Cold Shoulders: Ice Climbers Social Thread

[Kef]

Kef i cant get the timing down for the down-throws to back-throws. Anyways i like what your doing so keep it up.

Hmm. It can be really hard seeing that Popo/Nana are programmed to throw different characters down at different speeds. One visual cue I use that I got from a tip of a poster in here is to check for when the opponent hits the ground and grab them afterwards. With enough practice you should be able to become consistent.

BTW, check it's version 3.0.1 or newer, cause in 3.0, it's almost impossible.

 

[KingDozie]

Ok like when you dthrow wario you see the flash on the ground. That is a sign that you have to regrab.

 

[KingDozie]

Ok like when you dthrow wario you see the flash on the ground. That is a sign that you have to regrab.

 

[Kef]

Ok like when you dthrow wario you see the flash on the ground. That is a sign that you have to regrab.

Yes sir. Remember different characters are thrown faster than others, so they can hit the ground earlier/later.

 

[KingDozie]

What do you guys think of ice climbers on the tier list.
http://smashboards.com/threads/tier-list-speculation.331666/page-199

 

[Iceman]

What do you guys think of ice climbers on the tier list.
http://smashboards.com/threads/tier-list-speculation.331666/page-199

I think they might have the potential to go higher if their grab game matures. However, Wobbling and the Brawl Infinite are not present, so it will be an uphill battle unless an equal infinite is discovered. That makes it interesting though. I like starting from the bottom.

 

[Ringbearer]

Does anyone else have any issues with Nana? I find that, like all the other CPUs in the game, she is overall smarter than she's ever been before... but still frustratingly prone to randomly killing herself. I typically take great care to keep my Nana alive, but sometimes we'll be separated, both on the stage, and I'll be fending off the opponent, waiting for her to run back to me, and suddenly I hear her death cry, as she has decided to, instead of running back to me, dash dance a bit, and the jump and air dodge off the stage in the complete opposite direction as me. A random nanacide seems to happen to me about once every five or six stocks. She also seems to struggle a lot returning to me if there's any platforms in her way and/or just randomly takes a long time returning to me sometimes.

I know Hylian already addressed this issue, but it's also extremely frustrating when, while both right beside each other, I can use Up-B, and both me and Nana will use the attack at the same time, but neither of us actually go anywhere, and instead fall together to our deaths. With their recovery options already all rather dangerous and their offstage game extremely risky, it's an often-frustrating added difficulty to have to throw out an aerial in order to try to make sure they are absolute synched before using the b-up. Especially when they're right beside each other.

It also kinda sucks, on stages (like Lylat) with slanted edges, when you use side-b and are pulled rather strongly off the edge, as, if you use side-b and then go off the stage, you have no recovery options. It would be nice if the ICs could at least b-up still if they start their side-b *on* the stage and then use it to roll off.

And lastly, in the vein of throwing out unsolicited suggestions: it would be sorta nice if, when using up-b as an actual attack, Popo did not enter into a special fall if Nana connects. The move already has limited viability as an actual attack, and, even if you connect with it, unless you kill the opponent upon landing the move, you're in a pretty punishable position. Having both climbers falling separately and defenselessly is no bueno. But at the same time, if Popo could still attack whenever Nana lands the up-b hit, he could initiate a synched side-b, which could be a potentially OP follow-up option. Idk. Just wish the move was a tiny bit more useful/less crippling.


And Hylian: yes. I very much like the new grab release points. While my play group aren't really masters of SDI, I've been able to chain grab pre

 

[Hylian]

Most nana suicides are because of some action you input on the controller(most often it's because you shielded). As you play you'll learn to make her avoid doing that when she isn't near you. I would often see IC players in brawl kill nana and then blame her when it was their faults and they just didn't know it. She has similar(a little bit better now) AI and I haven't really seen her kill herself when it wasn't my fault once yet, this is something you will get over with experience.

Popo not going into special fall after up-b would be absolutely broken for recovery lol, there is a case for making up-b stronger but other than that...it's an up-b not an offensive tool most of the time it should be risky when used in that manner. Also, you can't SDI throws.

 

[Ringbearer]

Thank ya, sir. I'll do what I can to look into that, but there are still times when she offs herself even though we're on opposite sides of the stage, which is less than optimal.

And that's interesting about not being able to SDI throws. Did not know. They can SDI whatever attack you have Nana use to knock them back into a grab though. Either way, between d-throw to nana dair to grab, f-throw to nana dair to grab, and d-throw to nana side-b to grab, I've been able to chain everyone but Jiggs, only failing to get a regrab when I misread their DI or make the wrong choice of which approach to CGing. CPUs can't DI away either, but idk how perfectly/quickly they are designed to DI. If a computer cannot escape a certain grab at a certain percent, is it safe to assume a human could not either, or does a fast player have a slight advantage?

 

[Hylian]

It's not safe to assume at all, most humans will DI correctly while computers almost never will. Things like dthrow dair get shut down fast against SDI on the dair but can work if your opponent isn't experience against IC's.

 

[Kef]

I guess that's why you switch up the mixup after the Down Throw. You can go for something like a Nana SideB/NeutralB reset into regrab if your opponent is getting used to DI'ing out of Dair.

These type of center stage setups are what need to evolve IMO. We already have strong setups near the ledge, which makes the ICs play like a scary grappler/corner monster in traditional fighting games. Instead of "don't get grabbed" is something like "don't get cornered".

 

[KingDozie]

I guess that's why you switch up the mixup after the Down Throw. You can go for something like a Nana SideB/NeutralB reset into regrab if your opponent is getting used to DI'ing out of Dair.

These type of center stage setups are what need to evolve IMO. We already have strong setups near the ledge, which makes the ICs play like a scary grappler/corner monster in traditional fighting games. Instead of "don't get grabbed" is something like "don't get cornered".

Dosnt feel like Dthrow to dair works anyways.

 

[Ringbearer]

These type of center stage setups are what need to evolve IMO. We already have strong setups near the ledge, which makes the ICs play like a scary grappler/corner monster in traditional fighting games. Instead of "don't get grabbed" is something like "don't get cornered".

I agree. While the timing changes for different characters and damage percentages is something that can be challenging, the ICs edge game is terrifying once they grab you. Unfortunately, the edge is a terrible position for them overall. A DDD-like grab game to somewhat consistently get people over to the edge would benefit them massively. Someone will (hopefully) find reliable methods eventually. Currently experimenting with dthrow to fair tech chases. Dthrow and fthrow to nana side-b has some interesting options, but idk how vulnerable these methods are to DI escapes.

 

[KingDozie]

I agree. While the timing changes for different characters and damage percentages is something that can be challenging, the ICs edge game is terrifying once they grab you. Unfortunately, the edge is a terrible position for them overall. A DDD-like grab game to somewhat consistently get people over to the edge would benefit them massively. Someone will (hopefully) find reliable methods eventually. Currently experimenting with dthrow to fair tech chases. Dthrow and fthrow to nana side-b has some interesting options, but idk how vulnerable these methods are to DI escapes.

Ring use alot of Dthrow to Side b on heaives it works well. For fastfallers just Dthrow to fair and also use Upthrow to fair for tech chasing. Also it kills high % against floaties. You dont want to be at the edge at all when playing ices.

 

[Iceman]

Ok so I have a question. In PM wobbling is no longer an infinite, but is it still a good way to build percent? How long can you wobble someone around 80 to 100%?

 

[Hylian]

Ok so I have a question. In PM wobbling is no longer an infinite, but is it still a good way to build percent? How long can you wobble someone around 80 to 100%?

No, it's not worth doing ever, there are always better damage alternatives.

 

[GunBlaze]

So, any SoPo mains out there now he's a legit char?

 

[KingDozie]

So, any SoPo mains out there now he's a legit char?

Please nerf Fox tier.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Has this been posted?

fly playing ic in PM waoh

 

[Time2Play]

How does he prevent Nana from upthrowing?

 

[Hylian]

By playing a build before the IC's were out to the public.

 

[Time2Play]

By playing a build before the IC's were out to the public.

Nooooooo, had some hope left he found some secret strategies

 

[Ringbearer]

I've seen some talk about matchups and tier list speculation. What do you guys think about our beloved eskimos as a character? Do they need to be nerfed or buffed do you think, and in what ways?

I personally think that they dont quite have the tools to make up for the loss of infinites, especially since they were about 8th in melee with wobbling enabled. They're pretty much at a disadvantage everywhere except at center stage on the ground. So easy to gimp.

They're still definitely awesome though. I just feel like they cam use a little more umph.

 

[KingDozie]

I've seen some talk about matchups and tier list speculation. What do you guys think about our beloved eskimos as a character? Do they need to be nerfed or buffed do you think, and in what ways?

I personally think that they dont quite have the tools to make up for the loss of infinites, especially since they were about 8th in melee with wobbling enabled. They're pretty much at a disadvantage everywhere except at center stage on the ground. So easy to gimp.

They're still definitely awesome though. I just feel like they cam use a little more umph.

I know what you mean they should have something buffed if they took away wobbling.

 

[Hylian]

Things were buffed...

I have yet to play someone I couldn't beat with IC's, I definitely think they have the tools to do fine in a tournament. They have tools they didn't in melee and brawl, you guys just need to explore them and not worry about the character being viable before you actually put in the work.

 

[KingDozie]

Things were buffed...

I have yet to play someone I couldn't beat with IC's, I definitely think they have the tools to do fine in a tournament. They have tools they didn't in melee and brawl, you guys just need to explore them and not worry about the character being viable before you actually put in the work.

Trust me i put alot of work into Ice climbers. There spacing,mu, and grab combos just that the other charcters in this game are way better. Im not saying that they need wobbling just that in melee Ices werent top tier even with wobbling(there still pretty good) but buff like Upilts or bilzzards doing more damage. They just need more useful buff but i dont know what they really need.

 

[Ringbearer]

I definitely appreciate all the hard work that has gone into the ICs for PM. Having most desynchs form both games is fun and gives them more options in most situations, being able to desynch blizzard without Nana starting hers up automatically, being able to squall hammer separately, and Nana's AI are all great helps to the ICs, not to mention various other tweaks (like squall hammer actually being useful as a move now!). That said, while I am certainly not a professional player, I would still maintain that they have a little further to go, even being the funnest iteration of the ICs so far. I played ICs in melee frequently, and when PM came out, I put in about 10-20 times as many hours into practicing things with the ICs compared to Mewtwo, yet against just about all of my friends, I can much more easily fight with Mewtwo than with ICs. I barely ever see Chu playing as ICs in PM, and I haven't seen any footage of Fly playing them yet either.

Being able to desynch in more ways is helpful, but it is still a fairly situational advantage; in melee, finding time to quickly desynch was never really a problem for me. The Up-cstick out of shield is truly great, and the dash dance desynchs are helpful, but ICs are still seem to be at a disadvantage against many characters with swords, useful projectiles, or good edge-guarding options. Which is a huge selection of the cast.

Just my opinion; I would be glad to be wrong and to see some ICs do some damage in tourneys somewhere. (i.e. go and give some people frostbite for us, Hylian.)

 

[didds]

What's up everyone! Old to the scene, but fairly new to actually taking part in smashboards discussion. I've decided to learn icies, they look super cool and I've got a thing for wonky characters, I main Yoshi and secondary m2 and squirtle, so the ics seem right up my alley. So yea, what's goin on people, anything in particular I can start with?

edit: just saw the ics beginners tip thread, but still, what's good homies!?

 

[KingDozie]

What's up everyone! Old to the scene, but fairly new to actually taking part in smashboards discussion. I've decided to learn icies, they look super cool and I've got a thing for wonky characters, I main Yoshi and secondary m2 and squirtle, so the ics seem right up my alley. So yea, what's goin on people, anything in particular I can start with?

edit: just saw the ics beginners tip thread, but still, what's good homies!?

Hey Didds nice for you to learn ices.

 

[didds]

Well I like wding and I've used a hammer before. Ices are right up my alley.

 

[Player -0]

D-Throw -> Footstool. Not sure if you can regrab but it seems pretty legit.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Are there any good vids yet?

 

[KingDozie]

D-Throw -> Footstool. Not sure if you can regrab but it seems pretty legit.

Its hard to do consistently

 

[Chesstiger2612]

It seems to be very strong. I try to footstool with Nana but have to perform the action before I can see where my opponent is because of the ten frames... Sometimes accidently taunt with Sopo. Might very well be that it is a cg until the igher mid %s if regrab is guaranteed.

 

[Player -0]

I'll mess with the D-Throw Footstool CG a bit later, can't atm. Semi-grounded.

I'll also check with other throws too. Footstool stuff is exciting.

Wondering if D-Throw -> Foostool with Nana -> Blizzard -> Regrab/anything works now.

 

[MonkUnit]

ICs are really fun and I wanted to try and use them more. I have 2 videos; ~12min vid vs Fox and ~24min vid vs DK. I did not see a video thread on this board yet so I felt like I should post it here. Critique my ICs please =)

 

[KingDozie]

ICs are really fun and I wanted to try and use them more. I have 2 videos; ~12min vid vs Fox and ~24min vid vs DK. I did not see a video thread on this board yet so I felt like I should post it here. Critique my ICs please =)

I suck on doing those but i can try.
0:23-27 You never want to do a jump bait on ledge generally against fox because of shine and ices cant reovery without nana(Do something safer Roll option look just try to mix it up but dont use ledgehops). Also make sure to side b and hope not to get hit twice so you can reovery with side b again.

1:36-40 You can dying from shine spike just side b early as soon as you leave the stage.

2:57-59 I will advise you to use dthrow to fair or fthrow to fair because dthrow to dair combos dont really work and the ones i mention leads to techchases.

5:35-37 Agianst good players when you separate from anan you dont want to just mindlessy get back with her or you will get punish.

9:10-17 I like that you use desynx blizzarrds but i will warn you that you can get punish for using too much desync. You can try Full jump blizzards if the fox is really aggro.

9:32-35 You could have use a fsmash or blizzards ledge grab to beat that fox recovery.

Stages:Dont pick pokemon stadium stages. I like stages like fod and Lylat cruise against fox.

You want to stay more grounded in this matchup dont use your aeiral game against fox lol and STOP USING DESYNC so much you will get wreck with players that know how to use shine effectively. I like the way you abuse ftilt its useful because for some reason people miss those tech and also use jabs just incase fox is too much on your space. Dash attack help when the fox is too jumpy and use it for a surpise move.

Closing:Its nice that you like the ices stick with them and you seem like a smart player it would be nice to give us more information about them.

 

[MonkUnit]

Thanks. I only really know how to do dthrow CGs, dthrow -> dair/fair, and I have heard of the ledge handoff but I have never tried it. I really need to work on better throw followups and using fair out of throws and dthrow dair less. In regards to the blizzard spam at 9:10, I did not know that I was being recorded so I ended up doing silly stuff, haha.

Any feedback about the vid against DK? =)

 

[KingDozie]

Thanks. I only really know how to do dthrow CGs, dthrow -> dair/fair, and I have heard of the ledge handoff but I have never tried it. I really need to work on better throw followups and using fair out of throws and dthrow dair less. In regards to the blizzard spam at 9:10, I did not know that I was being recorded so I ended up doing silly stuff, haha.

Any feedback about the vid against DK? =)

Sorry i would do a full review but im lazy. DK is a big ass ape so just camp him things like blizzards and sync sideB did work alot in that video. I like the way you use uptilt,Dashattack, it juggles heavies for days and upair. Make sure to use short hop ice blocks not desync. I feel the problem is you cant edgeguard Dk i dont know how to either i will try to get more information. I feel like also you could have won more matches if you knew some chain grab finiser like dthrow to fsmash.

 

[Player -0]

I don't see why desynced Ice Blocks would be bad unless your opponent were decently close. It forced the opponent to camp a platform, use a move/shield to block the incoming ice blocks, or jump to approach. It screws up DD's too.