching for openings. Despite being weaker than in the last couple of Smash entries, defensive options bar airdodge are still strong in Ultimate with a good number of characters having fast (f3-5) aerials or Up Bs out of shield to punish reckless rushing. Good spacing will mitigate these punishes in some, but not all cases depending on the attack ranges of the attacker and defender. Rolls still have good frame data when they’re not spammed and spotdodges are particularly good with the f5 attack cancel.

Perhaps more important than the defensive options themselves is Ultimate’s improved movement options. Through foxtrots and dash dancing comes a strong ability to weave in and out of opponent ranges, leading to bait and punish styles being very effective; this is how I see Wario, Wolf and Greninja most effectively played.

I put Marth therebecause I thought it was Chrom. I shouldn’t have put Greninja or ZZS. I know they’re bait and punish bait and punish but I still think they can sucsessfully rush down with an opening. I was wrong about them being true rushdown. I agree with weaving and utilizing your movement options being very effective in this game. Movement is the most effective defensive option in Ultimate. I know Wario, Peach, and Inkling canrush down very well but I didn’t put them in true rushdown for exactly the reason you said. Maybe bait and punish will be the best playstyle in the meta, even rushdown characters use a ton of bait and punish

I've been saying ZSS is high tier minimum for a while now. People were just discouraged by all her old mains dropping her, but the truth is she has extremely solid matchups across the whole cast and doesn't lose badly to anyone. She just doesn't steam roll people as badly as she did in Smash 4.

Pacman is too bad at killing to ever be top tier IMO. Just such a glaring and painful weakness, I feel the same about Young Link as well, even if he's also really good.

I think Ridley is better than what Tweek showed recently, it's just that the Palu match up in particular is so rough and he hasn't been practicing the game at all since Frostbite.

I agree with that. Watch Trela play him. He’s beaten Awestin arguably the best Ness main in the world 3 times. Awestin pretty much wins Shockwave every week against top competition, it’s almost a weekly regional at this point. This is an mu Ridley shouldn’t win. Yes Ridley has those sword character disjoints and edgeguarding ability that Ness doesn’t like but Ness is still a heavy killer especially with a body that big. Ness can bust out his 50%+ combos in this MU, edgeguardbetter than Ridley against Ridley’s even worse recovery, bait and punish with PK Fire and his aerials, and since Ridleyisn’t that heavy and Ness has no problem killing nor lack of confirm. This MU shoukld be in Ness’s favor but there’s more nuance to that. Evidence shows that a well played Ridley can beat a top level Ness even though it’s not an ideal MU. I’m sure Ridley is capable of putting up a foght against other high tiers. Or maybe it’s just Trela. I think Ridley’s a good character

 

[Kung Fu Treachery]

The only change I really need in 3.0.0 is the ability to set one of the post-match text messages to the ASCII middle finger. Then we'd be cooking with gas.

Though I'd definitely like multihits to be more reliable. Zelda's n-air needs it. On the topic of Zelda, can she have her Smash 4 d-tilt back?

 

[Rizen]

's a character who might lose a match up but if he outplays you a little bit his advantage state is devastating.

When is the 3.0 patch coming out? I don't think the game needs balance changes to be competitive. Some balance changes wouldn't hurt. Fix a few hitboxes, buff low tiers and maybe slightly nerf top tiers who are dominating top 8s.

 

[NotLiquid]

When is the 3.0 patch coming out? I don't think the game needs balance changes to be competitive. Some balance changes wouldn't hurt. Fix a few hitboxes, buff low tiers and maybe slightly nerf top tiers who are dominating top 8s.

3.0 is going to have Joker in it, and he's not hitting until end of April. Considering the datamining suggests that he's going to have Persona 5's newly revealed female character as an alternate costume and that I don't think Atlus are going to want to show said character until the Persona concert where P5 The Royal is getting its full reveal, I'd say we're looking at 3.0 coming out April 24th at earliest. I'm guessing we'll get a Smash Direct on April 25th - a Thursday - with the 3.0 shadowdrop.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

's a character who might lose a match up but if he outplays you a little bit his advantage state is devastating.

When is the 3.0 patch coming out? I don't think the game needs balance changes to be competitive. Some balance changes wouldn't hurt. Fix a few hitboxes, buff low tiers and maybe slightly nerf top tiers who are dominating top 8s.

That is why I keep saying Ridley is like one or two flaw-fixing small buffs from being a real monster in this game. Imagine If Ridely actullay was heavier, had slightly better Oos options or better ways to get around projectile zoning.

Also Ridley's recovery is actullay not THAT bad. It can a bit linear and predictable yes. But there are so many examples of far worse recoveries. I would say his recovery is, average at least

 

[Phoenix_is_OK]

Can you imagine if the patch actually gets delayed until after the P5R trailer?

Dang nabbit damnit gosh darn.

Hoping for some big buffs and minor tweeks across the board. Maybe Nintendo will even make some of the unviewable content watchable, such as Bowser Jr's victory screen.

 

[Justin Allen Goldschmidt]

3.0 is going to have Joker in it, and he's not hitting until end of April. Considering the datamining suggests that he's going to have Persona 5's newly revealed female character as an alternate costume and that I don't think Atlus are going to want to show said character until the Persona concert where P5 The Royal is getting its full reveal, I'd say we're looking at 3.0 coming out April 24th at earliest. I'm guessing we'll get a Smash Direct on April 25th - a Thursday - with the 3.0 shadowdrop.

But even Nintendo and Atlus can't be dumb enough to miss releasing Joker on April Fool's Day....

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

3.0 is going to have Joker in it, and he's not hitting until end of April. Considering the datamining suggests that he's going to have Persona 5's newly revealed female character as an alternate costume and that I don't think Atlus are going to want to show said character until the Persona concert where P5 The Royal is getting its full reveal, I'd say we're looking at 3.0 coming out April 24th at earliest. I'm guessing we'll get a Smash Direct on April 25th - a Thursday - with the 3.0 shadowdrop.

So where are you getting these dates from? I'll be a bit worried if it takes that long for the DLC to come out. If that's the rate in which they come out then we'll get one more character this year.

 

[NotLiquid]

So where are you getting these dates from? I'll be a bit worried if it takes that long for the DLC to come out. If that's the rate in which they come out then we'll get one more character this year.

The Persona concert is April 24, which is where they said they'll have more details on P5 Royal. Nintendo also said Joker would be before the end of April. It makes sense as to why they haven't fully shown Joker yet if he's actually getting an alternate costume/echo of this new character they revealed; the character is most likely done, they're just waiting on Atlus to reveal that second character first, so April 25 is a pretty good sweetspot for when to expect 3.0.

That being said your worrying is misplaced; they work on multiple characters concurrently - as evidenced by the Brave datamine. Character 2 will likely be released at E3, but revealed earlier. Right now the schedule is pretty similar to Smash 4 (Mewtwo was released April 15 despite being revealed the preceding November), and like that game they said the full character rollout will end by February of next year.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

The Persona concert is April 24, which is where they said they'll have more details on P5 Royal. Nintendo also said Joker would be before the end of April. It makes sense as to why they haven't fully shown Joker yet if he's actually getting an alternate costume/echo of this new character they revealed; the character is most likely done, they're just waiting on Atlus to reveal that second character first, so April 25 is a pretty good sweetspot for when to expect 3.0.

That being said your worrying is misplaced; they work on multiple characters concurrently - as evidenced by the Brave datamine. Character 2 will likely be released at E3, but revealed earlier. Right now the schedule is pretty similar to Smash 4 (Mewtwo was released April 15 despite being revealed the preceding November), and like that game they said the full character rollout will end by February of next year.

I'm not sure it really makes sense you can show Joker without showing the alternate costumes. Also I do believe the development is pretty slow. I think they announced joker in December. So from a December announcement till the end of April is about 5 months. If they're taking that long for Joker I assume they'll take that long on every other dlc. Even if we're generous and say 4 months then that's potentially one extra dlc for the year. Which is still a long time. No matter how you slice it the dlc are taking long to develop and it seems it's going to take longer than what they said.

 

[Rizen]

I'm not sure it really makes sense you can show Joker without showing the alternate costumes. Also I do believe the development is pretty slow. I think they announced joker in December. So from a December announcement till the end of April is about 5 months. If they're taking that long for Joker I assume they'll take that long on every other dlc. Even if we're generous and say 4 months then that's potentially one extra dlc for the year. Which is still a long time. No matter how you slice it the dlc are taking long to develop and it seems it's going to take longer than what they said.

Don't forget they released .

 

[NotLiquid]

I'm not sure it really makes sense you can show Joker without showing the alternate costumes. Also I do believe the development is pretty slow. I think they announced joker in December. So from a December announcement till the end of April is about 5 months. If they're taking that long for Joker I assume they'll take that long on every other dlc. Even if we're generous and say 4 months then that's potentially one extra dlc for the year. Which is still a long time. No matter how you slice it the dlc are taking long to develop and it seems it's going to take longer than what they said.

You're overthinking it. They never work on one character at a time. Smash 4's DLC rollout is proof of that, which saw three characters released simultaneously at E3, one more character in November, then two more characters two months later (the three latter of which entered development right around the time Mewtwo released). In Ultimate three DLC characters were already worked on since before the game's actual release date. One is out (Plant), the other is pretty much complete (Joker - on top of extra modes), and the third will most likely release at E3 (Brave), leaving them eight more months to churn out the other three, and that's assuming a couple of those aren't already being prototyped.

The concern that they won't make their February deadline when they have even less characters releasing than they did for Smash 4 is a waste of mental energy. Let's leave it at that and get back on topic.

 

[Ienzo97]

Would be nice if they fixed 's tail hurtbox in the 3.0 patch. I'm pretty sure nobody thinks it was a good change.

 

[Rizen]

This thread's slow. We need a big tournament so we have something to talk about.

Would be nice if they fixed 's tail hurtbox in the 3.0 patch. I'm pretty sure nobody thinks it was a good change.

If you go to training, turn invincibility display on, and use a star item, you get a good view of each character's hurtbox. Mewtwo's hurtbox goes to the nub on the tip of his tail. Other characters like Charizard and Ridley have most of their tail as disjoints.

 

[boysilver400]

This thread's slow. We need a big tournament so we have something to talk about.

Not sure if this counts as a big tournament, but Full Bloom 5 started yesterday and is supposed to continue at noon.

 

[NotLiquid]

Not sure if this counts as a big tournament, but Full Bloom 5 started yesterday and is supposed to continue at noon.

For reference, Ultimate Singles have 255 entrants and the top seeds for it include Cosmos, ESAM, MVD, Marss, Maister, Darkshad, Ned and Yeti. Not the biggest tournament so don't expect any major upsets or breakout characters, but should be some good sets regardless.

 

[Ark of Silence101]

So what's the general consensus on ? I have seen some say he can be as good as Lucina if you're willing to put more emphasis on spacing, while I have seen others that he isn't worth it over his clones, thoughts?

 

[KakuCP9]

So what's the general consensus on ? I have seen some say he can be as good as Lucina if you're willing to put more emphasis on spacing, while I have seen others that he isn't worth it over his clones, thoughts?

I think the biggest reason that people think Marth is inferior to Lucina is that people feel more rewarded for offense with whereas Marth's offense can feel underwhelming due to a lack of a chessy tipper setup. That said, the reason people think Lucina is 'overrated' is because she doesn't have the mobility to sustain that playstyle make approaching a little linear. What people forget is that she rarely has to approach (bar fighting Wolf and ZSS) and between up-b OOS and her quick/long-ranged moves, she stifles other characters offensives and can safely chip away at them until she gets an edge-guard or a soft read thanks to positional advantage. Marth is largely similar and his tipper weakness becomes less damming when you can shut down other characters with his buttons and OOS options (also tipper n-air is mad scary at the ledge for most characters). Lucina atm is probably still better, but the gap rather small compared to what people say and Marth's usage issue is comparable to vs where the former is definitely not a bad character, but the latter rewards the compulsive need to mash buttons and get results.

 

[MapleBeasts]

So what's the general consensus on ? I have seen some say he can be as good as Lucina if you're willing to put more emphasis on spacing, while I have seen others that he isn't worth it over his clones, thoughts?

I personally like him a lot. What he loses in potency from a sourspot hit he gains in raw kill power off of tippers. Tipper ftilt, fsmash both kill really early and all of his aerials will take stocks at higher percents off tippers as well. It can't be overstated how valuable bigger disjointed hitboxes are when you are rewarded immensely for spacing them at max range. Uspecial is one of the better OoS options in the game imo like Lucina's. I think he'll eventually end up high tier as players get more comfortable with his spacing and start to utilize movement options like foxtrotting more to mix up and land tippers. He has potential for more if his shorthop gets buffed and dancing blade does more knockback. He's severely underrated if you ask me.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Anyonw watching Full Bloom, that Marss vs Yeti set was amazing. Yeti showing that MM still LS is still a crazy good move that still has lots of dirty confirms and setups even after the 2.0.0 patch. Marss showing ZSS still has crazy kill confirms and ways to take stocks early. (Was that nair into boost-kick a true to take the set a true confirm?)
Both are high tiers for sure

 

[Cheryl~]

So MVD vs Maister just happened, and oh my god MVD got handled that set. Snake’s neutral is crippled against Game and Watch because of the bucket absorbing projectiles (it gets 2 out of its 3 charges for full oil from a single grenade...) and Game and Watch’s amazing juggling game with Up-Air against Snake’s trashy disadvantage allows him to get a crap ton of percent just off of a stray grab or Up-B. Also apparently you can confirm a N-Air into full bucket and it killed MVD at like 18% in Game 1.

G&W might not be a good character but damn the Snake matchup looks free. Like free free!

 

[The_Bookworm]

So MVD vs Maister just happened, and oh my god MVD got handled that set. Snake’s neutral is crippled against Game and Watch because of the bucket absorbing projectiles (it gets 2 out of its 3 charges for full oil from a single grenade...) and Game and Watch’s amazing juggling game with Up-Air against Snake’s trashy disadvantage allows him to get a crap ton of percent just off of a stray grab or Up-B. Also apparently you can confirm a N-Air into full bucket and it killed MVD at like 18% in Game 1.

G&W might not be a good character but damn the Snake matchup looks free. Like free free!

Doesn't help that MVD is a Snake player that is focused on explosive setups and camping. Compare it to Ally or yeti's Snake, who are more aggressive Snake players by comparison.

Btw, who is to not to say that G&W isn't a good character? Maister has been taking names ever since the beginning and that is showing right now. Can't wait to see how it all translate to his upcoming set against ESAM.

 

[The Jim Jims]

If Ultimate Top 8 ever starts...

MVD definitely had a gameplan he was sticking to for the entirety of the set. He was so content with sitting back and pressing the B button a lot but never began using Grenades as baits or distractions. While their set is indicative of the fact that G&W can compete with Snakes who sit back and relax, I would much rather see Maister play a Snake who's more conscious of grenade usage.

 

[Siledh]

As a Link main, G&W can definitely mess up the zoning game plan, but so can spacies and the rest with reflectors or absorbers. If that all the player can do, well, his own fault really.

 

[Justin Allen Goldschmidt]

As a Link main, G&W can definitely mess up the zoning game plan, but so can spacies and the rest with reflectors or absorbers. If that all the player can do, well, his own fault really.

The weird part is that MVD is usually more willing to adapt than that. Who knows where his head was today.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Marss managed to beat Cosmos 3-2 after a nutty comeback game 5.

He is making a great case for ZSS. If he wins Full Bloom. Then Shaya may have been on to something this whole time lol

 

[The Jim Jims]

Maister 3-1 ESAM

G&W's OOS Options are hella good.

Definitely not looking like a Low Tier

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Maister 3-1 ESAM

G&W's OOS Options are hella good.

Definitely not looking like a Low Tier

Until people get consistent experience against G&W I'd be highly hesitant to claim he's jumped out of low tier.

We had this song and dance with Palutena in SSB4 where she started doing well at several large tournaments and people started hyping her up into like, upper part of mid tier. And then after a few months all of the pros got experience with her and her results dropped like a rock to the point several of her top level mains dropped her completely and she ended up at the bottom of E tier (or 45th out of 55th if you prefer).

One or even a handful of good placements doesn't move a character up out of low tier (particularly with a roster this large). Long term consistency does.

 

[ZephyrZ]

That is why I keep saying Ridley is like one or two flaw-fixing small buffs from being a real monster in this game. Imagine If Ridely actullay was heavier, had slightly better Oos options or better ways to get around projectile zoning.

Also Ridley's recovery is actullay not THAT bad. It can a bit linear and predictable yes. But there are so many examples of far worse recoveries. I would say his recovery is, average at least

I don't think a small change like a weight buff would make a big difference for Ridley, actually. I think him and other "Bowser-likes" as I call them (DK, Ganondorf, Charizard) are just polarizing by nature with extremely powerful advantage but extremely poor disadvantage. They can win a losing match up really hard but are still exploitable enough to lose a winning match up equally as bad, especially since their frame data forces them to take risks (Ridley at least has disjoints, though). Even with a better weight stat or slightly stronger OoS or approach, he'd still get combed and juggled hard.

I still think his recovery is still below average. You can mix him up but it's still really exploitable.

Anyway, I the extreme nature of these characters can still really come in clutch and make for good pockets/secodaries, kind of like how Nairo pulled that crazy reverse 3-0 with Ganon recently. I feel Ridley is still the most reliable of them as a main due to those aforementioned disjoints in neutral.

 

[Locke 06]

Until people get consistent experience against G&W I'd be highly hesitant to claim he's jumped out of low tier.

We had this song and dance with Palutena in SSB4 where she started doing well at several large tournaments and people started hyping her up into like, upper part of mid tier. And then after a few months all of the pros got experience with her and her results dropped like a rock to the point several of her top level mains dropped her completely and she ended up at the bottom of E tier (or 45th out of 55th if you prefer).

One or even a handful of good placements doesn't move a character up out of low tier (particularly with a roster this large). Long term consistency does.

How long does Maister have to win tournaments consistently for it to be considered long term? He's been doing this since day 1.

 

[The Jim Jims]

Until people get consistent experience against G&W I'd be highly hesitant to claim he's jumped out of low tier.

We had this song and dance with Palutena in SSB4 where she started doing well at several large tournaments and people started hyping her up into like, upper part of mid tier. And then after a few months all of the pros got experience with her and her results dropped like a rock to the point several of her top level mains dropped her completely and she ended up at the bottom of E tier (or 45th out of 55th if you prefer).

One or even a handful of good placements doesn't move a character up out of low tier (particularly with a roster this large). Long term consistency does.

I agree that we shouldn't instantly claim that G&W is mid-tier, but a lot of commonalities between low tiers don't seem to apply to G&W, or at the very least, Maister. Most low tiers have slow, poor options out of shield. G&W has good enough air speed and a large hitbox in Nair that equate to a fair OOS game that other low tiers like Plant don't have. Furthermore, G&W has a kill confirm that Maister's hit relatively consistently at top level here in DSmash -> Kill Move. As I'm typing this, Maister also just hit Drag Down Nair -> Dtilt to kill at 130 on Marss. Lastly, G&W has an unpredictable recovery that's more difficult to hit than the likes of Kirby and Junior. ESAM hit maybe one edgeguard in their set on FD.

The things that apply to all low tiers don't apply to G&W in the same magnitude.

 

[blackghost]

How long does Maister have to win tournaments consistently for it to be considered long term? He's been doing this since day 1.

As far as i know these are his best wins. and just ask the ness fanbase. when this game came out some people whispered how good ness was but it wasnt until awestin and some other ness players started claiming multiple big wins that ness started to get respect. no matter how good this one player does it doesnt carry a character to high tier or sometimes mid tier.

 

[NotLiquid]

The one thing I'll say that Maister's G&W proves is that having only one good OoS option doesn't matter when it is practically unpunishable and essentially ejects you out of a disadvantage situation. G&W has a get-out-of-jail free card any time you attempt to shield pressure him.

 

[meleebrawler]

Most explanations I've seen for G&W's low-tier status seemed very knee-jerky, only looking at things he's lost and not new things he can do. Forward air is a common sticking point, but how much does it really matter when back air fills the same niche and is buffed to kill in the same situations his old fair usually did (edgeguarding)?

You can honestly make a drinking game out of all the times people claimed a veteran would suck in Ultimate due to losing a main tool from Smash 4 ever since E3. Bowser has no Showtime? Samus can't dash attack to five uairs? They've got no chance.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Wha, what the heck just happened there. utterly tragic SD cost him the set in a last game, last stock situation. Just...not like that

 

[MrGameguycolor]

You can honestly make a drinking game out of all the times people claimed a veteran would suck in Ultimate due to losing a main tool from Smash 4 ever since E3. Bowser has no Showtime? Samus can't dash attack to five uairs? They've got no chance.

On the contrary...
"K. Rool is high tier because Belly Armor & Down Throw are OP."

Yeah, as soon we felt how sluggish his mobility & moves were, that didn't last a month.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Cosmos vs Maister was so close, with Cosmos emerging victorious. Nice job to both of them, and I think Maister may have put G&W into public attention.

In the meantime, possibility of ZSS taking another fairly big event? Edit: Yep. Congrats to Marss for another nice victory!