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Cold Shoulders: Ice Climbers Social Thread
- Thread starter Nguz95
- Start date
Volume AF
Smash Cadet
Hi guys, this is my first time posting on Smashboard. I'm happy to see some PM IC mains still up and running (and coming, too). I hope to be good friends and have genuine discussions with you all in the IC threads!
1Flow
Smash Journeyman
Welcome to the Community and Smashboards!
ilysm
sleepy
Sharkz
Smash Ace
Thanks! Only one match with IC's, but it paid off. I didn't really play the Samus v IC's match well at all (still trying to learn it in Melee), but a little bit of Sopo luck helped a ton.
https://youtu.be/0UOlULferJc
Also, the second to last stock in match 2 demonstrates something I've been doing for a while which is if you miss a dthrow chaingrab at the edge, just walk off with the opponent and do a falling fair. Catches them way more than you'd imagine.
https://youtu.be/0UOlULferJc
Also, the second to last stock in match 2 demonstrates something I've been doing for a while which is if you miss a dthrow chaingrab at the edge, just walk off with the opponent and do a falling fair. Catches them way more than you'd imagine.
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Samwisely
Smash Apprentice
I've started BPadding to gain more height on squall, and holy crap, it's completely changed my offstage game. More recovery options, deeper edgeguards, everything.
Huge drawback though, I no longer have access to all my taunts. While I've now mapped Y to taunt/footstool, I have to make a crucial decision in deciding which taunt to keep.
Huge drawback though, I no longer have access to all my taunts. While I've now mapped Y to taunt/footstool, I have to make a crucial decision in deciding which taunt to keep.
ilysm
sleepy
Side-taunt is quickest and therefore the best for baiting during desyncs. 20nyoopnyoop Icies meta development right here.
I had thought they removed b-padding, it must have only been for Mario/Luigi. That's interesting! I personally just use my index finger, it helps me gain way more height. I don't know if it's max height, though. I especially have trouble with solo Squall. I may try b-padding, but I don't want to come to rely on it because I can't use it in Melee.
I had thought they removed b-padding, it must have only been for Mario/Luigi. That's interesting! I personally just use my index finger, it helps me gain way more height. I don't know if it's max height, though. I especially have trouble with solo Squall. I may try b-padding, but I don't want to come to rely on it because I can't use it in Melee.
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Samwisely
Smash Apprentice
I play them in both games and it doesn't affect me too much. The biggest issue is not going for safe wobble setups because I'm used to chaining a bunch of stuff together (dthrow dair, iceblock reset, pummel Nana squall, pummel Nana Blizz) if I get a grab in the middle of the stage.
As for BPad, it's certainly helping me. I get way higher with it. I never was good at mashing the b button.
As for BPad, it's certainly helping me. I get way higher with it. I never was good at mashing the b button.
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Samwisely
Smash Apprentice
Double post, but I played a tourney in between, so it's OK right?
Anyone have experience against Ikes? I had a really hard time in neutral, Nana was content just getting messed up.
Anyone have experience against Ikes? I had a really hard time in neutral, Nana was content just getting messed up.
D
Deleted member
Guest
Can someone help me with advice on how to do the down throw to forward throw chaingrab?
ilysm
sleepy
@Feelicks
(don’t know how much help you need so i may explain things that sound basic to you or puke unnecessary complications on you so sorry in advance)
So! D-throw is a throw that scales its speed depending on the weight of the character you’re throwing: heavy characters cause the d-throw animation to go slower and light characters cause the d-throw to go faster. The timing is different for every character, but you can generally lump them into groups with roughly the same timing (lighter characters like G&W, Metaknight, Jiggs, or Fox; midweights like the Mario Bros., Ness, Falcon, Link; heavyweights like DK, Bowser, D3, etc.). There’s a chart of all the weight classes here if it helps to study. There’s no visual cue to respond to on reaction when trying to catch an opponent off of d-throw, but if you watch you’ll notice a green flash the instant touch the ground. Try and get a feel for when that will happen for each character (with practice it’s pretty easy to anticipate when they’ll hit the ground). You can buffer a grab within 2-3 frames of that instant (if my memory serves me correctly) in order to get the handoff.
F-throw does not, to my knowledge, scale its speed with the character’s weight, so the timing for Popo regrab off of Nana f-throw is the same across the cast, which makes things simpler. There’s less of a visual cue to do this regrab, so you just need to kind of watch for when the character you’re throwing actually leaves Nana’s throw and buffer a grab around then (if you’re having trouble with this, pull up debug mode and try the frame advance feature—it’s super useful), but once you can grind it out the rhythm is easier to work into muscle memory because it’s not character-specific. Remember to walk forward enough as Popo in order to catch the opponent; generally when I miss it’s either because I grab with Popo too early or don’t walk forward far enough. Also make sure that once you regrab from f-throw you give Nana a split second to catch up with you before you throw again. I just pummel once with Popo again while Nana is in endlag from their throw, which is tricky (but definitely not impossible) to mash out of at mid-higher percentages. You can tell you’ve done this right if Popo pummels but Nana doesn’t jab. Then d-throw as soon as you can after the jab. I’ve seen other Icies players just wait without pummeling, which I believe is very slightly quicker but makes it a little more difficult to visually see the best moment to d-throw again. Do whatever feels better for you, depending on how good at mashing the people you play against are.
For bonus points, do it on platforms without Nana falling through the platform by doing a wavedash in place input rather than a simple d-throw! If you do it right, Nana will wavedash straight down and recover in time to grab even Jigglypuff (the lightest character in the game). It makes Icies’ platform game (especially out of tech chases) really scary and helps net a lot of kills, especially on big platforms.
Hope this helps! ^_^
(don’t know how much help you need so i may explain things that sound basic to you or puke unnecessary complications on you so sorry in advance)
So! D-throw is a throw that scales its speed depending on the weight of the character you’re throwing: heavy characters cause the d-throw animation to go slower and light characters cause the d-throw to go faster. The timing is different for every character, but you can generally lump them into groups with roughly the same timing (lighter characters like G&W, Metaknight, Jiggs, or Fox; midweights like the Mario Bros., Ness, Falcon, Link; heavyweights like DK, Bowser, D3, etc.). There’s a chart of all the weight classes here if it helps to study. There’s no visual cue to respond to on reaction when trying to catch an opponent off of d-throw, but if you watch you’ll notice a green flash the instant touch the ground. Try and get a feel for when that will happen for each character (with practice it’s pretty easy to anticipate when they’ll hit the ground). You can buffer a grab within 2-3 frames of that instant (if my memory serves me correctly) in order to get the handoff.
F-throw does not, to my knowledge, scale its speed with the character’s weight, so the timing for Popo regrab off of Nana f-throw is the same across the cast, which makes things simpler. There’s less of a visual cue to do this regrab, so you just need to kind of watch for when the character you’re throwing actually leaves Nana’s throw and buffer a grab around then (if you’re having trouble with this, pull up debug mode and try the frame advance feature—it’s super useful), but once you can grind it out the rhythm is easier to work into muscle memory because it’s not character-specific. Remember to walk forward enough as Popo in order to catch the opponent; generally when I miss it’s either because I grab with Popo too early or don’t walk forward far enough. Also make sure that once you regrab from f-throw you give Nana a split second to catch up with you before you throw again. I just pummel once with Popo again while Nana is in endlag from their throw, which is tricky (but definitely not impossible) to mash out of at mid-higher percentages. You can tell you’ve done this right if Popo pummels but Nana doesn’t jab. Then d-throw as soon as you can after the jab. I’ve seen other Icies players just wait without pummeling, which I believe is very slightly quicker but makes it a little more difficult to visually see the best moment to d-throw again. Do whatever feels better for you, depending on how good at mashing the people you play against are.
For bonus points, do it on platforms without Nana falling through the platform by doing a wavedash in place input rather than a simple d-throw! If you do it right, Nana will wavedash straight down and recover in time to grab even Jigglypuff (the lightest character in the game). It makes Icies’ platform game (especially out of tech chases) really scary and helps net a lot of kills, especially on big platforms.
Hope this helps! ^_^
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941
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Nov 28, 2014
- Messages
- 448
If you need help with character-specific timings: http://smashboards.com/threads/ice-climbers-grabs-and-desynces.344412/page-5#post-18357263
I think ROB's weight was changed, so that part might be wrong, but the rest of them should be accurate.
I think ROB's weight was changed, so that part might be wrong, but the rest of them should be accurate.
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Sharkz
Smash Ace
Melee habits is why. I've been playing in Melee tournies for around 2 years now and only played 3 samuses ever (never had before August). I had no idea what to pick against Samus. I'm used to fd and it was obvious it wasn't a great choice. This matchup actually feels a decent amount harder than it already does in PM.Why FD against Samus? It worked out for You, but I generally hate FD in that MU because I can't stop Missiles from hitting Nana. Also, D-throw U-smash will almost always KO Samus earlier than D-throw F-Smash
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1Flow
Smash Journeyman
You need to be near a ledge to keep it going. It can then lead into a spike using f air
Volume AF
Smash Cadet
Ike vs ICs is a harder neutral than normal just because of the speed and raw power Ike has to separate/ kill ICs at low percentage. Normally camping with Ice blocks is the way to go to interrupt QuickDraw. Just have to wait longer for his aerials to be able to counter with Bair or WD jab. It's a more bait game than usual but once you get the grab it should be over since Ike is a heavy.
Kerfuffle
Smash Apprentice
So ICs have a bad MU spread, I think we're all aware. What is your idea to giving them the tools they need to survive certain MUs? This post may get long, so bare with me. I've been drinking and just trying to brainstorm some stuff.
Ice Climbers have a hard time dealing with the following: Being camped out, easily separated, and cheese kills on Nana. So what is a tweak we can give them to help them with these weaknesses? We can't give them burst movement because that'd be dumb and broken possibly. We can't give them better camping tools because that's mega lame. We can't give them better chain grabs because people don't want that. I'd say the biggest buff we could give them is a way to keep them together that's not really dumb. Like, for example, make Nana always nair out of hit stun when above the stage and seperated from Popo. Or have her always tech in the direction of Popo. I like those ideas.
As for ways to avoid outcamping, maybe make ice blocks not so weird against other projectiles. Like, ivy razor leaf will not only block the ice, but keep going through it. That's dumb. I'd say it should trade with others, like hit them and they both disappear. That way boomerangs and razor leafs and such wouldn't be such a massive pain. What are your thoughts?
Ice Climbers have a hard time dealing with the following: Being camped out, easily separated, and cheese kills on Nana. So what is a tweak we can give them to help them with these weaknesses? We can't give them burst movement because that'd be dumb and broken possibly. We can't give them better camping tools because that's mega lame. We can't give them better chain grabs because people don't want that. I'd say the biggest buff we could give them is a way to keep them together that's not really dumb. Like, for example, make Nana always nair out of hit stun when above the stage and seperated from Popo. Or have her always tech in the direction of Popo. I like those ideas.
As for ways to avoid outcamping, maybe make ice blocks not so weird against other projectiles. Like, ivy razor leaf will not only block the ice, but keep going through it. That's dumb. I'd say it should trade with others, like hit them and they both disappear. That way boomerangs and razor leafs and such wouldn't be such a massive pain. What are your thoughts?
1Flow
Smash Journeyman
Sounds good but if they cant be seperated, they cant chaingrab, desync, or even combo that well.
Volume AF
Smash Cadet
I totally agree with the AI doing a move after hitstun, but in general AI should be a bit smarter. Nana already techs well when at high percent but just getting back from hitstun offstage is the problem, so I'd suggest being able to side B again, not just use DJ and UpB. I also agree on the projectile trades they have. It's lame that one ice block doesn't at least break certain projectiles.
Kerfuffle
Smash Apprentice
Oh I wasn't saying they shouldn't be able to desync themselves or get separated, just that Nana should do SOMETHING proactive to get herself out of combos. Nair is a good get off me move, plus you can potentially follow it up if you're chasing her down trying to get her back.
Volume AF
Smash Cadet
I'd honestly be hyped for that. It's nice knowing what another ICs think I'm a match
Samwisely
Smash Apprentice
1Flow
Smash Journeyman
sounds like a wonderful idea.
I honestly think IC's would be super busted if Nana AI was any better, especially if she was better at getting out of combos. They need to have weaknesses lol.
Don't think we can, and if I do then side-b is probably getting nerfed.
FirewaterDM
Smash Apprentice
What is the benefit to one climber on the ledge, other than avoiding that gimp situation? like the ridiculousness of the recovery is nice (to be fair if we nerfed anything it should be up-b killing power/sweetspot). I'm just not sure what benefits we get from that change that is healthy for matchups.
941
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Nov 28, 2014
- Messages
- 448
I think Up-B snapping both Climbers to the ledge is kind of dumb. You don't have to space it well to sweetspot like most characters, and the only way to edguard it by doing the gimp that automatically KOs them, so there's no middle ground with using it. Either ICs make it back for free, or not at all. Also having Nana be able to edgehog in Melee is pretty great.
Samwisely
Smash Apprentice
Had two different people rage quit on me tonight because of "bull**** handoffs", "chaingrabs shouldn't do this much damage wtf", and " they took out wobbling, you can't keep me stuck for so long, this is stupid ".
I'm taking it as a sign of progress. I want people to be just as afraid and pissed at sick swaggy IC stuff in PM as they already are at Melee wobbling. It's not fun to have people be pissed at me in Melee because wobbling is actually really dumb. I'll continue to do it, but it's a stupid mechanic.
I'm taking it as a sign of progress. I want people to be just as afraid and pissed at sick swaggy IC stuff in PM as they already are at Melee wobbling. It's not fun to have people be pissed at me in Melee because wobbling is actually really dumb. I'll continue to do it, but it's a stupid mechanic.
Kerfuffle
Smash Apprentice
So nobody really answered my initial question in my above post. What do YOU think would be a good way to address the problem of ICs awful MU spread? What is a tweak or tool you would give them or change to just give them a little better edge in the really bad ones?
ilysm
sleepy
Kerfuffle
Personally I'm not sure how productive a discussion like that would be as we've already been told with some amount of finality that Ice Climbers have seen the last of their changes (unless some glaring bug or QOL change arises). I can't speak for everyone, but personally I'm alright with that. They have some tricky matchups—ok, not gonna lie, some awful matchups—but that kind of comes with the territory of playing a character with polarized strengths and weaknesses. Someone who can exploit Icies' weaknesses will do better against them than they would someone with the same weaknesses, albeit less inflated. I'm not sure if the way I phrased it makes sense?? Idk. Anyway, in order to play this game seriously, it's better to have a secondary (unless you main Fox, arguably). Sticking with Icies through their subpar MU spread is a decision like any other one that has consequences like any other one. What I'm trying to say is that a bad MU spread might just be something we'll need to live with, keeping in mind that a losing matchup on paper doesn't necessarily always translate into a match.
Samwisely
Smash Apprentice
I've always viewed PM as a game that needs secondaries. No character can cover all MUs, nor should they. I use Tink to deal with Peach, Ivy, Toon Link, Ike, and a couple others.
Crap, even in Melee I'm starting to work on a Puff for Peach.
Yeah, the MU spread isn't great, but all characters have some polarizing MUs.
Crap, even in Melee I'm starting to work on a Puff for Peach.
Yeah, the MU spread isn't great, but all characters have some polarizing MUs.
Volume AF
Smash Cadet
I think Up B snap is the best mechanic they could've introduced. They made it so that you try to save your partner as much as possible (M risk, H Reward IMO), and besides that, you can still get hit between the AI pulling you in and snapping to ledge already.technically there is a sweetspot to try and go for, it's just like any other tether in a way, You're not invincible during it.
MU spread concern is all in your secondaries unfortunately, even if we do have bad Matchups I go ICs to learn how to improve in some ( Ike, Snake, Ivy) cause there are ways of exploiting some weaknesses on certain characters. But nonetheless Counter picks will be counter picks.
MU spread concern is all in your secondaries unfortunately, even if we do have bad Matchups I go ICs to learn how to improve in some ( Ike, Snake, Ivy) cause there are ways of exploiting some weaknesses on certain characters. But nonetheless Counter picks will be counter picks.
This just..isn't true lol. Fox definitely loses some match-ups, even if it's slightly. The amount of hate PM players give fox is baffling to me, he's clearly worse than he is in melee and I think it's very telling to the overall skill level of most PM players when it comes to smash. The only fox players you see doing well in PM tournaments are the top top echelon of fox players in melee, who are extremely talented and have spent years practicing their character.
But yeah, IC's match-up spread isn't as horrible as people are making it out to be. I don't think they have unwinnable match-ups, and if they do it's only TL platform camping. Most characters require secondaries in a game with this many viable characters. IC's had several hard match-ups in brawl but still ended up being considered the 2nd best character in the game.