Clone Engine Misc. Discussion Thread

[shinhed-echi]

Hmm.. I have been a victim to some changes that I don't agree with.

Sonic for example plays nothing like in Brawl. He may be "better" but he feels really clunky to me. I can apply pretty much nothing of what took me two years to master as him.

Pokemon Trainer without the switch mechanic is a let down and kinda beats the whole purpose of the 3 starters even being there. (At least to me)

The only two characters that I loved in Brawl were heavily changed (at least Sonic), and I've no interest playing as the starters in standalone mode. (Though I do so for kicks, from time to time, I just don't feel like maining either of them)


So I know there are some people who would not be alright playing as Black Shadow that used to be Ganon. People most likely already fell in love with their character and his moveset, so why change it?

Don't want to sound whiny or unappreaciative BTW, I LOVE this game.. but I've been forced to move to other characters because I'm just not alright with the changes made to my Brawl mains. (I can only hope Samus retains her integrity). XD
I've sorta come to terms with Wario and the Mario Bros because I mained them in Melee.. but that's it.


(Also not alright with ROB's Gyro not covering a long distance when released, lol)

 

[OrangeSodaGuy]

If they bring Pichu back, I want him to suck just as bad as he did in Melee. Sandbag character ftw.

I can see where you're coming from on this. I think they should retool him to give him a distinct identity and playstyle to differentiate him from Pikachu, but I still agree that he should be the sandbag character who's clearly weaker than the rest of the fighters.

It's nice to see some Mother love as well. The series is good on playable character representation with Ness and Lucas IMO, but it would still be great to see cameos from other characters like Paula, Jeff, Poo, Duster, Kumatora, Flint, and others. Even extra cameos from relatively obscure characters like Apple Kid, Dr. Andonuts, the Runaway Five, the Tendas, Flying Men, and some of the enemies (New Age Retro Hippies, Starmen, Belch, etc).

Is a Moonside stage at all feasible? If not another stage based on Twoson, or the Cave of the Past.

I was seriously miffed that Paula and Poo didn't even get trophies in Brawl (when Ness' whole posse all got trophies in Melee).

 

[shinhed-echi]

Would it be too criminal to want Ninten as the new Mother rep?

Mother 1 was a beautiful game. (Heck, I liked it better than Mother 3) I know he looks a lot like Ness, but there are some KCMM textures that manage to make him look like Ninten (handkerchief, slightly different shirt stripe colors, cap, etc)

And how about an Asthma gimmick? XD

 

[EdgeTheLucas]

Hey BronzeGreekGod, maybe it was MY fault your whole Ganon/Black Shadow got sidetracked since I posted my message right after yours early this morning and I made it about Toad. So let me make up for PrivateJoker-Brown's lovably wacky antics by adding to your discussion instead of talking about whether it should happen or not. As somebody said, everything is subject to change and since the PMBR has no plans to actually work with brand new characters, so this would all be fun theoretical talk anyway.

I think the new Ganon could use either Lucario or Ike as a base, Lucario if we want him to feel limp and lightweight in animation and Ike for his heaviness Yes, Ganon should actually use his sword PLEASE though using Lucario's assets for energy attacks might be more desired. As for moves his standard-b could be him holding an energy ball above his head ala OoT as a hitbox that he could throw by letting go of the button. Think of the combo potential what with possible juggling while also having a good projectile baiting game, like harassing people into coming closer or getting people concerned as to whether he'll actually throw it or not. This last thing could be balanced out by being forced to throw it after like 2 or 3 seconds. If he uses his sword it shouldn't be all the time since he's shown how strong he is without it. Either it could be used quicker and have longer reach than either Links' swords or come out slower and more powerful. Some animations could be edited from Ike since he hits like a train anyway and his swings suit that property. As for other specials don't have totally great ideas other than his sky-jump attack from TP that he uses against Link (won't spoil where he uses it, like BronzeGreekGod) which could work like Kirby's or Dedede's up-B (not like Ike's since we would already be using his animations and body weight).

Any other ideas?

 

[#HBC | Joker]

I fail to see how me saying "I think changing Ganondorf is a terrible idea, and they shouldn't do that at all." Followed by Anti Guy coming in and saying "He's not talking about changing Ganondorf, he's just talking about changing him, completely." Qualifies as "my wacky antics"

but ok, continue your SSB4 character speculation discussion in the PM boards.

 

[red9rd]

Would it be too criminal to want Ninten as the new Mother rep?

Mother 1 was a beautiful game. (Heck, I liked it better than Mother 3) I know he looks a lot like Ness, but there are some KCMM textures that manage to make him look like Ninten (handkerchief, slightly different shirt stripe colors, cap, etc)

And how about an Asthma gimmick? XD

Damn Is Mother that much better then Mother 3? Ive been waiting for the fan remake to be done to play it.

 

[HyperrCrow]

Let's just replace the whole Smash cast with the Melty Blood cast, add Pichu as the only Ninten rep and call it a day.
Project Melty Blood Actress Again Current Code v3.0, coming Winter 2013.

 

[ChronoBound]

At this point any newcomers that add in is going to be a game of musical chairs.

I would say this is their pool as far as popular requests go:
Isaac
Ridley
Dixie Kong
Lyn
Sami/Andy
Black Shadow (with de-cloned Ganondorf)
Pichu
Waluigi
Bowser Jr.
2nd Sonic character (Shadow and Knuckles mostly)
Samurai Goroh

I think that is it.

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

Hey BronzeGreekGod, maybe it was MY fault your whole Ganon/Black Shadow got sidetracked since I posted my message right after yours early this morning and I made it about Toad. So let me make up for PrivateJoker-Brown's lovably wacky antics by adding to your discussion instead of talking about whether it should happen or not. As somebody said, everything is subject to change and since the PMBR has no plans to actually work with brand new characters, so this would all be fun theoretical talk anyway.

I think the new Ganon could use either Lucario or Ike as a base, Lucario if we want him to feel limp and lightweight in animation and Ike for his heaviness Yes, Ganon should actually use his sword PLEASE though using Lucario's assets for energy attacks might be more desired. As for moves his standard-b could be him holding an energy ball above his head ala OoT as a hitbox that he could throw by letting go of the button. Think of the combo potential what with possible juggling while also having a good projectile baiting game, like harassing people into coming closer or getting people concerned as to whether he'll actually throw it or not. This last thing could be balanced out by being forced to throw it after like 2 or 3 seconds. If he uses his sword it shouldn't be all the time since he's shown how strong he is without it. Either it could be used quicker and have longer reach than either Links' swords or come out slower and more powerful. Some animations could be edited from Ike since he hits like a train anyway and his swings suit that property. As for other specials don't have totally great ideas other than his sky-jump attack from TP that he uses against Link (won't spoil where he uses it, like BronzeGreekGod) which could work like Kirby's or Dedede's up-B (not like Ike's since we would already be using his animations and body weight).

Any other ideas?

Hahah thanks for the feedback :D
K so first off, I agree with Lucario or Ike (more toward Lucario obviously). Now, using Lucario as a base doesn't mean he would have to be limp or lightweight.. they can very much alter his playstyle from Lucarios. The main reason Lucario is my main choice is because the Aura sphere is a great article they could work with for a magic energy ball attack.

As for sword attacks, ABSOLUTELY. He should have sword attacks for sure. However, like I mentioned before, I'm thinking he would simply use his sword for some moves, but not for others. So ideally, in his model he could have his sword in his hand most of the time and he would use it for certain attacks, while for other attacks where he doesn't use the sword he could put it away the way link would (preferably in a sheath which could be added to his character model). This could also work the other way where the sword is always in the sheath until he actually uses it for particular moves. Something cool I was also thinking (if this was possible) would be if whenever he put the sword away it would stay away until he uses it again, and when he pulls it out it stays in his hand until he puts it away.. Does this make sense? I'm not sure how to explain.

Now back to the magic attack.. my inspiration strongly comes from his OOT incarnation. Many people have a very simple vision of this move whereas I have put much deeper thought into it.

First of all (this part is straight forward) the GFX of the aura sphere would need some work to make it look more like it does in OOT (yellow and non transparent).
Second, the move would be chargeable (obviously). Now, when the move is charged and shot, the more it is charged the more powerful it becomes, and also the faster it moves.
Next, this is where the hacking could become difficult. The animation to the charge would be similar to OOT (above his head) and when it's shot, if hes on the ground it would move straight forward (with no wiggle), but if in air, he would shoot it at an angle toward the ground (still with no wiggle).

Now from here on, I'm not even sure if this is possible. I'm thinking that if you charge the move to its full potential, it becomes the scatter shot from OOT. In this case Ganondorf would shoot out 5 magic balls which do wiggle. They would be scattered of course, and they would be covering a lot of area, so to make this not OP'ed, it could be made so that each magic ball is a lot weaker (kind of like the power was split into 5 separate balls rather than all in one). This makes the move difficult to dodge, and can cause some damage, but it would not be a devastating kill move. Thus not fully charging it might be a tactic in order to kill opponents!

Finally, this is the least likely possibility, but also the coolest
When not charged as a scatter shot, I think the magic attack should be reflectable by all attacks (not only reflectors). That is a normal A attack would reflect the move. The trajectory and strength of the attack used to reflect the ball would affect the speed at which it is knocked back as well as the direction the ball moves in and how much more powerful it becomes. Each time the ball is hit 3 things would happen (perhaps 2 if the 3rd one is impossible). 1 the speed of the ball is increased, 2 the damage and knockback growth increase and 3 the lifetime of the attack would be replenished (at least partially) so that it doesn't just disappear after one reflect. This would make for some cool tennis battles with the magic blast!

Again I know a lot of what I just said might be completely impossible, but if even some of it would work, that would be BOSS.

Thoughts?

 

[ChronoBound]

One more thing if Black Shadow gets in they have to use Norio Wakamoto's voice for him. Whenever requests for him come up in Japan, half the time they say they wish for Norio Wakamoto to reprise his role as Black Shadow for Smash Bros. (he voiced Black Shadow in the F-Zero anime).

This would be tricky, they would basically have to import voice clips from the anime.

That is basically another obstacle for potential characters to include is voice clips.

 

[OmegaMuffin]

Alright so. I'm gonna stop lurking for just a moment.

I'm probably gonna catch some flak for this but..
Amy Rose.

Just think about it. She has a lot of places to draw inspiration for her moveset, she can actually fight (sorry Tails..) and we need another female to play as.
Who doesn't want to smack people around with a giant pink hammer, amirite?

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

One more thing if Black Shadow gets in they have to use Norio Wakamoto's voice for him. Whenever requests for him come up in Japan, half the time they say they wish for Norio Wakamoto to reprise his role as Black Shadow for Smash Bros. (he voiced Black Shadow in the F-Zero anime).

This would be tricky, they would basically have to import voice clips from the anime.

That is basically another obstacle for potential characters to include is voice clips.

Ya its def a bit of a challenge, but I think its the smallest issue for this whole Black Shadow/Ganondorf debate

 

[ChronoBound]

About Amy:
The only thing worse than loli upskirts in Smash Bros. are furry loli upskirts in Smash Bros.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

Damn Is Mother that much better then Mother 3? Ive been waiting for the fan remake to be done to play it.

No it wasn't. Mother 3 was a much better story and game.

 

[ChronoBound]

No it wasn't. Mother 3 was a much better story and game.

Yeah the original Mother is dated, like most NES/Famicom RPGs.

 

[red9rd]

I just like the third the best for how dark it was.

 

[Solbliminal]

At this point any newcomers that add in is going to be a game of musical chairs.

I would say this is their pool as far as popular requests go:
Isaac
Ridley
Dixie Kong
Lyn
Sami/Andy
Black Shadow (with de-cloned Ganondorf)
Pichu
Waluigi
Bowser Jr.
2nd Sonic character (Shadow and Knuckles mostly)
Samurai Goroh

I think that is it.

Don't forget Sukapon. He has been brought up quite a bit.

 

[Solbliminal]

Alright so. I'm gonna stop lurking for just a moment.

I'm probably gonna catch some flak for this but..
Amy Rose.

Just think about it. She has a lot of places to draw inspiration for her moveset, she can actually fight (sorry Tails..) and we need another female to play as.
Who doesn't want to smack people around with a giant pink hammer, amirite?

I'll just say that not many Smash or Sonic fans would want that nearly as much as say Shadow, Knuckles or Tails. If anything, Blaze would be a more plausible female Rep for Sonic since she was introduced on Nintendo exclusive series and is good for the semi-clone status P:M is shooting for. To sum it up, she would be Sonic's Roy.

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

Quick question.. is there a SSB4 character discussion thread on the P:M forums?

 

[ChronoBound]

Quick question.. is there a SSB4 character discussion thread on the P:M forums?

No. Smash 4 character discussion stuff is on the Smash 4 section of SmashBoards.

 

[red9rd]

I'll just say that not many Smash or Sonic fans would want that nearly as much as say Shadow, Knuckles or Tails. If anything, Blaze would be a more plausible female Rep for Sonic since she was introduced on Nintendo exclusive series and is good for the semi-clone status P:M is shooting for. To sum it up, she would be Sonic's Roy.

Can we all agree Sonic has way to many friends?

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

No. Smash 4 character discussion stuff is on the Smash 4 section of SmashBoards.

K thanks :D

I just made a petition about black shadow/ganondorf on change.org and posted it on that forum..
Anyone who agrees with me, please head over there and sign the petition. I wana make some noise for sakurai! Maybe something can happen for smash4!

 

[ChronoBound]

K thanks :D

I just made a petition about black shadow/ganondorf on change.org and posted it on that forum..
Anyone who agrees with me, please head over there and sign the petition. I wana make some noise for sakurai! Maybe something can happen for smash4!

Sakurai very likely will not hear that petition no likely how big it gets, and secondly, he probably is working on Ganondorf as we speak.

Like I said, I think its for the best to wait and see what Sakurai does with Smash 4. I think at the very least Ganondorf is going to have more different moves this time than he did in Brawl.

 

[EdgeTheLucas]

Hahah thanks for the feedback :D
K so first off, I agree with Lucario or Ike (more toward Lucario obviously). Now, using Lucario as a base doesn't mean he would have to be limp or lightweight.. they can very much alter his playstyle from Lucarios. The main reason Lucario is my main choice is because the Aura sphere is a great article they could work with for a magic energy ball attack.

As for sword attacks, ABSOLUTELY. He should have sword attacks for sure. However, like I mentioned before, I'm thinking he would simply use his sword for some moves, but not for others. So ideally, in his model he could have his sword in his hand most of the time and he would use it for certain attacks, while for other attacks where he doesn't use the sword he could put it away the way link would (preferably in a sheath which could be added to his character model). This could also work the other way where the sword is always in the sheath until he actually uses it for particular moves. Something cool I was also thinking (if this was possible) would be if whenever he put the sword away it would stay away until he uses it again, and when he pulls it out it stays in his hand until he puts it away.. Does this make sense? I'm not sure how to explain.

Now back to the magic attack.. my inspiration strongly comes from his OOT incarnation. Many people have a very simple vision of this move whereas I have put much deeper thought into it.

First of all (this part is straight forward) the GFX of the aura sphere would need some work to make it look more like it does in OOT (yellow and non transparent).
Second, the move would be chargeable (obviously). Now, when the move is charged and shot, the more it is charged the more powerful it becomes, and also the faster it moves.
Next, this is where the hacking could become difficult. The animation to the charge would be similar to OOT (above his head) and when it's shot, if hes on the ground it would move straight forward (with no wiggle), but if in air, he would shoot it at an angle toward the ground (still with no wiggle).

Now from here on, I'm not even sure if this is possible. I'm thinking that if you charge the move to its full potential, it becomes the scatter shot from OOT. In this case Ganondorf would shoot out 5 magic balls which do wiggle. They would be scattered of course, and they would be covering a lot of area, so to make this not OP'ed, it could be made so that each magic ball is a lot weaker (kind of like the power was split into 5 separate balls rather than all in one). This makes the move difficult to dodge, and can cause some damage, but it would not be a devastating kill move. Thus not fully charging it might be a tactic in order to kill opponents!

Finally, this is the least likely possibility, but also the coolest
When not charged as a scatter shot, I think the magic attack should be reflectable by all attacks (not only reflectors). That is a normal A attack would reflect the move. The trajectory and strength of the attack used to reflect the ball would affect the speed at which it is knocked back as well as the direction the ball moves in and how much more powerful it becomes. Each time the ball is hit 3 things would happen (perhaps 2 if the 3rd one is impossible). 1 the speed of the ball is increased, 2 the damage and knockback growth increase and 3 the lifetime of the attack would be replenished (at least partially) so that it doesn't just disappear after one reflect. This would make for some cool tennis battles with the magic blast!

Again I know a lot of what I just said might be completely impossible, but if even some of it would work, that would be BOSS.

Thoughts?

Wow, then his whole playstyle would revolve around that one move (I can imagine Kirby using it now holy s*** lol). Yeah while the energy reflecting tennis would be cool, it makes him a sort of risk/reward character which I personally don't think would suit Ganon too much. The thing I was talking about would have the energy ball you mentioned work like Dedede's hammer (again, it could use the properties) in that you can walk around and jump while holding it but would be forced to fire it as a projectile (maybe angled, maybe not) anyway very quickly. I should mention that Ganon's holding it right above his head, so if it had a hitbox while being held (like Lucario's or Mewtwo's energy ball) it could make for some cool juggling or below-opponent possibilities. Like finally grabbing somebody with a presumably bad grab range he'd have to be rewarded with an up throw that could lead in to jumping up and holding the energy ball on him or her for a combo with good knockback. It would make Ganon tricky yet brutish, which I think fits him better as a character and a fighter.

Not that your idea isn't cool btw, not trashing. If your version was in the game Ganon would still be a fun character to use. I wouldn't know about his other specials other than the up-B I already mentioned. Oh and I TOTALLY get the sword thing, basically it would be like Pit switching between his bow and the two blades that it make it up. Cool!

Oh and I was only teasing, PrivateJoker-Brown. It's just that you came off as REALLY aggressive and it was kind of weird so no hard feelings please

 

[red9rd]

K thanks :D

I just made a petition about black shadow/ganondorf on change.org and posted it on that forum..
Anyone who agrees with me, please head over there and sign the petition. I wana make some noise for sakurai! Maybe something can happen for smash4!

Yeah I think Nintendo is going to try break the rules of Smash Bros. like they said they will try to do with the Zelda series.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

I think OmegaMuffin's suggestion is exactly as likely to get in as all the other things you guys have suggested. The fact that you guys have Lyn, and Samurai Goroh as possible candidates, but you laugh at someone who suggests Amy Rose, is ********.

Just know that I'm laughing at you all too.

 

[ChronoBound]

I think OmegaMuffin's suggestion is exactly as likely to get in as all the other things you guys have suggested. The fact that you guys have Lyn, and Samurai Goroh as possible candidates, but you laugh at someone who suggests Amy Rose, is ********.

Just know that I'm laughing at you all too.

One is a side character to a third-party franchise.

The other two were notable enough to be the sole Assist Trophies to their franchises in Brawl.

Seems like a big difference to me.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

You'd be wrong

 

[red9rd]

One is a side character to a third-party franchise.

The other two were notable enough to be the sole Assist Trophies to their franchises in Brawl.

Seems like a big difference to me.

ugh we could bring up Shadow then

 

[ChronoBound]

ugh we could bring up Shadow then

There is a difference between Nintendo and third-party franchises.

 

[red9rd]

I believe they said as long as its in Brawl its eligible

 

[Solbliminal]

Can we all agree Sonic has way to many friends?

I'm not complaining. I generally like most of them with the acception of Big the Cat and the Babylon Rogues. (Yes I actually like Silver and Shadow, bite me).

 

[HyperrCrow]

with the exception* of Big the Cat and the Babylon Rogues.

How can you hate Jet? Guy is too cool

 

[red9rd]

I'm not complaining. I generally like most of them with the acception of Big the Cat and the Babylon Rogues. (Yes I actually like Silver and Shadow, bite me).

No I'm cool with Shadow until post Adventure 2 (Shadow standalone ugh) I just hate how Sonic has almost no enemy's because he befriends them all.
Now that I Think about all Sonic games went down hill (edit More like jumped down a cliff) after Adventure 2

 

[AnOkayDM]

I fail to see how me saying "I think changing Ganondorf is a terrible idea, and they shouldn't do that at all." Followed by Anti Guy coming in and saying "He's not talking about changing Ganondorf, he's just talking about changing him, completely." Qualifies as "my wacky antics"

but ok, continue your SSB4 character speculation discussion in the PM boards.

Your failure to see it is hardly our fault.

 

[Solbliminal]

I think OmegaMuffin's suggestion is exactly as likely to get in as all the other things you guys have suggested. The fact that you guys have Lyn, and Samurai Goroh as possible candidates, but you laugh at someone who suggests Amy Rose, is ********.

Just know that I'm laughing at you all too.

I wasn't laughing at that persons suggestion if you are clumping me into that list. I generally don't mind Amy as a choice, I just provided my opinions. If anything I find it unfair that any Sonic fan is scolded for even breathing on these forums. It is damn near discrimination, which is pretty stupid.

@all haters - Oh yes, Sonic fans are vile sick and twisted people who hide in their closets, surfing the interwebs on their homes, DeviantArt and Fur Affinity. They fap to animal cartoon pronz and feast on human souls. We are so vile, we indulge ourselves in making suggestions on Smash forums to take 1 of the 5 rare and Nintendo exclusive slots in P:M. How dare us Sonic fans. Shame on us.

 

[EdgeTheLucas]

I want to join in on the Mother rep discussion that started earlier in this thread since EarthBound and Mother 3 are 2 of my favorite games ever (though I also enjoyed Mother 1).

First of all I don't want a Masked Man character at all simply because a large number of people would find out who he is, so that when Nintendo finally decides to release Mother 3 here legally nobody would be surprise. I understand how cool he'd be as a fighter but I played OoT after Melee so the big "Shiek was Zelda all along" twist was ruined for me and I don't want something like that for other people.

Though I heavily condone Ganon becoming his own character I personally like both Ness and Lucas the way they are, believe it or not. Some might say that Ness should be brand new while they add Paula to take over Ness' current moveset, while others say the same should happen to Lucas (with Kumatora instead). However, I grew to like that both characters, while clones of each other, are representative of their entire final party in both games. Ness has his PK Flash as well as Paula's and Poo's PK Fire and PK Thunder (Jeff made it in as an assist trophy so his lack of representation in Ness doesn't really bother me). Lucas on the other hand has his PK Love attacks represented with many of his regular attacks being its hexagonal shape already, and Project M made him more unique by giving him Offense Up from his movelist in Mother 3. PK Thunder and PK Freeze are both from Kumatora, and the Rope Snake he uses is Duster's. The only party member from Mother 3 not represented by Lucas is Boney but that's because Boney's sheer badassness would immediately make Lucas the most overpowered character in the game lol

So for me the only logical thing to do if they add a Mother rep would be to add Ninten from Mother 1. He could have Ana's PK Beam attack as a unique move (it could work sort of like R.O.B.'s laser or at least use its properties) and some of his own moves like 4th-D Slip (a teleport move). Another special could be using a boomerang since it's one of the most powerful weapons in that game. My idea would be for it not to work like either of the Links but instead like Kirby's Cutter ability where it goes straight doesn't come back if you hit someone directly with it before it starts returning to you (just like real life boomerangs, btw). Basically he'd be like Lucas in that he'd get only 2 projectiles, though both of these are much different than either Ness or Lucas. Perhaps one last special would be Quick Up, which could work like Fox's side-B or Pikachu's up-B.

 

[Solbliminal]

How can you hate Jet? Guy is too cool

His voice does a pretty good job of leveling my ear drums. But if he is in your taste, I'm not going to hate on you for it. XD

 

[HyperrCrow]

His voice does a pretty good job of leveling my ear drums. But if he is in your taste, I'm not going to hate on you for it. XD

You know, I forgot about his voice for a second.. nevermind. He looks cool, but sounds horrid.

 

[red9rd]

I want to join in on the Mother rep discussion that started earlier in this thread since EarthBound and Mother 3 are 2 of my favorite games ever (though I also enjoyed Mother 1).

First of all I don't want a Masked Man character at all simply because a large number of people would find out who he is, so that when Nintendo finally decides to release Mother 3 here legally nobody would be surprise. I understand how cool he'd be as a fighter but I played OoT after Melee so the big "Shiek was Zelda all along" twist was ruined for me and I don't want something like that for other people.

Though I heavily condone Ganon becoming his own character I personally like both Ness and Lucas the way they are, believe it or not. Some might say that Ness should be brand new while they add Paula to take over Ness' current moveset, while others say the same should happen to Lucas (with Kumatora instead). However, I grew to like that both characters, while clones of each other, are representative of their entire final party in both games. Ness has his PK Flash as well as Paula's and Poo's PK Fire and PK Thunder (Jeff made it in as an assist trophy so his lack of representation in Ness doesn't really bother me). Lucas on the other hand has his PK Love attacks represented with many of his regular attacks being its hexagonal shape already, and Project M made him more unique by giving him Offense Up from his movelist in Mother 3. PK Thunder and PK Freeze are both from Kumatora, and the Rope Snake he uses is Duster's. The only party member from Mother 3 not represented by Lucas is Boney but that's because Boney's sheer badassness would immediately make Lucas the most overpowered character in the game lol

So for me the only logical thing to do if they add a Mother rep would be to add Ninten from Mother 1. He could have Ana's PK Beam attack as a unique move (it could work sort of like R.O.B.'s laser or at least use its properties) and some of his own moves like 4th-D Slip (a teleport move). Another special could be using a boomerang since it's one of the most powerful weapons in that game. My idea would be for it not to work like either of the Links but instead like Kirby's Cutter ability where it goes straight doesn't come back if you hit someone directly with it before it starts returning to you (just like real life boomerangs, btw). Basically he'd be like Lucas in that he'd get only 2 projectiles, though both of these are much different than either Ness or Lucas. Perhaps one last special would be Quick Up, which could work like Fox's side-B or Pikachu's up-B.

You forgot Salsa and I don't think The rope snake was the best way to to rep Duster when he had so much potential. Can't say much about the first Mother since I have been waiting for the fan remake. as for the Gannon thing all I can say is if someone said that the character I loved and played for so many great years was being totally converted I would be PISSED and even if you said his moveset was being given to someone else... Its still not the god damn same