KingDozie
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Jan 19, 2014
- Messages
- 456
You really shouldnt be using desync unless you really have too. Trust me you will get separated and killed alot easier.
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Cold Shoulders: Ice Climbers Social Thread
- Thread starter Nguz95
- Start date
Player -0
Smash Hero
Ehhhh, not sure about that. Desynced Blizzards and stuff.
Chesstiger2612
Smash Lord
I'm pretty sure there is a way to always have a Ice Climber at the ledge with invincibility when edgeguarding while the other one can punish a recovery on the stage. There are probably multiple ways each best for one situation. I can recommend trying it out.
TheGravyTrain
Smash Ace
Sorry for being such a newb, is there any thread specifying exactly the differences between melee icies and brawl? Like why does the c stick make popo throw? I realize they are an extremely technical char, but why make them more technical and less effective (infinites). Shouldn't it be slightly easier since the infinites are gone? Or is that just because I am a newb and I should give it time...
KingDozie
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Jan 19, 2014
- Messages
- 456
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TheGravyTrain
Smash Ace
Do all aerials sync the climbers up like uair? What I mean is, if have a desync. going with specials, tilts, or smashes, I can keep it going relatively well. With aerials they seem to break through the desyncs.
Also, what do you usually do with a grab at different percents. I usually go for blizzard regrabs at low percents at as soon as I feel that won't work, I just take the safe fsmash and edge guard.
Also, what do you usually do with a grab at different percents. I usually go for blizzard regrabs at low percents at as soon as I feel that won't work, I just take the safe fsmash and edge guard.
RideTheLine
Smash Cadet
That's exactly what I do. Except, sometimes, when at center stage, I'll dthrow-fair to either set up a tech chase or just bat the opponent away.
Iceman
Smash Apprentice
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYDHBkl4pgw
This is a video of me playing friendlies at a big tournament in Dallas. Please feel free to offer criticism.
This is a video of me playing friendlies at a big tournament in Dallas. Please feel free to offer criticism.
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RideTheLine
Smash Cadet
Whoa whoa whoa, you mean I wasn't the only Ice Climber main there? Dude, do you live around the area? We could totally jam on Ice Climbers during tournaments.
EDIT: Also, sick grab set-ups and spacing. I could learn a fair amount from your Blizzard usage, as you were covering a lot of the stuff that Roy and characters like Roy give me.
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TheGravyTrain
Smash Ace
What desync are you doing at 3:36? Right after Roy hits you, you seem to desync nana right out of a hit.
EDIT: Here is where in the video: http://youtu.be/XYDHBkl4pgw?t=3m36s
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Iceman
Smash Apprentice
I was doing the shieldstun desync. When an opponent hits your shield Popo is in stun while Nana can act out of shield
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Iceman
Smash Apprentice
Yeah I live near SMU. Are you going to Infinity and Beyond?
RideTheLine
Smash Cadet
Probably? I would like to, but that depends on a few other variables this week. I intend to go to at least a few Infinity & Beyonds.
Iceman
Smash Apprentice
Well I'm there every week and I'm always practicing new ICs tech. My goal is to make them a viable threat.
RideTheLine
Smash Cadet
Glad to see I'm not the only one making an effort. I'll try and go this week (emphasis on "try"). I do have a problem in that my Wii broke a few hours ago, so I won't be pretty.
Chesstiger2612
Smash Lord
On the topic of new tech:
Popo d-throw -> Nana ice block -> Popo pivot up-tilt -> Nana (depending on %) sh / fj / fj&dj fair meteor -> Popo regrab
Up-tilt because you have long enough time to position with Nana then, here is an easy method for pivot up-tilts for tap jump off. Ice block is not always needed but helps having more room to react on their DI.
If you misread their DI on the fair you will only get a techchase. Also after the regrab it only works again if Nana has time to land so input a fastfall after the fair. Otherwise just do standard grab combos.
On higher %s it can be necessary to crouch out or run and dash again immediately so you can do pivots. Doing a WD instead works sometimes but gives them more room to break out.
If they SDI the up-tilt, continue doing something with Nana, for example a smash attack at high %s, jabs to lock the opponent until Popo can regrab or some upward hitting move for a up-air/nair/bair followup.
Isn't an infinite by any means but a strong grab combo.
Popo d-throw -> Nana ice block -> Popo pivot up-tilt -> Nana (depending on %) sh / fj / fj&dj fair meteor -> Popo regrab
Up-tilt because you have long enough time to position with Nana then, here is an easy method for pivot up-tilts for tap jump off. Ice block is not always needed but helps having more room to react on their DI.
If you misread their DI on the fair you will only get a techchase. Also after the regrab it only works again if Nana has time to land so input a fastfall after the fair. Otherwise just do standard grab combos.
On higher %s it can be necessary to crouch out or run and dash again immediately so you can do pivots. Doing a WD instead works sometimes but gives them more room to break out.
If they SDI the up-tilt, continue doing something with Nana, for example a smash attack at high %s, jabs to lock the opponent until Popo can regrab or some upward hitting move for a up-air/nair/bair followup.
Isn't an infinite by any means but a strong grab combo.
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Foxy K
Smash Journeyman
This is the kind of stuff I've always wanted to do with ICs, super creative and flashy desynch maneuvers. I'm having trouble at step: "pivot utilt," even with that guide, but I'm determined to get this down and wow everyone here at my scene.
Also, could someone post a video? I can't quite visualize how this is supposed to work. Or ELI5.
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Chesstiger2612
Smash Lord
Sorry, I can't record anything atm.
I can try to explain how it should work though, which part is the toughest one to visualize?
Basically, after the throw Nana performs an ice block while you start dashing with Popo and pivot up-tilt immediately after the ice block's hitlag, otherwise it can be problematic because ice block has barely hitstun. While the opponent is caught in the up-tilt Nana positions herself so she can fair directly after the opponent is launched. Optimally you fair while Popo is still in the up-tilt animation, otherwise use an attack button instead of the c-stick because Popo is released from his animation much faster when he f-tilts instead of f-smashs.
If you want to be really 20XX and Popo is out of his up-tilt animation and you burnt your jump, press jump, next frame c-stick a fair with Nana, and WD in place or to read their DI with Popo. This animation is even shorter.
It wasn't actually that hard to find. It is all about winning time with one climber to position the other for the next move. Ice block gives you that bit of time for a next move, and up-tilt is the move that brings you the most time to position for a followup. Fair and regrab are pretty intuitive.
There are many combos you can do in a similar way of searching for the right choice, desync combos in specific. If you have a secured hit (like in any grab combo), always look first for a desync and then for those timewinning moves and details to extend combos as much as possible.
For example if you read a roll/ spot dodge/ jump/ whatever and you have a secured hit, maybe a pivot move will do best because it leads to desync combos. Pivot up-tilt is by far the best combowise, but pivot f-tilts and ice blocks/blizzard can also lead to something. If you are good in the run-cancel->dash it helps
Other ways to start desync combos are the WD f-tilt/jab desync (where you f-tilt after a WD and Nana will jab), it is somehow difficult though to start combos with it, more of a defensive tool. Same goes for many other desyncs, but almost all of them have small niches of being combo starters. It is worth noting that there are multiple desyncs able to follow your own blizzarding climber/ice block like the Reverse Initial Desync. You will probably be able to followup with desync combos, but in most cases you will grab so also there grab desync combos are the most effective and appliable ones.
A few desync combo ideas you can build in at some part probably:
- Keeping them in a blizzard: using some kind of move when they are in a blizzard. Mostly you can't really followup with the other climber because the blizzard takes a bit but the hitlag and -stun can help you to link aerial->ground move even if it normally would not work: Dair-> up-tilt is my favourite because dair doesn't knock them out of the blizzard and up-tilt has a high damage output and great followups, maybe then up-air...
- If you can punish something really laggy try to run up shield and immediately c-stick up. Nana will up-smash and you can dair chain in the desync. You need to practice a bit but sometimes there are also opportunities for regrabbing, because at some point their DI would be enough to get out. If you control your jump momentum you can keep the dair chain pretty long. Short hops are more usfeul here than full jumps.
- If you are able to do a jab / f-tilt with Nana only while Popo can WD that will get you a regrab in most cases.
- Also watch for the rare opportunities to combo from a high knockback move on because you either stop their flight with a low knockback attack or grab them out of it. Great damage output, but also more of a detail
These would be my ideas about desync combos
I can try to explain how it should work though, which part is the toughest one to visualize?
Basically, after the throw Nana performs an ice block while you start dashing with Popo and pivot up-tilt immediately after the ice block's hitlag, otherwise it can be problematic because ice block has barely hitstun. While the opponent is caught in the up-tilt Nana positions herself so she can fair directly after the opponent is launched. Optimally you fair while Popo is still in the up-tilt animation, otherwise use an attack button instead of the c-stick because Popo is released from his animation much faster when he f-tilts instead of f-smashs.
If you want to be really 20XX and Popo is out of his up-tilt animation and you burnt your jump, press jump, next frame c-stick a fair with Nana, and WD in place or to read their DI with Popo. This animation is even shorter.
It wasn't actually that hard to find. It is all about winning time with one climber to position the other for the next move. Ice block gives you that bit of time for a next move, and up-tilt is the move that brings you the most time to position for a followup. Fair and regrab are pretty intuitive.
There are many combos you can do in a similar way of searching for the right choice, desync combos in specific. If you have a secured hit (like in any grab combo), always look first for a desync and then for those timewinning moves and details to extend combos as much as possible.
For example if you read a roll/ spot dodge/ jump/ whatever and you have a secured hit, maybe a pivot move will do best because it leads to desync combos. Pivot up-tilt is by far the best combowise, but pivot f-tilts and ice blocks/blizzard can also lead to something. If you are good in the run-cancel->dash it helps
Other ways to start desync combos are the WD f-tilt/jab desync (where you f-tilt after a WD and Nana will jab), it is somehow difficult though to start combos with it, more of a defensive tool. Same goes for many other desyncs, but almost all of them have small niches of being combo starters. It is worth noting that there are multiple desyncs able to follow your own blizzarding climber/ice block like the Reverse Initial Desync. You will probably be able to followup with desync combos, but in most cases you will grab so also there grab desync combos are the most effective and appliable ones.
A few desync combo ideas you can build in at some part probably:
- Keeping them in a blizzard: using some kind of move when they are in a blizzard. Mostly you can't really followup with the other climber because the blizzard takes a bit but the hitlag and -stun can help you to link aerial->ground move even if it normally would not work: Dair-> up-tilt is my favourite because dair doesn't knock them out of the blizzard and up-tilt has a high damage output and great followups, maybe then up-air...
- If you can punish something really laggy try to run up shield and immediately c-stick up. Nana will up-smash and you can dair chain in the desync. You need to practice a bit but sometimes there are also opportunities for regrabbing, because at some point their DI would be enough to get out. If you control your jump momentum you can keep the dair chain pretty long. Short hops are more usfeul here than full jumps.
- If you are able to do a jab / f-tilt with Nana only while Popo can WD that will get you a regrab in most cases.
- Also watch for the rare opportunities to combo from a high knockback move on because you either stop their flight with a low knockback attack or grab them out of it. Great damage output, but also more of a detail
These would be my ideas about desync combos
TheGravyTrain
Smash Ace
Has anybody tried to use platform grab combos? Or are Icies just not very good on platforms? I was messing around with some this morning and did something like dthrow (nana falls through)-> nana up air -> popo fair -> nana jab reset -> popo regrab. I cant get the up air to hit after popo dthrow's after that one time.
I was trying to do fair, but that didn't hit high enough. Ooh, what if you had Nana jump? On a platform that should set up for regrabs (as long as they aren't at the edge, which is a lot...).
I was trying to do fair, but that didn't hit high enough. Ooh, what if you had Nana jump? On a platform that should set up for regrabs (as long as they aren't at the edge, which is a lot...).
Chesstiger2612
Smash Lord
Should work except for the jab reset because they tech and stuff...
I think up-air fair should be the most solid choice as you mention. One think I would try is to fastfall after the first Nana up-air and drop through the platform after Popo fair so you can techchase with another up-air (or at high percents a back air).
Otherwise, don't go too much on platforms, but dropping through them (as well as shield dropping <3) is great because it makes your position better even if the aerial misses /gets shielded. I wouldn't go for crazy on-platform followups
It might be a bit disappointing because there is no regrab and it isn't that flashy
but more reliable because you are not on a platform afterwards and this is not that good for ICs. Imagine you want the reset, but the opponent techs. Climbers separated, one of them on a platform stuck in his jab animation, is that what you want?
I think up-air fair should be the most solid choice as you mention. One think I would try is to fastfall after the first Nana up-air and drop through the platform after Popo fair so you can techchase with another up-air (or at high percents a back air).
Otherwise, don't go too much on platforms, but dropping through them (as well as shield dropping <3) is great because it makes your position better even if the aerial misses /gets shielded. I wouldn't go for crazy on-platform followups
It might be a bit disappointing because there is no regrab and it isn't that flashy
but more reliable because you are not on a platform afterwards and this is not that good for ICs. Imagine you want the reset, but the opponent techs. Climbers separated, one of them on a platform stuck in his jab animation, is that what you want?
TheGravyTrain
Smash Ace
The jab reset part was cuz it was against a CPU... So you are saying dthrow, drop through uair, fair? Makes sense
Chesstiger2612
Smash Lord
Yeah and then again drop through and techchase (up-air). You want to be techchasing from the ground because its safer and you can't get stuck on platforms.
TheGravyTrain
Smash Ace
Oh ok, that makes sense. I was confused how to tech chase with up air, wasn't thinking on the platform... Thanks, will try to get all of this down after work.
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Foxy K
Smash Journeyman
This is getting me hot. Thanks for that writeup, Chesstiger. I'm going to need to incorporate all of this into my game.
I've always understood desynching, but as more of a nebulous concept that I could barely put to use. Now that you've given me some concrete tools to use, I should have a great time.
Oh, yeah. The part I'm having a hard time visualizing is how to connect the ice block. Do I block the back of them? do I throw them onto the block? Is it character-specific? How far away from me should they be when the block connects?
I've always understood desynching, but as more of a nebulous concept that I could barely put to use. Now that you've given me some concrete tools to use, I should have a great time.
Oh, yeah. The part I'm having a hard time visualizing is how to connect the ice block. Do I block the back of them? do I throw them onto the block? Is it character-specific? How far away from me should they be when the block connects?
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Chesstiger2612
Smash Lord
@
Foxy K
Hitting with the back of the ice block is most practical for the followups, I didn't try hitting them into it but you need to wait a bit so that might cause trouble with mashouts.
As for desyncing, the part I mentioned is maybe one of three big concepts of the whole desync mechanism, being desync for offensive purpose. Defensive desyncing and desyncing in neutral game are also really important.
Think of those as a bit of a wall, covering as many options as possible. Instead of positioning and time gain in those cases protecting the other climber's weak spot and covering options.
When defending, you want to be able to put out a safe defence as quick as possible (maybe Blizzard + aerial) while in neutral game you want some kind of teamwork with almost no commitment that leaves them open (often one climber doing something like an approach while the other one is defending / making that approach
I forgot to mention the C-up desync last time, if you have a guaranteed up-smash, often shield ->c-up is better because Nana will up-smash and Popo can follow up with a bair at kill percents, a fair meteor for combos or an up-air for some techchase situations.
About pivot desyncs:
Pivot f-tilt: Nana will dash attack which takes 10 frames longer.
Pivot up-tilt: Nana will up-smash which takes 2 frames longer (very little window to keep the desync going, ice block is best to continue it)
Pivot f-smash: Nana will dash attack and can act 9 frames faster
Pivot d-smash: Only a one frame window. Give the d-smash a little charge to make the window to continue the desync bigger
IASA's are taken into account
@
KingDozie
The thing is that you want to land safely. Often it makes more sense to stay on the platform because you can delay this issue and don't have to be in the air right now, but on the longrun you also want to be on the ground...
If you drop down immediately you could be punished but now have the better position. So if you have some kinds of frame advantage I would always go to the ground if you don't have a big punish on the platform, because you got away with a free and safe landing.
It also is a different story depending on how high the platform is. You have to drop down more carefully if it is higher so often you need to wait long on it to be able to drop in the right moment, while you have more opportunities on lower platforms.
Foxy K
Hitting with the back of the ice block is most practical for the followups, I didn't try hitting them into it but you need to wait a bit so that might cause trouble with mashouts.
As for desyncing, the part I mentioned is maybe one of three big concepts of the whole desync mechanism, being desync for offensive purpose. Defensive desyncing and desyncing in neutral game are also really important.
Think of those as a bit of a wall, covering as many options as possible. Instead of positioning and time gain in those cases protecting the other climber's weak spot and covering options.
When defending, you want to be able to put out a safe defence as quick as possible (maybe Blizzard + aerial) while in neutral game you want some kind of teamwork with almost no commitment that leaves them open (often one climber doing something like an approach while the other one is defending / making that approach
I forgot to mention the C-up desync last time, if you have a guaranteed up-smash, often shield ->c-up is better because Nana will up-smash and Popo can follow up with a bair at kill percents, a fair meteor for combos or an up-air for some techchase situations.
About pivot desyncs:
Pivot f-tilt: Nana will dash attack which takes 10 frames longer.
Pivot up-tilt: Nana will up-smash which takes 2 frames longer (very little window to keep the desync going, ice block is best to continue it)
Pivot f-smash: Nana will dash attack and can act 9 frames faster
Pivot d-smash: Only a one frame window. Give the d-smash a little charge to make the window to continue the desync bigger
IASA's are taken into account
@
KingDozie
The thing is that you want to land safely. Often it makes more sense to stay on the platform because you can delay this issue and don't have to be in the air right now, but on the longrun you also want to be on the ground...
If you drop down immediately you could be punished but now have the better position. So if you have some kinds of frame advantage I would always go to the ground if you don't have a big punish on the platform, because you got away with a free and safe landing.
It also is a different story depending on how high the platform is. You have to drop down more carefully if it is higher so often you need to wait long on it to be able to drop in the right moment, while you have more opportunities on lower platforms.
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TheGravyTrain
Smash Ace
In general, how long can you down throw chaingrab as sopo? Also, watching some melee ice climbers, I have a question: in melee could you directly hit someone with a nana smash out of grab? I swear I am not see them dthrow or fthrow. If so, why is that not how it is in P:M.
RideTheLine
Smash Cadet
The dthrow chaingrab won't work for very long on someone who figures out how to DI. And it really varies by character. Fast-fallers are impossible, whereas Toon Link can go grabbed eternally if he never DIs.
As to your second question, I don't know. Probably. If you input a pummel with Popo, you could smash with Nana during that. But most people just dthrow or fthrow into fsmash, or uthrow into fmash.
Player -0
Smash Hero
In Brawl it took two smashes to hit someone out of the grab.
TheGravyTrain
Smash Ace
I thought the SoPo chaingrab was said to work in this game, so I thought it would work for longer.
As for the smashes during grabs, in PM if you hit them while popo has them grabbed, it doesn't do knockback and it does like 7 percent. In a melee climbers videos, you see people ending wobbles with an immediate downsmash or upsmash to trick di. I was wondering why it isn't that way in PM.
As for the smashes during grabs, in PM if you hit them while popo has them grabbed, it doesn't do knockback and it does like 7 percent. In a melee climbers videos, you see people ending wobbles with an immediate downsmash or upsmash to trick di. I was wondering why it isn't that way in PM.
RideTheLine
Smash Cadet
It can work for a while. Can. No guarantees.
You usually end a wobble by just flicking the c-stick down. From my experience, that will make PoPo throw anyway.
TheGravyTrain
Smash Ace
I don't know about melee, but this game dthrow and down smash do not like up. If you do it in PM, they are still in dthrow when Nana hits, thus they only take like 7 percent and receive no knockback.
Foxy K
Smash Journeyman
Not positive but I *think* you can time it to have the dsmash hit them right after the throw releases.
TheGravyTrain
Smash Ace
I know you can... All I want to know is if a Nana smash attack hits someone out of a Popo grab in Melee, and if so, why it doesn't do that in P:M.
Chesstiger2612
Smash Lord
Both Popo and Nana f-smash do 14%, if you hit a grabbed opponent that only does 50% of damage, so 7.0%. Grab breaks for values over 6.0%.
If the f-smash is staled 2 times it only has 83% of damage which is 5.81, which is less than 6 and won't break grabs unless you charge it.
FC f-smash does 19%, on grabs 9.5%, only with a hexastale you can't hit people out of grabs with it
Up-smash & Down-smash: 11%, on grabs 5.5%, you need a little charge even unstaled, if it is staled you need quite a lot of charge on it.
FC up&down-smash do 15%, on grabs 7.5%, after three stales it won't hit out of grabs anymore
I hope that answers the question
If the f-smash is staled 2 times it only has 83% of damage which is 5.81, which is less than 6 and won't break grabs unless you charge it.
FC f-smash does 19%, on grabs 9.5%, only with a hexastale you can't hit people out of grabs with it
Up-smash & Down-smash: 11%, on grabs 5.5%, you need a little charge even unstaled, if it is staled you need quite a lot of charge on it.
FC up&down-smash do 15%, on grabs 7.5%, after three stales it won't hit out of grabs anymore
I hope that answers the question
Iceman
Smash Apprentice
Has anyone tried the charged fsmash regrab on fastfallers? I've been having some fun experimenting with it in the center of the stage. It works well on the fastfallers, but floaties can travel alittle too high.
Chesstiger2612
Smash Lord
I feel like it doesn't work against correct DI, down+away probably
Iceman
Smash Apprentice
I've had success with it against DIing opponents. Fly Amanita has used in in Melee on Foxes and Falcos. You down-throw with Popo and then charge the fsmash just a little. You want to charge it a little because Popo cannot grab while you are charging a nana smash. So when you let go of the Fsmash you want to immediately grab with Popo. This all can happen pretty fast, so it can catch people off guard.
Chesstiger2612
Smash Lord
Ah OK it makes sense if its just a little charge