Colorado Smash - MVG Presents: REVELATION 2 - MIDWEST NATIONAL! MVG QUALIFIER! May 16-17

[Ken Neth]

Pessimistic or not, it's still his worst matchup. It's considered a really bad match up for snake by both pikas and snakes. I agree that there are a lot of pessimistic snake mains though.

 

[Steam]

well yeah. but nothing is unwinnable with snake... top tier players just not used to having bad matchups :L

 

[#HBC | J]

Snake just seems to be doing worse and worse as the months go by in Competitive brawl. I mean he is still one of the best characters but still nontheless.

 

[Rizen]

well yeah. but nothing is unwinnable with snake... top tier players just not used to having bad matchups :L

^This.
10chars.

 

[Sunnysunny]

like some think the lucario matchup is close to even... lol.

I've heard that atleast 3 times in the past 2 months. lol.

Snakes need to step there **** up and get serious. He really doesn't HAVE to be this low on the list.

 

[AeroLink_the_SoulMaster]

Texas Crusade Series 5 on November 17th! It would be great if you guys could make it out to this: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=328354

 

[Sinister Slush]

If CO actually went to this, I'd literally, in all my power, try and go to this tournament.

 

[AeroLink_the_SoulMaster]

You hear that guys? Sinister would do his best to attend if you guys did the same. Please come.

 

[dettadeus]

That's...

the week before thanksgiving break.

There go my chances of going.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Aero, bro, if you want us to go so bad, come to one of our events to show you really care

 

[AeroLink_the_SoulMaster]

Ok. Let me know when is you're next big tournament.

 

[Z'zgashi]

April 23rd, 2047, be there.

 

[deepseadiva]

Condensed PR:

 

[Ken Neth]

Is MK banned at all your tournaments?

 

[Steam]

Yes.

until this weekend where soapy is having a MK legal tourney because he's never had success without him.

:T

 

[Z'zgashi]

Well if UT ever goes to one of your tournaments, he better be allowed.

And this is coming from someone who never even uses MK.

 

[Sunnysunny]

I wouldn't mind if he was legal. As long as there was still a little diversity.

Its nice to look at the PR chart and see a ROBs, Lucass and Luigis ranked up there. Never knew Bee's was ranked that high.

 

[Ken Neth]

MK is legal here, and we only have one MK in the top ten. And he's like 7th or something.

 

[Z'zgashi]

2, Mars and Yaz.

 

[deepseadiva]

Adventure Time theme!

 

[Ken Neth]

Mars' Sheik is a lot better than his MK so I don't count that as anything more than a secondary. Even counting him though, that's not a lot. Does CO have a lot of MK's?

 

[Steam]

Fishbait, Steam, DTL, Level-0, Soapy that either are PR or were. For a long period of time MK was usually winning the tournies.

 

[Z'zgashi]

^ lol at refering to yourself in third person

And I dont see the problem.

Also the last 2 tournaments Ive been to, Mars has gone 100% MK. Lol.

 

[Steam]

well I probably wouldn't stick around in the scene long if MK was legalized. so I enjoy the ban.

 

[Rizen]

/hate MK
/don't want to talk about it here

 

[deepseadiva]

Refresh me if I'm wrong, but no one ever planked here. No one ever did extreme timing out.

He's banned because he's a good character? That's so many kinds of dumb. I've never been able to get over that. Whatever, I love party games and seeing artificially character-filled PRs as well.

 

[Z'zgashi]

MK WITH planking and timing out isnt ban worthy, so MK WITHOUT planking and timing out is DEFINITELY not ban worthy. You guys need to just stop being butt hurt, realized that every game will have a best character, and stop whining about how hes so good. Honestly, MK isnt much better than ICs, and he also doesnt have any guaranteed instant death combo off just a grab, so I dont see how you can ban a character that doesnt have anything insta win about him when there are characters in this game that DO have 0-deaths and infinites. And just look at every large scale tournament ever, each one has had at least half of top 8 be a non MK player. Sure, MK wins the most, does the best, etc, BUT HES THE BEST CHARACTER IN THE GAME, OF COURSE HE'LL DO THE BEST AND WIN THE MOST, and if you cant accept that he'll be used most or do the best, then honestly you just shouldnt play games competitively in general. No matter which game you play, some characters will be better than others, and at high level the best characters will be used the most and do the best, deal with it.

 

[Rizen]

^Don't give that scrub explanation like people can't deal with MK.

MK's banned because he wrecks the CP system. Speaking competitively, it's stupid to play any character other than MK. All theses rules like ledge grab limits, no infinite cape and stage bans (Norfair/Brin/RC/Cornairia [I agree with this one]) were made soley to keep MK viable or at lease primarily because MK. These vary by region, of course.
So finally people said 'we're losing the variety of competitive play and changing game mechanics just to keep one character who is the best undisputed since brawl began? Let's just ban MK.'
And frankly it balanced the game more than accommodating to keep MK in. Look at the last WHOBO results (a big MK banned tourney) http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=326126&highlight=Whobo

Spoiler

1: Esam==/
2: Ally==////
3: Gnes==/
4: Atomsk==/
5: Ryo==
5: Will==
7: Shaky==
7: NickRiddle==
9: Kain==
9: Reflex==
9: Ultimate Razer==
9: Seibrik==/
13: Trela==
13: Illmatic==
13: Pj==
13: Mvd==
17: Pwii==/
17: McPeePants==
17: Inui==/
17: Player 1==
17: Kismet==
17: YbM==
17: Mjg==
17: Dojo==
25: Jerm==
25: Denti==
25: Fliphop==
25: Espy==
25: MikeRay==
25: Tesh==
25: DRN==
25: Zekey==

5th Ike, DK. 7th Ness. 9th PT... There's a lot more diversity.

 

[deepseadiva]

We're talking about Colorado.

None of that ever showed up here. He has always been played legitimately. We banned him preemptively. I don't even want to say "we". Ran banned him, and everyone was like "k".

Kind of embarrassing actually.

 

[Z'zgashi]

The IDC glitch is banned cuz its a game breaking GLITCH, and it just happened to be on the best character. If Ganon had IDC, it'd be banned.

Personally, I think RC/Brinstar shouldnt be banned. Norfair (as much as I like it) and Corneria, I do, but MK isnt the reason. As for the ledge grabs, those are for every character, not just MK. Sure, MK is the best at planking, but lots other characters can plank to, hell, I plank with Yoshi and Bowser more than probably anyone else in my state. LGLs were made to stop the game from evolving into a ledge camp fest, not to nerf MK.

As for the CP system, MK doesnt ruin it, no matter which stage you go to, there are characters that can beat him on it, and this has been proven time and time again.

And people CAN deal with MK, I dont see how you dont understand it. Name ONE instance EVER in the history of Smash where a National was completely dominated by MK to the point of MK taking all of top 8. MK is the best, and he does most things better than every other character, but he isnt invincible by any means, and unless the character completely invalidates all the other characters (hell, ICs and D3 invalidate more characters than MK), he shouldnt be banned.

 

[Rizen]

We're talking about Colorado.

None of that ever showed up here. He has always been played legitimately. We banned him preemptively. I don't even want to say "we". Ran banned him, and everyone was like "k".

Kind of embarrassing actually.

Unity rules banned MK; Ran went by those http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=301033 and everyone said "k". And nothing ever happens in CO

The IDC glitch is banned cuz its a game breaking GLITCH that just happened to be on the best character. If Ganon had IDC, it'd be banned.

Personally, I think RC/Brinstar shouldnt be banned. Norfair (as much as I like it) and Corneria, I do, but MK isnt the reason. As for the ledge grabs, those are for every character, not just MK. Sure, MK is the best at planking, but lots other characters can plank to, hell, I plank with Yoshi and Bowser more than probably anyone else in my state. LGLs were made to stop the game from evolving into a ledge camp fest, not to nerf MK.

As for the CP system, MK doesnt ruin it, no matter which stage you go to, there are characters that can beat him on it, and this has been proven time and time again.

And people CAN deal with MK, I dont see how you dont understand it. Name ONE instance EVER in the history of Smash where a National was completely dominated by MK to the point of MK taking all of top 8. MK is the best, and he does most things better than every other character, but he isnt invincible by any means, and unless the character completely invalidates all the other characters (hell, ICs and D3 invalidate more characters than MK), he shouldnt be banned.

MK was the only reason those stages were banned. And learn to read

^Don't give that scrub explanation like people can't deal with MK.

You're argument was that WE in CO can't deal with MK which was ****ing stupid. Like most pro MK arguments you treat the opponents like a bunch of scrubs and ignore all facts and reason. If you don't like it then stay in Utah but don't BS us here.

 

[Ken Neth]

Sure, the results of Whobo were character varied, but do you realize the caliber of those players? You have the best (or very close to it) Snake, IC's, Pikachu, DK, Diddy, Ike, DDD, Ness, ZSS, Wolf, PT, Lucario and Peach in the nation all in one tourney, of course they are going to place well. Most players there placed well because they are a top caliber player, not because MK wasn't there. The only thing that MK would have changed was top caliber players using MK would have been mixed in those results with them. That's not a valid excuse for an MK ban.

I side with ZZ and Meno, MK shouldn't be banned. Especially in states like ours where MK isn't being pushed to his limits. But I'm not gonna debate it or tell you what to do, cause it's your state. You do what you want.

 

[Z'zgashi]

You're argument was that WE in CO can't deal with MK which was ****ing stupid. Like most pro MK arguments you treat the opponents like a bunch of scrubs and ignore all facts and reason. If you don't like it then stay in Utah but don't BS us here.

Lol, my argument wasnt that you guys cant deal with MK, never did I ONCE say you couldnt, in fact, I said MK COULD be dealt with AT LEAST 3 times. My argument was that MK IS BEATABLE and that he isnt dominant to a point where he should be banned.

 

[Rizen]

Sure, the results of Whobo were character varied, but do you realize the caliber of those players? You have the best (or very close to it) Snake, IC's, Pikachu, DK, Diddy, Ike, DDD, Ness, ZSS, Wolf, PT, Lucario and Peach in the nation all in one tourney, of course they are going to place well. Most players there placed well because they are a top caliber player, not because MK wasn't there. The only thing that MK would have changed was top caliber players using MK would have been mixed in those results with them. That's not a valid excuse for an MK ban.

I side with ZZ and Meno, MK shouldn't be banned. Especially in states like ours where MK isn't being pushed to his limits. But I'm not gonna debate it or tell you what to do, cause it's your state. You do what you want.

This is why I hate talking about MK. You missed the point with stages/rules and act like those players weren't in MK legal tourneys too. Meno didn't decide yet.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=317124

Alright, reboot of the old Success and Popularity thread, let's go!

In this thread, we'll be keeping track of how much money is won by each character in the game, and how often each character is used in tournament gameplay! We'll be focusing mainly on tournaments that have Meta Knight banned for this year's data collection, but we'll still continue to pay attention to MK Legal Tournaments.

By popular request, this data doesn't include the first weekend of January - the weekend of Apex.

How to read the charts:
- "Full Split" indicates that, if a player was mentioned as winning money with more than one character, the player's winnings will be evenly distributed among his or her characters.
- "No Split" indicates that, if a player was mentioned as winning money with more than one character, the player's winnings will NOT be evenly distributed among his or her characters.
- "Average" is the average of "Full Split" and "No Split."

MK Banned Tournaments

MK Legal Tournaments

If, for some reason you cannot view the images properly, try Right Clicking them and hitting "View Image," and it'll make them show up in their original size, although Smashboard's coding allows users to view images at full size by simply clicking on them nowadays.

MK banned top tiers are splitting the winnings relatively evenly. MK legal, he has 36%.

I hate idiots who think they're better than other people (with no grounding) and try to wreck the system for everyone. Stop bashing CO players and learn what you're talking about.

 

[deepseadiva]

Unity rules banned MK; Ran went by those http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=301033 and everyone said "k". And nothing ever happens in CO

Ran was the Unity committee. lol

Colorado never had an MK problem. He starting winning tournaments once people got developed with him (HOW STRANGE), but there was never any planking, or timing out, or general dooms-day jankiness. He got his wins fair and square (correct me if I'm wrong). He was banned on hype and hype alone.

I'm neither for or against a universal MK ban - but I am for banning only AFTER the problem has been documented IN PERSON, HERE, IN CO. cool graphs though

Honestly, it hurt our competitive integrity the way we let others decide our rulesets for us.

 

[Rizen]

Ran was the Unity committee. lol

Colorado never had an MK problem. He starting winning tournaments once people got developed with him (HOW STRANGE), but there was never any planking, or timing out, or general dooms-day jankiness. He got his wins fair and square (correct me if I'm wrong). He was banned on hype and hype alone.

I'm neither for or against a universal MK ban - but I am for banning only AFTER the problem has been documented IN PERSON, HERE, IN CO. cool graphs though

Honestly, it hurt our competitive integrity the way we let others decide our rulesets for us.

Ran was in the committee. We had a huge drought then he moved from LA, found a venue and started the scene again. ...and vanished off the face of the Earth lol. People agreed with Ran and many still do.

Utah's trying to do just that: decide the rules for us.
Plus MK debates always have some jerk saying you're a scrub for not liking MK and they ignore all reasoning. Losing the best stages to that logic- from people who don't live here p***es me off :/

 

[deepseadiva]

Utah's just talking with us, lol.

The only people who decide CO ruleset's are CO TOs. If they want to come over here and host tournaments, all the power to them. Ran did just that. His reasoning, at the time, was "Unity".

Now that that's outdated - remaking a ruleset on our own, I only ask for evidence as to why MK should be banned here. So far I've yet to see any.

We talk about character and stage diversity, and being friendly to newcomers. Those are fine reasons to ban him, I say! But those are based around the politics of Smash, and we need to be clear as such.

We ban him because we don't like him, not because he's proven to be broken. We must be entirely clear on that point.

 

[Rizen]

Utah's just talking with us, lol.

The only people who decide CO ruleset's are CO TOs. If they want to come over here and host tournaments, all the power to them. Ran did just that. His reasoning, at the time, was "Unity".

Now that that's outdated - remaking a ruleset on our own, I only ask for evidence as to why MK should be banned here. So far I've yet to see any.

We talk about character and stage diversity, and being friendly to newcomers. Those are fine reasons to ban him, I say! But those are based around the politics of Smash, and we need to be clear as such.

We ban him because we don't like him, not because he's proven to be broken. We must be entirely clear on that point.

I think we're coming from the same place about CO making our own rules.

CO's been mostly dead for years so we haven't developed much ourselves. I don't like how Norfair was banned (from MK's untouchable 'V' glide planking) and don't want to lose Brin and RC. Stages don't come back . Why Oli and ICs are so high is partially from more neutral stage lists. It's affecting everyone.

On the AiB ladder I've had G/ ott/ /en CP MK after I picked Brin on game 3, win and say I might have won on BF but never pick Brin because someone can CP MK and always win there. This was when I used G&W and he's mean on Brin.
I actually like the MK MU but not at the expense of Brin/Norfair/RC.

_________________________________________________________________________________________
Edit:
I guess you're right about Utah just wanting to talk. I've had bad MK ban experiences and started in a bad mood. So sorry for getting carried away; I reacted meaner than I should have.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Rizen, I WAS ALSO IN THE COMMITTEE and I completely disagree with banning him. Also, like I said before, MK winning the most is normal, I dont see why saying 'he has 36% of winnings' changes anything I said. There is still another 64% which means obv other characters are somehow getting past MK at the money making points of tournaments.

And also, im not bashing anyone lol. The closest thing to bashing anyone in CO Ive ever done is making fun of/pestering Steam on occasion, but never once have I bashed even him.

 

[Rizen]

A lot of them go like this:

I literally haven't been reading any of your posts, because i'm not debating this with you.

I'm ignoring you and saying get better.

I have never been debating anything, because I don't believe there's anything to debate. Everybody ALREADY KNOWS MK is dumb (Like I've said before)

I'm not arguing stupid **** that will get me nowhere, i'm actually trying to progress kthanks

You can keep quoting every point I make like you have been because you're arguing with nobody, because i'm not arguing back, i'm just TELLING you get better, and get over it

you don't have to listen to me, but there's a reason even with your data and graphs nobody (at least i'm not) listening to you. Because people are beating MK despite him being "broken" or (whatever the heck your argument is) with dumb characters.

I'd be down to argue something worth arguing but this isn't worth arguing because at the end of the day someone else will beat an MK and you'll just have the data that tells you, you can't.

It's so ironic because i'm actually a very statistics factual person but I put my faith in the actual results of people who have gotten better and done it.

^. I hate being told get better by worse people who rely on high tiers at the expense of the CP stages/system.
Even after I post several replays of me beating good MKs. So I assumed it was another one of these *ugh*.
Bad smash states/regions and low tiers have to constantly defend their skills too.

Losing stages still sucks.