Choosing Your Starter: IKE take TWO

[TheReflexWonder]

Many of Ivysaur's mechanics just hard counter Donkey Kong's. It's hard to see until you get F-Smash KO'd after getting caught by Bullet Seed while trying to land after getting caught by Bullet Seed after trying to land after getting caught by Bullet Seed, or getting B-Air'd until you realize you have to recover high and get Bullet Seeded/U-Air'd or recover low and get D-Air'd until you die.

 

[Neon!]

Many of Ivysaur's mechanics just hard counter Donkey Kong's. It's hard to see until you get F-Smash KO'd after getting caught by Bullet Seed while trying to land after getting caught by Bullet Seed after trying to land after getting caught by Bullet Seed, or getting B-Air'd until you realize you have to recover high and get Bullet Seeded/U-Air'd or recover low and get D-Air'd until you die.

I agree that many of those traps can work (except dair, I dont see that happening too often) because of DK's large frame and lack downward angled aerials. Assuming DK doesnt waste his second jump trying to escape bullet seed though he can DJ as soon as BS stops, di toward and over the edge and recover with up-b. DK's do this all the time when they're caught in semi-frame traps like GW's nair or MK's tornado, it's a very solid retreating option.

Ivy's bair is good for spacing and offstage but it wont be gimping us. Our bair can still compete with it offstage, we can stall with side-b and our up-b is fast horizontally, has decent priority and can also be stalled. Bair's damage output is also negligible, especially for DK. Ivy's ground game in general isnt bad but our range and speed on our tilts keep him out well. Our dtilt trips 40% of the time leading into down-b or if we're close enough-fully charged punch. Thats 36% (more than a third of Ivy's stock) off of one read at low percents, similar to your bullet seed. Our dtilt of course is MUCH safer than BS and has more range. Even when dtilt doesnt trip it often leads into another dtilt or we can ground pound and eat 2/3 of your shield.

Ivy's biggest weakness of course is it's horrendous recovery, I already went over this last post so iI'll try not to exhaust the subject. Ivy has the 4th worst air speed, its fair and bair are decent offstage defensively but Ivy cant risk trading with DK's bair.

To sum things up, Ivy is still a good option against DK in general but he does not counter DK in any imaginable way. By claiming that Ivy beats DK +2 would be putting Ivy in the company of far superior characters like falco and diddy kong. Ivy's damage output off of single reads, camping game and control of space against DK do not even slightly resemble that of falco and diddy. The same argument applys to characters like Snake and TL who currently beat us +1. Both snake and TL are better than Ivy at controlling space, racking up damage reliably and are MUCH better at recovering. I still maintain that IVY vs DK is even.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I agree that many of those traps can work (except dair, I dont see that happening too often) because of DK's large frame and lack downward angled aerials. Assuming DK doesnt waste his second jump trying to escape bullet seed though he can DJ as soon as BS stops, di toward and over the edge and recover with up-b. DK's do this all the time when they're caught in semi-frame traps like GW's nair or MK's tornado, it's a very solid retreating option.

Ivy's bair is good for spacing and offstage but it wont be gimping us. Our bair can still compete with it offstage, we can stall with side-b and our up-b is fast horizontally, has decent priority and can also be stalled. Bair's damage output is also negligible, especially for DK. Ivy's ground game in general isnt bad but our range and speed on our tilts keep him out well. Our dtilt trips 40% of the time leading into down-b or if we're close enough-fully charged punch. Thats 36% (more than a third of Ivy's stock) off of one read at low percents, similar to your bullet seed. Our dtilt of course is MUCH safer than BS and has more range. Even when dtilt doesnt trip it often leads into another dtilt or we can ground pound and eat 2/3 of your shield.

Ivy's biggest weakness of course is horrendous recovery, I already went over this last post so iI'll try not to exhaust the subject. Ivy has the 4th worst air speed, its fair and bair are decent offstage defensively but Ivy cant risk trading with DK's bair.

To sum things up, Ivy is still a good option against DK in general but he does not counter DK in any imaginable way. By claiming that Ivy beats DK +2 would be putting Ivy in the company of far superior characters like falco and diddy kong. Ivy's damage output off of single reads, camping game and control of space against DK do not even slightly resemble that of falco and diddy. The same argument applys to characters like Snake and TL who currently beat us +1. Both snake and TL are better than Ivy at controlling space, racking up damage reliably and are MUCH better at recovering. I still maintain that IVY vs DK is even.

Are we doing this?

D-Air is obnoxiously huge, and if you're recovering from below, you're gonna get hit by the sourspot whether you like it or not.

If you try to go to the ledge to avoid landing traps, you put yourself in a risky situation. If you're close enough to grab the ledge as you go past it, you either get hit by Dash Attack or F-Smash. Dash Attack at low percents, since it puts DK right above Ivysaur in the same uncomfortable position as when he left Bullet Seed, and F-Smash at higher percents for KO/edgeguarding purposes. If you're slightly further out, aerial Razor Leaf -> D-Tilt, F-Tilt, and B-Air can poke in a similar manner, though they're not as dangerous. Go any further than that, and you're just begging for a F-Air or D-Air.

In an edgeguarding position, our B-Air only serves as a means to reset the situation. It pops you up where you were, which means we're in the exact same situation, except you've taken a little extra damage. Our B-Air starts up high and ends down low, so if we maintain at least decent spacing, your B-Air is not competing with it while you're trying to recover. Stalling of any sort won't do you much good, as Ivysaur edgeguards just fine with her various moves at any distance from the ledge.

If we shield a tilt, you get Bullet Seeded, and Ivysaur doesn't have to roll the dice on that. You can't possibly think that's safe. DK's F-Tilt at absolutely max range, if it is not powershielded, is safe, which is why switching between that and Down-B is how DK is supposed to camp in this matchup; D-Tilt is negligible.

Razor Leaf backward allows us to use B-Air to protect ourselves while recovering; DK's B-Air is a non-issue. We have to worry about F-Air/D-Air and the occasional gutsy N-Air. You clearly have a skewed idea of how this matchup works offstage.

A combination of reliable KO options, massive damage output, legitimate approach options on reactions, and a superior offstage game sounds like there's reason to DK to fear it like he would fear Diddy. I would be willing to entertain +1 Ivysaur (though I am still pretty adamant it's easily +2), but if you legitimately think it's even, you are just impossible to get through to.

 

[Player-1]

DK beats Ivysaur +2 and Reflex knows it. He lost a MM to Sold2.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

DK beats Ivysaur +2 and Reflex knows it. He lost a MM to Sold2.

If I were a PT boards mod, I would strongly consider infracting you for slander. I will take the money of every Donkey Kong who would dare challenge my sweeping statements.

 

[Micaelis]

I read your posts Neon!... they're all well thought out and pretty much all your points are valid to a degree. But you're still underestimating the options Ivysaur has vs DK in general.

I use to play A LOT of DK vs Ivysaur because he was my old main and Reflex lives in my region. I have first hand experience at what Ivysaur can do in the MU and it's not pretty. I know I'm not GOOD but I'm experienced and my experience comes from fighting the potentially BEST Ivysaur you can find. With that being said...

Ivysaur doesn't have the best of defensive capabilites but he doesn't HAVE to with his options since DK's are so bad at times. Using Ivysaur's zoning capabilities, you can camp DK and force him to approach while weakening his shield. DK excels in the medium range zone and does do slightly better than Ivy here but not by a large amount. The main problem being DK's weak shield and bullet seed. If Ivy powershields any of DKs tilts, he gets a free bullet seed which means about 40%. This leads to many different frame traps or just disadvantageous positions for DK in general followed by a neutral reset where DK has to get back into his sweet zone. Also, because of the hitbox on bullet seed's inititally, it easily shield pokes DK's weak shield if you fail to angle it down. Add in options like retreating Bairs and pivot grabs and DK will have a problem, period. If you want to get close to grab, you're relinquishing one of the few advantages you DO have (range) in favor of a potential grab which opens you up to GETTING grabbed yourself.

Also, I want to talk about Ivy's ledge options vs DK... Ivy's Bair is amazing but in combination with his decent invincibility on his tether shenanigans means that Ivy can reset DK's position off stage with his Bair, regrab the ledge, and use the invincibility frames to do things like mini-spike with Nair which DK CAN NOT recover from. Obviously recovering high becomes a mix-up and leaves us to be hit by more Bairs or a Uair which kills at decent percents.

Reflex pointed out a lot of other good points, especially edge guarding points. I also want to bring up that Ivysaur is short so you can't really use DK's Bair as a viable option most of the time, especially when he's running away the entire time.

The thing is... due to Ivysaur's lackluster recovery and his not SUPER awesome camp game... this MU isn't super bad since some of DK's high risk situations give him high rewards (such as grabbing near the ledge at high percents) and DK CAN kill Ivy pretty well. It's just a huge problem getting Ivysaur off the ground and into a bad position because even near the edge if he calls it right and gets you off the edge instead... sigh.

I think at a perfect high level play you could argue the match up is +1 Ivysaur easily. But I hardly think you could manage it being even. That's just my opinion on it.

 

[Player-1]

$50 MM solo Ivysaur Vs my DK, Reflex.












Diddy Kong, that is.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

$50 MM solo Ivysaur Vs my DK, Reflex.












Diddy Kong, that is.

If I can turn off fatigue, I just might. That matchup is hard, but, I'm a genius, so, I could probably make it work.

 

[Player-1]

okay, we'll get a hacked wii with fatigue off.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

We're derailing the thread. Come to AUSOM and we'll livestream that mess (though it probably won't be for more than $20, because I don't like the idea of even possibly losing more money than that on what is a bad bet to begin with).

 

[Player-1]

i'll be winning ausom, hence i'll be there.

 

[Bomber7]

Stop derailing my thread. This is just a simple discussion thread. Not a full blown MU discussion. If you want to come here and argue who beats who, take it to our MU thread, that is what they are there for. If it doesn't cool off immediately, I'm going to start calling in admins to settle this. I will close the thread or start having people infracted. Any other problems you have, take it to a personal message, don't do your whining and trash talking here. I'm not going to tolerate it. Understood?

 

[Dre89]

Someone mentioned mashing to escape cargo, but I think the quickest way to escape apparently is to simply hold up on the control stick. It reads it as a command per frame or something like that.

 

[Myollnir]

Can't we just SH BReverse OoS a shielded Ftilt?

For those who don't know (i.e DK players ), SH BS has more range than a Grounded BS. And if you SH Breverse it, it has even more range. Don't hesitate to try that, it's very surprising.

And it's very realistic to think that the DK will DI towards Ivysaur (because he used an Ftilt), which means you'll go right in the middle of BS (~50-60%).

But imo, for this thing to work, we have to react before DK's arm is put to its neutral position.

 

[Dre89]

I don't understand how sh bs has more range than grounded bs because there's no pop up hitbox when Ivy is in the air.

 

[Myollnir]

I don't know. I really don't know. Just try.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I don't understand how sh bs has more range than grounded bs because there's no pop up hitbox when Ivy is in the air.

When you jump out of shield, you can influence the direction of your jump before doing a move. Bullet Seed comes out on Frame 4, so you have a little time to move toward the opponent. Also, the pop-up hitbox on aerial Bullet Seed is the same as when it's grounded, but it doesn't hit opponents who are in the air.

Also, when Ivysaur does a RAR, she seems to move forward before jumping, so, there's that.

Stop derailing my thread. This is just a simple discussion thread. Not a full blown MU discussion. If you want to come here and argue who beats who, take it to our MU thread, that is what they are there for. If it doesn't cool off immediately, I'm going to start calling in admins to settle this. I will close the thread or start having people infracted. Any other problems you have, take it to a personal message, don't do your whining and trash talking here. I'm not going to tolerate it. Understood?

Player-1 was being an idiot. I mentioned that we were derailing the thread in a way that means, "let's stop doing that." No need to get all up in arms about it.

That said, I totally thought this was a matchup thread. There's nothing to discuss at all, since what this thread is asking for is basically just an incredibly lazy version of matchup discussion with very little depth or usefulness, and it's not like it isn't fairly obvious what Pokèmon you should use. Unsubscribing.

 

[Neon!]

So much activity at 3AM! I dont have time to read or respond to any of this til later cause of school.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

So much activity at 3AM! I dont have time to read or respond to any of this til later cause of school.

Don't worry about it. They want people to chime in, rather than talk in-depth about the merits of the matchup itself--

Stop derailing my thread. This is just a simple discussion thread. Not a full blown MU discussion. If you want to come here and argue who beats who, take it to our MU thread, that is what they are there for. If it doesn't cool off immediately, I'm going to start calling in admins to settle this. I will close the thread or start having people infracted. Any other problems you have, take it to a personal message, don't do your whining and trash talking here. I'm not going to tolerate it. Understood?

If you want to continue talking about it, feel free to PM me.

 

[Bomber7]

Can't we just SH BReverse OoS a shielded Ftilt?

For those who don't know (i.e DK players ), SH BS has more range than a Grounded BS. And if you SH Breverse it, it has even more range. Don't hesitate to try that, it's very surprising.

And it's very realistic to think that the DK will DI towards Ivysaur (because he used an Ftilt), which means you'll go right in the middle of BS (~50-60%).

But imo, for this thing to work, we have to react before DK's arm is put to its neutral position.

As useful as BS is, most people I play have smash DI down so when I use BS, they just DI out of it once they get hit by that initial bump that knocks them up into my seeds. Who's to say DK can't do the same? Will he fall for it most if not all the time because of his weight and size?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

He's fat, and turning yourself around when you use Bullet Seed makes it so that the angle they're sent is changed.

 

[Bomber7]

He's fat, and turning yourself around when you use Bullet Seed makes it so that the angle they're sent is changed.

Ahhh, ok. I'll keep that in mind for future fights.

 

[Neon!]

I'm having a hard time visualizing ivy's bullet seed punishing a well spaced dtilt or ftilt on our part, I'll have to test it out soon. I know it couldnt punish our down-b or a well spaced fully charged punch or 9wind (cause of the increased shield stun) Ivy's camping game is very linear compared to most characters, razer leaf isnt hard to PS, we also have the option of beating it with bair. That doesnt mean his RL is useless of course its just not as effective as most characters since it lacks in range, has a medium-slow rate of fire and has limited range.

Ivy’s dair range is huge but DK’s stalling ability with up-b stops him from getting spiked too often. Ivy really has to commit when he whips out dair because of its large amount of ending lag. DK doesn’t have to always aim for the ledge with his recovery since he can auto cancel up-b onto the stage.
Avoiding landing traps by drifting towards the ledge is a solid option like I was mentioning earlier. Here’s an example: http://youtu.be/z_zO2H4Uw0s?t=27s I chose to bair because I thought he was going to dash straight at me, I could have also airdodged and been just as safe.

Are we doing this?

I’m not trying to attack you reflex :/ Our discussion from late last year never really came to a conclusion so I wanted to continue. I respect your opinion on this matchup but I believe +2 is much too extreme of a rating. Most of the top DK players have quit playing or caring about DK’s matchups or have a very negative opinion of DK so I’m left defending most of DK’s matchups by myself.

If there are any PT's going to Whobo 4 I'd love to money match any of you. I really dont travel much.

 

[The Nameless Wanderer]

I would be glad to do a few friendlies at WHOBO4.

 

[Bomber7]

I'll be updating this thread sometime this week. In all probability on Wednesday. I've been busy this past week with school. Anything else that you guys want to add, speak up now. Thanks for posting!

 

[Bomber7]

Falco take Two

Due to school coming to a close, my updates are going to be slow. Thank you for your patience and participation thus far. I will update the chart when I get home from school either today, some time tomorrow, or during the weekend (most likely weekend).

Here's what we had last time when we talked about Falco.


Starter(s): Squirtle Ivysaur Charizard

Summary:
Squirtle- As it has come to it is quite obvious that Squirtle is the absolute best to start against Falco. With squirtle's size, he can easily crawl under Falco's most anticipated laser spam. A really powerful way to rack up damage on Falco is getting an up tilt lock on him. If carried out correctly, you can rack some serious damage on him and there won't be anyway for him to DI out of it. Another up about Squirtle is that since Falco doesn't have good recovery abilities, it will be easy to ledge hog him, all it would take is a well times ledge hug or a good water gun blast to knock him away from the ledge. Squirtle is perfect for starting because he is faster than falco so you won't have any trouble racking damage and you can avoid damage easily as well. However since squirtle lacks killing power, it would be best to make a switch to Ivy for the kill. However if you decide to switch to Charizard right away after that kill so that way if Charizard gets KO'd Squirtle comes out next, that is fine too. Also if you are worried about the imfamous chain grab to spike, don't, just save your jump and then when you get spiked, use that jump and then recover. Despite Squirtle is the best choice for starting, over much discussion there has been shown proof that Charizard and Ivysaur may too start against Falco.

Ivysaur- Ivysaur can also have a chance to start against falco. Now, there is no possible way for Ivysaur to duck under laser spam, however, Ivysaur does have razor leaf, all that really needs to be done here is to jump and use razor leaf upon your approach. However, regulate your jumps and razor leafs, you don't want a reflected razor leaf or a misjump and then you can't react when Falco decides to attack. Next thing that is advantageous about Ivy is that her attacks are made for heavy characters like Faclo, so if you need someone who can rack up damage with few attacks, Ivy is your Pokemon, bullet seed is a good way to get that damage, however, I'd suggest one of the first things you should do is Nair to bullet seed, if DI's right, you can easily follow up with bullet seed and you got yourself an easy 50-60% lead, or however much an almost or even a full bullet seed does. The only major concern is Ivy's gimpability, the CG to spike, might be a concern for Ivy, however, just the same, keep your last jump until you are spiked then recover. It is recomended that Ivy is used for a damage racker than then change to Charizard for the kill when the moment is right.

Charizard- Like Ivysaur, Charizard too can start against Falco, however like Ivysaur, he too has a few risks of his own, how dire is up to how well you play him. Charizard too can not duck under the laser spam, approaching will be very difficult because of Falco's short hop double laser attack. However, there is an upside and a downside to this. The downside of this is of course, he will take damage, how much is up to you, the upside however, is the more damage he takes, the less likely falco can CG and spike you. Now once in range, Charizard can do some damage with flamethrower and rock smash. However, you must regulate how much you use these two moves, despite how effective they wil be against Falco to rack up damage, they can be reflected. Charizard here will be a durable starter, so it is up to you if you want to see him through the whole stock, after all, Charizard can take punishment and unload some punishment himself. Keep in mind that his tilts are a very powerful weapon, and they are fast too, like his down tilt which at high percents, can kill.

Page: 12 - 17

In my opinion, I think Squirtle is the best here. He's small, agile and can duck under the laser, plus I remember Reflex showing a vid of him u-tilt locking a Falco up 40-45%.

Ivysaur can't duck under lasers and is outcamped. I suppose you could bait reflector and try to punish assuming you were able to get within punishing range of Falco. Overall, this is a battle of bad recoveries and I have to say Falco has more of an advantage in the fight. If you were able to get him offstage, I think Ivy would do just fine, however in the long-run, I don't feel comfortable starting with Ivysaur.

Charizard is just a fat target for laser and even for getting chaingrabbed. You could give Falco a 20-30% handicap just to prevent from being chaingrabbed but I think it would be a bit troublesome.

 

[Tesh]

Its not wise to let the spike send you offstage. Even with your double jump, Squirtle isn't very difficult to gimp/edgehog.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Ivysaur is worthless for starting in this matchup. The only thing she is capable of doing is MAYBE landing a KO move, but you cannot hope to deal damage reliably. Falco is too light to expect Bullet Seed to work. He can either camp with impunity since we don't move fast enough to reliably catch him, or he can Dash Attack/Jab/aerial at virtually no risk to himself.

Charizard is at least fast enough to compete with Falco's Phantasm and has enough range to poke decently, but, he still has his own set of problems. If we get grabbed at a low percent, we take, like, 80% minimum. You can Rock Smash his N-Air approach and his well-spaced pokes; your run speed and good projectile both allow you to pressure him. Charizard is...doable, but, it definitely makes the most sense to start with Squirtle.

 

[CoonTail]

Ivy vs Falco is a nightmare because of her inability to get away from lasers + aweful aerial mobility. Put these together and no matter whether your grounded or aerial, your in bad position.

WELP!

 

[Aposl]

a lot of people dont know that Charizards rock can absorb one laser right as his head hits the rock, this is good for defend ing against laser to jab/grab because it removes the laser and hits falco with rock smash

 

[CoonTail]

Well laser also in general set off RSCA which is a lot easier to space, deffinitly some neat knowledge tho Aposl!

 

[Unsound_Shinobi]

Sorry to but in right here at what seems to be the end, but something about Falco's chaingrab that I've noticed, if you constantly mash jump and DI towards him and upwards you can footstool him out of the chain grab.

 

[Myollnir]

Unfortunately, Falco's chaingrab is inescapable if done correctly at the right percents.

 

[Unsound_Shinobi]

Okay so that's just them messing up then? Probably grabbing late I think in that case cause I'm usually below 20% when I get out sorry for the bad data, if it helps any most Falcos I play have a hard time getting the spike if you hold your jump for a second once hit off stage, I think they trained to always spike the immediate second jump though, so I don't think that would hold against the pro falcos.

 

[Tesh]

They spike you during the "stun" from dthrow. You cannot use your double jump if done properly. The smartest thing to do is SDI up and towards the stage so you don't die. Preferably you want to tech as well.

 

[Unsound_Shinobi]

Haha I need to find me a good Falco haha, I generally open with Charizard against Falco though, just because I like to open with Charizard, punish hard core, with sh rock smashing, then I follow up with Squirtle who is my worst of the three, but racks damage fairly well, and then Venesaur for the final power hit. Sorry I'm not very descriptive, I use rock smash, flame thrower, and tilts with Charizard, down tilt, forward tilt, over b, and try and gimp with neutral b, and BS with forward tilt, and nair with ivysaur.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Rock Smash shorthop lasers. If you manage to get in his face, you can go between Rock Smash (trades with Jab, gets set off by some aerials, beats spotdodge, great risk/reward), U-Smash (catches Falco before he can get a low laser off, can be done out-of-shield to beat Jab) and spotdodge (is relatively safe overall, gives you frame advantage if he rolls, can help you pressure Phantasm). If you get a grab, you can U-Throw and attempt to juggle (probably the best option) or B-Throw and try to pressure with another grab, a read on his roll, or Rock Smash his quick attacking options.

As Squirtle, crouch his lasers and be really patient. If you're smart about keeping yourself safe, he won't be able to land the B-Air he needs for the KO, so he will have to resort to unsafe Smash attacks. F-Tilt, D-Tilt, shellshift B-Air and grab. U-Throw if Falco doesn't have many platforms to work with, but F-Throw can help you follow up at low percents otherwise. Don't run into F-Tilts or B-Airs--Make him come to you at all costs.

As Ivysaur, you should probably just switch. If you switch on the edge of a platform, he'll have to settle for something like grab -> D-Air on Charizard, which isn't too terrible. If you have to, poke with D-Tilt and B-Air in order to keep him off you. Dash Attack can beat Phantasm if you space it well. Dash Attack and walk away -> F-Smash as a read are probably your most reliable KO moves, but neither are safe. If you manage to grab him, you can either throw him offstage with F-Throw/B-Throw (if the edge is close enough) and try to punish him when he gets off the ledge, or you can U-Throw and try to hit him while he falls. For when he's offstage, you can throw a Razor Leaf or RAR B-Air past the ledge to stuff his backward jump -> Phantasm attempts. If he jumps low, you can run off and N-Air/D-Air, but if you guess incorrectly, you're probably dead. If he tries to laser onto the stage, you can D-Tilt, B-Air, or F-Tilt to stuff it. Just try not to let his Phantasm go unpunished. For when you U-Throw him, either U-Air to beat an aerial or wait for an airdodge and F-Air him. These options are only useful if you're Ivysaur while Falco is at high percents. A Falco with little damage is pretty much impossible for Ivysaur to deal with.

 

[Bomber7]

Wow, I completely forgot about this thread. Thank you for posting Reflex or I would have never remembered. Now that exams are out the way, I'll let this discussion go on until the end of the week and then we shall move on.

Thank you to all who have posted.

 

[CoonTail]

I will post tonight because I have found quite the batch of info on falco!

 

[Bomber7]

Fox take Two

Well, I didn't get as much info about Falco as I had expected but by the looks of it, the starting MU is pretty cut and dry. Sorry about such a ridiculously long delay. Here's what we have on Fox from the last time we discussed him.

I've had a lot of Fox experience with one of my friends who used to main him. Granted I always started Squirtle, but we were evenly matched so I'd KO him, he'd KO me and we'd start our next stock at 0% and I'd begin the next stock with the next pokemon. I have to say I didn't have any problems with how any of the pokemon were able to fight Fox.

Squirtle was always my best for starting, I would manage to rack up damage quickly but after a minute of two I would have to switch because it would just turn into trading hits and plus when some damage accumulated, Fox would just shove his goofy shoe where the sun don't shine and KO me. Pretty much everything in Squirtle's arsenal is useful against Fox. So I definitely give a thumbs up for Squirtle.

Ivysaur I always had fun with when playing against Fox. My only complaint is that my friend was able to SDI bullet seed so well, it would leave me open, but in the same respect, I was able to bait his reflector and punish him. Nair always proved useful along with Bair. Nair -> f-tilt was useful for me, BS -> ftilt (I baited myself for that one to work). It's been a long time since I last played his Fox and my playing has certainly evolved since then so I don't know 100% how well my Ivysaur would do against my friend's Fox. I'd still give a thumbs up to starting Ivysaur.

Charizard, I'd say is still doable. There were time when I felt like I couldn't do a thing with him but take the beatings which would lead to the inevitable KO, other times, I'd be the one dominating the stock. My favorite was punishing Fox's side-B with rocksmash. I guess logically speaking, we could say we can punish Fox's recovery with flamethrower? I know we wouldn't have much trouble grabbing him and throwing him off stage. I wouldn't recommend taking the fight to the air, but Bair was about the only aerial move I found useful against Fox. Charizard's tilts and jabs worked fine for me. As such, just like my Ivysaur game, Charizard has evolved since then and I'm not 100% sure how he would do against my friend's Fox (win or lose) or any Fox player for that matter.


Starter(s): Squirtle Ivysaur

Summary:
Squirtle- Squirtle here is one of the ideal choices to start against Fox. Squirtle's speed and agility ae perfect for racking up damage quickly against fox. Another key attribute is that he can crawl under laser spams which will make fox come to you. If knowlegable of how to counter attack against a charging opponent, the approaching Fox will be owned. Squirtle's aerials and tilts will give Fox a pain in the rear in the long run. Best of all, through many, many fights with a friend who plays Fox, if you ever lose track of what you are doing and don't switch before 60-70%, if you are at that point where Fox is around late 90's to 100% then a well placed hydroplane upsmash will kill. Preferably I noticed, even with momentum cancel DI, Fox is KO's at 102%. Starting with squirtle sets up the perfect time to switch to Ivysaur for the kill.

Ivysaur- Ivysaur is another good choice to go against Fox. Laser spam is not that much of a problem due to it's lack of knock back however it does dd up % in the long run. An easy way to break up the spam is to approch while using razor leaf, but like with Falco, watch that it doesn't turn into spam to where it is reflected. That way if they reflect and you don't use razor leaf, you can punish. Also Ivysaur can space quite well against Fox, not to mention can rack up damage quite well against him too. Nairs are very effective against Fox, along with tilts. Also there is no worry about a chain grab to spike like there is with Falco. Relatively the fight side against Fox is easy for Squirtle and Ivy because of their ability to rack damage easily and switching to the next pokemon to make the kill. Like Ivy is for squirtle, Charizard is for Ivy.

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