COMPETITIVE Brawl+: Code Agenda

[Almas]

All attacks have hitlag associated with them. Some attacks seem to have an 'elemental' property (e.g. Falcon's Knee, Zelda's Kick), which we assumed to multiply hitlag. Instead it seems they add a static amount to the normal hitlag which is calculated in a different way, and so this code doesn't affect it. Still, I wouldn't call that gamebreaking considering the minority of moves that cause it (and, arguably, the awesomeness of hitting with them warrants the freeze).

Hitlag shouldn't be completely removed - but a reduction is important.

EDIT: I believe in Melee all attacks had about 3-4 frames of hitlag, with higher power ones having slightly more. Most notably, Samus' Fully Charged Blast Shot had 16 frames (IIRC). The effect was clearly more noticable with multi-hit moves - for example, the timing of the L-cancel on Fox' Dair is changed quite significantly by whether or not you hit your target.

 

[zxeon]

All attacks have hitlag associated with them. Some attacks seem to have an 'elemental' property (e.g. Falcon's Knee, Zelda's Kick), which we assumed to multiply hitlag. Instead it seems they add a static amount to the normal hitlag which is calculated in a different way, and so this code doesn't affect it. Still, I wouldn't call that gamebreaking considering the minority of moves that cause it (and, arguably, the awesomeness of hitting with them warrants the freeze).

Hitlag shouldn't be completely removed - but a reduction is important.

EDIT: I believe in Melee all attacks had about 3-4 frames of hitlag, with higher power ones having slightly more. Most notably, Samus' Fully Charged Blast Shot had 16 frames (IIRC). The effect was clearly more noticable with multi-hit moves - for example, the timing of the L-cancel on Fox' Dair is changed quite significantly by whether or not you hit your target.

Have you tried half hitlag?

 

[Team Giza]

I dont like what these codes do to drill attacks in the least bit and those are the ones that are most effected by the subtraction code as well.

 

[WeirdoZ Inc.]

I must say, with no hitlag, the game definitely feels faster and more flowy (is that a word?). 'Cause when you hit somebody (except with an elemental attack, as Almas said) they launch immediately, instead of a split second later. It's much more noticable with multihit attacks, like Sonic's f-air, or Pikachu's d-smash.

 

[poklin]

I like it GG! ty

 

[zxeon]

I dont like what these codes do to drill attacks in the least bit and those are the ones that are most effected by the subtraction code as well.

What is it you don't like?

 

[MBlaze]

Do you use both hitlag codes or just the division one for half?

 

[Almas]

Removing all hitlag removes Smash DI, which removes a fundamental aspect of the defensive game.

I'm not too bothered by it affecting drill attacks, because Smash DI isn't too relevant to them anyway.

That said I haven't tinkered with this code yet - and I won't be playing Brawl with friends until atleast after the weekend. If I do spend some time coding during that point, then I've got a couple of fun codes I want to do before I try and wrap my head around the best way to work on a jump momentum code.

Youtube Uploads still in progress, for anyone who cares. That said it'll take a few hours for them all to complete.

 

[Alopex]

About the shieldstun code:

I just tested your glitch, Falco400, and it didn't happen at all.

I'm using the values 2.75/3.

I tried multiple times with lasers and jabs, and no problem ever occurred.
By guess is that the glitch is being caused by the shieldstun code's interaction with another code.

I'm using:

Shield Stun beta 5
No Tripping
Infinite Replay
Hitstun 10%
Auto L-Cancel
PT No Stamina
PT No Swap
Buffer Modifier 1 Frame

With those codes on, I had no problems whatsoever.

Let me emphasize that I tried with multiple characters, with multiple projectiles, and continuous PSing. Yes, I did try to replicate your results with Falco and Falcon firstly. When nothing happened, I tried other characters.

It still never occurred.

 

[WeirdoZ Inc.]

I've used both the division and subtraction codes. I set the division one to 2, and the subtraction one to 0A and FF.

The division code set to 2 has reduced hitlag. Probably around half. Feels good, definitely faster than normal, but not as much as ubstraction on 0A or FF.

The subtraction code set to FF has no hitlag whatsoever, except for elemental attacks, which are mostly unchanged. Also feels good, but it's noticibly faster than the division code at 2. This may or may not be a bad thing, depending on people's tastes. 0A (10) appears to be the same.

 

[kupo15]

Any value over 2 on the division code causes multi-hit attack to freeze. On the up side when hitlag is reduced by half the game flows a lot faster and I like it.

I told you guys the default hitlag is too long and that the game would feel faster

All attacks have hitlag associated with them. Some attacks seem to have an 'elemental' property (e.g. Falcon's Knee, Zelda's Kick), which we assumed to multiply hitlag. Instead it seems they add a static amount to the normal hitlag which is calculated in a different way, and so this code doesn't affect it. Still, I wouldn't call that gamebreaking considering the minority of moves that cause it (and, arguably, the awesomeness of hitting with them warrants the freeze).

Hitlag shouldn't be completely removed - but a reduction is important.

EDIT: I believe in Melee all attacks had about 3-4 frames of hitlag, with higher power ones having slightly more. Most notably, Samus' Fully Charged Blast Shot had 16 frames (IIRC). The effect was clearly more noticable with multi-hit moves - for example, the timing of the L-cancel on Fox' Dair is changed quite significantly by whether or not you hit your target.

Hitlag shouldn't be removed. In fact, most melee moves had 1 or 2 frames of hitlag with the occasional 4 and samus charge shot i believe is 5.

Hitlag should be cut in half at least

So do we need a hitlag code that affects the person getting hit as well?

Spoiler

****in ***** *** no wii to test this awesome **** **** it

 

[zxeon]

I've used both the division and subtraction codes. I set the division one to 2, and the subtraction one to 0A and FF.

The division code set to 2 has reduced hitlag. Probably around half. Feels good, definitely faster than normal, but not as much as ubstraction on 0A or FF.

The subtraction code set to FF has no hitlag whatsoever, except for elemental attacks, which are mostly unchanged. Also feels good, but it's noticibly faster than the division code at 2. This may or may not be a bad thing, depending on people's tastes. 0A (10) appears to be the same.

Hitlag has to exist to allow for smash DI.

 

[WeirdoZ Inc.]

Then the division code at half (2) would probably be a good bet. A third or a quarter mught be worth looking at too, though any division higher than 2 seems to sketch out apparently.

 

[kupo15]

Hitlag has to exist to allow for smash DI.

This is true. Besides, no hitlag means freezing in hitlag.....forever.

It should at least be cut in half

 

[MBlaze]

Is no one paying attention to my questions or the glitch in why we can't use the new shield stun? Jesus...... lol

 

[leafgreen386]

I'm not too bothered by it affecting drill attacks, because Smash DI isn't too relevant to them anyway.

Are you fricking kidding me? Drills are the moves most affected by SDI. Removing the ability to SDI drills makes them ********. Remember how we kept talking about how fox's dair infinite was broken before we realized that SDI makes it more or less impossible? Yeah... what about now? If you get hit by a dair and cannot SDI it, you will die.

And kupo... no. Samus's charge shot had way more than 5 frames of hitlag. I'm pretty sure it was 20 frames. This conflicts with what Almas said, but his numbers are a whole lot closer to what melee actually used than yours.

The game needs hitlag. It needs less than it has now. But it needs hitlag.

Also, has anyone tried to use regular DI with the subtraction code? To make sure it's like... you know... possible? Because if there is zero hitlag, then theoretically DIing should be impossible, since the input is read on the last frame of hitlag.

 

[kupo15]

Im prob wrong about the charge shot but here is my source

Hitlag and Freeze Frames: Each attack has a few frames of hit lag during which the attack connects (usually just one, but sometimes as high as 2-3). During this time your character is frozen in place, but DI can still be inputted. This property has lead to the practice of Smash DI.

Check the melee boards

Hitlag has to be there but as leaf said, must be less than it is right now.

Do I need to request for a hitlag code that affects the person being hit?

Mario

shield stun (strong) (11 lines)
C28753EC 00000006
48000009 40400000
FC20F890 839F007C
A39C0006 2C1C001A
41820010 7F8802A6
C03C0000 FC2107F2
FC00081E 00000000
C277F78C 00000002
2C1C001D 41820008
B39E0006 2C1CFFFF
60000000 00000000
3

shield stun (weak) (1 line)
04B88468 40800000
4

 

[Almas]

Watch the ending credits of Perfect Control - it shows Mario perfectly SDI'ing a Charge Shot frame by frame. You can only make one button input per frame, and he makes atleast 10.

Eh, you're probably right about the SDI drill thing. I'm not really in a position to argue.


My Youtube Channel
Videos being uploaded as I post, but I'm going to bed now while half of them load up. Most of them are probably trash, but there's some humorous moments. I'll provide direct links to the videos once they're all done in the morning.

 

[Alopex]

Is no one paying attention to my questions or the glitch in why we can't use the new shield stun? Jesus...... lol

Well, I came in here and said this: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=6324527&postcount=2168

But no one has taken notice of it yet.

 

[MBlaze]

Cool, not I have something presentable to show up to the tourney with Kupo, thanks.

But is the hitlag code working right? And if so, someone post it here so I can have it before I leave in the morning with the values for halved hit lag please? Thanks.

 

[zxeon]

I found a glitch in the hitlag division code. At half hitlag with the Ice Climbers the main Ice Climber freezes whenever you do a Fthrow and the second one freezes on occasion whenever you do thier Utilt (the multi-hit attack when they raise thier hammers above thier heads and spin them).

I have no idea why it could be a glitch with the code or the game not agreeing with half hitlag like some hitstun not being divisible by the number you're using.

 

[kupo15]

Cool, not I have something presentable to show up to the tourney with Kupo, thanks.

But is the hitlag code working right? And if so, someone post it here so I can have it before I leave in the morning with the values for halved hit lag please? Thanks.

hitlag is working correctly HOWEVER. We need it to affect the person being attacked so until the addition is here....don't use the hitlag code

I found a glitch in the hitlag division code. At half hitlag with the Ice Climbers the main Ice Climber freezes whenever you do a Fthrow and the second one freezes on occasion whenever you do thier Utilt (the multi-hit attack when they raise thier hammers above thier heads and spin them).

I have no idea why it could be a glitch with the code or the game not agreeing with half hitstun like some hitstun not being divisible by the number you're using.

Really? Can someone confirm this? And you mean hitlag not hitstun lol

 

[Alphabravo]

I found a glitch in the hitlag division code. At half hitlag with the Ice Climbers the main Ice Climber freezes whenever you do a Fthrow and the second one freezes on occasion whenever you do thier Utilt (the multi-hit attack when they raise thier hammers above thier heads and spin them).

I have no idea why it could be a glitch with the code or the game not agreeing with half hitstun like some hitstun not being divisible by the number you're using.

I had the same problem. But using Charizard's Up-B on several characters as well as Marth's Side-B causes characters to freeze also. Like zxeon said, I'm unsure if it's a glitch or rather a problem that has something to do with the hitlag.

Edit: btw I was using the division code for the hitlag.

 

[kupo15]

how about the subtraction?

Maybe it has something to do with not affected the attacked which will be fixed?

 

[MBlaze]

Okay codes I'm bringing, all the ones that Kupo has in his text file but not using the pause code and replacing new shield stun with old due to the bug, good no?

 

[kupo15]

I hear no one can replicate the shield glitch so the choice is yours

 

[WeirdoZ Inc.]

I can confirm that division on 2 freezes IC' fthrow and utilt, Charizard's upb, and Marth's fsmash.

I tested substraction on 03 (3) and it doesn't freeze any of those attacks. 3 for subtraction os probably a good start for people to test on though. I'm gonna move onto 4 and 5 and see how that turns out.

 

[Alopex]

I already stated before that I have no issues whatsoever with the shieldstun beta 5 code.

It works flawlessly.

The glitch is probably to due another code having a poor interaction with the new shieldstun code.

So instead of ragging on the perfectly fine (and far superior) new shieldstun code, we should find out which code in Falco400's codeset is having the issues with the new shieldstun.

Here is his codeset, according to his Youtube video:
No ASL
ALC
Hitstun 10%
Fallspeed 1.1
Lagless ledges
25% decay
1 frame buffering
Crouch Canceling
Dash Dancing
Shieldstun 3/2


EDIT: From my own codeset, the ALC, Hitstun 10%, and 1 Frame Buffer are not the culprits, because I used them and I never came across any issues.

EDIT 2: I don't even know if doing anything like this is even necessary. Falco400 only had the glitch happen in one match out of the MANY he played. So even he wasn't able to replicate it. I hardly think that's reason to dispose of this code, and it's definitely going to make it difficult to find the problem if it can't be replicated...

 

[zxeon]

I can confirm that division on 2 freezes IC' fthrow and utilt, Charizard's upb, and Marth's fsmash.

I tested substraction on 03 (3) and it doesn't freeze any of those attacks. 3 for subtraction os probably a good start for people to test on though. I'm gonna move onto 4 and 5 and see how that turns out.

The only problem I have with subtracting frames is that some attacks might end up with no frames of hitlag.

 

[Revven]

I already stated before that I have no issues whatsoever with the shieldstun beta 5 code.

It works flawlessly.

The glitch is probably to due another code having a poor interaction with the new shieldstun code.

So instead of ragging on the perfectly fine (and far superior) new shieldstun code, we should find out which code in Falco400's codeset is having the issues with the new shieldstun.

Here is his codeset, according to his Youtube video:
No ASL
ALC
Hitstun 10%
Fallspeed 1.1
Lagless ledges
25% decay
1 frame buffering
Crouch Canceling
Dash Dancing
Shieldstun 3/2


EDIT: From my own codeset, the ALC, Hitstun 10%, and 1 Frame Buffer are not the culprits, because I used them and I never came across any issues.

My code set is basically the same as the new one Kupo posted earlier, minus the Pause camera and overlapping stage pieces.

 

[kupo15]

I can confirm that division on 2 freezes IC' fthrow and utilt, Charizard's upb, and Marth's fsmash.

I tested substraction on 03 (3) and it doesn't freeze any of those attacks. 3 for subtraction os probably a good start for people to test on though. I'm gonna move onto 4 and 5 and see how that turns out.

is it the tippered fsmash? Does wolfs ftilt freeze?

 

[Tornadith]

With Brawl+, I've been looking at some videos and I have something to say about the frozen moving stages.

Some of them could be neutral.

Yes. It's true. Without the moving, it actually could become a neutral stage. Take WarioWare for example. Nothing to hinder attacks, no walk off edges...nothing!

Might wanna look into this.

 

[WeirdoZ Inc.]

I tested subtract hitlag on 04 and multihit attacks, except for Pikachu's dsmash, are hitlag free. So it would seem that most multihit attacks have exactly 4 frames of hitlag, since on 3 there was still a little bit.

So for people who want reduced hitlag instead of none at all. I recommend the subtract code set to 3 frames (03).

HitLag Modifier(Subtraction): Phantom Wings (5 lines)
C2771EC0 00000004
39C00003 7C047000
4081000C 7C8E2050
48000008 38800001
90830010 00000000

I haven't tested every single attack, so I can't guarantee that no moves freeze.

Edit: Oops, I've just noticed that I said I confirmed Marth's fsmash freezes on division, I meant forward special, as someone said before i confirmed. The tipper does not freeze.

Also @kupo, Wolf's ftilt does not freeze on division@2 or any subtraction I've tested.

 

[GameSystem]

Wasn't the original purpose of the hitlag codes to remove "fake" hitlag where you can't input DI? I don't think lowering the amount of all hitlag will make things better. It's too big a nerf for the defensive game since you can't escape combos as easily.

 

[Alopex]

@Falco400

Yeah, the fact that it only happened in one match out of many, and the fact that not even you were able to replicate it, makes this a really weird glitch.

I say we continue all using the new shieldstun code. If it ever happens again to anyone, then report it. It's the only way we'll be able to gauge how often this glitch occurs. It might never occur again if we're lucky.

Then again, Zxeon and I have concluded that the second value of the code isn't doing anything, and kupo is going to ask spunit about it, so it's possible there will be another shieldstun code coming soon anyway.

 

[Team Giza]

Yes. It's true. Without the moving, it actually could become a neutral stage. Take WarioWare for example. Nothing to hinder attacks, no walk off edges...nothing!

Might wanna look into this.

You are weeks behind. We have already even discussed reversing some of the stages movement so they would be neutral and still have moving backgrounds.

 

[kupo15]

I tested subtract hitlag on 04 and multihit attacks, except for Pikachu's dsmash, are hitlag free. So it would seem that most multihit attacks have exactly 4 frames of hitlag, since on 3 there was still a little bit.

So for people who want reduced hitlag instead of none at all. I recommend the subtract code set to 3 frames (03).

HitLag Modifier(Subtraction): Phantom Wings (5 lines)
C2771EC0 00000004
39C00003 7C047000
4081000C 7C8E2050
48000008 38800001
90830010 00000000

I haven't tested every single attack, so I can't guarantee that no moves freeze.

i think 3 is too much. 2 should be sufficient

Wasn't the original purpose of the hitlag codes to remove "fake" hitlag where you can't input DI? I don't think lowering the amount of all hitlag will make things better. It's too big a nerf for the defensive game since you can't escape combos as easily.

No this code is needed to put the skill back into DI. If you use this code, you MUST lower hitstun.

also

THIS CODE IS HALF COMPLETE!!!!!! DON'T BASE YOUR OPINIONS OFF OF THIS CODE YET UNTIL WE CAN GET THE HITLAG TO AFFECT THE PERSON BEING ATTACKED!!!

 

[WeirdoZ Inc.]

What do you mean affecting the person being attacked? Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't reducing hitlag affecting the attackee?

Also, 2 frames probably won't be enough. Sure it's halving the hitlag for multihit attacks, but it'll be barely noticable in strong attacks. I'll test it though, see what we get.

 

[kupo15]

What do you mean affecting the person being attacked? Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't reducing hitlag affecting the attackee?

Also, 2 frames probably won't be enough. Sure it's halving the hitlag for multihit attacks, but it'll be barely noticable in strong attacks. I'll test it though, see what we get.

I believe hitlag the moment in time where SDI is possible where both players are frozen in time then the attack continues and the attacks goes flying. Right now we have the attacker at a speed up hitlag while the attacked is at the normal hitlag when he should be at the same hitlag as the attacker

And two frames for what? Multihits? That should be fine and the strong hits should be noticeable esp the knee

 

[Alopex]

You know, lowering hitstun to make combos more escapable in order to make up for less hitlag making DI'ing harder seems like poor logic to me.

We put the skill back into DI, but nerf combo skills by reducing combo potential with reduced hitstun?

Isn't comboing more fun? Shouldn't we be trying to preserve that insead of "DI skill"?

Weren't we going to place more emphasis on Brawl+ combos being dependent on predicting your opponent's DI? Isn't out-predicting your opponent the fun part about being on the receiving end of a combo? Aren't we just nerfing that push-and-pull aspect by making BOTH things harder (DI'ing and combo'ing)?

It's just not making sense to me.