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Clone Engine Misc. Discussion Thread

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ChronoBound

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(You also keep mentioning Lyn, but like I said, I don't think she's worth it either given we already have 3 Fire Emblem characters now. Do you think the PMBR is gonna spend their time making TWO Fire emblem characters out of the 7 slots?)
Want to take me up on this bet?

I would not be surprised if Lyn one of the first two new fighters introduced after Mewtwo is unveiled.

Secondly, only you have been putting up a big stink about my Sami idea. Back when I first proposed it, I received like six likes for the idea.

Like I said, I am working on a massive project piece for what newcomers would have the potential to be both the most feasible and the most positively received. Once I finish it, I will elaborate more on Sami.

However, as I said before, its seems the beef about Sami is mostly coming from you (and to a lesser extent NZA who wants a Famicom Wars character that is not a clone of Snake).

Lots of people like the idea, and I think she is definitely going to be postively received as a newcomer.

I would love to see two series receive playable characters from the six remaining slots.

Isaac of course would be a top priority.
 

shinhed-echi

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Speaking of Prime.

Prime 1: Loved it
Prime 2: ... Kinda disliked it, actually.
Prime 3: Loved it to death.

And I played the Wii version with Motion Controls. :) Going trigger happy was tiring at first, but I got used to it. A really awesome gaming experience that I hope I'll repeat someday.


-

On clones, I'm against Lyn. Not because of the character (really dig her game and the character), but 4 Fire Emblem characters is just overkill for the roster. There are so many trophies and ASSIST trophies to look at, so I'm not sure what another swordsman could do different.

Sukapon talk got me excited, THAT I would support.

Devil, Starfy, Ahley Robbins, the Ouendan or Elite Beat Agents, etc.
 

GuruKid

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Having an existing character with similar body structure and proportions goes a long way in easing the animation workload. In Roy's case, his bone structure is very similar to Marth's, reducing the workload on the more mundane and obscure animations (item interactions, ladder climbing, water interactions, sleep, etc) thus allowing our animators to focus more on the main animations you'd see regularly. The similarity in body structure allows us to take one character's movement file (fitxxxxmotionetc.pac) and use it as a solid base for the clone character's animations.

The same principle goes for the moveset (PSA) file; we use a file that best serves as a base for the clone character as build from there. Special Move layout/properties and Articles are the two main considerations here:

- Most specials have properties called Floats that define how that particular special behaves. Changing the values of these floats enables us to change these specials in very big ways; this along with normal PSA coding allows us a great deal of creative freedom in turning it into a different special all-around.

- Articles I suppose can best be described as outside props that characters use within their moveset. Ness's PK Thunder, Snake's Nikita, Mario's Fireball, and Fox's Blaster are all articles; they spawn them when the coding calls for it and then they're removed. They all have their own separate attributes and are notoriously difficult to modify so in many cases we must strongly consider the original character's article properties if we wish to make the clone character use these articles in their movesets. We also cannot add or create custom articles, so whatever the article amount a certain character possesses is the amount we have to work with.

Keep in mind we can use one character's animation file while using a different character's moveset files. So with your Bowser Jr. examples, Nausicaa:

1) Though they're both turtle-y Squirtle's body proportions are pretty different from Bowser Jr.'s and so each animation, even the mundane ones you hardly see, would have to be substantially modified to not look choppy and plain weird.

2) Using Bowser's animations as a base would likely be more suiting; with a very similar body shape I imagine the bulk of Bowser's animations to match just fine after fine-tuning translations to account for Jr.'s smaller size.

3) Bowser Jr. having Mario's moveset files could very well work; that'd mean he'd have access to FLUDD, fireball, cape, and Final Smash articles as well as inherit the coding behind Mario's specials and normals.

So theoretically you could start out Bowser Jr. with Mario's moveset and Bowser's animations and build from there. Keep in mind however that even with a solid base like this the workload that goes into animations and coding is immense (we're not joking when we say hundreds of hours!); this simply means the huge workload becomes only marginally less... huge. :p

This of course only scratches the surface on the exact requirements that factor into a character's selection but I hope it helps clear the air somewhat.
 

Time/SpaceMage

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Yeah I've got the GCN versions of Prime 1 and 2, though I just moved and I think they're in storage. I'll play through them eventually though - really dig the aspect of collecting scans and building a database to flip through.

I'm still curious as to how the PMBR will handle characters with no current announcer call (or MGS taunt for that matter, though I expect that isn't as big a concern considering Falco's is already inaccurate since he doesn't kick his reflector around any more). What happens when you try to do the hidden taunt with Roy?

Disregarding missing voices, nobody's mentioned Lip yet.
EDIT: And I totally just refreshed and didn't see Guru's post. Awesome though - thanks for clearing that up!
 

ChronoBound

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It seems every character choice has at least one person who disagrees with it. There are few that seem particularly divisive (Waluigi and additional Sonic characters).

The only one that I have seen no objections for that is popularly requested is Dixie Kong.
 

MLGF

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Yeah I've got the GCN versions of Prime 1 and 2, though I just moved and I think they're in storage. I'll play through them eventually though - really dig the aspect of collecting scans and building a database to flip through.

I'm still curious as to how the PMBR will handle characters with no current announcer call (or MGS taunt for that matter, though I expect that isn't as big a concern considering Falco's is already inaccurate since he doesn't kick his reflector around any more). What happens when you try to do the hidden taunt with Roy?

Disregarding missing voices, nobody's mentioned Lip yet.
EDIT: And I totally just refreshed and didn't see Guru's post. Awesome though - thanks for clearing that up!
Let's just ask David Hayter to do some lines for us.
He'd probably say "no" "yes"
 

F. Blue

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David Hayter impressions are pretty easy, I'm sure there's a decent sound-alike that would be willing to record for the game.
 

Skieth

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I really liked how brawl tried to make Falco less like a clone of Fox. I understand why PM did away with most of the changes, but I don't like when content gets wasted.

Most would agree that smash doesn't need more spacies, but Falco could be split into melee Falco and brawl Falco (with the unique aerials, dash, etc). Use the current melee falco moveset for Peppy or Slippy or Leon or James McCloud or anyone and BAM we've got a new character. If we've got seven slots to burn, idk why we wouldn't do this.
 

Giygacoal

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I heard that big-name voice actors work on contract and aren't allowed to do small stuff.
In the case of PM, Hayter wouldn't be paid, so it could be allowed.
Then again, he's probably too sad to reprise his role.
 

Nausicaa

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Thanks for answering that stuff so directly Gurukid. It for sure made sense of a lot of things people have been discussing in here.
The work-load is huge, and will always be huge, but I guess every little thing helps. The community is huge and getting bigger/better too. It's just the beginning, in a way. :)
 

BronzeGreekGod

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It seems every character choice has at least one person who disagrees with it. There are few that seem particularly divisive (Waluigi and additional Sonic characters).

The only one that I have seen no objections for that is popularly requested is Dixie Kong.

I dont think dixie would be a good idea.. lol
 

Generically Epic

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The forbidden 7 are most likely: Mewtwo, pichu, dixie, tetra/toon shiek, pluslie and minium.
Personally, I think shadow would be a great option, though the lack of projectiles would be meh... you could still make him a sonic clone, and give him less traction for awesome wavedashing.
 

Chzrm3

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3) Bowser Jr. having Mario's moveset files could very well work; that'd mean he'd have access to FLUDD, fireball, cape, and Final Smash articles as well as inherit the coding behind Mario's specials and normals.

So theoretically you could start out Bowser Jr. with Mario's moveset and Bowser's animations and build from there. Keep in mind however that even with a solid base like this the workload that goes into animations and coding is immense (we're not joking when we say hundreds of hours!); this simply means the huge workload becomes only marginally less... huge. :p

Thanks for that post, that was really interesting. : D This part in particular is really exciting to me.

So what would that look like, Bowser Jr. with Mario's moves and Bowser's animations? When he did forward Smash, would he look like he was doing Bowser's beefy Fsmash, but the actual hitbox would be Mario's fsmash? Or do a lot of the moves take priority, so that Bowser Jr. would run, jump, etc. like Bowser, but when he did Fsmash he'd push his hand forward the way Mario does?
 

Strong Badam

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Not actually true. I think more pressure came from outside PMBR Melee players than anywhere, but we stuck with what we had. Hell, even Silent Wolf likes his aerials a lot.
Yeah, pretty much everyone who actually plays Wolf loves him and the people that want to use Fox: Slightly Different Edition demand he be homogenized lol.
 

OrangeSodaGuy

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Yes so make him a skin and everyone's happy.

Pichu's body type is too different from Pikachu's to make him a skin. On top of that, I don't think it's really fair to argue that he shouldn't be in PM because he was "useless". Mewtwo and Roy weren't exactly top tier material in Melee either (heck, Roy isn't even top tier in *his own game*).
On top of that, it was a joke character-- Pichu being underpowered was kinda the point.

The "clone" argument isn't really fair either, since Roy was a clone.

Sometimes you just want that *one* hilariously dumb character you can troll everybody with. Project M is the PERFECT chance to rescue Pichu from the proverbial scrappy heap. I can see where you're coming from in regards to wanting to see characters from other games repped, though :/
 

shinhed-echi

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The forbidden 7 are most likely: Mewtwo, pichu, dixie, tetra/toon shiek, pluslie and minium.
Personally, I think shadow would be a great option, though the lack of projectiles would be meh... you could still make him a sonic clone, and give him less traction for awesome wavedashing.

I can get behind Shadow, if they make him play like Vanilla Sonic except with more knockback or faster animations. (A simple Sonic rebalance, instead of changing his moves completely), then I'm totally in favor. And I don't even like Shadow as much, but Sonic feels way too different for me to play as.
Regardless, PMBR did a great job with him.
 

ChronoBound

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Well in terms of specials for Dixie Kong, canonically, she now (in Tropical Freeze) has her own gun similar to Diddy Kong's peanut popgun, only her's shoots out gumballs (which makes sense since she chews and blows bubbles in her idle stances in Donkey Kong Country 2 and 3).

She also has a similar ground pound attack as Donkey Kong, only she pounds the ground with her hair.

Her recovery move could be like DK's, only her oversized ponytail spins instead of her arms (like the case with DK).

Finally, (this isn't new), Dixie Kong can use the Donkey Konga drums for her Final Smash since she has been a playable character in the Donkey Konga games.

So basically, Dixie Kong would be a character that is a combination of DK and Diddy, with some hair-attack A-moves.

Just some possible ideas for Dixie Kong for the team to throw around with.

As for other members of the Forbidden 7 becoming playable, Mewtwo most likely is the next character they are working to complete. Dr. Mario is already a costume.

Toon Zelda probably would not be received well. Toon Sheik technically does not qualify since she makes absolutely no appearance in Brawl (or any other official medium) aside from that character folder listing in Brawl's coding.

Pra_Mai causes debates as to what it actually is (personally I think its Plusle & Minun), however, considering that there in general is a lot of struggle with getting "pair" characters to work (look at how long it has taken the team to finish the Ice Climbers, and even Sakurai himself has mentioned struggling with these kinds of characters), it wouldn't be worth the effort, especially due to the miniscule amount of demand for them (as well as the sentiment, that after Mewtwo, there will be more than enough playable Pokemon).

I think the only ones of the Forbidden 7 that need to be playable are Mewtwo, Roy (already happened), Dixie Kong, and Dr. Mario (who already exists as a costume that can throw his pills).
 

GuruKid

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Thanks for that post, that was really interesting. : D This part in particular is really exciting to me.

So what would that look like, Bowser Jr. with Mario's moves and Bowser's animations? When he did forward Smash, would he look like he was doing Bowser's beefy Fsmash, but the actual hitbox would be Mario's fsmash? Or do a lot of the moves take priority, so that Bowser Jr. would run, jump, etc. like Bowser, but when he did Fsmash he'd push his hand forward the way Mario does?


When you use an original character's moveset file the clone character would use ALL of that character's animations for each action he/she does. So yeah in the above example for FSmash Bowser Jr. would use Bowser's animation (the headbutt) but the move's properties (hitboxes, sound and graphic effects, IASA window, rumble timings, etc) would all be Mario's since you took his moveset file as a base. So by default the move likely would appear and behave very oddly (Mario's fire explosion and sound would not be in sync with the headbutt, for example) so you'd have to go in and manually adjust these attributes to make it sensible. Same applies for his run, jump... every action would use Bowser's animations but Mario's coding.

Realistically you'd have to change each and every attack and most actions to accommodate for the different animations no matter what. Again one of the main reasons to choose a character's moveset file as a base would be for hijacking their unique specials and articles into the new character's moveset (in this case maybe using Mario's fireball article for use as Jr.'s own version of fire breath, and hijacking the FLUDD article to operate as a mini Bullet Bill Blaster... stuff like that.)
 

ChronoBound

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The only two characters I would say would be worth the effort to making entirely from scratch (mainly non-clone) would be Mewtwo and Ridley (and the latter only if he fails to make it into Smash 4). Everyone else (other potential Project M newcomers) I feel needs to be a character that must be able to find their base through another character on the roster.

Also, I have brought up the idea of Pico as a possible Snake clone. Personally, this guy is my favorite F-Zero pilot, but I don't think the rest of the Smash Bros. community would be fond of him due to his relative obscurity (but everytime people get to know him, he instantly becomes a favorite). He is one of the four original F-Zero pilots to the series, and canonically uses real world weapons:

Pico's backstory was that he was a member of his planet's elite special forces. He eventually retired and became a F-Zero pilot (who is notorious in the F-Zero universe for his extremely aggressive driving style, of which caused a giant accident which killed and injured many other pilots, which almost got the sport banned). He still operates as a hitman outside the F-Zero Grand Prix. He also likes to collect knives, to which Pico remarks "cut so well...". He is the only non-villain pilot that Mr. Zero (the guy who interviews the pilot who wins the Grand Prix) is terrified of.

Pico was a trophy in Brawl so he technically qualifies. Though as cool as he would be, people would be wondering how he got in over Black Shadow or Samurai Goroh. He may not be as important as those two, but he might be the next in line after them (alongside Dr. Stewart).

Edit:
Hahaha, looked at the comments for the video and this was the top one:
why isnt pico in brawl?!?! (33 likes)
 

Anti Guy

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Want to take me up on this bet?

I would not be surprised if Lyn one of the first two new fighters introduced after Mewtwo is unveiled.

Secondly, only you have been putting up a big stink about my Sami idea. Back when I first proposed it, I received like six likes for the idea.

Like I said, I am working on a massive project piece for what newcomers would have the potential to be both the most feasible and the most positively received. Once I finish it, I will elaborate more on Sami.

However, as I said before, its seems the beef about Sami is mostly coming from you (and to a lesser extent NZA who wants a Famicom Wars character that is not a clone of Snake).

Lots of people like the idea, and I think she is definitely going to be postively received as a newcomer.

I would love to see two series receive playable characters from the six remaining slots.

Isaac of course would be a top priority.
Two more, actually: one for and one against. Aside from that, it seems like no one else really gives a ****.


Very much agreed on that last sentence. It's a tad saddening that a Nintendo series with this many installments - 12 - is still largely ignored for Smash.


As for Sami: I quite like her, but I don't think she's very recognizable. When it comes down to it, Sami appeared only in three of the games, as a side character. No, I think there's a better pick:




No, I'm not kidding. I even made a thread on the SSB4 Character boards eons ago because I'd love to see him.
Sami would be a really interesting pick honestly, As it would add another unique franchise into brawl's character roster.
The only problem I see with her is voice clips, though I think Project M could scout out voice actors/actresses for any character they chose who has no voice clips of their own.
Pichu's body type is too different from Pikachu's to make him a skin. On top of that, I don't think it's really fair to argue that he shouldn't be in PM because he was "useless". Mewtwo and Roy weren't exactly top tier material in Melee either (heck, Roy isn't even top tier in *his own game*).
On top of that, it was a joke character-- Pichu being underpowered was kinda the point.

The "clone" argument isn't really fair either, since Roy was a clone.

Sometimes you just want that *one* hilariously dumb character you can troll everybody with. Project M is the PERFECT chance to rescue Pichu from the proverbial scrappy heap. I can see where you're coming from in regards to wanting to see characters from other games repped, though :/
Yeah, it's a chance to rescue Pichu, but... enough Pokemon is enough. We went from 4 in Melee to 6 CURRENTLY in P:M, and that would be 7 with Mewtwo. 8 is beyond overkill. I think it's better to use that time and effort on other cloneable characters, like Dark Samus from Samus if you're gonna do a clone anyways, especially given how controversial Pichu is in the first place. Are they really gonna spend 700 hours on a character to troll with?
 

ChronoBound

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Two more, actually: one for and one against. Aside from that, it seems like no one else really gives a ****.
http://smashboards.com/threads/clone-engine-is-real-discussion-thread.340443/page-13#post-15890890

Five people liked this pro-Sami post.

Regardless, I think making one of the characters a clone of Snake would be a wise choice, whether it be Sami, Pico, or Andy.

As for Dark Samus, the only reason I am hesitant on her is due to Ridley's own uncertain status for the actual Smash 4. If Ridley does get confirmed as a newcomer for Smash 4, then Dark Samus should be Project M's Metroid newcomer. If Ridley ends up being de-confirmed for Smash 4, the Project M team should make a playable Ridley a reality.
 

Tuvillo

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Why in the world would you add Sami over anyone else?

That's like having Tails over Sonic simply because you'd have an easier time thinking up a moveset.
 

ChronoBound

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Why in the world would you add Sami over anyone else?
The only other character you could argue is more important is Andy. Otherwise, Sami is basically Lyn. Lyn had little importance to the plot of FE7 outside of the tutorial.

Heck, the FE7 trio analogy lines of pretty well.

Eliwood/Andy: Most important guy overall. The more boyish male.
Max/Hector: Manly dude with muscles/strength.
Sami/Lyn: The chick.
 

Anti Guy

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The only other character you could argue is more important is Andy. Otherwise, Sami is basically Lyn. Lyn had little importance to the plot of FE7 outside of the tutorial.

Heck, the FE7 trio analogy lines of pretty well.

Eliwood/Andy: Most important guy overall. The more boyish male.
Max/Hector: Manly dude with muscles/strength.
Sami/Lyn: The chick.

I don't get why you keep bringing up FE7 as your argument for Sami. It's not like she's made the cut or something and therefore you can compare to her, which would then be a completely different story. I am not advocating Lyn either. As you said, she had little importance to the plot of FE7 outside of the tutorial, little importance to the series, and little importance to Nintendo in the grand scheme of things. So your argument for Sami shouldn't be Lyn... because she's not even in either!

And there's a good reason why no one mentions Eliwood. Being Roy's dad, he's virtually a carbon copy.
 

ChronoBound

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So your argument for Sami shouldn't be Lyn... because she's not even in either!

And there's a good reason why no one mentions Eliwood. Being Roy's dad, he's virtually a carbon copy.
Eliwood's strong similarities to Roy is part of the reason why he was barely requested during pre-Brawl. Like you said having both Roy and Eliwood would be redundant.

As for Lyn, she is definitely the most highly requested of the FE7 trio for a playable spot despite her lack of storyline importance relative to Hector/Eliwood. Sometimes popularity is enough (I suspect that may have been the reason why she even got in as an Assist Trophy).

However, I think the reaction to Lyn (if she added in), might provide with more confidence on adding someone like Sami. Personally, I think she would have the most positive reaction of any potential Advance Wars character they could possibly put in (which is simply limited to characters that appeared as stickers in Brawl).

Like I said, a Snake clone offers a lot of potential to be a character that is very positively received.
 

Anti Guy

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If you rely so much on Lyn for inspiration, there are two things that she has that Sami lacks:

1) Her series is already represented by their two biggest characters, Marth and Ike. Once you bypass the main character hurdle, people don't care as much about who gets in after. But the main character hurdle hasn't been bypassed for Advance Wars.

2) Her own game's main character is already essentially covered for by Roy. The same doesn't apply for Sami.

Also, it seems that being able to fit a clone character (she should be in BECAUSE she fits Snake's moveset, essentially) is more important to you than the actual value of the character itself... It should be a combination of both.
 

ChronoBound

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Maybe we should have a vote for who the Advance Wars character should be. The series definitely deserves a playable character, no doubt about that.

I am sure the Project M team (if they are contemplating an Advance Wars slot) would be up for that.

Personally, I think Sami would be more appealing.

However, we can ignore Advance Wars altogether, and simply add Pico as the Snake clone. :awesome:

Also, another problem with the "main character hurdle" is that Andy is not popular.
 

Anti Guy

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Maybe we should have a vote for who the Advance Wars character should be. The series definitely deserves a playable character, no doubt about that.

I am sure the Project M team (if they are contemplating an Advance Wars slot) would be up for that.

Personally, I think Sami would be more appealing.

However, we can ignore Advance Wars altogether, and simply add Pico as the Snake clone. :awesome:

Also, another problem with the "main character hurdle" is that Andy is not popular.

A vote works for me. And like I said in a previous post, I'm more advocating Andy as a unique character made up of animations and attacks from current characters. It's not like we need a Snake clone.
 

ChronoBound

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It's not like we need a Snake clone.
I think another variation of Snake's moveset would be one of the freshest possible straight clone choices. Personally, I though Snake's moveset was one of the most interesting ones in Brawl, so I would like to see a Nintendo character that could plausibly take it add their own spin to it.

Pico though probably wouldn't be that different from Snake in terms of stats though (speed, weight, possibly power). However, Falco/Fox are not night/day different in terms of speed, weight, and power, yet they play very differently.
 

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We're talking about adding characters? Why not refer to characters that were trophies (Doshin the Giant, Waddle Dee, Ray MK III, Tabuu(???), Issac).
 

ChronoBound

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We're talking about adding characters? Why not refer to characters that were trophies (Doshin the Giant, Waddle Dee, Ray MK III, Tabuu(???), Issac).
The Project M team has said characters that only appeared as stickers are just as eligible as characters that only appeared as trophies.

An example of this is Roy, who did not have a trophy, but did have a sticker (as well as a song with his name in the title, and possibly if counts, a character file folder with his name).

The only characters that are not eligible are those that did not make any appearance at all in Brawl, which rules out all third-party character except those from Metal Gear and Sonic, Geno (though technically he is third-party), several FE lords (Alm, Cellica, Sigurd, Celice, Leaf, Chrom, Lucina), Shulk, and Mike Jones.
 

Shadow Huan

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http://smashboards.com/threads/clone-engine-is-real-discussion-thread.340443/page-13#post-15890890

As for Dark Samus, the only reason I am hesitant on her is due to Ridley's own uncertain status for the actual Smash 4. If Ridley does get confirmed as a newcomer for Smash 4, then Dark Samus should be Project M's Metroid newcomer. If Ridley ends up being de-confirmed for Smash 4, the Project M team should make a playable Ridley a reality.
I almost never find myself disagreeing with what you post, and it isn't happening now either. as much as i push for Dark Samus, and would love to play as it (so long as it had the right feel/moveset), Ridley is more important... assuming he doesn't get announced for Smash 4.

it he does, bring on the Darkness lol :)
 

MLGF

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We should all stop requesting Mewtwo now.
He's obviously not getting in.
 
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