Clone Engine Misc. Discussion Thread

[#HBC | Joker]

Oh god, this thread is basically the SSB4 character speculation thread.

 

[Sapphire Dragon]

Yoshi is probably the easier of them, but his egg throw trajectory and egg laying moves could cause issues. Samus can turn into ZSS so there's that. It could also be lazy coding on Nintendo's part that just happened to be in those characters which is making it a pain to alter/debug... as a programmer I can only imagine...

 

[AnOkayDM]

Oh god, this thread is basically the SSB4 character speculation thread.

...not...really?

We're talking about what characters we want them to add next in P:M. I fail to see how that relates to Smash 4 speculation.

Yoshi is probably the easier of them, but his egg throw trajectory and egg laying moves could cause issues. Samus can turn into ZSS so there's that. It could also be lazy coding on Nintendo's part that just happened to be in those characters which is making it a pain to alter/debug... as a programmer I can only imagine...

Well, Sheik and Zelda aren't buggy, so I dunno how big a deal the transformation is. Especially since it only happens through Final Smash...

 

[Sapphire Dragon]

Especially since it only happens through Final Smash...

That could be the problem right there.

But really, there's no way to know what the real problem is unless someone in the PMBR explains what the coding frustrations are.

 

[Solbliminal]

Only I seem to support:
-Paper Mario

I suggested him a couple pages back. I'm all for the idea.

 

[AnOkayDM]

That could be the problem right there.

But really, there's no way to know what the real problem is unless someone in the PMBR explains what the coding frustrations are.

Well, except it's not even the only way to do it, I just remembered. There's also the taunt method...eh, who knows. If there are things they can't work out, I'll forgive them for putting new characters first, but if the choice was to add new characters or fix existing ones, I'll be frustrated if they picked new ones before finishing up the roster.

 

[Solbliminal]

Would anyone be against Skull Kid or Kafei?

 

[SmashShadow]

That could be the problem right there.

But really, there's no way to know what the real problem is unless someone in the PMBR explains what the coding frustrations are.

I'm pretty sure that's not an issue as there's been hacks on brawl vault that cause Samus to not change into ZSS for awhile now. I remember on one of the streams they mentioned problems with her zair drastically effecting the physics of the entire game. That's a serious issue right there.

 

[HyperrCrow]

Well, except it's not even the only way to do it, I just remembered. There's also the taunt method...eh, who knows. If there are things they can't work out, I'll forgive them for putting new characters first, but if the choice was to add new characters or fix existing ones, I'll be frustrated if they picked new ones before finishing up the roster.

Why would you be frustrated with them? I understand that a lot of people want the vets/rest of the cast to be complete, but the PMBR have made a huge leap in Brawl modding with the Clone/Alt. Costume Engines. I don't think anyone would've thought it possible to reach this level ever and to commemorate for their achievements they decided to show us all what we've wanted for a long time and the fruits of their labor, Roy and Mewtwo. Personally I'm alright with whatever they do and how they go about it, I can only imagine that they're holding on to the other characters because it's much harder to work out the bugs for them as well as give them the right feel; and that once those characters are complete they'll be an even more amazing feat then the characters brought in by the clone engine.

 

[AnOkayDM]

Would anyone be against Skull Kid or Kafei?

Kafei yes. Skull Kid might be fun though. We're talking Masked Skull Kid here, yeah?

Why would you be frustrated with them? I understand that a lot of people want the vets/rest of the cast to be complete, but the PMBR have made a huge leap in Brawl modding with the Clone/Alt. Costume Engines. I don't think anyone would've thought it possible to reach this level ever and to commemorate for their achievements they decided to show us all what we've wanted for a long time and the fruits of their labor, Roy and Mewtwo. Personally I'm alright with whatever they do and how they go about it, I can only imagine that they're holding on to the other characters because it's much harder to work out the bugs for them as well as give them the right feel; and that once those characters are complete they'll be an even more amazing feat then the characters brought in by the clone engine.

Because the main roster should be finished before adding new characters, in my opinion. Besides, as I recall, that's what they stated they would do in the first place.

I'm not trying to downplay their achievement. I'm incredibly impressed, as are we all. But Roy and Mewtwo shouldn't be a higher priority than the rest of the cast if it can be avoided. Like I said, if there's a technical reason to keep the others for later, then sure. But if the choice was spending time getting these two done or getting the rest of the cast done, in my opinion it should have been spent finishing the rest of the cast. Clone engine characters are extra characters when it comes down to it, no matter how desired they are.

 

[HyperrCrow]

I respect what you're saying Hero, but I rather just follow the PMBR's number one policy at all times.
"Everything is subject to change"
For me, that includes how the roster and whole project is finished, not just the characters.

 

[AnOkayDM]

I respect what you're saying Hero, but I rather just follow the PMBR's number one policy at all times.
"Everything is subject to change"
For me, that includes how the roster and whole project is finished, not just the characters.

Then I can respect that too. It just rubs me a little wrong to go back on a statement like that.

Of course I may be misremembering as well.

 

[trojanpooh]

They've said time and time again that they're a team of different people with different sets of skills. The issues with the rest of the cast are bug fixing which is a much more intensive job than making characters, new or otherwise. Lots of the team is useless to the cause of bug fixing so they just focused on other things. I don't see how this something to be upset at them for.

 

[AnOkayDM]

They've said time and time again that they're a team of different people with different sets of skills. The issues with the rest of the cast are bug fixing which is a much more intensive job than making characters, new or otherwise. Lots of the team is useless to the cause of bug fixing so they just focused on other things. I don't see how this something to be upset at them for.

That makes sense then.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

Oh god, this thread is basically the SSB4 character speculation thread.

Feels that way, I guess the big difference is that I'm excited for things in Project M and mostly don't care what they do with Smash 4.

 

[Strong Badam]

Then I can respect that too. It just rubs me a little wrong to go back on a statement like that.

Of course I may be misremembering as well.

Who's to say the rest of the cast won't be in the next version alongside Mewtwo and Roy? You never know...

 

[HyperrCrow]

Sandbag confirmed for 3.0

 

[Solbliminal]

Kafei yes. Skull Kid might be fun though. We're talking Masked Skull Kid here, yeah?

Well I don't think I would have suggested Kafei if I wasn't referring to Majors reps xD. I personally enjoyed Kafei's side quest and found him to be the most memorable sidequest character. Maybe that's just me. As for Skull Kid, I suggested him mostly because I seen him requested a lot. I wouldn't mind seeing another Zelda rep that isn't another version of Link.

 

[AnOkayDM]

Who's to say the rest of the cast won't be in the next version alongside Mewtwo and Roy? You never know...

That's what I'm hoping! I'm not assuming we're only getting Roy and Mewtwo. My complaints only apply if we do get them instead of more of the cast. I'm hoping that's a big if.

Well I don't think I would have suggested Kafei if I wasn't referring to Majors reps xD. I personally enjoyed Kafei's side quest and found him to be the most memorable sidequest character. Maybe that's just me. As for Skull Kid, I suggested him mostly because I seen him requested a lot. I wouldn't mind seeing another Zelda rep that isn't another version of Link.

Kafei just isn't important enough to warrant a slot. I'm honestly not sure Skull Kid is either, but I wouldn't say no to him. Keep in mind Majora's Mask is my favorite game of all time. I'm just not convinced Skull Kid matters enough to take one of those precious slots.

 

[Solbliminal]

Kafei just isn't important enough to warrant a slot. I'm honestly not sure Skull Kid is either, but I wouldn't say no to him. Keep in mind Majora's Mask is my favorite game of all time. I'm just not convinced Skull Kid matters enough to take one of those precious slots.

Either way. It was merely a suggestion. I personally would rather see other characters myself. Like Primid or Sandbag -bricked-

 

[trojanpooh]

Either way. It was merely a suggestion. I personally would rather see other characters myself. Like Primid or Sandbag -bricked-

And people say Pichu would be a waste of roster space

 

[SmashShadow]

I really hope they pick Toad for this game. He's missed out on all 3 games so far and unlike Junior, his odds don't look good in Smash4 with Peach's neutral special returning. He's got a lot of history and a lot to work with. He's got good models on brawlvault (KTH's model). They could use the kart from the Mario Kart stage. He could shoot ice balls with some editing to the fireball (Maybe even use Mario's old trajectory in contrast with current Mario and Luigi). Then there's the POW block from the old Mario Bros. stage that he used in SMB2. He's got spores and turnips which he could take from Peach as they are actually his moves anyways. There's the propeller hat that he could use for recovery. It's a waste if he's not in SSB4 even if I am a Bowser Junior supporter.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

...not...really?

We're talking about what characters we want them to add next in P:M. I fail to see how that relates to Smash 4 speculation.

Your failure to see it is hardly my fault.

 

[Solbliminal]

And people say Pichu would be a waste of roster space

Pichu confirmed as new Sandbag.

Sandbag confirmed as Double Meta Knight Tier.

But seriously. I wasn't joking about Primid.

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

Here's an interesting question we should ask ourselves about Ganondorf..
How do we want him portrayed? What should his moves consist of if they were to revamp him?
The reason I'm bringing this up is lets say they do decide to change him up, what will they change? Will it be what we expect?

I personally would like him to heavily take his move set from OOT (magic attacks) and then partially from TP (sword attacks), and then perhaps take little bits and pieces from games like LTTP. I feel OOT should be the most important game to look at since this is Project: Melee and Ganondorf was introduced in Melee in his OOT state.

Let me know what you guys think (agree dissagree):

I think his magic projectile is the first and foremost MUST HAVE attack that needs to get in there. I don't know how much they can do with this move, but in my head I have a super detailed amazing way it could work (provided its doable). I'll post it tomorrow if anyone's interested. I'm going to bed in a sec

Next I think his ground pound shockwave move from OOT should get in there. This one I think is fairly self explanatory.

Then there are some moves that I think would be nice but perhaps not as high on the list.. for example, when you get to ganons piano room, he uses dark magic to kind of push link away and suppress his power (or whatever lol). So I was thinking maybe some kinda of flinch-less force push would fit nicely. This could be done as a chargeable B attack or even a quick A attack. I've done a simple mod where his A Jab has a force push attached to it.

Another possibility could be a cape reflect move like mario for his side B.

As for the sword moves.. one option could be to make down B (or some other command) pull out his sword/put it away, thus giving him a full set of sword moves.
This second option however, I believe would be better (I know many people may disagree with this). I think his A attacks should be heavily based on sword attacks. I don't think Ganondorf needs specials that are sword attacks as much. His sword moves in games are very limited and generic, so giving him sword specials would kinda be forcing it. What kind of really good and original sword attacks could you give him, other than perhaps being able to shoot a projectile out of his sword.. which isn't even a sword attack lol.. That's my take on that.

Finally the LTTP stuff.. He could use electricity for some moves. Perhaps he can shoot electricity for a B special, or during a throw animation (also something I've done in my hack in a more primitive way).

Also he could have a teleport move like in LTTP and/or TP.

Some other little things... his dash animation I think should be a floating animation similar to Mewtwos, and he should be able to float like Peach/Mewtwo, but have his own twist to his float ability.

So what do you guys think.. are people on the same page with this (or at least a similar page)? Or do you guys have totally different expectations? What do you agree with and disagree with?

 

[EdgeTheLucas]

Hey everyone. Long time lurker here, I've been following the PM forums for over a year now and even though I'm not a "pro" at it or Melee (can't moonwalk or dacus still, plus I don't know how to use wavedashing and such), I love what the PMBR has done with Melee's sensibility in the brawl environment. I like playing casually and such.

So yeah, just wanted to get that out before I request an unpopular character for this totally rad clone engine thing: Toad. I see that SmashShadow suggested this already, so I just wanted to let him know that he's not alone. As for the whole "he's already Peach's special" the solution would be to make this Toad's default color blue, like in Super Mario Bros. 2 and 3D World. Peach's Toad is red, so this could be a clear indicator that he's different.

As for my own ideas surrounding a possible moveset I think his up special should be the propeller hat from NSMB Wii, where he'd rise in the air while damaging other fighters with the hat's blades. At the end of the move the hat would separate and fly on its own, which could use Snake's Cypher properties reskinned as the hat since PMBR can't make its own projectiles from scratch yet. His other specials could be inspired by SMB2 or NSMB, while his most powerful regular attacks and aerials would incorporate Toad's big old head. That thing looks like it can HURT.

I understand that there are WAY better choices for the remaining 5 slots and I like these discussions concerning characters like Dixie Kong and Black Shadow taking over Ganon's moveset and making him his own character (a discussion that just started that I hope I'm not interrupting). I'm also aware that adding yet another Mario character is a bit of a stretch. It's just that I akways thought it was weird to see Peach use abilities from SMB2, so I thought it'd be likely that Toad would be included similarly but to no avail. So even if PMBR won't consider, I'll be fine knowing I can vent about this here

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Here's an interesting question we should ask ourselves about Ganondorf..
How do we want him portrayed? What should his moves consist of if they were to revamp him?
The reason I'm bringing this up is lets say they do decide to change him up, what will they change? Will it be what we expect?

I personally would like him to heavily take his move set from OOT (magic attacks) and then partially from TP (sword attacks), and then perhaps take little bits and pieces from games like LTTP. I feel OOT should be the most important game to look at since this is Project: Melee and Ganondorf was introduced in Melee in his OOT state.

Let me know what you guys think (agree dissagree):

I think his magic projectile is the first and foremost MUST HAVE attack that needs to get in there. I don't know how much they can do with this move, but in my head I have a super detailed amazing way it could work (provided its doable). I'll post it tomorrow if anyone's interested. I'm going to bed in a sec

Next I think his ground pound shockwave move from OOT should get in there. This one I think is fairly self explanatory.

Then there are some moves that I think would be nice but perhaps not as high on the list.. for example, when you get to ganons piano room, he uses dark magic to kind of push link away and suppress his power (or whatever lol). So I was thinking maybe some kinda of flinch-less force push would fit nicely. This could be done as a chargeable B attack or even a quick A attack. I've done a simple mod where his A Jab has a force push attached to it.

Another possibility could be a cape reflect move like mario for his side B.

As for the sword moves.. one option could be to make down B (or some other command) pull out his sword/put it away, thus giving him a full set of sword moves.
This second option however, I believe would be better (I know many people may disagree with this). I think his A attacks should be heavily based on sword attacks. I don't think Ganondorf needs specials that are sword attacks as much. His sword moves in games are very limited and generic, so giving him sword specials would kinda be forcing it. What kind of really good and original sword attacks could you give him, other than perhaps being able to shoot a projectile out of his sword.. which isn't even a sword attack lol.. That's my take on that.

Finally the LTTP stuff.. He could use electricity for some moves. Perhaps he can shoot electricity for a B special, or during a throw animation (also something I've done in my hack in a more primitive way).

Also he could have a teleport move like in LTTP and/or TP.

Some other little things... his dash animation I think should be a floating animation similar to Mewtwos, and he should be able to float like Peach/Mewtwo, but have his own twist to his float ability.

So what do you guys think.. are people on the same page with this (or at least a similar page)? Or do you guys have totally different expectations? What do you agree with and disagree with?

Dude, wtf? Stop talking about them changing Ganondorf. They aren't doing that. If they were gonna change his moveset, he wouldn't already be in the ****ing game. Any changes he gets would be minor balance things. You are having a pointless discussion with yourself. Ganondorf is already a character.

 

[HyperrCrow]

Edit: Ninja'd

 

[Anti Guy]

Dude, wtf? Stop talking about them changing Ganondorf. They aren't doing that. If they were gonna change his moveset, he wouldn't already be in the ****ing game. Any changes he gets would be minor balance things. You are having a pointless discussion with yourself. Ganondorf is already a character.

Dude, wtf? Have you missed the rest of the thread?

The idea is to have the current Captain Ganondorf be reskinned as Black Shadow (or possibly Samurai Goroh), meaning his moveset DOES NOT CHANGE.

Then using the clone slot, use the current model of Ganondorf and give him a new moveset as a new character.

Something else to consider is that the PMBR changed many of Wario's moves to make him truer to his Wario Land incarnation. If they have that mindset, I don't see why they can't do something for Ganondorf.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Did you read the post i quoted? He was talking about changing ganondorf.

#Quit life.

 

[Anti Guy]

Did you read the post i quoted? He was talking about changing ganondorf.

#Quit life.

Yes. And have you read all his previous posts on the thread? I even quoted his first post about it like page or so back. He's using "change Ganondorf" in the context of making him the new character.

#Stfu before using ******** hash tags.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

He's talking about giving him Ganondorf's moves from OoT. I dunno who the hell Black Shadow is, but i'm reasonably certain it wouldn't make sense to give him Ganondorf's moveset from OoT. I damn sure know it wouldn't make sense for freaking Samurai Goroh. He's talking about Ganondorf.

 

[Anti Guy]

Black Shadow is Captain Falcon's archnemesis from F-Zero, you know the game that Captain is from. He's big, uses shadow stuff like a certain character borrowing from Falcon's moves.

He's talking about giving him Ganondorf's moves from OoT. I dunno who the hell Black Shadow is, but i'm reasonably certain it wouldn't make sense to give him Ganondorf's moveset from OoT. I damn sure know it wouldn't make sense for freaking Samurai Goroh. He's talking about Ganondorf.

Dude, wtf? Have you missed the rest of the thread?

The idea is to have the current Captain Ganondorf be reskinned as Black Shadow (or possibly Samurai Goroh), meaning his moveset DOES NOT CHANGE.

Then using the clone slot, use the current model of Ganondorf and give him a new moveset as a new character.

Seriously, it isn't a hard concept to grasp.

 

[Protom]

Dude, wtf? Stop talking about them changing Ganondorf. They aren't doing that. If they were gonna change his moveset, he wouldn't already be in the ****ing game. Any changes he gets would be minor balance things. You are having a pointless discussion with yourself. Ganondorf is already a character.

Everything is subject to change

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Black Shadow is Captain Falcon's archnemesis from F-Zero, you know the game that Captain is from. He's big, uses shadow stuff like a certain character borrowing from Falcon's moves.






Seriously, it isn't a hard concept to grasp.

none of that is possible as you describe it. Not one bit of it. He's talking about giving the character magical projectiles, something that ganondorf doesn't have in smash. You can't add those, you have to clone a character that already has a projectile. Try again, smartass. That's NOT what he's talking about. At all. He's talking about changing Ganondorf's moveset.

 

[Ninka_kiwi]

Yeah, but we're talking about creating and implementing a whole new character here. Two, in fact. I find it difficult to believe that anything Samus or Yoshi can throw at them is tougher than that. Maybe Olimar and the ICs, and I understand Kirby with adding new abilities and hats, but...

From what I've seen while messing around with Character movesets, Samus has a very low file size, which is effected by Zero Suit Samus' moveset files, which could lead to some nasty problems if they really wanted to edit her. I believe I also read her floatyness is also a problem for balancing. Yoshi has some weird stuff in his code that makes it so he can't wavedash, so I'm assuming trouble reverse engineering that is a problem (The weirdest thing about Yoshi is I remember him being worked on for Demo 2.0, but he was never actually implemented into it)

As for Olimar and Ice climbers? Their PSA is boarderline impossible to mess with, making them a very tricky two characters to balance.

Kirby is self explanatory for all the effort that would go into making his hats fit current movesets, as well as having hats for additional characters like Mewtwo or Roy. Kirby's PSA other then is copy ability really isn't that restrictive though.

So yeah, I might not be entrily right as to why these characters aren't in yet, but I've messed around with PSA enough to assume why it's taking so long for those characters in particular.

 

[Anti Guy]

You can't add those, you have to clone a character that already has a projectile. Try again, smartass. That's NOT what he's talking about. At all. He's talking about changing Ganondorf's moveset.

You can't add those, you have to clone a character that already has a projectile. Try again, smartass. That's NOT what he's talking about. At all. He's talking about changing Ganondorf's moveset.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMd6wAoqsJ4 I wonder what happened here, bra?? Mewtwo is obviously a complete clone of a character!

Forget it, either you're trolling or you have a head slower than molasses running uphill. Talking to you is like talking to a brick wall.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMd6wAoqsJ4 I wonder what happened here, bra?? Mewtwo is obviously a complete clone of a character!

Forget it, either you're trolling or you have a head slower than molasses running uphill. Talking to you is like talking to a brick wall.

He's a clone of Lucario, dumbass. He's not a clone of Ganondorf. Omfg, why are you arguing technical stuff that you don't know anything about?

/done

#learn reading comprehension

 

[Cocochap]

How about Kat and Ana as an Ice Climbers clone?
I think that'd be kinda cool.

 

[Virum]

Who's to say the rest of the cast won't be in the next version alongside Mewtwo and Roy? You never know...

It's a mystery...