Clone Engine Misc. Discussion Thread

[The_NZA]

You are pretty alone there.

You basically did nothing to refute me.

You just called me childish and flung sand at me.

How shocking. HE DID THE SAME **** TO ME!

You might call it immature, but I condensed every polarizing aspect of Shadow in that post. As much as you may want to cover your ears and yell that I'm being "immature as crap", you can't take away the fact that that post IS an argument for why Shadow shouldn't be in the game.

Name me one other character in the smash universe as disliked as Shadow the Hedgehog (even if Shadow the Hedgehog is also liked by many who will graduate college in 2016+). He is a polarizing figure, and that's not a good thing.

 

[F. Blue]

Cares way too much about this.

Look dude, as much as I like Megaman X, I wouldn't want Nintendo to add Zero to Smash 4 because that series is third party and already has a rep. Project M tries to maintain a degree of professionalism so the same logic should apply.

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

All they said, is that they can add a MAXIMUM of seven additional characters (one of which includes Roy). So that is a MAXIMUM of six additional characters that were not originally playable in Brawl.

They never said that we would get seven additional fighters, just that there is the potential for it.

Ah ok great to know.. now I'd narrow down my list greatly.
Heres my new list from most importance to least:

1. Mewtwo - I mean we're all pretty sure hes making a comeback, and he would be the most important/logical character to make a return

2. Black Shadow with Ganondorf's current move set (Thus giving Ganondorf his own moves set) - In this case actually, the new Ganondorf would probably be taking a clone space because he may need to be created from scratch using another character as the base. Black shadow would just be Ganondorfs new skin, and they may need to change a couple of GFX and SFX

3. Isaak - He would be such a great addition, and his moves set would be so diverse and also everything Antiguy said.

4. Ray (custom robo) - This guy would be so cool, and I loved the custom robo franchise. I feel it needs to be represented much better in a brawl game and i really hope Ray (and Isaak) make it in Smash WiiU. Rays moves could consist of really cool bombs, machine gun and energy attacks that would create a really fun and diverse moves set. And for those of you who want Megaman in P:M real bad, I know Ray isn't the same, but hes got a bunch of cool similar tools.

5. Sukapon - I actually didn't even know much about this guy until Antiguy's post about him. But I immediately decided that he'd be an amazing addition. I'm actually like 99% sure they're gona add him in Smash WiiU.

6. Ridley OR Dark Samus - Simple as this, we need another Metroid character, like comon! Dark Samus would obviously be the easier one to do so perhaps that is more likely, but Ridley is doable too (starting with Charizard as a base). There's already some decent Ridley hacks online. And the whole size debate shouldn't even be a debate. He can be the size of Bowser, problem solved. No characters in the game are to scale, so its fine if Ridley is slightly off too.

Other possibilities:

Andy (AW), Saki (din and punishment) or Waluigi - I'm having trouble deciding between these 3 because they're all last on my list, and I'm a little bit more indifferent to all of them. Waluigi could be a fun character to play as, I have seen some cool hacks of him, but I think he'd be last on my list. Andy and Saki would both be totally different and interesting additions. I know much less about them, but I have a good feeling about them. I don't know who to pick between the two. But in any case these last 3 are kinda my choices if any of the above don't make it in.

 

[Veishi336]

Im actually completely into the issac idea. His moveset would be nice as well. A mix between a sword and all his powers...im kinda thinking all his sword moves or MOVE would be a special attack using b.

 

[Xenozoa425]

Again, Dark Samus as a Samus/Spacie hybrid, would be so legit to play as. You have no idea how good an opportunity this is to give Metroid the representation it so rightfully deserved in this game. I don't think Ridley would make a good and unique character, and not because of his size.

 

[ChronoBound]

Dark Samus would make a good choice assuming Ridley makes it into Smash 4.

However, if Ridley does fail to make it into Smash 4, they definitely need to at least look into making Ridley playable.

I can't think of another Nintendo character from a veteran franchise that is as important/iconic as Ridley, that has not been made playable yet.

I say overall, that the Project M team should work to add Mewtwo, Lyn, Isaac, andSami for now, and leave the remaining two slots blank for the time being.

I think perhaps they should hold off until after Smash 4 is released before deciding the last slot.

 

[Shadow Huan]

Again, Dark Samus as a Samus/Spacie hybrid, would be so legit to play as. You have no idea how good an opportunity this is to give Metroid the representation it so rightfully deserved in this game. I don't think Ridley would make a good and unique character, and not because of his size.

I think that they could both work, it will depend on Ridley making it into Smash 4.

I would only have Dark Samus share a few animations with Samus though; Wolf style is the way to go. DS is a much more savage and brutal fighter, at least in Prime 2

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

Again, Dark Samus as a Samus/Spacie hybrid, would be so legit to play as. You have no idea how good an opportunity this is to give Metroid the representation it so rightfully deserved in this game. I don't think Ridley would make a good and unique character, and not because of his size.

Ya I agree about Dark Samus, she (or whatever) would be fantastic.
But I think Ridley has potential too. If you look at the prime series as a basis, there are a bunch of moves you could take from there and make them work in interesting ways.

On another note, the picture of Ivy - saur made me wana bring this up.
I really wish there was a character who could use some of Ivy's moves as inspiration for a move set (Scorpion and Kratos could also be inspiration for this type of move set). Originally I was hoping that was what they would to with Zerosuit samus, but that never happened. I think she would have been the best fit because there's no one else who uses a whip/grappling type weapon as much as her. Besides ivysaur, but I dont think she'd be a good fit.
Makes me sad

 

[The_NZA]

I love Lyn, but do we really need 4 representatives from Fire Emblem? Also, I am URGING people to not make Andy a Snake clone.

 

[ChronoBound]

Also, I am URGING people to not make Andy a Snake clone.

Yeah, especially considering we have much better choices for a Snake clone such as Sami or Pico.

Seriously, Andy using Snake's weapons would seem really off.

 

[The_NZA]

No one is responding to my idea of making Andy play a bit like Jill Valentine (or maybe striker) from MvC2. He could summon a tank, infantry man, or plane (using some of the assets from the advanced wars assist trophy). How sick would that be?

 

[Anti Guy]

No one is responding to my idea of making Andy play a bit like Jill Valentine (or maybe striker) from MvC2. He could summon a tank, infantry man, or plane (using some of the assets from the advanced wars assist trophy). How sick would that be?

Because realism. I highly doubt you can expect the PMBR to pull all of that out from nowhere. People start getting carried away by ideas here, but you have to keep it within in the scope of what's humanly possible. I'd think 1-2 non-clone characters would be more than enough, and that the rest of the slots be filled with clones.

Yeah, especially considering we have much better choices for a Snake clone such as Sami or Pico.


Seriously, Andy using Snake's weapons would seem really off.

You still haven't given a good reason why Sami should be in over Andy, other than she's supposedly just as important as Andy in Black Hole Rising (which, btw, is a game that strives to give all the COs equal playing time). You're essentially arguing for having Luigi before Mario, Alm before Marth, or Diddy Kong before Donkey Kong

 

[OrangeSodaGuy]

Dark Samus would make a good choice assuming Ridley makes it into Smash 4.

However, if Ridley does fail to make it into Smash 4, they definitely need to at least look into making Ridley playable.

I can't think of another Nintendo character from a veteran franchise that is as important/iconic as Ridley, that has not been made playable yet.

I say overall, that the Project M team should work to add Mewtwo, Lyn, Isaac, andSami for now, and leave the remaining two slots blank for the time being.

I think perhaps they should hold off until after Smash 4 is released before deciding the last slot.

I would probably throw Pichu back in before getting into Mewtwo, Lyn, Isaac, etc.

Young Link and Doc basically fusion-ha'd with Toon Link and Mario-- not to mention that Doc is a costume.
Mewtwo is a must-have now that the clone engine is a reality.
Roy is a lock to appear in Project M.

Pichu's the only member of the Melee crew who's left out-- as some have mentioned, Pikachu never inherited much of anything that makes Pichu unique, and retooling Pichu to make him more of a trolltacular high-risk/high-reward character could prove to be way more fun and interesting than people would predict. I will wholeheartedly concede that adding anymore Pokemon besides Mewtwo/Pichu would be utter overkill-- they'll already be pushing it with Mewtwo. Joke characters need love too ;__;

I can imagine it would be a lot less work for the PMBR than having to code a bunch of entirely new animatons/specials for characters who were never playable to begin with. But correct me if I'm wrong on that.

 

[ChronoBound]

You're essentially arguing for having Luigi before Mario, Alm before Marth, or Diddy Kong before Donkey Kong

Or having Lyn before Hector/Eliwood.

She is a lot more feasible than Andy would be in being a Snake clone.

How about this?

Let's let the crowd decide who between us is right?

You make a post about Andy being a good choice for a Snake clone. I will make a post about Sami being a Snake clone. And let Smashers decide who overall would be the better choice for a Snake clone.

But remember, after the results are in. No Johns.

 

[ChronoBound]

No one is responding to my idea of making Andy play a bit like Jill Valentine (or maybe striker) from MvC2. He could summon a tank, infantry man, or plane (using some of the assets from the advanced wars assist trophy). How sick would that be?

That would require way too much work for a character that is barely requested at all.

 

[shinhed-echi]

Are people suggesting clone/semiclone ideas for P:M? ...

OK!

Question, can you port ANY attack from ANY character into a new clone character?
(Think Emerl from Sonic Battle)
Or does the clones character keeps strictly the moves from the character he/she was cloned of?


I'd basically suggest anybody who isn't playable in SSB4.

-Tails / Knuckles / Shadow (Sonic clone)
-Palutena (Zelda clone)
-Paula (Ness clone)
-Jody Summers (Captain Falcon)
-Dark Samus (Samus)
-Melissa [Other M[ (Zero Suit Samus)
-Krystal (Ike) ((a fast version of Ike))

All I can think of for now. ñ_ñ
But really.. for Project M? Any secondary character that I wouldn't want taking a slot in SSB4, lol
Daisy, Waluigi.. anything!

 

[Xenozoa425]

I would only have Dark Samus share a few animations with Samus though; Wolf style is the way to go. DS is a much more savage and brutal fighter, at least in Prime 2

Oh yeah... forgot that Wolf isn't technically a spacie, haha.

But I totally agree, Dark Samus in my mind would basically be a savage, faster, less floatier Samus that relies on the technical and combo oriented gameplay that Fox/Falco/Wolf/Lucas all share, utilizing her Phazon and other abilities in various ways and properties.

 

[Vashimus]

Oh yeah... forgot that Wolf isn't technically a spacie, haha.

Apparently the PMBR considered changing some of Wolf aerials to match Fox and Falco's more, and Wolf players got angry and said "NO! Wolf's aerials are FINE" lol

 

[Shadow Huan]

as long as the moveset for Dark Samus isn't terrible like some of them I've seen preposed... though besides specials lifted from the Prime games I don't have many ideas.

you could take all those attacks from the links I posted last page and incorperate them, with room to spare, some would be harder than others though lol. for some reason I keep thinking that some attack animations from certain characters in Injustice would work really well on Dark Samus... such as Batman's strong roundhouse kick... just throwing that out there lol


reguardless, I have the same opinion of a potental Dark Samus as i do of a potental buffed and reworked Mewtwo.

Hard to master, but really rewarding and quite effective when used properly. and both of them should pack some serious power lol

also Wolf is indeed fine, in concept. probably needs a few more tweaks, but he is the reasonible spacie, and should stay that way lol

 

[Shadic]

Apparently the PMBR considered changing some of Wolf aerials to match Fox and Falco's more, and Wolf players got angry and said "NO! Wolf's aerials are FINE" lol

Not actually true. I think more pressure came from outside PMBR Melee players than anywhere, but we stuck with what we had. Hell, even Silent Wolf likes his aerials a lot.

 

[Time/SpaceMage]

I haven't read too much on Dark Samus, but that's one heckuva unfortunate name. She could be the most original character in the world(s), but it's still gonna lampshade her origin.
...Hey Shadic, is Alakadoof gonna have a mega evolution? =P

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

I would probably throw Pichu back in before getting into Mewtwo, Lyn, Isaac, etc.

Young Link and Doc basically fusion-ha'd with Toon Link and Mario-- not to mention that Doc is a costume.
Mewtwo is a must-have now that the clone engine is a reality.
Roy is a lock to appear in Project M.

Pichu's the only member of the Melee crew who's left out-- as some have mentioned, Pikachu never inherited much of anything that makes Pichu unique, and retooling Pichu to make him more of a trolltacular high-risk/high-reward character could prove to be way more fun and interesting than people would predict. I will wholeheartedly concede that adding anymore Pokemon besides Mewtwo/Pichu would be utter overkill-- they'll already be pushing it with Mewtwo. Joke characters need love too ;__;

I can imagine it would be a lot less work for the PMBR than having to code a bunch of entirely new animatons/specials for characters who were never playable to begin with. But correct me if I'm wrong on that.

I really think Pichu should just be a skin.. and i hope thats what happens. I see your points, but Im pretty sure no one wants anything to do with Pichu lol
Completely useless character. (this is not to put down anything you're saying, thats just how i feel)

 

[SpiderMad]

I really think Pichu should just be a skin.. and i hope thats what happens. I see your points, but Im pretty sure no one wants anything to do with Pichu lol
Completely useless character. (this is not to put down anything you're saying, thats just how i feel)

I love Pichu. The only problem is he's 2x cuter and cooler than Pikachu and nobody would want to play Pikachu with a buffed Pichu

 

[Shadow Huan]

I haven't read too much on Dark Samus, but that's one heckuva unfortunate name. She could be the most original character in the world(s), but it's still gonna lampshade her origin.
...Hey Shadic, is Alakadoof gonna have a mega evolution? =P

not knowing where Dark Samus came from probably means that you have not played the Metroid Prime trilogy, and for that I feel bad for you.

I don't know if I should spoil it lol

 

[Time/SpaceMage]

I got Prime 1 and 2, but haven't really sat down to play them. It's fine, there aren't too many games I care about getting spoiled for. I did like Super Metroid a lot, though I'm more a Mario fan and the last time I was playing games I was working on playing through Super Demo World.

 

[Anti Guy]

Or having Lyn before Hector/Eliwood.

She is a lot more feasible than Andy would be in being a Snake clone.

How about this?

Let's let the crowd decide who between us is right?

You make a post about Andy being a good choice for a Snake clone. I will make a post about Sami being a Snake clone. And let Smashers decide who overall would be the better choice for a Snake clone.

But remember, after the results are in. No Johns.

You still didn't answer the biggest question of why Sami deserves a spot more than Andy, the main character of the series, other than she fits being a "Snake clone," better, which is IMO hardly valid. You can pull a secondary character from any series and say they're a good clone... for example one of the other original robots in Joy Mech Fight that have more normal animations and make them a clone of say Mario.

And I don't care enough to make a post about Andy being a good choice for a Snake clone because I'm not too big on the idea anyways. The more I think about it, the less feasible any Snake clone seems to be because of all the projectiles.

What I would rather do is have Andy be a kind of amalgamation character... kinda using Ness/Lucas as a base. His Up B can use Snake's Nikita animation, but he can blow himself up like a PK Thunder and look like an idiot in the process. He can use his wrench instead of a bat. His other smashes would steal from other characters (like Marth's down-smash, wrenchified), etc. Maybe his B could be a modified Ice Climbers B where he sends tanks forward. Maybe his Down B could be a modified Wario Waft where after a long enough time, he starts glowing and can use Hyper Repair, where he heals himself and increases his speed for a short duration.

(You also keep mentioning Lyn, but like I said, I don't think she's worth it either given we already have 3 Fire Emblem characters now. Do you think the PMBR is gonna spend their time making TWO Fire emblem characters out of the 7 slots?)

 

[Vigilante]

...Hey Shadic, is Alakadoof gonna have a mega evolution? =P

Alakadoof IS the Mega evolution.

 

[Shadow Huan]

I got Prime 1 and 2, but haven't really sat down to play them. It's fine, there aren't too many games I care about getting spoiled for. I did like Super Metroid a lot, though I'm more a Mario fan and the last time I was playing games I was working on playing through Super Demo World.

I would reccommend to play at least the first one, it is well worth the time. one of the best games on GameCube (easily top 3) and introduces the most powerful creature in the Metroid series

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

I love Pichu. The only problem is he's 2x cuter and cooler than Pikachu and nobody would want to play Pikachu with a buffed Pichu

Yes so make him a skin and everyone's happy.

 

[Xenozoa425]

He won't work as a skin, though. The hitboxes won't match the model.

But when you think about it, Brawl Pikachu IS Melee Pichu... dem goggles.

 

[Vigilante]

Metroid Prime 1 is good, but I suggest getting the Gamecube version for good controls. 3 is awful.

And yeah, Pichu's body type is too different from Pikachu's to be a skin. Although as far as I'm concerned, I always viewed project M Pikachu as an evolved Pichu from Melee.

Pikachu can't learn Volt Tackle unless he starts off as Pichu (final smash)

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

He won't work as a skin, though. The hitboxes won't match the model.

But when you think about it, Brawl Pikachu IS Melee Pichu... dem goggles.

Well im not sure how the costume engine works.. but they said they can change a lot about the character without a complete overhaul.. so maybe the hitboxes can be altered too?

 

[HyperrCrow]

Well im not sure how the costume engine works.. but they said they can change a lot about the character without a complete overhaul.. so maybe the hitboxes can be altered too?

True, but that would just be odd. We'd end up with one of two results.
One: A really big and chubby Pichu that wouldn't look like him at all.
Two: A perfect Pichu model with with hurtboxes as big as Pikachu, and that would suck big time.

 

[The_NZA]

I would like to once again echo the sentiment that Sami/Andy being a Snake clone is the stupidest most boring idea to do with a character from that franchise. You don't need to captain falconize a character when they have such rich source material to draw from. The mascot from that franchise's gimmick is building units and bringing them to battle.

The only thing I could really see myself approving of is a Brawl Snake Fsmash. One nikita missile is really enough for this game.

 

[Xenozoa425]

Well im not sure how the costume engine works.. but they said they can change a lot about the character without a complete overhaul.. so maybe the hitboxes can be altered too?

Dr. Mario in Project M doesn't change anything about Mario, in terms of physics. He is literally just Mario in a doctor's outfit. His pills have the same exact damage, trajectory, and everything else as the fireballs, just with a different look and sound. His cape is white instead of yellow. His Fsmash uses electricity instead of fire. None of these changes actually affect the gameplay itself, they're just cosmetics and visual effects.

Pichu simply won't work over Pikachu. They are 2 completely different sized characters. Same goes to Young Link, he has different proportions than Toon Link.

 

[SpiderMad]

Although as far as I'm concerned, I always viewed project M Pikachu as an evolved Pichu from Melee.

I could try to pull that same stuff on Roy to Marth, Pichu's characteristics don't see anymore light in P:M Pikachu than Melee Pikachu

 

[Nausicaa]

I'd like to know more details on what actually effects the ease-of-transfer.

Like, with Roy, Marth could be used as a base. What exactly ABOUT Marth (whether it's files, model, specific to animations, or base stats, or whatever) makes it easy to use. Overall they're not 'too' far off from each-other, but for example, what's easier/different/more difficult between these? 1) Bowser Jr. having Squirtle-like moves (Shell-based animations with a Shell-model) or 2) Bowser Jr. having Bowser's model (Exact model can be used and Squirtle-like moves animated/imported) or 3) Bower Jr. having Mario moveset data (game-play functions/stats/etc similar to him, custom/imported models and animations with it)

What factors into the whole 'using existing content as a base' anyway?

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

Dr. Mario in Project M doesn't change anything about Mario, in terms of physics. He is literally just Mario in a doctor's outfit. His pills have the same exact damage, trajectory, and everything else as the fireballs, just with a different look and sound. His cape is white instead of yellow. His Fsmash uses electricity instead of fire. None of these changes actually affect the gameplay itself, they're just cosmetics and visual effects.

Pichu simply won't work over Pikachu. They are 2 completely different sized characters. Same goes to Young Link, he has different proportions than Toon Link.

Yes but (again i couldbe wrong) if they can change SFX and GFX cand they also change positions of hit boxes? Also theres a way to shrink a single slot character model which works pretty well and I havent noticed anything weird using that method in my size hacks. So i duno, it might be doable. Again could be wrong, not looking to debate here

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

Dr. Mario in Project M doesn't change anything about Mario, in terms of physics. He is literally just Mario in a doctor's outfit. His pills have the same exact damage, trajectory, and everything else as the fireballs, just with a different look and sound. His cape is white instead of yellow. His Fsmash uses electricity instead of fire. None of these changes actually affect the gameplay itself, they're just cosmetics and visual effects.

Pichu simply won't work over Pikachu. They are 2 completely different sized characters. Same goes to Young Link, he has different proportions than Toon Link.

Yes but (again i couldbe wrong) if they can change SFX and GFX cand they also change positions of hit boxes? Also theres a way to shrink a single slot character model which works pretty well and I havent noticed anything weird using that method in my size hacks. So i duno, it might be doable. Again could be wrong, not looking to debate here

 

[Friesnchip]

Yes but (again i couldbe wrong) if they can change SFX and GFX cand they also change positions of hit boxes? Also theres a way to shrink a single slot character model which works pretty well and I havent noticed anything weird using that method in my size hacks. So i duno, it might be doable. Again could be wrong, not looking to debate here

Changing hit-boxes would change the entire character, regardless of costume choice. Besides, if this was possible, everything would be different.

Having different hit-boxes changes everything, it wouldn't be the same character. Pikachu is Pikachu; Pichu is Pichu.