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COMPETITIVE Brawl+: Code Agenda

WeirdoZ Inc.

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CF's knee is more of less unaffected by the hitlag code, same with Zelda's lightning kicks, since they're elemental attacks.

After testing the subtraction code on 2 (removing 2 frames of hitlag for every hitlag inducing impact), I find it neglegible at best, especially on the strong attacks, like Marth's tipper, which is affected by the code, unlike CF's Knee.
 

kupo15

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You know, lowering hitstun to make combos more escapable in order to make up for less hitlag making DI'ing harder seems like poor logic to me.

We put the skill back into DI, but nerf combo skills by reducing combo potential with reduced hitstun?

Isn't comboing more fun? Shouldn't we be trying to preserve that insead of "DI skill"?

Weren't we going to place more emphasis on Brawl+ combos being dependent on predicting your opponent's DI? Isn't out-predicting your opponent the fun part about being on the receiving end of a combo? Aren't we just nerfing that push-and-pull aspect by making BOTH things harder (DI'ing and combo'ing)?

It's just not making sense to me.
What do you mean? Even in melee you had to predict your opponents DI as well but the thing was, they made mistakes in their DI because you mindgamed them and since the hitlag in brawl is so much, the latter rarely works.

The more I think about it, maybe the hitstun won't change but if anything, lowering it by a small amount will make up for the mistakes. Short answer. We need to test too see if we really need to lower hitstun. Combos will not go away because of this code. What this code does is rewards faster reactions to DI properly or else your DI will end up being like a lvl9 cpu which makes comboing easier.

I don't know about you, but I'd rather combo people by using their DI against them because I was the superior player to mindgame such a DI to capitalize on it rather than having them DI PERFECTLY every time even when they make a mistake. Combos are boring and limited when everyone can DI perfectly for 99% of attacks thrown at them with a slow reaction time.

So maybe we have to lower hitstun maybe we don't. With the finished version of this code this is what will happen. If your reaction and prediction is good, then you won't see anything different than what you see now as far as DI. But if you are not so quick, then you will have bad DI more often which is something to improve on thus creating better, interesting combos.
 

kupo15

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does the hitlag affect zzs gun at all, and gaw's bair and nair?
what do you mean? It should make all moves appear faster even though it really isnt

Im going to keep saying this until the new version comes out so no one has a false understanding.

THIS CODE IS CURRENTLY INCOMPLETE!!!
 

Alopex

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But you're contradicting yourself kupo.

You can't mindgame them and punish their incorrect DI if they didn't even have time to DI.

The combo game in Brawl+ right now is so exciting precisely because your opponent can easily DI perfectly if you don't mindgame them.

It transforms combos into a battle of wits. Nerf the DI, and all of a sudden one person has had a minor lobotomy (I know it's poor analogy but I couldn't think of anything else that would apply to wits).

You can do everything you are saying RIGHT NOW kupo. Your opponent being perfectly capable of DI'ing anywhere they want any time isn't preventing you from mindgaming them into DI'ing in the wrong direction.

Rather, by making it harder for them to properly DI, you're just giving yourself a more technical advantage and relying even less on mindgames than you say you want to.
 

zxeon

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does the hitlag affect zzs gun at all, and gaw's bair and nair?
No it doesn't affect ZSS's gun and I haven't tested GaW's turtle but if it dosen't freeze with the current beta code then it all the different hits in the attack will most likely happen faster than the way they do now.
 

kupo15

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But you're contradicting yourself kupo.

You can't mindgame them and punish their incorrect DI if they didn't even have time to DI.

The combo game in Brawl+ right now is so exciting precisely because your opponent can easily DI perfectly if you don't mindgame them.

It transforms combos into a battle of wits. Nerf the DI, and all of a sudden one person has had a minor lobotomy (I know it's poor analogy but I couldn't think of anything else that would apply to wits).

You can do everything you are saying RIGHT NOW kupo. Your opponent being perfectly capable of DI'ing anywhere they want any time isn't preventing you from mindgaming them into DI'ing in the wrong direction.

Rather, by making it harder for them to properly DI, you're just giving yourself a more technical advantage and relying even less on mindgames than you say you want to.
No, its too easy to DI. If I get hit by a ganon fsmash while DIing down because I wasn't expecting it or w/e and as I get hit I can DI perfectly upwards or actually even overcompensate with my DI...then there is a problem. Yes this happens to me.

We are NOT removing DI or SDI. We are giving you a smaller window to input it so that you need faster reactions to DI properly. Its too easy to DI properly in this game period.

THE HITLAG CODE IS HALF COMPLETE!!
 

SketchHurricane

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CF's knee is more of less unaffected by the hitlag code, same with Zelda's lightning kicks, since they're elemental attacks.

After testing the subtraction code on 2 (removing 2 frames of hitlag for every hitlag inducing impact), I find it neglegible at best, especially on the strong attacks, like Marth's tipper, which is affected by the code, unlike CF's Knee.
The knee is definitely affected by the code. You probably just didn't notice due to using subtraction, since the knee's hitlag is very large.

division by 4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-vPtXsdS-U

As for lowing hitstun, that's just a prediction. If the code is corrected to affect both characters on hit, then theoretically there should be no change to combos, just an increase in game speed. This hitlag code is the most impressive speed boost I've seen in all the codes so far. It achieves what the character speed code did, just at a lower level.

Having said that, it's my impression that the hitlag code currently speeds up the entire attack, not just the hitlag. I can't say for certain because I didn't test extensively, but using division, Fox's nair definitely seemed faster when not even connect. Give it a look.
 

zxeon

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No, its too easy to DI. If I get hit by a ganon fsmash while DIing down because I wasn't expecting it or w/e and as I get hit I can DI perfectly upwards or actually even overcompensate with my DI...then there is a problem. Yes this happens to me.

We are NOT removing DI or SDI. We are giving you a smaller window to input it so that you need faster reactions to DI properly. Its too easy to DI properly in this game period.

THE HITLAG CODE IS HALF COMPLETE!!
Calm down Kupo just slap "beta" next to the code.
 

Alopex

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But you're using a move with a large amount of hitlag as your example... a move that would never be used in a combo.

Try changing your DI input as you are being hit by Falcon's Uair. Suddenly it's a lot less effective, and would be entirely useless if you had a smaller hitlag window than you currently do.
 

kupo15

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Division by 4 is def too much. I want to see it halved. It shouldn't affect the overall speed of the moves but if it does, I think we should fix that.

Calm down Kupo just slap "beta" next to the code.
Its hard to calm down when everyone is bashing a code they have no idea what it does to the game AND a code that's not complete. Honestly, I would not have released the code in this state if I had my wii -_-

THE CODE IS HALF COMPLETE!

^Can I stop saying this now?
 

zxeon

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Division by 4 is def too much. I want to see it halved. It shouldn't affect the overall speed of the moves but if it does, I think we should fix that.



Its hard to calm down when everyone is bashing a code they have no idea what it does to the game AND a code that's not complete. Honestly, I would not have released the code in this state if I had my wii -_-

THE CODE IS HALF COMPLETE!

^Can I stop saying this now?
Now you know kind of how I felt about MAD.

I noticed you took HAD off your list.
 

kupo15

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Now you know kind of how I felt about MAD.
yea but I mean you have to admit, this is a little different situation. Hitlag affects what its suppose to affect instead of MAD where it affects the ground options and the air game and this code is short also and a broken mechanic in the game. I don't want to dive into the past though...

I noticed you took HAD off your list.
There really isnt any room and PW probably and most likely won't make it
 

Alopex

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But I'm not complaining about the code. I'm complaining about its purpose, so I don't see why you'd get frustrated by my comments.

I reiterate that my issue with reducing hitlag lies in the reduction of combo defense because combo moves don't have large hitlag to begin with.

You used a very hitlaggy move (Ganon Fsmash) as your example, one that would never be used in a combo, so it didn't really do it for me, regardless of the state of the code.
 

zxeon

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yea but I mean you have to admit, this is a little different situation. Hitlag affects what its suppose to affect instead of MAD where it affects the ground options and the air game and this code is short also and a broken mechanic in the game. I don't want to dive into the past though...


There really isnt any room and PW probably and most likely won't make it
I guess you don't get it.

Who said PW had to make it? you never know how many lines are going to be left over after all is said and done.
 

SketchHurricane

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Nothing amazing, but a few moments
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGl6mX0mYKU

forgot to put lagless edge on though.

I reiterate that my issue with reducing hitlag lies in the reduction of combo defense because combo moves don't have large hitlag to begin with.

You used a very hitlaggy move (Ganon Fsmash) as your example, one that would never be used in a combo, so it didn't really do it for me, regardless of the state of the code.
Personally I don't think the hitlag code will have much affect on combo DI. Just as you said, combo moves are quick to begin with - who DI's combo moves on reaction? You DI combo moves on prediction, not reaction. It's kill moves that you DI on reaction. I think what Kupo is trying to say is that it's near impossible to mindgame someone with a kill move like Ganon's fsmash/CF knee because of the hitlag.
 

leafgreen386

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Alopex, if you know you're going to be hit by an attack, physically DIing it will not be difficult. However, you may not know which one, and that is the reason for this code. It makes it so you have to predict more than just look at what your opponent is doing. Plus, you can't deny that the speed increase the game gets for it is incredible.
 

Revven

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I guess you don't get it. Who said PW had to make it? you never know how many lines are going to be left over after all is said and done.
I really don't want a HAD at this point. DDing makes up for the loss of a WD IMO and if hitlag is sounding as promising as Kupo is making it out to be, this game is going to be FAST enough.

Do you really want to make someone make a code that we may, inevitably, not use in the end? I mean, yeah there ARE some codes out for Brawl+ that won't be used in the end but, those were either beta codes or codes we wanted to try out. HAD I can already see being quite similar to MAD but, just not as bad. But, if we included HAD, think about it, we'd have to lower hitstun EVEN MORE in order to counter its "one air dodge but able to attack afterwards" con to it.

I'm just not in favor of it anymore. MAD was good for awhile but, DDing just feels SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO goooooooddddd.
 

kupo15

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But I'm not complaining about the code. I'm complaining about its purpose, so I don't see why you'd get frustrated by my comments.

I reiterate that my issue with reducing hitlag lies in the reduction of combo defense because combo moves don't have large hitlag to begin with.

You used a very hitlaggy move (Ganon Fsmash) as your example, one that would never be used in a combo, so it didn't really do it for me, regardless of the state of the code.
Even combo moves are too laggy such as falcons nair and uair. Yes. its very sluggish and I don't see what you mean by a reduction of combo defense. You need a faster reaction to get perfect DI. Thats it. Combos are going to be much better now and the flow of the game will be better. Melee's hitlag was similar what this code is going to do and the combos didn't lack at all. I am not following you. I get frustrated because you don't see how good this makes the game. Its the most natural, speed increase the game has ever had and it makes the combo system better and more skill on DI. This is not a "too good" code that is OP or anything. You need better reactions to get the same DI affect you are achieving without the code. Thats it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGl6mX0mYKU#t=1m0s

I can not wait until the second half of the code is complete
 

zxeon

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I really don't want a HAD at this point. DDing makes up for the loss of a WD IMO and if hitlag is sounding as promising as Kupo is making it out to be, this game is going to be FAST enough.

Do you really want to make someone make a code that we may, inevitably, not use in the end? I mean, yeah there ARE some codes out for Brawl+ that won't be used in the end but, those were either beta codes or codes we wanted to try out. HAD I can already see being quite similar to MAD but, just not as bad. But, if we included HAD, think about it, we'd have to lower hitstun EVEN MORE in order to counter its "one air dodge but able to attack afterwards" con to it.

I'm just not in favor of it anymore. MAD was good for awhile but, DDing just feels SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO goooooooddddd.
I never said I still wanted HAD just saying.
 

Yeroc

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The thing is Kupo, nearly everything we've done to this game has been a reduction of some form of defensive mechanic, and often equally a boon to its complimentary offensive mechanic. We reworked hitstun to allow for more combos, and it made it so people died sooner because they couldn't interrupt anymore. We made ALC to make more moves viable approaches and facilitate combos, which was the start of the shieldgrabbing nerf. We took out ASL to strengthen edgeguarding and it made most or all recoveries orders of magnitude harder to get back to the stage with. We're in the middle of reworking the shieldstun, which could potentially nerf the rest of shieldgrabbing into near nonexistance if we aren't careful. Now you want to weaken DI so that combos are easier to perform, effectively killing the last measure of defense a person has against a runaway combo chain. We don't want to completely invert the offense-defense balance here, man. Yes offensive measures are good, but there has to be parity. I don't see what's particularly broken about the hitlag or SDI system other than you don't like it. That's not a substantive enough reason to go mucking about with it IMO. The same can be said about gravity or jump height, but I'll not go into that right now. Perhaps if you could better explain why you think this change is going to be so useful Kupo, and maybe I'll better understand what it is you're aiming for.
 

SketchHurricane

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The thing is Kupo, nearly everything we've done to this game has been a reduction of some form of defensive mechanic, and often equally a boon to its complimentary offensive mechanic. We reworked hitstun to allow for more combos, and it made it so people died sooner because they couldn't interrupt anymore. We made ALC to make more moves viable approaches and facilitate combos, which was the start of the shieldgrabbing nerf. We took out ASL to strengthen edgeguarding and it made most or all recoveries orders of magnitude harder to get back to the stage with. We're in the middle of reworking the shieldstun, which could potentially nerf the rest of shieldgrabbing into near nonexistance if we aren't careful. Now you want to weaken DI so that combos are easier to perform, effectively killing the last measure of defense a person has against a runaway combo chain. We don't want to completely invert the offense-defense balance here, man. Yes offensive measures are good, but there has to be parity. I don't see what's particularly broken about the hitlag or SDI system other than you don't like it. That's not a substantive enough reason to go mucking about with it IMO. The same can be said about gravity or jump height, but I'll not go into that right now. Perhaps if you could better explain why you think this change is going to be so useful Kupo, and maybe I'll better understand what it is you're aiming for.
Wow, I'm pretty sure he's explained his stance in virtually every single response -.-

But your definitely right about parity of offense and defense. Playing today with all the codes on, I realized it's probably a good idea to tone everything down just a tad. When they are all combined like this, the defensive nerf becomes very apparent.
 

leafgreen386

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This won't make DI weaker. It might make SDI weaker, since you won't be able to do it as many times or as easily anymore, but the ability to DI well will still be there. You can still input a DI on reaction with the hitlag code, but whether you input the correct one to avoid the combo or not is what will be tested. Without the hitlag reduction, you pretty much always get the right DI. With it, you will pretty much always get DI, you just might guess wrong occasionally.

When they are all combined like this, the defensive nerf becomes very apparent.
This definitely rings true. On their own, they're fine nerfs to the defensive game, but we can't go full blast on all of them or else we're gonna be running into problems later down the line.
 

kupo15

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Ok this does not nerf the DI the way you think it does. This only makes it so you need a faster reaction to have the same good DI as you do now. Its the most natural, speed increase the game has ever had and it makes the combo system better and more skill on DI.

Do I SDI right now? No not really. Can I get out combos easily? Yes. The DI in this game is so powerful that what you fear should not come true. I hope Dark sonic comes to say something to help out because I don't know what to say. Melee wasn't broken with its small hitlag window and brawl is the same way. Look at this match.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGl6mX0mYKU#t=1m0s

Yes there was mistakes because obviously they are not used to the quicker reaction needed. Also don't forget that hitlag code is incomplete atm. But the main thing is this. The only nerf the DI gets is from poor reaction.
But your definitely right about parity of offense and defense. Playing today with all the codes on, I realized it's probably a good idea to tone everything down just a tad. When they are all combined like this, the defensive nerf becomes very apparent.
You are forgetting that you are playing with an incomplete code that allows you more time to recover from hitlag than the opponent which will get fixed soon
 

SketchHurricane

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Leafgreen seems to be comprehending the issue, I'm not sure why everyone else is having trouble!

Besides, why are we acting like combos in B+ are ridiculous? They aren't. There are only a handful of runaway combo-ers in B+ at the moment (Fox, Luigi, maybe ZSS). Falcon isn't even on of them, since you can almost always DI away out of everything he does.
 

Starscream

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I tried subtracted hitlag by 3 and it was pretty incredible. I'll gladly use 1/2 once the bugs are out and it's finalized. Speeds the game up a ton.

Also seems to give multi-hit moves less of a "suction" effect. Landing all the hits on Fox's fair doesn't seem as easy (still is though).
 

Yeroc

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I understand what's going on, but it's Kupo who's confusing me. The code doesn't actually address what you say it does. All you're doing with hitlag is trimming the SDI window, and I suppose in a sense if you trim attacker hitlag they'll get to their next attack faster than they would otherwise, but it's not changing DI at all, you're just making it harder to SDI. But even if you do some frame trimming here or there with hitlag, most/all competent players probably won't even see any change in their ability to DI normally. You likely won't be able to change how well people DI without actually changing the overall speed of the game, to cut down on people's reaction time. You'll just lose the ability to SDI, something you say you already don't do a whole lot of. So what's the point? You're not fixing what you're meaning to fix, and you're breaking something that is hard enough to do already (like edgeteching). So just leave it be IMO.
 

cAm8ooo

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You likely won't be able to change how well people DI without actually changing the overall speed of the game, to cut down on people's reaction time.
From what i understand and see in the vid. This DOES change the speed of the game in a sense. Since moves are shorter you have less reaction time to DI correctly. Did you not see how fast CF's Nair was?
 

kupo15

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It's not what you're trying to do, it's the reasoning behind it.
Sometimes I have gut feelings but don't know how to get my point across. Melee's SDI window was very small yet no one had a problem. It was something that made the game feel faster and more of a fighting game IMO. As leaf said before, yes it may not affect DI combo moves as much now that I think about it, but the finisher moves and long hitlag ones really disrupt the flow of the game and are easily DIed to perfection. But even though combo moves are somewhat predictable, even the slightest change from that plan could cause bad DI whereas with the default hitlag, you would still be able to adjust perfectly.

But I guess I can't explain it well so I'll let them do the talking since we are on the same page.
 

cAm8ooo

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I have yet to test it. But if it makes the game flow better i don't see why we wouldnt want to use it.
 

SketchHurricane

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You'll just lose the ability to SDI, something you say you already don't do a whole lot of. So what's the point? You're not fixing what you're meaning to fix, and you're breaking something that is hard enough to do already (like edgeteching). So just leave it be IMO.
You can't just toss the word "break" around like that. The code doesn't break anything, it just makes it harder to SDI big hits. This means it's easier to mindgame a big hit on the opponent. You can still SDI if you predict the hit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGl6mX0mYKU#t=1m31s

I was expecting a quick ground hit, instead I got a short hop knee. Even though I was totally unprepared, I would have had time to react with SDI if it was regular hitlag.
 

kupo15

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From what i understand and see in the vid. This DOES change the speed of the game in a sense. Since moves are shorter you have less reaction time to DI correctly. Did you not see how fast CF's Nair was?
It does not make the move shorter. Less freeze frames makes it appear to be shorter when it really isnt.
 
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