Clone Engine Misc. Discussion Thread

[lancereed]

You didn't give him an up-air or dash attack, just so you know.

Never having played S&P, that moveset does sound fun, and like a character I'd play sometimes!

hey i'm new to here and know about history of smash bros. and stuff btw if anybody (icluding you Hero_42) wan't to play project m online just email me your friend code and i'll send you mines back email is ultimateronsu17@gmail.com thanks ^_^

 

[Solbliminal]

I think I will make a presentation for Shadow. I know there is a lot of hate for him, but likewise he is an eligible candidate and it is only fair I get to a chance to prove his worth for a slot.

 

[AnOkayDM]

I'll try to get around to making a moveset for Paper Mario!

 

[Solbliminal]

I'll try to get around to making a moveset for Paper Mario!

If you can, try to reference each of the Paper Mario games. It would make for an interesting moveset.

 

[AnOkayDM]

If you can, try to reference each of the Paper Mario games. It would make for an interesting moveset.

I'll do my best. No promises on Sticker Star though. I never finished that one because I didn't like it much. >_<

 

[Time/SpaceMage]

Hmm, this could be fun... never done a moveset before.
You know what would be really awesome? We should add links to the best posts in the OP.

 

[Anti Guy]

On a side note, since people were arguing about Waluigi... If you guys haven't played this game, go play it. It's probably the best Mario fan game I've played yet. If Waluigi were to somehow make it in (and again, I think the only way that's possible is by using what MarioKing64DS has already put tons of effort in), it'd be pretty neat if one of his moves was based on his psychic power from that game as a tribute from one fan project to another.

 

[RPGsFTW]

On a side note, since people were arguing about Waluigi... If you guys haven't played this game, go play it. It's probably the best Mario fan game I've played yet. If Waluigi were to somehow make it in (and again, I think the only way that's possible is by using what MarioKing64DS has already put tons of effort in), it'd be pretty neat if one of his moves was based on his psychic power from that game as a tribute from one fan project to another.

I've actually heard of Psycho Waluigi before, and I have indeed played it a little. It's pretty cool. Though, to be honest, I think the psychic power thing covers too much area in front of Waluigi and makes it a bit easy for him.

 

[AnOkayDM]

I've actually heard of Psycho Waluigi before, and I have indeed played it a little. It's pretty cool. Though, to be honest, I think the psychic power thing covers too much area in front of Waluigi and makes it a bit easy for him.

Hey man, just wanted to say sorry about getting all in your face about Waluigi. If you like him, that's cool. =)

 

[Solbliminal]

On a side note, since people were arguing about Waluigi... If you guys haven't played this game, go play it. It's probably the best Mario fan game I've played yet. If Waluigi were to somehow make it in (and again, I think the only way that's possible is by using what MarioKing64DS has already put tons of effort in), it'd be pretty neat if one of his moves was based on his psychic power from that game as a tribute from one fan project to another.

I've actually played this before. It would be a neat little thing for a throw animation. I do wish Waluigi would appear in some Wario games honestly. As for the people saying his moveset couldn't be composed from party games, look at the cast of Mario characters. None of them really reference elements of the party game series (other than the one instance where Peach pulls out a tennis racket, which hardly is a reference in itself). Waluigi is a good candidate for this because he was introduced in a party/sports game. I can definitely see him doing a lot of those party gimmicks for an entire moveset.

 

[EdgeTheLucas]

Yeah I totally support Waluigi BECAUSE there's not a whole lot for him to work with. I mean look at Captain Falcon and all of the Starfox and Fire Emblem characters--there was NOTHING to work off of for any of them and it forced the original Smash teams to just think of them in a fighting game environment. Rather than worrying about how they were going to incorporate references to their games in their moves, they made them fighting game characters from the ground up. Now all of those characters (including yes, as of Project M, Ike and Wolf) are superpopular because of how good they are! So if the PM team got creative about what KIND of fighter this mod should get, using Waluigi could allow for a lot of creativity

 

[shinhed-echi]

To be brutally honest, I too would choose Waluigi over Paper Mario, but that's just because I hate duplicate characters. XD

Of course, ideally, I'd prefer that any character added would represent either a dropped character from Melee, or underrepresented/non-represented franchises.

 

[Fortress]

EDIT: Wow, sorry to just drop this huge block of text into the Waluigi discussion. I was in the midst of typing and brainstorming when all of that was going on, so, sorry if I just kind of 'jumped' in there.


I was typing this up before I had to leave for work today, but long before Smash 4, before Melee came out, I was hoping deep down in my heart that Megaman X would be a playable character. I'd even thought up a full moveset for him at the time, and thought it over again this past week after having played P:M for a while now. I just thought I'd throw out what I'd thought of (though, with Megaman being a playable character in Smash 4, it makes this less satisfying somehow).

The idea with X is that he'd be a character similar to Marth, who had to utilize certain spacing to be at his most effective, and have the versatility of Mario in his attacks in that he could have multiple trajectories on a couple of them, allowing for different mixups in his game. At the same time, he wouldn't be very fast, but not very slow, either, somewhere just below Mario in terms of running speed, but slightly larger than the majority of the 'human' cast members.

Take all of this with a grain of salt, as I'm a fairly amateur smasher. I don't know too much about anything, to be honest, but thought this would be a good enough suggestion to spitball around. Hopefully somebody who's good enough here takes a shine to it.

Movement

With X, I always imagined he'd have a running speed somewhere close to Wario's. Not incredibly fast, but not incredibly slow, either. X had a sort of slower run in his series, anyway, so I don't see how that'd detract from his character. As for his weight, I felt matching it close to Link's and Snake's would be a nice fit for him, with roughly the same falling speed. Height-wise, he'd probably be as tall as Ike, but it's likely that he'd be kind of bulkier, like Ganondorf. I imagine that his traction would be on par with Cap. Falcon's.

X would be able to wall jump, of course, and could possibly have his neat little slide from his series. I'm not sure how that would hurt his character at all.

Combat

Normals (ground)

Jab: A solid one-two punch that ended with with a 'shoryuken'-esque uppercut, but without the huge jump height or anything crazy like that. The trajectory on the last hit of the jab could probably be very slightly upwards and away from X in the direction he's facing. I always imagined that the first hit would do 4%, the second would do 3%, and the last would do 3% as well. The speed of the punches would be similar to the speed of Ike's jab.

F-Tilt: A quick thrust forward with both arms, pushing the opponent back. Damage-wise, would be around 5%. The speed would be comparable to Ganondor's F-Tilt; just a sweet little 'pop'.

U-Tilt: X would do a handstand and thrust his legs upward, lifting the opponent. Would do around 6% damage. I always loved to imagine that there'd be a small sweetspot on the bottoms of his boots (where the little 'boosters' are) that would do about 8-9% damage, and have higher knockback. The trajectory, sweetspotted or not, would be straight up. Speed would be comparable to ROB's U-Tilt, but slower.

D-Tilt: X does a quick sweeping kick with one leg, with two possible trajectories.

a) If hit at the tip of his leg (calf to foot), the opponent would be sent straight up. 8% damage.
b) If hit with the upper part of his leg (thigh to knee), the opponent would be knocked back and away from X. 6% damage.

Smashes

F-Smash: X quickly trusts a leg out in front of him while firing the booster on his boot, sending the opponent straight back on a horizontal trajectory. There would be a hitbox for his foot, and for the most of the rest of his leg (about to his thigh). The upper hitbox (about to his ankle) wouldn't send the opponent back too far, and would do about 9% damage. The tipped attack with his small thruster would send the opponent back farther, and do about 11-12%.

U-Smash: An actual 'shoryuken'-esque uppercut, complete with a really short hop into the air. The attack would sort of 'catch' the opponent while lifting them, doling out three hits total, with the final hit being the strongest. Trajectory-wise would be up and away from X in the direction he was facing when he performed the attack. Damages for the hits would probably be (uncharged) 3-5-6 to total out at 14%.

D-Smash: A slower version of his D-Tilt, which hits both front and back of X, with two trajectories for each side (which are the same).

a) if hit at the tip (calf to boot), the opponent would be sent upwards and away, with about 10% damage.
b) if hit from his thigh to knee-ish area, the opponent would be 'swept' inward towards X, at about the same amount of damage).

Aerials

N-Air: X Does a quick somersault, sending the opponent up and away in the direction X was facing. About 6% damage, with higher knockback at the start of the attack.

U-Air: X's helmet flashes, and he does a quick headbutt, sort of like how he uses the head upgrade in X1 to bust through blocks. If the opponent is slightly behind X's head when he does this, they'll be sent upwards and backwards, where if they're hit where his face is, they'll be sent forwards and down at an angle. I don't hear of or see too many U-Airs that perform a function to send somebody down, so I figured it would be a sort of unique thing for X to have. Damage-wise, would probably be about 6% for the behind hit, and 7% for the forward hit.

F-Air: X would do a sort of 'drill' kick with a short duration, working similarly to Mario's D-Air in 'holding' an opponent in place. Its knockback wouldn't be too noticeable since you're caught in the attack for the duration, but I figured it would sort of 'drag' you towards X. There would be four or five weak, rapid hits, each dealing about 1-2% damage. It would be an option versus shields, was my reasoning for this at first.

B-Air: A backflip, in which X brings his leg down on an opponent from above, sending them downwards at an angle. If the very tip of his foot connects, the opponent is sent straight down. The attack would do around 6% damage.

D-Air: X does a sort of 'punt', like he was trying to kick a ball off of the ground. The 'swing' of his leg would send the opponent forward and slightly upward if not tipped with his boot, and would send more upward if tipped. The attack would do about 7%.

Specials

Uniquely, something I wanted with X, was for the ability for him to apply charges to some of his specials, as he can in the X series. I don't know what everybody's take on this would be, as it feels like it would simply give him too many options from attacks, but I'll just post the uncharged and charged versions. Most of X's specials would have a little bit of endlag after them, where his neutral wouldn't.

Neutral: X fires his X-Buster (kind of a given, really), which would fly at a slightly slower speed than Falco's lasers, but would have a lower 'cooldown' between shots. Like in the X series, his buster wouldn't cause opponents to be stunned, which would (I hope) balance out the speed and range at which he can fire them. Uncharged blasts would do about 2% damage. X would be able to move around freely while firing his Buster, and could of course charge it. The kicker though, is that being hit while he's charging will knock him out of the charge, and require him to start again (assuming he gets hit by a move that makes him flinch). Being able to move around while charging also means that he cannot perform a dodge roll out of it like Samus, DK, Sheik, and other characters can take advantage of during their chargeable neutral specials.

A charged blast from his neutral special would fly slightly faster, be slightly larger than the lemons from the normal shots, and apply flinching as well. The attack wouldn't really have knockback when charged, but would simply have high hitstun. A full charge could be attained in about 2-3 seconds (I feel like that's a long time in Smash Bros, anyway).

Forward:

X uses his trademark dashing ability to quickly close distance on an opponent. The dashing distance wouldn't be too long, but he'd be able to jump out of it to allow for some longer jumps and aerial approaches from a distance. In the air, X could use this to approach the stage and aid in recovery, as he would not fall during the first one used in the air. After the first, X will still get the horizontal distance in the air, but will fall like normal.

Up:

X's Storm Tornado ability, obtained from Storm Eagle (I understand that, in the actual X game, the attack is horizontal, but, hey, it's all I could think of for recovery). X would barrel through the air, 'carrying' those he connected the attack with along with him. Though the attack lacks horizontal reach, it would be a very 'tall' attack that covered him from above, and could prove to be a strong finishing attack. X would not fly to the top of the tornado, which itself would be about two-and-a-half times his height. When charged, the attack would launch horizontally in the direction X was facing (like it normally does uncharged in his series), acting as an attack that could carry opponents off the side of the screen. A full charge would take about three seconds to ready, and could be interrupted like his neutral charge.

Down:

This is a weird one, so bear with me here. X remains in place to build up a charge, needing about six seconds total time to do so. The charge can be interrupted with a roll like Sheik, DK, Samus, etc, but is lost if hit while charging. When fully-charged, X temporarily gains his Body armor piece, and greatly increases his knockback resistance for about seven seconds, or sixty damage is accumulated; whichever comes first. It's a defensive tool that allows him to take greater risks in his offensive game, and could potentially be very rewarding if the time is taken for a charge to be completed. I'm hoping that this one won't be too powerful, what with an opponent respawning on the stage with an X just waiting there and charging, ready to tank out an attack again. I really had nothing else to think of for his Down special, but that struck me as something unique.

Again, sorry if this isn't too polished or anything like that. I'm by no stretch of the imagination a high-skill player, but I'd had this idea bouncing around in my head for years and years now, and felt it appropriate to throw it into the board for some healthy discussion.

 

[RPGsFTW]

Dude, Fortress, no worries. I ended my Waluigi talk, or tried to, much earlier today. And I think Mega Man X is awesome. Definitely my favorite version of Mega Man, though the Battle Network Series is my favorite Mega Man series, haha.

And it's all good, Hero.

I can totally imagine Toad fighting using all of his power ups from the New Super Mario (U) series as well as Super Mario Bros 2. I actually hate-love Toad. But imagining him fighting with skills such as his Up-B being the squirrel suit and having turnip throws would be really cool, I think.

 

[Fortress]

Dude, Fortress, no worries. I ended my Waluigi talk, or tried to, much earlier today. And I think Mega Man X is awesome. Definitely my favorite version of Mega Man, though the Battle Network Series is my favorite Mega Man series, haha.

And it's all good, Hero.

I can totally imagine Toad fighting using all of his power ups from the New Super Mario (U) series as well as Super Mario Bros 2. I actually hate-love Toad. But imagining him fighting with skills such as his Up-B being the squirrel suit and having turnip throws would be really cool, I think.

Battle Network 3 or bust, man. It was the absolute peak of the series.

 

[HyperrCrow]

I'm glad this thread took a more positive turn. I'm enjoying reading all of these suggestions now that you guys are backing it up with a lot of information and being more supportive/respectful of each other. Keep on discussin' while I keep on lurkin'.

 

[Protom]

I cruelly like the idea of X being there, though would thing adding in Zero would take it to the next level.
They could give him the z buster, his blade, his weapons from the mm zero series (boomerang cutter, spear, etc). Also, he resembles protoman more.

 

[ChronoBound]

I would like to point out a few things I noticed regarding Project M,
One of the main three model collaborators, Starwaffle was working on a model of Andy a few months back and never actually released it/finished. While it's probably a coincidence, I bet we could totally see Andy get in based on this. Star Waffle also made a Sukapon model awhile back so theres that too.
.

That is interesting.

However, I doubt it means anything for a possible Advance Wars character considering that as you said, he has worked on many different characters in the past.

Maybe in the future I will post a condensed version of my Advance Wars piece.

 

[Anti Guy]

The X talk is nice, but... it's 100% impossible. They're not gonna add any 3rd party characters, and especially ones that didn't appear in Brawl.

 

[ChronoBound]

The X talk is nice, but... it's 100% impossible. They're not gonna add any 3rd party characters, and especially ones that didn't appear in Brawl.

I think a second Sonic character has decent chances for one of the spots even though its polarizing. I think Knuckles and Tails are the only ones with shots though, considering that Shadow draws ire both outside and inside the Sonic fanbase.

Other than that I agree. Its pretty much a second Sonic character that is the exception to that though.

 

[Anti Guy]

I think a second Sonic character has decent chances for one of the spots even though its polarizing. I think Knuckles and Tails are the only ones with shots though, considering that Shadow draws ire both outside and inside the Sonic fanbase.

Other than that I agree. Its pretty much a second Sonic character that is the exception to that though.

Yeah, I was too lazy to say that, but Sonic and MGS are the only "viable" 3rd party candidates.

 

[Mithost]

Related:

 

[ChronoBound]

Oh look the Too Bigot is back.

The funny thing about these guys is that they have debunked endlessly yet they still feel the need to troll Ridley fans.

 

[cmart]

On a side note, since people were arguing about Waluigi... If you guys haven't played this game, go play it. It's probably the best Mario fan game I've played yet. If Waluigi were to somehow make it in (and again, I think the only way that's possible is by using what MarioKing64DS has already put tons of effort in), it'd be pretty neat if one of his moves was based on his psychic power from that game as a tribute from one fan project to another.

Wether or not we do Waluigi or any other character with dedicated PSAs there, we would not be using the work of others AT ALL. Hopefully our Mewtwo should illustrate that (100% in house model/animation/psa, despite the many other attempts out there). So really, what PSAs, models, or whatever that are already on brawlvault should not factor into anyone's speculations.

 

[Anti Guy]

Wether or not we do Waluigi or any other character with dedicated PSAs there, we would not be using the work of others AT ALL. Hopefully our Mewtwo should illustrate that (100% in house model/animation/psa, despite the many other attempts out there). So really, what PSAs, models, or whatever that are already on brawlvault should not factor into anyone's speculations.

That's actually really good to know, thanks!

 

[ChronoBound]

That's actually really good to know, thanks!

I would still like to know:
1. Have any slots been decided yet?
2. Will there be a deadline date for deciding slots?

 

[CardiganBoy]

I made a moveset for Dark Samus back in 2011 so i maybe post it, but a little later, cause im lazy.

 

[Fortress]

I always liked to imagine that Dark Samus would float ever so slightly off of the ground just for aesthetic effect.

 

[Mithost]

Oh look the Too Bigot is back.

The funny thing about these guys is that they have debunked endlessly yet they still feel the need to troll Ridley fans.

I just saw the image and decided to share. I personally don't think the mindset you guys have about these things ("Well ____ is probably going to get in", or "Well before they add X, they have to add Y because _________") is healthy. I really like the idea of you guys doing this for Smash 4 because Sakurai isn't bound by a grand total of 5 more character slots and brawl's limitations when it comes to development tools. On top of this, chances are that there will be at least a couple character slots left when 3.0 comes out, so you can make your own dream roster if you really wanted it. The modding community for brand new characters will probably explode once they wrap their heads around the PMBR's creation. I would be surprised if they didn't add Goku to Brawl Minus.

The expectations from you guys just seem so high when, at least for Project M, things seem a bit conservative. Everyone would like to see their dream roster in smash, but it should be known that this game has already been made, and it sure as hell doesn't look professional.

Every character they add to the roster from now on is a stunt. It expands the boundaries and opens the flood gates. They can add "X", but Group 1 would complain about the lackluster and/or ridiculous addition, Group 2 would complain that he/she is a clone of "Y", and the lovely group of people sitting on this thread would be complaining that it wasn't "Z". When you put 700+ hours into designing, rigging, modeling, balancing, and then finally releasing a character for a game, you want to make sure that as many people as physically possible are happy with which character that is.

Let's add Dixie Kong. Suddenly everybody is freaking out that Earthbound should have had another character, that Funky Kong was the better choice, and how she is just a clone of Diddy. No amount of variation in her design can change this. Black Shadow? Clone of Ganondorf. Samurai Goroh should have been chosen as a F-Zero. Issac from Golden Sun? What about Lloyd from Tales of Symphonia, seeing that the PMBR are putting JRPG protagonists into this game now? Paper Mario? Waluigi? Why not Birdo too? Daisy could probably pull off a new moveset too!

I'm 100% expecting "well not everyone can be pleased", which is mostly true. To that, I would like to direct your attention to Mewtwo. Please find a person who is 100% against the addition of Mewtwo to the roster. I'll wait.

 

[shinhed-echi]

Heh, I understand all that. Which is why I look forward to Project M as a "one thing at the time" deal.
It already knocked the ball out of the park for me with Roy and Mewtwo. Next I'm cautiously looking forward to see if Pichu makes it to the roster. Then I'll feel the Melee cast is truly complete.

Then, I MIGHT be looking forward to a newcomer. Or more along the lines of wishful thinking. If that's the case then I wouldn't know who to look forward to because at that point, anyone is a welcome extra.
Not going to get ahead of myself and wonder if the characters have already been decided, and whatnot.
If at least ONE is in the works, my hype machine is already running.
At this point I just want to see all the Brawl veterans + Melee veteran left. XD

 

[CardiganBoy]

I always liked to imagine that Dark Samus would float ever so slightly off of the ground just for aesthetic effect.

Of course in my moveset Dark Samus float, just like in Prime 2/3

 

[GHNeko]

I'm 100% expecting "well not everyone can be pleased", which is mostly true. To that, I would like to direct your attention to Mewtwo. Please find a person who is 100% against the addition of Mewtwo to the roster. I'll wait.

browse youtube comments lol

 

[Mithost]

browse youtube comments lol

Haven't found anything yet. Just the normal Brawl vs. Melee debate and youtube scum. Found a comment from you though.

 

[| Kailex |]

@cmart so that means you wont use the assist trophy model for waluigi? That is if youre going to put him in

 

[lag comp]

I don't really look forward any more characters other than Mewtwo and Roy but I really wouldn't mind Dark Samus (only if she/it get Samus screw attack from smash 64, I've always loved that move and hate what they did with it in Melee and Brawl)

 

[QQQQQQQ7777777]

hey i'm new to here and know about history of smash bros. and stuff btw if anybody (icluding you Hero_42) wan't to play project m online just email me your friend code and i'll send you mines back email is ultimateronsu17@gmail.com thanks ^_^

Go to the IRL chat to have online matches, asking here won`t get you anywhere.

 

[QQQQQQQ7777777]

To that, I would like to direct your attention to Mewtwo. Please find a person who is 100% against the addition of Mewtwo to the roster. I'll wait.

I HATE MEWTWO, HE`S SUXZ ZO MUCH! HE SHOULD HAVE BEEN REPLACED WITH COD PLAYER #9,827! BECAUSE A GAME ISN`T GOOD UNLESS IT HAS COD IN IT! POKEMON IS A RIPOFF OF COD! WANT TO KNOW WHY? BECAUSE IN POKEMON YOU HAVE TALL GRASS AND IN COD YOU HAVE TALL GRASS! SO THAT MEANS THAT POKEMON IS A RIPOFF OF COD! THE ONLY THING THATS NOT A RIPOFF OF COD IS CLASSIC SONIC! BECAUSE ALL YOU MODERN MORANZ NEED TO LEARN THAT SONIC WAS ONLY GOOD IN SONIC 1 AND EVERY GAME AFTER THAT SUXZ! I AM THE EMBODIMENT OF SWAG AND I THINK DAT MEWTWO HAZ NO SWAG AND THEREFORE SHOULD BE KILLED! DA ONLY GOOD CONSOLE IS TEH XBOX ONE, BECAUSE IT WAS MADE BY MICROSOFT AND SONY IS DUMB JUST LIKE NINTENDO!

 

[Mithost]

@cmart so that means you wont use the assist trophy model for waluigi? That is if youre going to put him in

They said that they won't be using any pre-made models if they decide to make a character. Everything will be made from scratch.

 

[Chzrm3]

I'm 100% expecting "well not everyone can be pleased", which is mostly true. To that, I would like to direct your attention to Mewtwo. Please find a person who is 100% against the addition of Mewtwo to the roster. I'll wait.

Hahaha, that Ridley picture is great.

And yeah, I totally agree with what you're saying.

 

[Solbliminal]

I think a second Sonic character has decent chances for one of the spots even though its polarizing. I think Knuckles and Tails are the only ones with shots though, considering that Shadow draws ire both outside and inside the Sonic fanbase.

Other than that I agree. Its pretty much a second Sonic character that is the exception to that though.

No matter how much controversy Shadow has wrought, he is still a popular character. That is a given fact since he was introduced to the B.Vault. I've yet to see Shadow's mod leave popular downloads for any longer a day or two. Not even Knuckles and Tails mods keep top downloads for as long, nor do they have enough dedication from the community to make practical mods for those two. The tools are there, people have tried, but there just isn't as much support for Knuckles and Tails than Shadow. You can argue the fact Knuckles and Tails needs special treatment since they couldn't be made in mods of young, or that Shadow is the closest thing to Sonic in terms of framework and moves, but even after being granted access to all the tools needed to be able to make a quality mod, they just don't have nearly as much support as you would think.

That being said, it is a number from the community. Rather the mod is dated or not it still retains its position despite the claims that he is an unworthy character. That is also an accomplishment not even rivaled by other popular mods to this date. It doesn't matter who all argues against it because numbers are proof. Work your way over to the vault and you will see Shadow holds 2 spots on "Top Downloads" with #1 being Shadow Final Version at 51889 downloads (and counting) and #6 being True Shadow the Hedgehog at 16774 downloads (and counting). And though very dated, Sega had a popularity poll about 6 or so years back in which Shadow topped the charts over Tail, but not before Sonic himself. It is still physical proof which is more than making claims that everyone hates him. Maybe everyone you talk to, but most certainly not everyone I have or many others.

Lastly, I can see you care greatly about what seems like the most popular set of choices in the forums. I completely agree with nearly everything you have posted in regards to character choices, but I can tell you have an extreme bias against Shadow (and for that matter any Sonic character beyond Knuckles and Tails). Proof is in how you back your argument against him without solid proof or numbers. Yes a few people in this forum are going to agree with you. In fact I may be overrun in this particular thread. But at least I can provide some form of evidence to back up what I say. Oh and one last thing. The 3rd party character argument is only going to take you as far as characters that exist outside of brawl. Simon Belmont, Geno, and Bomberman are good examples of characters not to suggest. Characters like Shadow and Gray Fox (or other characters that appear from these franchises in game), are to my knowledge acceptable until an official has told me otherwise. Chances are, even if Shadow were picked against the rules, assuming he is, Sonic Team has let mods fly with no course of action against them. Sonic Generations is a good example. That will be my support following this character.

To anyone else who cares, I'll be posting my presentation for Shadow sometime soon. I would like to not have to type out my entire presentation with my cellphone like I did with this message. Enjoy~