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Cold Shoulders: Ice Climbers Social Thread

Hylian

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Clarification: I'm not saying every Fox MU is 60-40 or better in Fox's favor. I'm saying that there are no MUs that Fox loses worse than 60-40. I definitely think He has losing MUs, just not as bad as most characters.
\

Ah okay, my bad for misinterpreting that. I agree.
 

Phresh123

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Hardest MUs:

Peach, TL, Zelda, Samus, Ivy.
(TBH Ivy is not THAT difficult just annoying in terms of spacing)

Other than that we go even or were winning IMO. Reason I say this is because I watch many IC players go against characters I do well against and get bodied. The way people are playing the matchups are a common reason why many feel the MU spread sucks. Clearly the styles we all have are different, and that comes with learning the matchups and developing your own playstyle with ICs.

What may be a hard MU for you isin't necessarly hard for me. For instance, I didn't add Mewtwo since I play the best M2 in PM (Frozen) all the time, and on paper that MU is like 70:30 but when played it feels like 50:50 to me.
 
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Volume AF

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Had two different people rage quit on me tonight because of "bull**** handoffs", "chaingrabs shouldn't do this much damage wtf", and " they took out wobbling, you can't keep me stuck for so long, this is stupid ".

I'm taking it as a sign of progress. I want people to be just as afraid and pissed at sick swaggy IC stuff in PM as they already are at Melee wobbling. It's not fun to have people be pissed at me in Melee because wobbling is actually really dumb. I'll continue to do it, but it's a stupid mechanic.
Lol I love when this happens at OoC tourneys. Most people just look at you weird when you pick ICs and then proceed to get rekt by chain grabs they don't know how to DI, but lately I've been receiving compliments on the hard work I put into ICs and the combos I've been doing to keep the match interesting. It makes me happy when people see my character in a better light when I'm not chai grabbing them personally lol
 

FirewaterDM

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Hardest MUs:

Peach, TL, Zelda, Samus, Ivy.
(TBH Ivy is not THAT difficult just annoying in terms of spacing)

Other than that we go even or were winning IMO. Reason I say this is because I watch many IC players go against characters I do well against and get bodied. The way people are playing the matchups are a common reason why many feel the MU spread sucks. Clearly the styles we all have are different, and that comes with learning the matchups and developing your own playstyle with ICs.

What may be a hard MU for you isin't necessarly hard for me. For instance, I didn't add Mewtwo since I play the best M2 in PM (Frozen) all the time, and on paper that MU is like 70:30 but when played it feels like 50:50 to me.
I definitely can see this being the issue. I don't think there's a "perfect" way to play IC's, or better yet the most effective, and while one playstyle works for one person, it could be incredibly difficult for others to emulate or even find something that works. At the same time, the only thing that gets me, because at least in my eyes, it just seems like without the practice, some MU's aren't as awful as they should be in theory, I just feel like there are certain limitations based on design that makes certain MU's "unwinnable" if the other player does them optimally.

Are there MU's that in theory IC's lose hard- absolutely. At one point I've thought the IC's either went even with or lost to a good 30 characters. Some of those i'm pretty sure I just don't know the MU at all. Others are because I'm not good with dealing with them (hi Marth). Are there matchups where i'll try it and if the other player doesn't know it i'll give it a shot, yes. But there are others who if the matchup is played optimally I truly believe are 9-1's or worse for us. Doesn't stop you, or the rest of us from just being better than the other per, but at this point I feel as though a mix of these atrocious matchups + skill limits is what dooms IC's to being a mid-tier character at best. Unless you want to ruin the character's design there isn't really a way to fix it, but just to mitigate it.

though out of those listed, I don't hate the Ivy MU, and even Mewtwo for that matter, and I'm getting used to Samus (Samus is still absolutely dumb but dealing with missiles is a place where the new nana AI is a godsend.)

Don't have any good TL practice because the only one that i've seen/played friendlies with isn't good (but I can see how that MU is awful), but i'm 100% positive that if played optimally Peach is a 9-1 or 10-0 matchup in PM. I just can't see or figure out how the matchup got supposedly easier in PM, or at least how does it work at high level play other than nana is less stupid and belay kills at 80ish dependent on stage. It's still hard as hell to get in or actually do things to her.
 

Kerfuffle

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So played a few games with Dirtboy. Can say that Squirtle is not easy. Not sure on how bad it is for sure but you just have to completely play around everything he has. Bubble is sooooo good against us, if you screw up the tech, Nana is dead. Dsmash seperates, triple fair, bye Nana. I'll get some more info on the MU when I see him either today or sometime this week. Screw squirtle
 

Hylian

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There are certainly no 9-1 matches for IC's lmao. The worst they lose to a character is probably 7-3.

Also I've played some of the best squirtles and whooped them, I think it's fine for IC's.
 

ilysm

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I think Squirtle is just one of those matchups you want to play mostly synced because desyncs only give him an opportunity to isolate and kill Nana more quickly. Outside of that I just tend to move around and space normals and I do okay. I'm unfamiliar with the matchup; it's very odd. But this is probably best left to the MU discussion thread.
 
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Sharkz

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Got a question for anyone, but I've seen @Phresh use it better than anyone. I'm having a lot of trouble timing the fthrow handoff. If I get it, Nana flys too far ahead to get the regrab. If I try to make her not go so far, she doesn't move at all. I need to make sure I improve my handoff edge range with this.

Same goes fir fthrow to Nana pivot grab. Same problem.
 

Hylian

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You need to tilt the control slowly forward, and for the pivot one you need to dash at the right time.
 

Samwisely

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This is what we've got. No more Nana changes, no more asking for buffs. If you weren't hitting the lab already, it's time.

I'd better see every IC here training, optimizing, and making the most out of every tool we have. Everyone who said that ICs were too complex to work on in a game that receives updates, this is what you wanted right?

Let's. Go.
 

ilysm

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As sad as I am about the disbanding of the dev team and the lack of future cosmetic changes and new features, I think this is a great opportunity for character's players to push their meta as far as it will go without the promise of future updates. I've seen lot of people have been saying that it's "been a good run", but the run is far from over yet. I for one am ready to buckle down with this character and this game and this wonderful community.

And to our boards' resident dev team member, Hylian Hylian , I'd like to try and thank you enough for all of the effort and hours and hard work you put in to help make a game that has actually changed my life. That sounds melodramatic but I'm being totally serious. It's been a damn good development. Now I guess it's time for Project M to begin.
 
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Hylian

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Thanks guys, that really means a lot. Sorry it had to end so suddenly. I'm just glad we got the turn around bug fixed haha.
 

Sharkz

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I know a lot of people here started with Brawl IC's and moved onto PM. I feel like I haven't seen a lot of Melee tricks (which are now optimal with the lack of wobbling) implemented into gameplay.

Spacies are my absolute favorite matchups in PM because of all the stylish grab tricks you can do on them. A decently well known way to style against spacies in Melee is grab>Nana charge fsmash>dthrow (they're di'ing in because they don't want to die)>release Nana fsmash & grab with Popo at the same time. This makes the spacie eat an fsmash and stay in Popo's clutches.
Here's a gif of me doing it to a Falco: http://gfycat.com/DesertedDiligentAlleycat
It looks so nasty. I did this a couple times to IPK's Fox in friendlies and the others around me were freaking out. While it's only style in Melee, it's actually optimal in PM. If they realize, they might start di'ing out during dthrow so they can't be regrabbed by Popo.
Gif: http://gfycat.com/CompetentEmbarrassedGermanwirehairedpointer
But this allows earlier fsmash kills (like 60% early). Yay for DI mixups!

Another grab trick (mostly still for style in pm though) is bthrow>nana wavedash back regrab. If you're near the edge of a stage but facing away, this could get you in a handoff situation. You've gotta be quick though. Drunk Sloth was the first to popularize this. He even took a set off of porkchops ending it off with this.
Gif: http://gfycat.com/TallIllEnglishpointer

Something that is widely used in Melee that only started working in 3.6 (I guess because grab release, I could never get it to work in 3.5) is instead of Dthrow>Fsmash, use Uthrow>Fsmash. This sends them in the opposite direction. So now you have a DI mixup on every character. This is probably known by most people here, but I've never seen any PM IC's use it.

One last thing. Be careful of dthrow>usmashing G&W when facing to the right: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iauEHIaGGY

(I was going to say something regarding why dthrow>dair feels so much worse in PM, but it really doesn't matter anymore since the game is completed. Now we get to practice with what we have which makes me soooo happy.)
 
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Hylian

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Yeah, the uthrow thing was because of grab release points that got fixed.
 

ilysm

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I actually tried out Popo bthrow -> Nana WD grab on spacies, and it's definitely still a thing, but I could only ever get it to work at extremely low percents. In Melee it seemed to work for longer. Could be mistaken though. Might be a cool way to get handoffs started if Popo can get there in time.

EDIT: It works just as long in PM, I was just hecking up the WD.
 
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Volume AF

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I know a lot of people here started with Brawl IC's and moved onto PM. I feel like I haven't seen a lot of Melee tricks (which are now optimal with the lack of wobbling) implemented into gameplay.

Spacies are my absolute favorite matchups in PM because of all the stylish grab tricks you can do on them. A decently well known way to style against spacies in Melee is grab>Nana charge fsmash>dthrow (they're di'ing in because they don't want to die)>release Nana fsmash & grab with Popo at the same time. This makes the spacie eat an fsmash and stay in Popo's clutches.
Here's a gif of me doing it to a Falco: http://gfycat.com/DesertedDiligentAlleycat
It looks so nasty. I did this a couple times to IPK's Fox in friendlies and the others around me were freaking out. While it's only style in Melee, it's actually optimal in PM. If they realize, they might start di'ing out during dthrow so they can't be regrabbed by Popo.
Gif: http://gfycat.com/CompetentEmbarrassedGermanwirehairedpointer
But this allows earlier fsmash kills (like 60% early). Yay for DI mixups!

Another grab trick (mostly still for style in pm though) is bthrow>nana wavedash back regrab. If you're near the edge of a stage but facing away, this could get you in a handoff situation. You've gotta be quick though. Drunk Sloth was the first to popularize this. He even took a set off of porkchops ending it off with this.
Gif: http://gfycat.com/TallIllEnglishpointer

Something that is widely used in Melee that only started working in 3.6 (I guess because grab release, I could never get it to work in 3.5) is instead of Dthrow>Fsmash, use Uthrow>Fsmash. This sends them in the opposite direction. So now you have a DI mixup on every character. This is probably known by most people here, but I've never seen any PM IC's use it.

One last thing. Be careful of dthrow>usmashing G&W when facing to the right: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iauEHIaGGY

(I was going to say something regarding why dthrow>dair feels so much worse in PM, but it really doesn't matter anymore since the game is completed. Now we get to practice with what we have which makes me soooo happy.)
So I thought people actually knew about all these things and implemented them, but with this post I noticed not much is seen from all these techs(which I actually use regularly). The most useful one is charging A Fsmash into Uthrow, especially when you're facing away from the ledge. Most people will DI towards the ledge so it is a great option nonetheless. And the one about DThrow > Fsmash > Regrab is also one of my best assets against Spacies. Everyone should try this at least once, cause the damage just racks up tremendously.

I'd also like to share some combos I have figured out, since I haven't seen other ICs do it, or haven't found them.

If you want a flashy kill, get a grab midstage(here's to Sharkz thread on optimizing mid stage), handoff UThrow into Bair. It is such a clean kill setup, and timing it correctly just right after Nana/Popo Uthrow looks insane.

Also, on different weights you can do this sequence on the middle of platform stages(mainly Battlefield, FoD and Yoshi's Story)

Grab > Handoff Uthrow > Waveland on Top platform > Regrab/Usmash/DSmash (I actually performed this in the community combo Video @ 8:35 > http://youtu.be/2-tRab3sd0g)

It's a nice kill option in YS, but on BF is only a good option against heavier characters at higher %'s.

Also on the note of YS and Wario Land, if you're facing away from the ledge within handoff distance, you can do this sequence on DI in (handoff > Waveland to side platform Back > Dsmash). Again just a flashy kill option. It doesn't work on spacies most of the time though, and it's DI dependent

All of this is from me experimenting over these past few weeks, I hope all of us can benefit from these combos/setups



Edit Sharkz Sharkz : more on spacie MU combos cause I also love the style on them.

Dthrow> USmash > Regrab at low %'s

Dthrow > Running Bair > Regrab
Something I picked up on falco and falcon, not really guaranteed but it looks sick.

Also there's the SoPo combo on FF in general

Dash attack > UThrow > Dash Attack > same sequence.

This is more % based stuff too lol
 
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Volume AF

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So uh is anyone down to make a discord ICs group? Better than a Skype imo and it would let us communicate more often and discuss more efficiently.

Also,I would like to know everyone's thoughts on what ranking in tier list you would put ICs.
 

941

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Either the top of low-tier or the bottom of mid-tier.
 

Hylian

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I would put them high tier, somewhere around top 10-15.
 

Phresh123

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So uh is anyone down to make a discord ICs group? Better than a Skype imo and it would let us communicate more often and discuss more efficiently.

Also,I would like to know everyone's thoughts on what ranking in tier list you would put ICs.
Im down for an IC's group I think we should start that like RIGHT now considering the PM disbandment we all need to be labbin' as one. Idk what is best for us to use but I was on Skype with Psi Sig Psi Sig at times and it was dope.
 

Volume AF

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Im down for an IC's group I think we should start that like RIGHT now considering the PM disbandment we all need to be labbin' as one. Idk what is best for us to use but I was on Skype with Psi Sig Psi Sig at times and it was dope.
Well I made a Discord chat for us, all you need to do is download it from the App Store and put in the link I'm about to put when you search for a server It's nice since it has both Call and Text chats separately.

It doesn't expire but I will take it down in the next few days.

https://discord.gg/0gJvvtFa48ArzYNY
 
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Phresh123

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Do you guys have facebook? Post your links here if so I already have a lil IC's chat with a couple of us in it. We can move to other platfroms from there.
 

Space Mercutio

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I think Squirtle is just one of those matchups you want to play mostly synced because desyncs only give him an opportunity to isolate and kill Nana more quickly. Outside of that I just tend to move around and space normals and I do okay. I'm unfamiliar with the matchup; it's very odd. But this is probably best left to the MU discussion thread.
So I'm curious now, what other matchups should I play mostly synced?
(Also, thanks Hylian and the rest of PMDT!)
 

941

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Sonic is probably one of those.

I've decided I'm going to main SoPo and after a few sets of mostly trying to cheese KO's I discovered some interesting things. D-throw > F-air can lead to regrabs on floaties at low %s and B-throw can be used as a DI mixup to combo into B-air in some situations where the opponent is expecting a D-throw and DIs away.
 

ilysm

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Oooh, dthrow -> footstool -> dair -> (jab sometimes) -> regrab is a goofy lil low-% Sopo setup I like to do on floaties. It's probably very stylish, but it also looks pretty stupid, so. Make of it what you will.

Speaking of: in Project M, could Sopo be considered the worst character in the game? He feels really good, and playing as him is lots of fun and definitely doable once Nana is lost, but at the same time I find it difficult to believe he's better than Bowser? What do you lot think?
 
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FirewaterDM

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Now that sopo actually has a not awful recovery he's a lot better. He definitely feels weaker than in Melee, but he has enough tools that he isn't the worst in the game.
 

941

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I think SoPo is probably the worst in the game. I can't really think of a matchup that would be in SoPo's favor, and getting KOs takes a lot of work because You don't have any reliable way to build up percent or combo into a KO move at higher percents. What SoPo does have is good ground mobility and CGs on a lot of the cast, but He still has to rely on gimmicks and reads to win.
 

ilysm

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I wasn't really looking at the tools Sopo has/does not have so much as the fact that off the top of my head I can't think of any character strictly worse than him. I think Sopo does alright vs. Bowser, and in my experience Sopo has some stuff on basically everybody. I think that even if he is comparatively the worst in the game (i.e, there isn't a character he's definitely better than) he does alright (actually I think he does a bit better than in Melee, but of course I'm not factoring in the wider matchup spread that might not play to his strengths as much). Also, I think that speaks to the balance of this game compared to other Smash titles/fighters. I might be a bit biased in my optimism, though, since in general I actually really enjoy playing as Sopo. I think it's quite fun.
 
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941

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The wider MU spread definitely hurts SoPo in PM. In Melee, SoPo has a decent punish game on most of the top tiers, and the mid and low tiers don't have as many options as they do in PM, so SoPo can deal with a lot in Melee. I don't think SoPo has much of a punish game on floaties, and no way to get in on characters with good spacing tools and/or projectiles.

I also think Sopo is quite fun. I enjoy playing as Sopo more than as both ICs :p
 

ilysm

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So I don't know how many people actually know about this, but it exists still. I was fooling around in training mode yesterday when I remembered that in Melee, Popo didn't need to move forward to regrab the fatties (Bowser and DK) after Nana's fthrow, so I tested it out. It works on Dedede and Charizard as well as those two. I can't see it changing too many matchups, but now we body Bowser even harder. Which is good I guess? Poor Bowser mains. I hope Odds's Pikachu is coming along okay.

If there's one thing I've learned about Ice Climbers, it's that until Hylian Hylian says "that's an infinite," it's not an infinite. It seems pretty solid to me but I'll seek confirmation considering 'infinite' is kind of a buzzword around here. The timing is tricky but it's definitely the sort of thing that is possible to get down consistently for tournament play imo. Plus it works on platforms just like any other handoff, so our punish game against fatties is officially stupid. Hooray?

EDIT:

Link in case the Gfy doesn't load.

Handoffs are so fun. It's absolutely mashable, but at higher percents when it's harder to mash out but you still can't reliably KO, it can be an excellent way to set up for a platform handoff. I'm pondering ways to optimize it. When Nana begins her jump up, you can probably definitely press shield+down to simultaneously cause Popo to dthrow and Nana to waveland onto the platform in time to catch the opponent.
 
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