Cold Shoulders: Ice Climbers Social Thread

[Iceman]

Ah OK it makes sense if its just a little charge

Yeah so its something you can do in the middle of the stage. I would only do it once in the grab combo. I feel like its better to mixup instead of doing the same thing twice. So after you do the downthrow ice block can you not grab again? Or can popo down throw to nana ice block to popo jab to nana fsmash? I haven't tried it yet but I'm asking because you seem more experienced.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Yes Chesstiger, that answered my question. And the reason it always worked in melee was because pummels and tilts refresh staling. In this game, is it 10 moves and only damage stales?

I was just wondering because some were complaining about the strict timing. Thanks for the thorough replies throughout the thread. Do you olay P:M Icies? I haven't seen you (or that many others...) playing P:M Icies on stream to study. Thanks again

 

[Iceman]

Yeah there aren't many PM Ice Climbers videos. I don't think we have a notable PM Ice Climbers player

 

[Chesstiger2612]

It seems that Ice Block has different hitboxes or at least knockback angles because I can't explain these differences otherwise. I feel like you could always get an Popo up-air at least and in most situations something like up-tilt -> Nana aerial, but regrabs only work on certain parts...

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Yes Chesstiger, that answered my question. And the reason it always worked in melee was because pummels and tilts refresh staling. In this game, is it 10 moves and only damage stales?

I was just wondering because some were complaining about the strict timing. Thanks for the thorough replies throughout the thread. Do you olay P:M Icies? I haven't seen you (or that many others...) playing P:M Icies on stream to study. Thanks again

 

[Chesstiger2612]

I am playing Ice Climbers a bit (MK&Marth main), but I know some stuff about many characters because I approach the game quite analytical. You probably haven't seen me because I'm not in an area where much PM is played, and I am still in the lab because I am not on the level I want to have yet.
Experience etc. is a bit behind because I got the game a bit late, dued to PAL complications. Basically, I am thinking about this game for more than a year but playing for like 5 months

 

[TheGravyTrain]

That's cool. I am kinda in the same boat. Not willing to commit to traveling (no local scene that I know of) and am currently working on getting WiFi so I can gain experience that way. In the meantime I am taking your approach and just watching, thinking, and learning that way. That way at least if I am bad I can be good for something...

 

[Chesstiger2612]

One advice I could give is to consider options good against options COMs won't make specifically and practice them even if you won't use them against COMs but to be prepared for a human opponent. Also neutral game, adapting and tournament mindset fall a bit short if you don't play human players and don't practice them. Same goes for option coverage on combos because the AI's DI is often kinda questionable.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

I am planning on having WiFi ready by fall ish, so right now I am mainly working on teach skill of characters that are constantly changing (until I get real competition, I get bored of my current main after about 2 weeks). Thanks for the advice though. In another thread I was talking about this. I believe this is what PPMD calls Shadowboxing. I hear people go on autopilot a lot and its bad. I have already noticed I let certain games go too long because I don't kill them at kill percents (on small stages I combo till 130 even though I could just up smash at 70...

 

[Iceman]

All I can say about the popo down-throw to nana ice block is that it is wacky. You can do alot of interesting stuff, but its hard to pinpoint the best option.

 

[Foxy K]

All I can say about the popo down-throw to nana ice block is that it is wacky. You can do alot of interesting stuff, but its hard to pinpoint the best option.

I'm finding that out first hand. I'm trying to do ChessTiger's dthrow->ice block->pivot utilt->fair->regrab, but I can't figure out the dthrow iceblock timing that will let me land the pivot utilt.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

With just some preliminary goes at it, the first 3 times I got the main 3 outcomes... Just shows how weird and janky Icie throw game will be without elegant infinites...

 

[Chesstiger2612]

I can test a bit more to be able to describe it, right now I'm doing it pretty intuitively (although I also mess up sometimes lol)

 

[Iceman]

I mean I'm trying alot of my own experiments. I'll let you know more about them later.

 

[Foxy K]

I just don't understand how the ice block needs to connect to the land the utilt. Do they need to bounce onto the top of the ice block? Do I need to throw them INTO the back of the iceblock? The only thing that seemed to keep them fairly close was throwing into the back of the ice block, but I couldn't time it right, and the block would kind of make the grab release, which didn't allow for followups.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

No it is just that they could do something otherwise because hitstun ended and the little bit of time you get from it makes it easier.
It is for timing-, not for positioning- or damage-reasons

 

[Youngster Joey]

how high would you say the ic's learning curve is? every time i try to use them i give up after the first game because idk what im doing

 

[Iceman]

how high would you say the ic's learning curve is? every time i try to use them i give up after the first game because idk what im doing

It is pretty damn high. I support the idea that they are the hardest character in the game.

 

[Foxy K]

No it is just that they could do something otherwise because hitstun ended and the little bit of time you get from it makes it easier.
It is for timing-, not for positioning- or damage-reasons

I don't understand what you're saying here.

sorry to be a pest lol

 

[TheGravyTrain]

how high would you say the ic's learning curve is? every time i try to use them i give up after the first game because idk what im doing

I find that no one specific tech gives you too much trouble, but having the awareness when to use each individual tech is the difficult part. Most desyncs are really easy (except pivot...). In comparison to, say, fox, where everything you do is extremely tight in execution. To put it bluntly, compare waveshines to desync combos. Waveshining is just a lot of repetitive (boring) practice. Desync comboes are just learning your options to continue a desync. In other words, I enjoy messing around with them because of the freedom of options you have, vs the very specific tech skill you need as the fox example. Hope that helped.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

I don't understand what you're saying here.

sorry to be a pest lol

No problem, I use the ice block because only Nana goes in an animation and Popo can move while the opponent still gets a bit of hitlag & -stun so he can't get out as easily. I am not using Ice Block because I want its trajectory or knockback, but because of the little bit of interruptive hitstun (which can also catch their jump which would be optimal).

@ Youngster Joey
I actually think you can only determine the easiest/hardest character for each individual skill level. A character might have a high learning curve until you master something extremely important and the next steps might be really easy (like with Falco when you master pillaring and waveshining).
When you master desyncs and grab combos you have reached quite a good level, but from then on the Ice Climbers learning curve gets harder again because sometimes you need to control them as two separate characters and it requires both technical precision, as well as a more complex thinking process and some form of multi-tasking.
From a perspective as technical character I would see them on rank 6 after spacies, Lucas and Lucario. They are other categories, like difficulty in precision, patience, creativity etc. but overall I would say ICs are in the hardest 20% of the game.
Don't get scared by it though, some of it just appears hard right now because the IC metagame is not as advanced yet.

 

[Foxy K]

No problem, I use the ice block because only Nana goes in an animation and Popo can move while the opponent still gets a bit of hitlag & -stun so he can't get out as easily. I am not using Ice Block because I want its trajectory or knockback, but because of the little bit of interruptive hitstun (which can also catch their jump which would be optimal).

Ok, I see. I may try basically the same sequence, just with blizzard at first since that may be easier to line up.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Blizzard is easier SDI-able and also with DI only they can get out and away so it has some problems, but it might be successful if you do a full length WD instead of the initial dash with Popo then before you hit with up-tilt /sth. else

 

[Iceman]

So I have a question. What is everyone's strategy with the Ice Climbers? I recently wrote down my playstyle with the Ice Climbers and it really helped me improve my Climbers. So what keywords would you use to describe your IC's playstyle?

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Prophylactic, desync-intensive, risk-avoiding

 

[Iceman]

Defensive, Bait and Punish, Fast, Cerebral

 

[Player-3]

are they any ICs videos to give me a general idea on how to play these characters i like them alot and thinking about picking them up as a secondary for a few matchups i dont like, but they seem different from melee ics so i cant just play them like those

 

[TheGravyTrain]

The way I play Ice Climbers (though I am in no way a good example, I just mess around with them in training mode since I can't make it to a tourney yet) is I try to make an impenetrable wall. Desynced iceblocks, blizzards, fair spacing, and the occasional squall thrown in the mix. To describe that, I would say: Defensive, patient, with heavy punishes.

 

[Iceman]

are they any ICs videos to give me a general idea on how to play these characters i like them alot and thinking about picking them up as a secondary for a few matchups i dont like, but they seem different from melee ics so i cant just play them like those

There aren't to many notable IC climbers players. We are all still figuring out the character

 

[Player-3]

There aren't to many notable IC climbers players. We are all still figuring out the character

alright ill work on it as a side then and try to find stuff, wobbling/infinite grabs arent (supposed to be) possible right? so its not worth trying to learn them here, just the desync stuff?

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Just a quick notice, heavy grab combos still work. It seems one can still control Nana's throw direction if you input the direction on the first actionable frame.
In short: You can do Melee grab combos minus wobbling if you have decent tech skill

 

[Iceman]

alright ill work on it as a side then and try to find stuff, wobbling/infinite grabs arent (supposed to be) possible right? so its not worth trying to learn them here, just the desync stuff?

Grab combos are still possible. Handoffs and things like that are still possible.

 

[Iceman]

Just a quick notice, heavy grab combos still work. It seems one can still control Nana's throw direction if you input the direction on the first actionable frame.
In short: You can do Melee grab combos minus wobbling if you have decent tech skill

Wait can you explain this some more please? Are you saying that you can control Nana's throws in the middle of the stage?

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Not exactly sure but I think on the first frame Nana can act she does the autothrow (up-throw or f-throw at the ledge). If you input an other direction on that exact frame Nana will do this throw, so you can control Nana's throws even if it is harder. Gotta practice
I pulled off Nana d-throw three times in a row so it has to be possible, my explanation might be wrong though.

I think this might be a big find.

 

[Iceman]

Not exactly sure but I think on the first frame Nana can act she does the autothrow (up-throw or f-throw at the ledge). If you input an other direction on that exact frame Nana will do this throw, so you can control Nana's throws even if it is harder. Gotta practice
I pulled off Nana d-throw three times in a row so it has to be possible, my explanation might be wrong though.

I think this might be a big find.

So can you explain the timing. So the second Nana grabs the opponent I have to input a direction for her?

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Trying it out is easiest, but here is the hard data:
Standing grab has 30 frames of animation, Dash grab 40.
You would have to input on the 31st frame after pressing grab for standing grab or on the 41st for dash grab. It is easiest to react to Nana getting a grab since that is on frame 7, so 24 / 34 frames after this.
6 frames of Nana delay don't matter in that calculation because Nana does both the grab and the throw

 

[Iceman]

So I basically need to input it immediately

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Yes, you want to input ASAP because otherwise the autoinput up-throw is there first.

 

[Iceman]

Ok I'll give it a try. This sounds pretty significant. What were the rules surrounding handoffs? Isn't it easier to mash out after each handoff?

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Don't think so... And even if mashout gets easier: Always d-throw on first actionable frame and you are fine.
Well if you do a grab with both climbers (so just grab without being desynced), Nana also performs a grab so you have to wait until she is out of her animation to regrab with her leaving a big window for a mashout. Once you get the handoff going, it shouldn't be aproblem because they are desynced.
My solution would be to go for a Popo d-throw ->Popo d-throw (Nana desyncs with a WD) -> Handoffs at low %s
or
waiting long enough to Nana to be out of the animation at higher %s after the Popo grab

There might be a window inbetween where you can't really start handoffs, then I would do d-throw -> Ice Block combos.

Also on the Ice Block topic I will write about it soon