Clone Engine Misc. Discussion Thread

[trojanpooh]

He's a clone of Lucario, *******. He's not a clone of Ganondorf. Omfg, why are you arguing technical stuff that you don't know anything about?

/done

#learn reading comprehension

I'm going to try this one more time. The idea behind "changing Ganondorf" is as follows:
1) Put a new model over the current Ganondorf to make him resemble an F-Zero character
2) Clone a character (who has projectiles) and design a new Ganondorf.
3) You now have old Ganondorf's moveset on a "new" character and a unique Ganondorf.

It's really not that complicated. Try to actually understand what you're talking about next time you talk down on people, m'kay?

 

[Mithost]

Can we lock this and make a P:M Character speculation thread

or edit the title of this thread because that is all that is ****ing happening here

 

[shinhed-echi]

I honestly find Black Shadow kind of a boring character. But hey, whatever rows everyone's boats. If Goroh would take over Ganondorf's moveset, he'd already have a taunt involving a sword. XD

But I guess it's just easier to skin up Black Shadow over Ganondorf due to all the black magic punching/kicking. (Then again, Ganon's got several electric attacks like Jab, and Up+B)

 

[#HBC | Joker]

I'm going to try this one more time. The idea behind "changing Ganondorf" is as follows:
1) Put a new model over the current Ganondorf to make him resemble an F-Zero character
2) Clone a character (who has projectiles) and design a new Ganondorf.
3) You now have old Ganondorf's moveset on a "new" character and a unique Ganondorf.

It's really not that complicated. Try to actually understand what you're talking about next time you talk down on people, m'kay?

And that doesn't qualify as "changing ganondorf, as a character" how?

I know exactly what I'm talking about, don't patronize me. That's changing Ganondorf's ****ing moveset, and it's not something they're gonna do, or they'd have done it already.

 

[Skieth]

And that doesn't qualify as "changing ganondorf, as a character" how?

I know exactly what I'm talking about, don't patronize me. That's changing Ganondorf's ****ing moveset, and it's not something they're gonna do, or they'd have done it already.

Yeah, I really doubt the pmbr is going to re-skin over a character in this fashion. However, many of us have been waiting for a "real" Ganondorf moveset for over a decade now. That swap summarized by Trojanpooh needs to be done by the community once there is a public version of the clone engine.

 

[trojanpooh]

And that doesn't qualify as "changing ganondorf, as a character" how?

I know exactly what I'm talking about, don't patronize me. That's changing Ganondorf's ****ing moveset, and it's not something they're gonna do, or they'd have done it already.

none of that is possible as you describe it. Not one bit of it. He's talking about giving the character magical projectiles, something that ganondorf doesn't have in smash. You can't add those, you have to clone a character that already has a projectile. Try again, smartass. That's NOT what he's talking about. At all. He's talking about changing Ganondorf's moveset.

Changing your argument midway isn't exactly the best tactic when the people you're arguing with can just go back and refer to your previous statements. There's a huge difference between "The PMBR won't do it" and "The PMBR can't do it".

 

[Skieth]

Changing your argument midway isn't exactly the best tactic when the people you're arguing with can just go back and refer to your previous statements. There's a huge difference between "The PMBR won't do it" and "The PMBR can't do it".

(moveset) -> (model)

(Ganondorfs existing moveset) -> (Custom model of Black shadow, of which there are many available on kc-mm)

(Custom moveset based on one of the ~40 existnig characters) -> (Ganondorfs existing model)

The base moveset used to make the fancy new ganondorf moveset needs to have any of the bells and whistles you want ganondorf to have. Ganondorfs existing moveset will remain unchanged.

I think the exchange described above is pretty clear to everyone and this pissing contest needs to stop.

 

[ChronoBound]

I think for Ridley, Dixie Kong, and Black Shadow/de-cloned Ganondorf, I would like for the Project M team to hold off on making roster decisions until we see what happens with Smash 4 in regards to those characters.

Project M is basically a mod to make what Brawl should have been (being as deep as Melee, but far more balanced, having Mewtwo and Roy, etc.) The five slots should go to characters that SHOULD be in Smash Bros. but for whatever Sakurai's whims were for Smash 4, were passed on.

Isaac is a good candidate to choose for this reason.

With Ridley, Sakurai could end up de-confirming him at any point. He has thrown the Smash Bros. fanbase into a tizzy ever since the first Pyrosphere update, where Sakurai made a cryptic comment that an enemy from Samus's past could appear at any moment (the area of the Pyrosphere where you fight in in Smash 4 is where you fought Ridley in Other M). Sakurai has since been either teasing or trolling (its hard to tell with Sakurai) with the Pyrosphere since then, even dedicating an entire update with a picture of simply a very large hole on the Pyrosphere where Ridley theoretically could fly in through.

With Dixie Kong and de-cloned Ganondorf, it may end up that we don't know until the game's release as to whether those two characters will be in. Sakurai has already overhauled characters like Bowser and Pit in Smash 4, so its not unlikely that he would overhaul Ganondorf, the one character for whom there has been the largest clamor to be changed up.

Basically, what I am saying is, that it would be for the best if the Project M team did not immediately decide all the slots. Sure they probably want to finish the entire project a few months after Smash 4's release (which is likely going to be Q4 2014), however, this is an incredibly rare opportunity to finally to see the long dashed dreams of the Smash Bros. fanbase finally realized if Sakurai again does not follow through on them with Smash 4 (notably Ridley and a decloned Ganondorf).

 

[GHNeko]

But putting over a thousand hours into new characters before finishing the original roster?

We've been working on these unreleased characters for years alongside the restored roster lol and have been for longer than clones.

Oh god, this thread is basically the SSB4 character speculation thread.

ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ​

 

[ChronoBound]

We've been working on these unreleased characters for years alongside the restored roster lol. Clones are a drop in the hat compared to the rest.

So wait you have been working on the remaining five newcomers for years already? So the characters have already been decided?

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Changing your argument midway isn't exactly the best tactic when the people you're arguing with can just go back and refer to your previous statements. There's a huge difference between "The PMBR won't do it" and "The PMBR can't do it".

He was saying that they'd clone Ganondorf in order to make black shadow, and change the original ganon. That, as he described it, can't work. I didn't change my argument at all, I just know how to read.

 

[GHNeko]

So wait you have been working on the remaining five newcomers for years already? So the characters have already been decided?

What?

No.

Characters like Samus and Yoshi have had work done on them forever now. We're constantly working on them trying to get them to work.

There are no plans for characters outside of Roy and Mewtwo so far lmao.

 

[ChronoBound]

What?

No.

Characters like Samus and Yoshi have had work done on them forever now. We're constantly working on them trying to get them to work.

Really looking forward to Samus. She has been my main in every Smash Bros. game so far.

 

[GHNeko]

She's in good hands.

ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ

ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ⌐■-■

ヽ༼■ل͜■ ༽ﾉ

 

[ChronoBound]

I am really curious how many of the newcomer slots have already been decided. I would think at least two of them have been if I had to guess. I think though at least one of them is still undecided.

Its at least good they are letting the fans have some input into what might happen, though they may also simply be letting us talk to get an idea for how the fan reaction might be to possible characters that they have planned or are thinking about.

 

[Xenozoa425]

They might use the 5 remaining slots. They might not. Either way, be happy.

 

[ChronoBound]

They might use the 5 remaining slots. They might not. Either way, be happy.

Yes, I am grateful just that they brought back Mewtwo and Roy. They turned out better than I would have imagined.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

I am really curious how many of the newcomer slots have already been decided. I would think at least two of them have been if I had to guess. I think though at least one of them is still undecided.

Their names are Roy and Mewtwo. As far as others... GHNeko literally just told you there's no plans for others. While that's technically subject to change... well, let's just say that the SSB4 speculation threads already existed, and yet they still have no plans for additional characters.

Its at least good they are letting the fans have some input into what might happen, though they may also simply be letting us talk to get an idea for how the fan reaction might be to possible characters that they have planned or are thinking about.

You know they didn't make this thread, right? They're not looking for input, they just left this thread open, because they don't want to have to lock the 50,000 threads that people would keep making.

 

[ChronoBound]

No need to snap at me.

 

[CardiganBoy]

im open to changes like giving Ganons moves to Black Shadow.
Well, while playing OoT 3D i came up with a few ideas for Young Link, like getting rid of his Bow and giving him his Slingshot, and Deku Nuts with stunning efects instead of Bombs, maybe the REAL Dins Fire for Final Smash, even though i think final smashes are the last thing to think of.

 

[210stuna]

Ridley is just too big for smash. Downscaling him isn't an option here. Even if we brought him down to bowser's size, it would look awful.
Lyn is a cool idea, but "Too many sword characters" is a very possible thing with Roy in here. Hopefully the alt. costume feature will support modding so we can add her over Marth.
I don't see the appeal of Dixie Kong. I feel as if she would be a clone of Diddy Kong in the same way Dr.Mario was a clone of mario.
Samurai Goroh... more F-Zero would be nice, but I feel like "Too many sword characters" kicks in.

Too many Mario characters.

Oh.

 

[Orngeblu]

I'm really curious what newcomers they will add in the future.

Also, if I read correctly, they can't add as many characters as they want not just because of legal restrictions, but because they only ave a certain amount of slots they can use? Is this correct?

 

[ChronoBound]

I'm really curious what newcomers they will add in the future.

Also, if I read correctly, they can't add as many characters as they want not just because of legal restrictions, but because they only ave a certain amount of slots they can use? Is this correct?

They can only add a maximum of five newcomers due to limits to the of the Clone Engine.

As to "restriction". The only restrictions I know of are:
1. Can't backport newcomers confirmed for Smash 4.
2. Can't add in characters that made absolutely no appearance in Brawl.

 

[PseudoTypical]

There are no plans for characters outside of Roy and Mewtwo so far lmao.

In a weird sort of way, I'm sort of happy about this. It's not that I don't want more characters, but I'd rather have you guys take your time and see what your best options are, both for technical possibilities and user feedback (by looking at places like this, for instance). I also imagine the higher-ups are waiting to see how SSB4 plays its cards since they're trying to be legally sensitive, if someone is considering characters at all at the moment.

Also, if I read correctly, they can't add as many characters as they want not just because of legal restrictions, but because they only ave a certain amount of slots they can use? Is this correct?

Yes, both. There are 7 extra slots for clone characters, two of which are now filled with Roy and Mewtwo. They're trying to only include content already licensed within the game to avoid legal trouble with Nintendo, but that includes anything that appears in stages, trophies, stickers, assist trophies, and the like, so it's not so bad. They also don't want to appear as competition to SSB4 sales, so they won't intentionally include anything that appears there, although this part is confusing since we don't know the full roster yet. They could bring back Mewtwo for all we know, even though the PMBR announced him first...

 

[AnOkayDM]

Yes, both. There are 7 extra slots for clone characters, two of which are now filled with Roy and Mewtwo. They're trying to only include content already licensed within the game to avoid legal trouble with Nintendo, but that includes anything that appears in stages, trophies, stickers, assist trophies, and the like, so it's not so bad. They also don't want to appear as competition to SSB4 sales, so they won't intentionally include anything that appears there, although this part is confusing since we don't know the full roster yet. They could bring back Mewtwo for all we know, even though the PMBR announced him first...

Mewtwo should be fair game though, as they're bringing back a Melee character that was cut, not intentionally adding a Smash 4 character. Besides, he was supposed to be in the game in the first place.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

What?

No.

Characters like Samus and Yoshi have had work done on them forever now. We're constantly working on them trying to get them to work.

There are no plans for characters outside of Roy and Mewtwo so far lmao.

Sweet to hear that- like I said before, P:M might bask already in being pretty amazing mod without extra characters already planned ahead all along. This might also give some cooldown to think about if to truly use the Clone Engine past the Melee Vet Duo.(plus the SSB4-thing)

 

[PseudoTypical]

Mewtwo should be fair game though, as they're bringing back a Melee character that was cut, not intentionally adding a Smash 4 character. Besides, he was supposed to be in the game in the first place.

That's true. I think we all understand that the PMBR's intentions are pure and Mewtwo has plenty of justification, but we can't be sure that Nintendo will care, since the content will still be similar. That's what I meant.

I have to wonder how clone engine characters will progress from here on out, assuming they will. A lot of the characters they'd likely consider adding will overlap with potential SSB4 characters, and because of DLC possibilities, we might not know the full roster for a really long time. Mewtwo is the only free ride as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Anti Guy]

I don't see why they can't polish up what they have now and work out the rest of the remaining characters... and then if they're still up to it, add on extra characters for the clone slots further down the line in increments, in DLC fashion. This might happen even deeper into SSB4's release, but aside from people who already don't have a Wii U, the new additions can give those people playing Wii U/3DS incentive to come back

 

[AnOkayDM]

That's true. I think we all understand that the PMBR's intentions are pure and Mewtwo has plenty of justification, but we can't be sure that Nintendo will care, since the content will still be similar. That's what I meant.

I have to wonder how clone engine characters will progress from here on out, assuming they will. A lot of the characters they'd likely consider adding will overlap with potential SSB4 characters, and because of DLC possibilities, we might not know the full roster for a really long time. Mewtwo is the only free ride as far as I'm concerned.

I think until Smash 4 is released or characters are deconfirmed, work should not begin on characters who actually have a chance in Smash 4. This includes our most wanted Clone Engine characters, sadly, as well as some of the characters we consider the PMBR likely to work on.

 

[PseudoTypical]

I think until Smash 4 is released or characters are deconfirmed, work should not begin on characters who actually have a chance in Smash 4. This includes our most wanted Clone Engine characters, sadly, as well as some of the characters we consider the PMBR likely to work on.

It may well be over a year until work can start, then. I hope they at least consider characters that aren't likely to be in SSB4, like additional Sonic characters or something.

 

[GuruKid]

Well logic was thrown out the window when you refused to do anything other than "no it isn't". Welcome to smashboards I guess.

I wish we had a character speculation thread so we could actually talk about the clone engine and it's inner workings here. I want to know how much will be available to player modification, and how replacing the new character's textures works.

The engine supplies each clone character with its own folder and character files just like with the original characters. With Mewtwo for instance there is a "mewtwo" folder inside the "fighter" folder containing files such as "fitmewtwo.pac" that you could freely edit with PSA/Hex and "fitmewtwo00.pac/pcs" that you can edit via Brawlbox the exact same method as when handling a regular character.

 

[GHNeko]

Edit: ignore this post.
Sent from my SGH-T699 using Tapatalk 2

 

[shinhed-echi]

Well so far, this mod is looking freaking awesome.
I was hoping for the complete Brawl roster and having them all "Meleefied", but I would have never expected it to go BEYOND and bring back fan favorites like Roy and Mewtwo.

I cannot express enough how hyped I am, as I look forward to Winter 2013 to get my hands on the new build which, if I'm not mistaken, should include Roy (and hopefully Mewtwo?) so I can play it with my friends.

So, Brawl roster + Roy + Mewtwo = PERFECT.
Now, I do think that while the roster could not feel any more complete, if it isn't too complicated, it would be just awesome to bring old Pichu back. Just because that would seal the deal as far as dropped characters go.
And also, because after Roy, Mewtwo, and Pichu, who are only being updated to P:M, any other character that could potentially be added, COULD be in the works for SSB4.
Which is why I consider it ideal that if any character should be worked on next, it'd have to be Pichu.

(Not saying PMBR SHOULD, but just imagine if they go through the trouble of making a completely NEW character, then suddenly that character becomes playable in SSB4... if they're following the policy of not back-porting, then they can't use this character... Wasted effort. Pichu is safe from this policy.)

IMO, they should work on Pichu, and take a break from characters until they know the full roster of SSB4. (Or they could work on a character's moveset that could be easily ported to another one, I guess).

And once again, thanks for making the best SSB game ever.
You guys could've or could stop at anytime, but you keep pumping out great surprises. To be honest, this project has me a bit more hyped than SSB4.


P.S.
May I ask, and I don't want to sound too pushy or anything, what is giving you guys so much trouble with Samus? Just curious, I can wait for as long as it takes. It's just that I thought she was one of the more balanced Melee characters of them all.. so "porting" her would've been a piece of cake. XD
Just asking.

 

[PseudoTypical]

Yeah, 3.0, which is the next release, will be out this winter and will have Roy and Mewtwo. We don't know if the entire Brawl cast will be done by then, but a bunch of guys from the PMBR (P:M back room) have said that they're trying to make it happen.

I know people really like Pichu, and that he's a joke character, and he's from Melee, but I don't think he's the best thing for P:M. He's either going to suck on purpose, or he'll be given a balanced moveset. If the latter were to happen, the most appropriate fighting style I can think of would be the "glass cannon", but I don't think that does the canon any justice either. He's supposed to be bad, even if some people can make him win. TL;DR: Pichu is against the goals of the PMBR.

I do think that they should wait until SSB4 is released to start work on characters that could possibly be in it, but at the same time, there are some viable choices that would never make it in.

As far as I understand, Samus had something that was very odd about her z-air. It affected the P:M engine somehow and screwed around with the physics dramatically when it was used. Hopefully they've found a workaround by now.

 

[Chzrm3]

So yeah, just wanted to get that out before I request an unpopular character for this totally rad clone engine thing: Toad.

I'm with you on that, I love Toad! Dixie and Toad are the two characters I'm rooting for the most in Smash 4, so if they don't make it into that, I'd love to see them appear here.

There's a bunch of interesting choices for cloning Toad, too. Naturally, you could use Mario, Luigi or Peach, but you can also do guys like Squirtle, Kirby and Lucas - the physics start to get wackier, but they might have things that work nicely with him.

I also like the idea of him using his mario kart in his aerials. Up-Air being Toad spinning around upside down on the kart, the way he does when he crashes in MK, would be pretty awesome. XD

Sadly, most people seem to not want Toad. But I'm with ya! : D

 

[red9rd]

Well so far, this mod is looking freaking awesome.
I was hoping for the complete Brawl roster and having them all "Meleefied", but I would have never expected it to go BEYOND and bring back fan favorites like Roy and Mewtwo.

I cannot express enough how hyped I am, as I look forward to Winter 2013 to get my hands on the new build which, if I'm not mistaken, should include Roy (and hopefully Mewtwo?) so I can play it with my friends.

So, Brawl roster + Roy + Mewtwo = PERFECT.
Now, I do think that while the roster could not feel any more complete, if it isn't too complicated, it would be just awesome to bring old Pichu back. Just because that would seal the deal as far as dropped characters go.
And also, because after Roy, Mewtwo, and Pichu, who are only being updated to P:M, any other character that could potentially be added, COULD be in the works for SSB4.
Which is why I consider it ideal that if any character should be worked on next, it'd have to be Pichu.

(Not saying PMBR SHOULD, but just imagine if they go through the trouble of making a completely NEW character, then suddenly that character becomes playable in SSB4... if they're following the policy of not back-porting, then they can't use this character... Wasted effort. Pichu is safe from this policy.)

IMO, they should work on Pichu, and take a break from characters until they know the full roster of SSB4. (Or they could work on a character's moveset that could be easily ported to another one, I guess).

And once again, thanks for making the best SSB game ever.
You guys could've or could stop at anytime, but you keep pumping out great surprises. To be honest, this project has me a bit more hyped than SSB4.


P.S.
May I ask, and I don't want to sound too pushy or anything, what is giving you guys so much trouble with Samus? Just curious, I can wait for as long as it takes. It's just that I thought she was one of the more balanced Melee characters of them all.. so "porting" her would've been a piece of cake. XD
Just asking.

You lost me at the last half of the pyramid, but with all the breakthroughs I wonder if they could do anything with the Alloys?

 

[Xebenkeck]

P.S.
May I ask, and I don't want to sound too pushy or anything, what is giving you guys so much trouble with Samus? Just curious, I can wait for as long as it takes. It's just that I thought she was one of the more balanced Melee characters of them all.. so "porting" her would've been a piece of cake. XD
Just asking.

Waaaaaaay back when they said one of the biggest problems with Samus is that she has a incredible small file size to work with. Meaning if you make too many changes to her, her file size exceeds that limit causing freezes. This was the answer the PMBR was giving a long time ago to this question.

Whether or not they overcame that problem I dont know, but I only imagine that issue got even more complicated when they introduced new mechanics like the Landing detection, grapple, frame delay, etc.

 

[Orngeblu]

How are you they going to get the announcer to say Mewtwo or Roy?

 

[PseudoTypical]

How are you they going to get the announcer to say Mewtwo or Roy?

I guess they made their own, because there were online streams showing off gameplay of Roy and Mewtwo, and the announcer calls were present.

 

[Chzrm3]

May I ask, and I don't want to sound too pushy or anything, what is giving you guys so much trouble with Samus? Just curious, I can wait for as long as it takes. It's just that I thought she was one of the more balanced Melee characters of them all.. so "porting" her would've been a piece of cake. XD
Just asking.

Haha, that picture is awesome.

As far as Samus, I remember them saying she had a few issues. One is that her Z-air writes to the same place in memory that they did all the Melee physics, which means it breaks the game when she uses that attack. Another is that she's actually got a lot less space allocated to her because of ZSS, so it makes it more difficult to modify her.

I could be totally wrong, these are just things I've heard mentioned on the forums. =)