Clone Engine Misc. Discussion Thread

[OrangeSodaGuy]

I still say Pichu needs to be playable again. If they can make Mewtwo viable it should be a cakewalk to make Pichu viable too. He already had the workings of a great character in place. The only thing that kept him from being better than Pikachu was his weight and his self damage gimmick. Concerning the damage mechanic the way I see it the PMBR would have two options for the approach:

1) Remove the mechanic.
2) Leave the mechanic but buff the hell out of all the moves that damage him making Pichu a super compelling risk/reward character. These could include combo, kill, gimp, etc moves that worked especially well but left Pichu at a higher percent.

What many people don't realize is that Pichu is fairly capable if the player simply avoids the moves that damage him. It makes for an interesting character, but I think it'd make him even more interesting if the player was encouraged to use those attacks. It may be a good idea to tone down the quantity of attacks that inflict damage to yourself though, just to make him a bit less formulaic whilst avoiding hurting himself.

I'm actually with you on this one.
So far, the most common anti-Pichu arguments I've been seeing are as follows...

1). He was garbage in Melee, so he shouldn't come back:

Half the fun of Project M is taking previously trash-tier/poorly balanced/meh characters, giving them interesting playstyles, and making them legitimate threats. Mewtwo and Roy weren't good in Melee either. (Roy isn't even that good in his own game!) If we want to go by the "if ithey weren't good in Melee they shouldn't be brought back" mindset, then Jiggs, Sheik, Peach, Marth, Falcon, the Spacies, and Metaknight might as well be the only characters in the game.

2.) Pichu was a clone!

So was Roy, and look at how awesome he's turned out to be! Falco and Ganondorf are also clones, and they're among the most hype characters to watch! Who's to say that they can't give Pichu new specials or buff certain moves? Look at Lucas-- he got a totally new nB Special and his PK Freeze was revamped.

3). Pichu was intended to be a joke character/Pichu never intended to be any good.

Brawl was never intended to have any depth. But here we are, hype over the PMBR's awesome work regardless
On top of that, being a joke character doesn't automatically mean that you can't have an interesting playstyle or new moves and advanced techniques. Even games like Street Fighter have that *one* character that people can humilate others with.

4). He was never intended to be in Brawl!

As mentioned earlier, depth was never intended to be in Brawl either. Nether were plenty of fun and interesting things such as character-specific Target Tests, Race to the Finish, and end-of-match bonuses. (I'm really hoping that the PMBR wizards can bring these back somehow...)

5). There's already too many Pokemon!

This is actually a pretty valid point. To be fair though, the entire Mario metaseries has just as much-- Mario, Luigi, Peach, Bowser, Yoshi, Wario, Donkey Kong, and Diddy. That's eight characters. Zelda has five characters, counting transformations-- Link, Zelda, Sheik, Ganondorf, and Toon Link. Considering that Pokemon, Mario, and Zelda are Ninty's biggest franchises, it's only understandable that they're going to feature the most characters.
I understand where the "too many pokemon" crowd is coming from, but it would be rather cruel to include EVERYONE else from Melee except for him, considering that Pichu does bring unique qualities to the table (lighter weight, increased speed, stronger moves, self-damage, etc.) that could really make him stand out as the risk/reward character that Pikachu could never get away with being.

 

[ChronoBound]

Like I said earlier, aside from Pichu being incredibly unpopular with people outside the competitive set (most unpopular character to ever become playable in Smash Bros. overall). You are likely going to end up with a lot of bitter Dr. Mario fans who think its unfair that Pichu got this massive overhaul, yet Dr. Mario, who is far more popular than Pichu and was actually planned for Brawl, gets relegated to a costume. Young Link fans will also pipe in about it (though having three Links would be absolutely ridiculous).

 

[yogurtgun1245]

Like I said earlier, aside from Pichu being incredibly unpopular with people outside the competitive set (most unpopular character to ever become playable in Smash Bros. overall). You are likely going to end up with a lot of bitter Dr. Mario fans who think its unfair that Pichu got this massive overhaul, yet Dr. Mario, who is far more popular than Pichu and was actually planned for Brawl, gets relegated to a costume. Young Link fans will also pipe in about it (though having three Links would be absolutely ridiculous).

He may be unpopular, but there are Smash fans that legitimately enjoy playing as Pichu for his differences from Pikachu. Dr. Mario has been fused into Mario in both his moveset and costume selection. Young Link is represented by traits in Toon Link. I don't know which character would cause more of a negative outcry though, a second young link, or a clone of Pikachu.

 

[ChronoBound]

[quote="yogurtgun1245, post: 15908922, member: 162626" I don't know which character would cause more of a negative outcry though, a second young link, or a clone of Pikachu.[/quote]

Young Link would lead to a more negative outcry than Pichu because we already have two Link's already in.

Basically between the remaining three of the Fallen Five, Dr. Mario is the most popular character overall (though he already has a costume that throws pills, which satisfies at least half of his fans).

Really surprised to see so much support for Pichu here.

Anyway, given a choice between Pichu and Waluigi/Shadow, I would definitely go with Pichu.

 

[MagnesD3]

Pichu is ******** and a waste of time. The amount of people that would be hype for him in a trailer are like 7 people... give pikachu his attributes (like doc and young link) and call it a wrap..

 

[shinhed-echi]

I really don't mind Pichu. It would actually feel like they're bringing back as much as they can from Melee to Brawl.

On Young Link I'm completely torn. I mained Y.Link at some point, and I just despised how Toon Link replaced him. But now if I chose to have him back... I don't know what to say. I don't want THREE Links. I would've preferred Young Link replacing Toon Link, but what's done is done. :D But since we are supposed to have an Adult Link, and a Kid Link, I would just leave it at that. No Y.Link necessary.

Pichu however is a world in itself. I have a friend who used to DESTROY ME as Pichu. Even if he has a bad mechanic... it's still a unique one.
Pichu's advantage is mainly how ridiculously short he is. He could have more electrical attacks that pull the opponent towards him to rack massive damage, but would have a harder time KOing.

Anyway, just throwing out ideas. Regarding how I feel on the scrapped Melee characters:
-Roy: Should return. (And he has)
-Mewtwo: Should return (And he has)
-Dr.Mario: Should be an Alt costume, and take the best of Mario and Dr.Mario to make up the new Mario (And that's what he is)
-Pichu: Should probably return, his mechanic should stay, and make him a damage racker
-Young Link: One kid Link is enough, so no. I take it as him being updated. (But Toon Link's moveset and movements should feel more like Young Link's, so that his changes are more visual than anything)
-Ganondorf: His Melee model should be the default one, but that's just me. I always use Melee version Ganon for P:M anyway.

 

[AnOkayDM]

What was intended and what wasn't isn't a good argument when we're talking about a hack meant to change the things that Sakurai intended Brawl to be. If you're going to use that argument you may as well go all the way and say that in the end Roy and Mewtwo weren't in Brawl so I guess we should leave them out. Whether you want to admit it or not Pichu does bring something unique to the table and he does have potential to be a good character. Add to the fact that he's a clone and has a base in Melee it means he'd be easier to implement than a new character entirely. Mewtwo took over 700 hours to made and that was based on his template from Melee. How long do you think it'd take them to make someone entirely new? Easily double that if everything is being done from scratch. Odds are most of the "new" characters they choose to add will be clones of old characters as is. They may as well add back in the final unique character from Melee. I understand why so many people have so much skepticism. But as someone who picked up Pichu midway through my career in Melee I can safely say that he has huge potential were he balanced properly and could easily become a fan favorite if he was viable.

(Plus he was teased at in the April Fools trailer and it'd be just cruel to his fans to hint at his return and then add 7 new character none of which are him)

I'm not saying he couldn't be made viable. I'm not skeptical of the PMBR's skill. I'm just skeptical that Pichu should return as a whole new character instead of getting folded into Pikachu, which is what happened to Young Link and Doctor Mario (the other two most similar clones).

My reasoning for not wanting him mostly boils down to:
(a) Another character could fit his playstyle, and better.
(b) He's not different enough for me to warrant making him playable instead of part of Pikachu.
(c) I don't want Pokémon taking up a fifth of the roster when Metroid and DK both deserve another character. Hell, F-Zero could use another character. Even Kirby deserves another character before we get our eighth Pokémon.

Maybe someday down the line, when newer characters have been added, we can come back and add clones, including Pichu. But for now, he just doesn't seem like a worthwhile time investment to me.

5). There's already too many Pokemon!

This is actually a pretty valid point. To be fair though, the entire Mario metaseries has just as much-- Mario, Luigi, Peach, Bowser, Yoshi, Wario, Donkey Kong, and Diddy. That's eight characters. Zelda has five characters, counting transformations-- Link, Zelda, Sheik, Ganondorf, and Toon Link. Considering that Pokemon, Mario, and Zelda are Ninty's biggest franchises, it's only understandable that they're going to feature the most characters.

The difference here is that Yoshi, Wario, DK, and Diddy all represent their own series. I loathe when people count DK and Diddy as Mario series characters, Nintendo included. They're not. Yoshi and Wario you can kinda count as Mario characters, since they started as such, but they both have their own subseries, and Smash represents those more than their Mario appearances.

And yeah, Zelda has five characters, but they all make sense or are easily justifiable. (Well, Sheik a little less so, but eh.) Link is the main character. Toon Link represents the younger side of Link (which is honestly far more common than the adult side, but whatever). Ganon's the antagonist, and Zelda's the love interest/sidekick/person to be rescued. Sheik...was in one game, so she's tougher to justify. But she's an important part of Zelda by now, at least in Smash, so I'm okay with her staying.

For Pokémon, we have Pikachu (the mascot), Ivysaur, Squirtle, and Charizard (the original starters), Mewtwo (kind of an antagonist, but also a fan favorite), Jigglypuff (also important? I think? Maybe? I don't know much about Pokémon), Lucario (another fan favorite)...Pichu would just be yet another Pokémon thrown on the heap. Hell, seven Pokémon is too much for me to justify, but I don't know who I'd cut.


To both of you...I guess I'm not super opposed to Pichu returning, but to me, he's simply not worth it. Not yet, anyway. Maybe once they add some actual new characters...

I don't really want to fight though. This is just my opinion, and you both have yours. I had a really long message typed out, but it doesn't matter. You can have your opinion, and I'll have mine. If Pichu returns, I hope he's what you all hope him to be.

 

[Shadow Huan]

I'd prefer a Ganondorf that fights like Ganondorf does in the Legend of Zelda games actually

 

[Trinsic]

[quote="yogurtgun1245, post: 15908922, member: 162626" I don't know which character would cause more of a negative outcry though, a second young link, or a clone of Pikachu.

Really surprised to see so much support for Pichu here.
[/quote]

Yeah, I've seen support for him over on the Reddit P:M page as well as here. I thought I'd be the only person rooting for his return, but now it seems like Pichu is more of a divisive character than one who is universally hated. I'm pretty happy to see that I'm not the only one who enjoys playing as him for fun, casual matches.

 

[trojanpooh]

(b) He's not different enough for me to warrant making him playable instead of part of Pikachu.

Like you said, we're both entitled to our own opinions and all that good stuff but this couldn't be more wrong. Saying Pikachu and Pichu can be effectively melded together is like saying you can do the same to Falco and Fox. They have the same base moves but their properties make for entirely different characters with totally unique playstyles. Whether or not you feel that warrants the PMBR's time is an entirely different story, but Their differences aren't as cut and dry simple as Mario and Dr. Mario.

I do agree to an extent that 8 Pokemon would be a lot, but with a roster of 42 (assuming Pichu, otherwise 7 and 41 for the numbers) It's not too absurd that Nintendo's biggest franchise (in number of characters) would have lots of reps. And assuming one day we get the full 46 character roster the ratio would be even smaller. Plus it'd just be a shame if Pichu was the only Melee character to be left behind completely.

In other news, I'm glad to see how many Pichu fans there are around here. Here's hoping for one last surprise reveal before 3.0

 

[ChronoBound]

So most people are in agreement about:
- Isaac
- Dixie Kong
- Lyn
- Ridley

However, this hypothetical fifth slot there does not seem to be a choice that is not divisive.

Some want Andy/Sami.
Some want an additional Sonic character (of which Knuckles would be the best choice).
Some want Pichu back.
Some want Waluigi.
Some want Black Shadow and Ganondorf getting his own moveset.

All of these choices though seem to have lots of supporters and detractors.

My personal favorite choice would be Andy/Sami (due to Famicom Wars being an important Nintendo franchise), while my least favorite would be Waluigi. Although Knuckles is third-party, I think he would be more interesting than Pichu.

Edit: Bowser Jr. doesn't seem divisive and he is an important Mario character, so maybe he would make a good choice.

 

[Sapphire Dragon]

I just want the PMBR to amaze me.

 

[MagnesD3]

So most people are in agreement about:
- Isaac
- Dixie Kong
- Lyn
- Ridley

However, this hypothetical fifth slot there does not seem to be a choice that is not divisive.

Some want Andy/Sami.
Some want an additional Sonic character (of which Knuckles would be the best choice).
Some want Pichu back.
Some want Waluigi.
Some want Black Shadow and Ganondorf getting his own moveset.

All of these choices though seem to have lots of supporters and detractors.

My personal favorite choice would be Andy/Sami (due to Famicom Wars being an important Nintendo franchise), while my least favorite would be Waluigi. Although Knuckles is third-party, I think he would be more interesting than Pichu.

Dont forget Krystal, Saki and King K. Rool.

 

[Friesnchip]

I just want the PMBR to amaze me.

Have they not done so already?

 

[ChronoBound]

Dont forget Krystal, Saki and King K. Rool.

Krystal is divisive, Saki is barely requested, and K. Rool will probably end up in Smash 4 (also there seems to be a preference for Dixie to be Project M's DK newcomer).

 

[Sapphire Dragon]

They really already have- at this point anything else they could add on to P:M would be amazing. So basically, I'm just saying any new addition would be amazing. P:M has done such a good job so far that I doubt anything would really disappoint me at this point (other than quitting!)

 

[MagnesD3]

Krystal is divisive, Saki is barely requested, and K. Rool will probably end up in Smash 4 (also there seems to be a preference for Dixie to be Project M's DK newcomer).

which is why they should be in imo since they probably wont be in ssb4. (K. Rool is less likely to get in than dixie for ssb4 imo.)

 

[ChronoBound]

which is why they should be in imo since they probably wont be in ssb4. (K. Rool is less likely to get in than dixie for ssb4 imo.)

The consensus is that K. Rool is more likely.

As for Star Fox, we already have more than enough characters as it is for that series, especially for a franchise that is famous for only a single game (64).

 

[SunJester]

You know, I don't think the PMBR is scared of a little work.

They're not going to add a character if its easy, they're going to add it if they're popular, or a unique character. I mean look at Mewtwo, the only "cloned" move he has from Lucario is the shadow-ball attack.


Also I'm about 95% sure Dixie is making it into Smash 4.

 

[ChronoBound]

Really, that is the only thing going against Dixie is that she may end up playable in Smash 4. Otherwise, she is one of the best choices for a possible newcomer.

Secondly, she was supposed to be in Brawl anyway, so I don't think it would be too weird if both Project M and Smash 4 had Dixie Kong playable, since Project M is basically a realization of what Brawl should have been (a successor to Melee).

 

[MagnesD3]

The consensus is that K. Rool is more likely.

As for Star Fox, we already have more than enough characters as it is for that series, especially for a franchise that is famous for only a single game (64).

Im basing Dixie's likelyhood on the fact she was going to be in brawl, also dixie kong will be in the new donkey kong game where the king is nowhere to be found. The king is more popular but I think dixie is more likely (unfortunately).

 

[AnOkayDM]

Like you said, we're both entitled to our own opinions and all that good stuff but this couldn't be more wrong. Saying Pikachu and Pichu can be effectively melded together is like saying you can do the same to Falco and Fox. They have the same base moves but their properties make for entirely different characters with totally unique playstyles. Whether or not you feel that warrants the PMBR's time is an entirely different story, but Their differences aren't as cut and dry simple as Mario and Dr. Mario.

All right, I'll believe you. Guess I've never really seen much evidence that Pichu is a worthwhile character. And I still think his attributes could be better served on another character, especially as I think they might change up his moves were they to revamp him.

I do agree to an extent that 8 Pokemon would be a lot, but with a roster of 42 (assuming Pichu, otherwise 7 and 41 for the numbers) It's not too absurd that Nintendo's biggest franchise (in number of characters) would have lots of reps. And assuming one day we get the full 46 character roster the ratio would be even smaller. Plus it'd just be a shame if Pichu was the only Melee character to be left behind completely.

In other news, I'm glad to see how many Pichu fans there are around here. Here's hoping for one last surprise reveal before 3.0

Still, with seven and forty-one, that's just over a sixth of the entire roster. With eight and forty-two, it's just under a fifth. With eight and forty-six, it's still more than a sixth...my point is, Brawl represents eighteen series, and even if we cut out the ones with only one rep (counting Metroid as two), it represents nine. Which makes one series having that big a stake in the game seem a little off to me. I guess you could say that about Mario or Zelda too, but eight characters for one series...even if the series has so many to choose from, if we had to have eight, couldn't we choose a better Pokémon to fill that slot?

So most people are in agreement about:
- Isaac
- Dixie Kong
- Lyn
- Ridley

However, this hypothetical fifth slot there does not seem to be a choice that is not divisive.

Some want Andy/Sami.
Some want an additional Sonic character (of which Knuckles would be the best choice).
Some want Pichu back.
Some want Waluigi.
Some want Black Shadow and Ganondorf getting his own moveset.

All of these choices though seem to have lots of supporters and detractors.

My personal favorite choice would be Andy/Sami (due to Famicom Wars being an important Nintendo franchise), while my least favorite would be Waluigi. Although Knuckles is third-party, I think he would be more interesting than Pichu.

Edit: Bowser Jr. doesn't seem divisive and he is an important Mario character, so maybe he would make a good choice.

I agree with Isaac, Dixie, and Ridley.
I think we could pick a better FE character than yet another person who uses a sword.
I say no to Andy/Sami.
Knuckles would be all right, but I don't feel we need another Sonic character.
You all know my stance on Pichu.
No Waluigi please.
I do want Ganon to have a moveset more representative of his actual character.
If we have to pick another Mario character, I'd rather Bowser Jr. than Toad.

But honestly, I think it's about time Paper Mario got into Smash Bros.

 

[ChronoBound]

Im baseing Dixie's likelyhood on the fact she was going to be in brawl, also dixie kong will be in the new donkey kong game where the king is nowhere to be found. The king is more popular but I think dixie is more likely (unfortunately).

I don't think Tropical Freeze will have an impact on the roster considering the roster was already decided before that game was unveiled.

If Dixie Kong is playable in Smash 4, it won't be because of Tropical Freeze.

 

[NisforSmash]

Like I said earlier, aside from Pichu being incredibly unpopular with people outside the competitive set (most unpopular character to ever become playable in Smash Bros. overall). You are likely going to end up with a lot of bitter Dr. Mario fans who think its unfair that Pichu got this massive overhaul, yet Dr. Mario, who is far more popular than Pichu and was actually planned for Brawl, gets relegated to a costume. Young Link fans will also pipe in about it (though having three Links would be absolutely ridiculous).

This.

For all those who think pichu is worth another slot consider the following:
Pichu is a baby form of Pikachu. This means however "good" pichu will be, Pikachu must be better. why? Because Pikachu is the evolved/base form. True some pokemon have uses in their pre-evolved forms but in terms of a fight between a baby pokemon and it's evolution, the evolution always wins. the original evolution ladder for Pikachu started with just him then raichu. pichu was added later as a younger cuter form. It wouldn't make sense for pmbr to add baby Mario now would it?
It is true that young link was in melee, but sakurai made ammendments by replacing him with toon link. why? partially the same reason. however good young link is, adult link has to be better because it's the same character. Toon link on the other hand is from a different game/timeline so he was the perfect replacement.
Yes, roy was a clone but he was also an actual character in his series. Roy is a different entity than marth so he deserves a reworking.
Doc didn't necessarily deserve a spot, costume engine all the way.

I hear what you all are saying, I don't hate pichu but he just doesn't deserve dat precious precious slot.

 

[trojanpooh]

This.

For all those who think pichu is worth another slot consider the following:
Pichu is a baby form of Pikachu. This means however "good" pichu will be, Pikachu must be better. why? Because Pikachu is the evolved/base form. True some pokemon have uses in their pre-evolved forms but in terms of a fight between a baby pokemon and it's evolution, the evolution always wins. the original evolution ladder for Pikachu started with just him then raichu. pichu was added later as a younger cuter form. It wouldn't make sense for pmbr to add baby Mario now would it?
It is true that young link was in melee, but sakurai made ammendments by replacing him with toon link. why? partially the same reason. however good young link is, adult link has to be better because it's the same character. Toon link on the other hand is from a different game/timeline so he was the perfect replacement.
Yes, roy was a clone but he was also an actual character in his series. Roy is a different entity than marth so he deserves a reworking.
Doc didn't necessarily deserve a spot, costume engine all the way.

I hear what you all are saying, I don't hate pichu but he just doesn't deserve dat precious precious slot.

I suppose Pikachu is also redundant because Mewtwo has higher base stats and Zero Suit Samus is pointless because Samus with a power suit will always beat Samus without one, right?

Logic doesn't mesh with fighting crossover games, so it doesn't really make sense to try using it as an argument. Besides, the part that people want (as far as I know) isn't Pichu himself, but rather his moveset and playstyle. Any issue you have with canon strength can be done away with by replacing him with Plusle, Minun, or any other character with similar body type and move potential. Besides, Pichu isn't the same entity as Pikachu, they're two separate Pokemon of the same species. It's perfectly plausible that a well trained Pichu could win against a random Pikachu, especially since this Pichu overexerts himself. If you need a canon reason just say he has the Evolite equipped. Frankly, Pichu and Pikachu are far more different than Link and Toon Link because they're just random animals where both Links are bound by destiny and the Triforce and all that mumbo jumbo.

Whether you personally enjoy playing as Pichu or not, currently there is nothing in PM that takes his place effectively and until there is, there will continue to be reason to go back to Melee, and for that reason among others he deserves a spot in the PM roster far more than any random fantasy roster we can think of. Not to mention it's not like it's Pichu vs. 5 other characters. It's Pichu + up to 4 other characters vs up to 5 other characters.

 

[HyperrCrow]

Wasn't there talk at one point in time that the PMBR could get in contact with the Brawl announcer to record more voices and/or have someone imitate his voice? I read that in some topic either here or on SmashMods that someone had a connection to him.

I do recall that talk, but I'm pretty sure it was about the pre-made announcer calls that he did way back in 08 for a few characters.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

And yet Project M expresses interest in adding new characters. The 7 slots they are using were to be filled to begin with when the game was in development. Due to time constraints, they released the game without said characters. You are saying that new content is a bad thing? Even if it were meant to be there from the start? They are restricted to those slots and may not even fill them all. Your argument is completely pointless. If they want to add characters that is their choice. We, as fans, are allowed to express interest in characters we want to see. Not everyone will be getting their wish. You can continue to express disinterest in an additional cast, but your argument will fall on deaf ears.

The problem with that is that people are talking about wanting to add megaman, and shadow, and geno, and other dumb ****. I just don't want **** to get carried away. Simple is better.

 

[turtletank]

I don't understand it either.

A whole world of Nintendo characters to pick from and people want Pichu. I mean sure he has a few unique traits, but is it harmful to leave them behind for a completely new character? There's no limit to a new character (within reason) other than the PMBR's creativity, and requesting such a redundant character is just capping that potential. He basically has nothing going for him other than representation in Melee, I know many are requesting him for that reason alone.
Really though; I don't doubt the PMBR could make Pichu an interesting character, but I would question why when there are better choices for franchises in need of more reps.

I do think that Pichu should get some representation in the game though, like the other Melee veterans. Perhaps carry over some traits to Pikachu?

 

[trojanpooh]

I do think that Pichu should get some representation in the game though, like the other Melee veterans. Perhaps carry over some traits to Pikachu?

The issue is they play so differently that carrying over traits would cause Pikachu to be an incohesive character, something that was Roy's biggest shortcoming in Melee. Both Pikachu and Pichu work (though Pichu doesn't work to his max potential in Melee because trash tier) because of the sum of their parts, not because of any single handful of moves. Combining the two would create a mess of a character that's worse than both. Pikachu is a fun and unique character that has been around since day one of Smash Bros. Doesn't he deserve a clone?

 

[turtletank]

The issue is they play so differently that carrying over traits would cause Pikachu to be an incohesive character, something that was Roy's biggest shortcoming in Melee. Both Pikachu and Pichu work (though Pichu doesn't work to his max potential in Melee because trash tier) because of the sum of their parts, not because of any single handful of moves. Combining the two would create a mess of a character that's worse than both. Pikachu is a fun and unique character that has been around since day one of Smash Bros. Doesn't he deserve a clone?

If that's the case, then no. I think I'd prefer a completely new character that the majority can agree on. Besides, the pokemon franchise already has plenty of rep, and if it gained another then there's literally hundreds of unique fighters to choose from.

Think about it guys, alakadoof in smash bros

 

[NisforSmash]

I suppose Pikachu is also redundant because Mewtwo has higher base stats and Zero Suit Samus is pointless because Samus with a power suit will always beat Samus without one, right?

Logic doesn't mesh with fighting crossover games, so it doesn't really make sense to try using it as an argument. Besides, the part that people want (as far as I know) isn't Pichu himself, but rather his moveset and playstyle. Any issue you have with canon strength can be done away with by replacing him with Plusle, Minun, or any other character with similar body type and move potential. Besides, Pichu isn't the same entity as Pikachu, they're two separate Pokemon of the same species. It's perfectly plausible that a well trained Pichu could win against a random Pikachu, especially since this Pichu overexerts himself. If you need a canon reason just say he has the Evolite equipped. Frankly, Pichu and Pikachu are far more different than Link and Toon Link because they're just random animals where both Links are bound by destiny and the Triforce and all that mumbo jumbo.

Whether you personally enjoy playing as Pichu or not, currently there is nothing in PM that takes his place effectively and until there is, there will continue to be reason to go back to Melee, and for that reason among others he deserves a spot in the PM roster far more than any random fantasy roster we can think of. Not to mention it's not like it's Pichu vs. 5 other characters. It's Pichu + up to 4 other characters vs up to 5 other characters.

No. It's possible to beat mewtwo with Pikachu. They're different. at some point when you train a pichu it will inevitably evolve into Pikachu.
TBH yes theoretically samus should always be able to beat zero suit but she was in brawl for whatever reason and her playstyle is much different than regular samus so pulling her out doesn't seem right because she's already in. before brawl came out I personally wanted ridley in but instead we got zss.

If you want his moveset and playstyle there is character called Pikachu you should try, I think you'll like him. the pokemon series already has a representative for electric type and plusle/minun would yes be more viable in my opinion but they're not going to make it because Pikachu is already in and they wouldn't represent much that is already being represented. pichu and Pikachu are of the same species but it's the same thing as an African 5 year old fighting a 20 year old german. the german will win.

i'd say pichu and Pikachu are much more similar than link and toon link. the only thing similar about link and toon link is that they are bound by destiny and all that mumbo jumbo. their stories, locations, experiences and abilities are different. while pichu and Pikachu are both wild animals. one is an earlier form of the other meaning they are bound and essentially one in the same.

"Because people will go back to melee" is a bad reason to add a character. people will go back to melee for any number of reasons but that doesn't mean the pmbr should add every last thing. if they want to play pichu let them but should they choose to play M Pikachu will be waiting.

I'd rather have 5 new playstyles as opposed to 4 and extra Pikachu.

BTW if you go back to melee to play pichu and only pichu you are either sakurai himself or mentally deficient. my prayers are with you.

 

[OrangeSodaGuy]

The thing with Doctor Mario, however, is that he's canonically the exact same character, who is simply wearing a different outfit. With the advances in the costume engine, they've even got Doc throwing pills just like he used to, and Mario has his same taunt.I'm not sure a Doc overhaul would really be necessary. In spite of being more popular than Pichu, both Doc and vanilla Mario have already been fusion-ha'd into a single character that is arguably far better than both of them.

I would suggest Pichu as a costume otherwise, but I'm not sure that would work due to differences in their size and proportions. They could build on and evolve the properties that Pichu had that made him so wildly different from Pikachu in terms of playstyle. (TrojanPooh makes a good point about Falco and Fox.)

Spoiler

Not to mention that the alternate costume engine video teased us with a possible Party Hat Pikachu alt (from SSB64). Can characters have more than one alternate costume?

Ridley, Goroh, Isaac, Dixie, and Lyn are still great choices, and there will still be plenty of room for other interesting characters even if Pichu makes the cut. (Speaking of Ganon, I think they should at least change his Up tilt to be an attack with his sword. I can see it resembling Ike's Fsmash, and it could have the same ludicrously, ridiculously long charge time (and kill power) that Ganondorf's original Up Tilt had. )

As far as the Mario characters bit-- Diddy is admittedly a stretch, but I think it's fair to count DK as a Mario series character-- Mario himself debuted in the original Donkey Kong, and they've even co-starred together in more recent titles... The 1994 Donkey Kong game for the Game Boy was fantastic, and Mario vs Donkey Kong was also pretty good.

I don't mean to beat a dead horse, and please don't take any of this the wrong way Hero_42 or Chronobound, by the way. I mean disrespect, and I've found Chronobound's Gamefaqs incredibly insightful in particular-- you could say I'm a fan
I'm not here to fight either, so I apologize if I sound overly argumentative or confrontational in any way. We're all just P:M fans who are looking forward to a great game in the end.

On a less divisive note, what if Psycho Mantis were playable? (not saying he's likely to happen)
How broken would that be if players had to all switch their controllers around just to fight him? Nobody would ever want to play teams against a Psycho mantis main.... :kappa:

 

[OrangeSodaGuy]

* I mean NO disrespect.

Aaaarrrggggh, I wish I could edit posts. And please forgive the double post!

 

[AnOkayDM]

As far as the Mario characters bit-- Diddy is admittedly a stretch, but I think it's fair to count DK as a Mario series character-- Mario himself debuted in the original Donkey Kong, and they've even co-starred together in more recent titles... The 1994 Donkey Kong game for the Game Boy was fantastic, and Mario vs Donkey Kong was also pretty good.

Technically he didn't. He didn't have a name in that and also was dressed differently. I mean yeah, it's the inspiration, but still. DK has moved on to represent his own series, and besides, no member of the DK crew has been included in a mainline Mario game...
I get why they do it, but I still hate it.

* I mean NO disrespect.

Aaaarrrggggh, I wish I could edit posts. And please forgive the double post!

Oh, it's not just me then.
When you hit the Edit button, click on "More Options." It'll take you to a new editing screen where everything actually shows up.

 

[QQQQQQQ7777777]

Oh, it's not just me then.
When you hit the Edit button, click on "More Options." It'll take you to a new editing screen where everything actually shows up.

oh, I thought I was the only one with that problem

 

[NisforSmash]

I would suggest Pichu as a costume otherwise, but I'm not sure that would work due to differences in their size and proportions. They could build on and evolve the properties that Pichu had that made him so wildly different from Pikachu in terms of playstyle. (TrojanPooh makes a good point about Falco and Fox.)

I like the idea of pichu as an alternate costume but idk if they can edit proportions and size to that extreme.

pichu is different than Pikachu not on the level that fox and falco are but still it isn't not noticeable.

This is honestly a tough call in my opinion because pichu is on that fine line of slightly different but still the same. it could go either way and the community will be happy but personally i'd rather see him not be included.

 

[trojanpooh]

No. It's possible to beat mewtwo with Pikachu. They're different. at some point when you train a pichu it will inevitably evolve into Pikachu.
TBH yes theoretically samus should always be able to beat zero suit but she was in brawl for whatever reason and her playstyle is much different than regular samus so pulling her out doesn't seem right because she's already in. before brawl came out I personally wanted ridley in but instead we got zss.

You don't need to evolve Pichu. Your argument against Pichu is just as flimsy as mine against Pikachu.

If you want his moveset and playstyle there is character called Pikachu you should try, I think you'll like him. the pokemon series already has a representative for electric type and plusle/minun would yes be more viable in my opinion but they're not going to make it because Pikachu is already in and they wouldn't represent much that is already being represented. pichu and Pikachu are of the same species but it's the same thing as an African 5 year old fighting a 20 year old german. the german will win.

I've tried Pikachu, know what? I don't like how he plays. Imagine if Falco was cut, would you tell a fan to just play as Fox? No, because they're totally different characters and don't play the same despite sharing moves. And again, this is a crossover game, the main series canons don't mean anything.

i'd say pichu and Pikachu are much more similar than link and toon link. the only thing similar about link and toon link is that they are bound by destiny and all that mumbo jumbo. their stories, locations, experiences and abilities are different. while pichu and Pikachu are both wild animals. one is an earlier form of the other meaning they are bound and essentially one in the same.

That's like saying a random baby will one day become essentially Abraham Lincoln. Just because they're the same species doesn't mean they're the same. Link and Toon Link are the same chosen hero but at different points in history. The may be different people but they have the same destiny. That's more similar than a random Pikachu and a random Pichu.

"Because people will go back to melee" is a bad reason to add a character. people will go back to melee for any number of reasons but that doesn't mean the pmbr should add every last thing. if they want to play pichu let them but should they choose to play M Pikachu will be waiting.

How many times do I need to say Pikachu and Pichu play differently before people actually listen? For a community that's supposedly a bit more competitive than the average Smash fanbase you still seem to be having a hard time with the concept of clones being unique. I wouldn't suggest Pikachu to a Pichu fan just like I wouldn't suggest Jigglypuff to a Kirby fan. They're different characters.

I'd rather have 5 new playstyles as opposed to 4 and extra Pikachu.

If you honestly think the remaining 5 hypothetical slots are going to be exclusively all new characters I feel bad for you. Making Mewtwo, an existing but unique character, took them over 700 hours. To make an all new character from scratch will take well over double that time. They said Roy took half of Mewtwo's dev time. I'm sure most "new" characters will be clones of the Brawl roster. Characters like Bowser Jr. not like Isaac. In that regard Pichu fits right in. Pikachu doesn't have a clone in Brawl and has an interesting moveset that can be toyed with to create something unique.

And I'm choosing to ignore that unnecessary personal attack because it was pointless and served no purpose but to pick a needless fight.

 

[OrangeSodaGuy]

Oh, it's not just me then.
When you hit the Edit button, click on "More Options." It'll take you to a new editing screen where everything actually shows up.

 

[shinhed-echi]

Reason why I don't support Saki, is because I'm pretty confident he'll be a playable character in SSB4. It's a feeling, but he has a lot going for him, IMO.
And I'm sure Sakuruai would give him a sweeeeeet moveset.

Otherwise, I'd just support every single character on my sig, lol (which btw sometimes it randomly shows up, other times it doesn't). The ones I support for Other M are the ones I'm almost entirely sure won't be in SSB4. But at the same time, they must be popular with the community.

 

[210stuna]

People saying Young Link should return seem to lack the knowledge of what the PMBR is doing with Dr. Mario?
Pichu isn't exactly the same case, and I actually like his playstyle compared to Pika in Melee (Regarding the self-inflicting moves he has)

Although I don't like the thought of another Zelda/Pokeman taking up the CSS.
I'm sure any character the PMBR decides to add next will surprise us all and will be taken care of with a balanced mindset to be executed carefully.