Choosing Your Starter: IKE take TWO

[Jet300]

Fox vs Ivysaur +1
Ivysaur can get pass fox lazer camping and Nair him. But racks up damage crazy fast, so it's best to stay in the middle of him. His long range keeps fox from getting to close th do his fast racking combos. His up smash is strong and fast, and ivy's up smash is stronger than his but, it's slow, so you might not want to use it. Fox is the 7th lightest character in the game.
He shouldn't be so hard to kill.

Charizard vs fox +1 fox
Fox can only camp charizard with a SHTL since hes the biggest of the group. Due to his size, hes quite easy to combo and due to fox fast racking combos. Charizard will reach to the percentage that can kill him with an Upsmash. Fox is the 7th lightest character in brawl. Charizard can fox with no problem.

 

[Player-1]

Squirtle, Ivy, and Charizard all +4 Fox so it's pretty irrelevant which one you start off with

 

[CoonTail]

^this
Yet this MU is listed as a -2 for PT and the only one of the three I find that is at rough disadvantage is Zard due to his huge combo-bag self.

I mean honestly I have never ever seen the -2 in this MU and can say I that this is most likely the one MU for PT I know the best.

 

[fox67890]

P1 always be trolling about fox. :\


Honestly, I don't know this MU, so I can't really help too much. Sowwy~

But... is this a MU thread or just a "which starter should I choose thread"? I'm kinda confused about that.


Um, like I said, I don't know this MU, but I don't really see how Ivy "breaks up" Fox's camping. To my knowledge, razor leaf has a fare amount of start up lag and you can easily see it coming (I think Ivy also makes an obvious noise when he does razor leaf?). There should be more than enough time to react, such that fox should never just throw up a shine and hope that Ivy does a razor leaf. In the event Fox actually does reflect a razor leaf, he can do certain actions out of shine, which you can see here.

If you guys need help in actually discussing the MU, I might be able to help a little bit, but not much.

Uh, I recommend Squirtle as a starter.
Ivy... I guess could work.
I don't recommed Charizard.

 

[Tesh]

Squirtle can do some nasty stuff to Fox. Maybe 0 or +1. Most importantly is the other 2 are much worse vs Fox at low percents than they are at mid percents, making them worse starters.

Ivysaur cannot keep fast characters out with his spacing game and Fox use Charizard for combo video material.

 

[Player-1]

I'm not trolling

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Ivysaur doesn't have to keep them out in the same way that the character would against most opponents. The idea is to give Fox things to run into. Keep hitboxes in the places where he wants to be. Use aerials where he could D-Air or F-Air. Razor Leaf the ground so he can't just run on the ground constantly. Pivot grab and outrange. It's not a terrible matchup, I think

 

[Tesh]

Side B:
Start up: 1-21
Hit: 22-69
End: 50
Hit Lag: 1 | 1
Shield Hit Stun - | 10

Razer Leaf won't stop him from doing anything. Its easy to power shield/reflect or SHAD past it with plenty of time to punish however he wants to.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I mean, if he's just in neutral position when you start it, yeah, but, why would you do that? If you get a later hit, he can't do anything, and must avoid a follow-up move unless he goes out of his way to avoid the situation.

 

[CoonTail]

Not to mention any stage with platforms allows us to toss razor leaves while sliding off of the given platform making it hard to punish us for, this can be applied for edges also.

I mean all I ever hear is razor leaf is a bad move yet unless you are attemtping to thow it in their face its pretty solid. Personally I find throwing razor leaves as Fox attempts to land is really solid since he doesn't have many options to get around it that won't leave him in a bad position.

We can also consistently use razorleaf to stuff illusion if he attempts to recover over the ledge.

Either way I owe a large write-up on this and sorry Tesh but your wrong razor leaf has a place in this MU for sure.

 

[fox67890]

I mean, most likely razor leaf won't be hitting fox. Even if he can't punish it on reaction, he can still reflect it and laser out of shine, so I don't really see why you would want to do that.

Platforms benefit fox greatly. In terms of lasering, if you are standing on a platform, you'll get hit with two lasers per short hop rather than one.

I don't even think throwing out razor leaf as fox is landing to be really good. Taking advantage of fox's landing is really hard compared to other characters due to shine stalling. Fox outclasses almost everyone when it comes to vertical spacing.

In terms of recovering, fox can wait out everything Ivy throws with shine stalling and rising fair.

 

[Tesh]

Not to mention any stage with platforms allows us to toss razor leaves while sliding off of the given platform making it hard to punish us for, this can be applied for edges also.

I mean all I ever hear is razor leaf is a bad move yet unless you are attemtping to thow it in their face its pretty solid. Personally I find throwing razor leaves as Fox attempts to land is really solid since he doesn't have many options to get around it that won't leave him in a bad position.

We can also consistently use razorleaf to stuff illusion if he attempts to recover over the ledge.

Either way I owe a large write-up on this and sorry Tesh but your wrong razor leaf has a place in this MU for sure.

Razor leaf isn't like ZSS aerials where they wind up being "slow" because she has to jump and then land with them. Its JUST SLOW. 20 frames before you even have the first hitbox in front of you. If you run off a platform, you still have 20 frame before it starts up. That means Fox can come at you and jump through it and do whatever he wants. If he was in the air and has to land where razor leaf will be, he can just stall with his reflector and if it still hits him, he will be unharmed and you will have no frame advantage to use against him.

SH lasers can easily outcamp Ivysaur and the clock is ticking way against you anyway. Lasers are lagless on landing and razor leaf is slow. Fox will outcamp you easily. Once you start jumping and getting closer than max range, your landings are easily punished by Fox.

Close range, Fox is still advantaged. He has his jab, his shine, quick tilts and can kill you while in CQC. Every quick move Ivy has is risky.

Fox beats Ivy everywhere. Long range, mid range, CQC, better recovery and for this matchup he has a much very shot at gimping (though he won't even need to bother with it)

I don't think its hopeless for Ivy, but Fox is at least +2 on him. Not a good starter choice.

I mean, most likely razor leaf won't be hitting fox. Even if he can't punish it on reaction, he can still reflect it and laser out of shine, so I don't really see why you would want to do that.

Platforms benefit fox greatly. In terms of lasering, if you are standing on a platform, you'll get hit with two lasers per short hop rather than one.

I don't even think throwing out razor leaf as fox is landing to be really good. Taking advantage of fox's landing is really hard compared to other characters due to shine stalling. Fox outclasses almost everyone when it comes to vertical spacing.

In terms of recovering, fox can wait out everything Ivy throws with shine stalling and rising fair.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

You can change the speed and positioning of Razor Leaf so that it's not as simple to powershield and punish. Ideally, you do it so that it's low enough where they can't run past it, but high enough where the slightest bit of jump height isn't enough to avoid it. If Fox isn't waiting for it, the 19 frames where Razor Leaf is active and Ivysaur is free to attack allows you to attack with an active hitbox on the field, which is very useful.

Platforms are more beneficial for PT than Fox in this matchup, I feel. Ivysaur's and Charizard's mobility and general approaching potential is greater with a platform to work with. Squirtle can just duck under lasers anyway. These things help us get in on Fox.

Vertical spacing is harder against PT because of the characters' options. If you shine stall, aerial Bullet Seed and canceled Vine Whip can harass you. Ivysaur's U-Air outranges Fox's everything, and D-Air punishes fastfall airdodges. Charizard U-Air stays out for 22 frames and has great range throughout. Squirtle's U-Air is stupidly safe and allows you to give chase if the opponent airdodges with no problem.

 

[CoonTail]

Well to start none of you outside of Luis seem to remember that you actually can control the speed and pattern of Razor leaf. Due to this you can have a much better control over the placement of the live hit-boxes that Razor leaf creates. Once you can create options that fox now has to commit to get around it is easy to find him in bad position against Ivy. If I throw at a Razor Leaf at medium speed towards Fox's feet as he approachs and Fox attempts to shield, Fox can be shield poked quite easy if his shield is not full. On top of that if he starts taking the time to tilt his shield for an RL Ivy can now net a grab.

If Ivy begins to challenge Fox in the air with RL and force Fox into a shine stall, Fox is now in a worse position then when he was starring down the RL. Ivy now has the ability to U-Air or bullet seed all by reacting to the shine and if there is a platform to aid Ivy in chasing Fox then we can use Up-B cancels to N-Air/U-Air to pursue even faster.

Rising F-air is not outstanding against Ivy because all it means is if Fox misses Ivy will have simple Bullet seed followups. On top of that I find Fox's weakest place against Ivy is when he decides to go into the air first since U-Air and N-Air can handle most of Fox's options as he comes down. As far as triple laser goes, SH AD in place can dodge all 3 lasers from triple laser and will usually bait Fox's into pursing which can be easily pivot grabbed.

Overall guys Fox has a pretty simple approach pattern and a camp game thats really not that bothersome to dodge around figuring one bullet seed will net Fox way more damage that his triple laser is going to in a stock. Once Fox is in the air Ivy can create moving hitboxes to force options out of Fox and shine-stalling doesn't do much besides set you up to be N-Air/U-Air/or BS'd.

I personally think Fox is one of the MU's where Ivy can be see actually putting work in.

 

[Tesh]

^no need to even shield razor leaf man. Like I said, I would just SHAD through it with Fox since its so slow and laggy. It takes almost an entire second for Ivysaur to recover from razor leafing, so its not like you can follow up from it being shielded anyway.

When fox is in the air, he has the options to fall painfully slow, FFAD/Dair/Nair extremely fast and if there are platforms, he can phantasm out of juggles and Ivy would be lucky to even get a leaf in to punish him. Bair and Nair are not super scary in a juggle and Fair/Uair really require a read to land on Fox. These "moving walls" are barely moving because Ivy is so slow.

As far as bulletseed netting your more damage than lasers will....sure. But bulletseed is a risky close range option. Close range fox will do more damage to ivy than bulletseed and he has a much much easier time killing. Besides, fox is small and with proper DI he won't take much damage from bulletseed.

 

[CoonTail]

^no need to even shield razor leaf man. Like I said, I would just SHAD through it with Fox since its so slow and laggy. It takes almost an entire second for Ivysaur to recover from razor leafing, so its not like you can follow up from it being shielded anyway.

First off a good Ivy will never throw grounded RL's since they net more lag then they are worth and controlling their flight path is a lot harder. Ivy should always gonna SH -> RL and actually follow-up because the lag is much smaller allowing for follow-ups .....also a Fox SH -> AD'ing through RL is going to get grabbed figuring the spacing for throwing RL's is mid-range. Fox's major option after SH -> AD is u-tilt hence why Yui & Karamity are such fans of it. After Fox chooses to SH -> AD a RL, he will most likely U-tilt which is an easy Powershield to Bullet-seed situation for Ivy. RL is not used to punish but create options you have to move around and thus create situations where you have to commit to an option where Ivy can punish Fox mainly with a grab/BS/N-air.

When fox is in the air, he has the options to fall painfully slow, FFAD/Dair/Nair extremely fast and if there are platforms, he can phantasm out of juggles and Ivy would be lucky to even get a leaf in to punish him. Bair and Nair are not super scary in a juggle and Fair/Uair really require a read to land on Fox. These "moving walls" are barely moving because Ivy is so slow.

Falling painfully slow in the air is how Fox will get caught with Ivy's options since it is just going to give Ivy more time to line up a U-air or BS. On top of that it is going to net Fox a worse and worse situation the longer he waits/ if he wasted his double jump. FF AD will leave Fox in a position to either get hit by BS/N-air/Grab since his only major option is u-tilt when AD'ing into the ground. On top of that managing to land on a platform leaves Ivy a situation to push you off the platform with U-air for a free followup. Phantasming out of combos is always a last ditch option since Fox lags upon landing and in most cases won't have the space on stage to phantasm away safely. That sounds like a pretty situational option at best. Saying N-air isn't scary is foolish figuring it can combo into N-air/U-tilt/U-air/or F-air all based on how the initial N-air is DI'd. F-air may require a bit more of a read even though it's hitbox is enormous, but U-air is a simple punish tool as I stated earlier. These moving walls are not meant to be fast Ivy wants them to be slow and present so that it cuts off certain positions.

As far as bulletseed netting your more damage than lasers will....sure. But bulletseed is a risky close range option. Close range fox will do more damage to ivy than bulletseed and he has a much much easier time killing. Besides, fox is small and with proper DI he won't take much damage from bulletseed.

BS is close range but it's meant to punish Fox in close range combat. We have 3 frames of invincibility so its pretty easy to land if Fox is aggressive. Fox will be taking a lot of damage from Bullet seed because Fox is heavy and can't exactly DI well out of BS outside of the initial hit-box. On top of that if Ivy pivots BS, the initial pop-up hit-box of BS it becomes a lot harder to DI. Even when Fox manages DI out of it what are his options? To run away and eventually have to approach choosing to camp lasers won't build much damage. If as Fox you just hold away and attempt to toss an aerial out I can shield and bullet seed you again. If you jump and you don't have a platform right there you will have to try and find a way to land without getting grabbed.

 

[T-block]

why is fox SHAD'ing past our razor leaves again? fox can just dance around them and laser more...

lol CT, why are you talking as if ivy's grab is actually good?

 

[CoonTail]

Because all we have to do is U-throw fox and he's back to trying to land against Ivy.

This whole concept of fox easily getting out of the air against Ivy is frustrating because Ivy does a real solid job at punishing Fox's landings.

 

[T-block]

you're going to have to teach me how to consistently use a frame 13 grab to punish the landing of one of the fastest fallers in the game who also has a mixup that stalls his descent

 

[CoonTail]

Lol his stall nets him getting hit with U-air, FF -> AD nets him having less options such as U-tilt or roll which both of which we can punish with grab/shieldgrab.

Do you have issues punishing landings against this character?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Fox doesn't have many good options out of landing. Jab is usable. Shine is usable. Spotdodge isn't any more threatening than anyone else.

Dash Attack hits his landing easily if you're there. If he's gonna try and play on reaction, a regular poke or Smash read will also suffice. If he likes jumping, aerials aren't difficult to land on him in that situation, because he can't move horizontally in the air quickly.

 

[CoonTail]

Fox is incredibly limited upon landing so Ivy can easily take advantage of that with options such as dash attack and grab. Ivy can grab armor through jab and U-tilt I believe.

Hell if you predict him FF->AD and punish it with quick options Fox may resort to spot dodging. Then Ivy can land a U-smash which will kill fox around the 50-60 range as long as it's fresh.

 

[T-block]

how the hell do you punish roll with grab/shieldgrab -_-

i don't find fox's landings easier to punish than the average character tbh. his jab is fast (frame 2) and covers his landings pretty well. neither n-air nor d-air can be punished by shieldgrab, and i think fox can powershield a bullet seed OoS just by holding shield after the n-air. dash attack is nice, but it gets you hit if he decides to shine above you. all in all, it's still a guessing game, and i've never found it to be heavily skewed in ivy's favour... not like squirtle-snake or anything, which is what you guys are making it sound like.

 

[CoonTail]

You punish a roll with a grab by following the roll.

Cmon now T, sometimes I swear you pick apart my words for arguments sake.

If someone rolls and you follow the roll you can grab them out of it, am I wrong?

And you don't shield grab a roll, you shieldgrab that frame 2 jab.....since that's his only other option besides U-tilt after he lands....

 

[TheReflexWonder]

It's worth noting that Ivysaur F-Air also covers a great deal of space while actually hurting. Our hitboxes are just large and damaging enough to pose a threat to his running around.

There is enough landing lag to N-Air/B-Air out-of-shield against Fox's N-Air and N-Air/B-Air/Bullet Seed out-of-shield against Fox's D-Air.

 

[T-block]

You punish a roll with a grab by following the roll.

Cmon now T, sometimes I swear you pick apart my words for arguments sake.

If someone rolls and you follow the roll you can grab them out of it, am I wrong?

And you don't shield grab a roll, you shieldgrab that frame 2 jab.....since that's his only other option besides U-tilt after he lands....

nah dude, you're not making any sense to me

if this then do this

if he rolls then follow it

well obvs

but successfully punishing the roll requires you to make a commitment to an action that nets you either zero reward or punishment if he doesn't actually roll.

shieldgrabbing his jab is also complete bs lol

@reflex: i didn't realize you could n-air/b-air oos his n-air... that's important stuff i should probably know lol. it's a nice tool to have, but even being able to punish with n-air isn't going to allow you to juggle him indefinitely

 

[CoonTail]

nah dude, you're not making any sense to me

if this then do this

if he rolls then follow it

well obvs

I'm not making any sense......"if this then do this" well thats usually the way you explain options beating other options. This is the whole point of the discussion. If Fox does this, Ivy has multiple options that beat it and THIS should be used.

Well if it's obvs then why did I have to explain it, it should be second knowledge to understand grabbing a roll implies following it. Otherwise your just kinda talking to me like I'm an idiot.....

but successfully punishing the roll requires you to make a commitment to an action that nets you either zero reward or punishment if he doesn't actually roll.

shieldgrabbing his jab is also complete bs lol

As far as reading Fox's roll goes, it's going to play on your reaction time and attention to what options have been taken before. Fox doesn't have an outstanding roll either meaning that you have a small margin of error where you can still get the grab.

I agree shield-grabbing jab is silly but his follow-up to jab is what really deems it silly. If Fox doesn't choose a decent option to follow his jab, then he will get grabbed....

 

[T-block]

i highly HIGHLY doubt you can react to the roll and still land a grab with ivy's dash speed/grab speed. but hey, maybe i'm wrong

 

[CoonTail]

Well that chalks up to player error though, when discussing an MU isn't it assumed that it's at the highest level of play.....?

 

[Tesh]

I'm sorry but Fox shine isn't easily dealt with by Ivysaur. Shine is a 20 frame move. If you weren't already in the air AND in range to hit Fox, you cannot punish shine with Uair/Fair/Up b or anything that Fox would care about avoiding. If you try to jump as soon as you see him shining, he can airdodge past you before you land. THAT is the benefit of being a fast faller with a stalling move. In a juggle he can choose to wait you out and if you commit to rising high enough to threaten him, he can get past you. I'm not saying you can't make a read, but its not like Ivysaur is good at juggling anyone that is remotely decent as covering their own landings.

Everything that might make Fox hurt is very committed and risky. As for his landings. Assuming he actually has to land on your shield, he has options. Airdodge to spotdodge will avoid your grab easily and the risk/reward is way in your favor because Fox juggles Ivy harder and can use any of his throws to put ivy in a bad position with his blind spots and weak recovery.

Fox just has more viable options on every situation. Its not a hopeless matchup I guess, but Ivy is in no way more useful than Squirtle or Charizard as a starter.

 

[T-block]

i tend to agree with that ^

it's all about vertical mobilityyyyy

 

[Bomber7]

Well, if nothing else is going to be added, I will wrap up this discussion at the end of the week. Thanks for all the posts and information.

 

[Myollnir]

That week is quite long, isn't it? D:

Anyway, I've got nothing to say on Fox, I don't know him well.

I hope this thread won't die.

 

[Bomber7]

Mr. Game & Watch take Two

Sorry for the long delay, but here is the next discussion. As always, I have below, the information and summary from the last time we discussed him.

My thoughts: I was never good at playing the G&W MU. No matter which pokemon was out, it was a fight for survival. Squirtle did the best I guess, but G&W's turtle would eat away my shield and then the pain continued. His attacks, like fsmash are powerful and KO'd my Squirtle early. Ivysaur couldn't do too much against him and would also get KO'd early from a well placed Fsmash. Charizard wouldn't even take his first step out of his pokeball, he got KO'd so quickly. I can't provide any more information other than that, G&W has always been one of my worst MU's of all time along side Diddy Kong. So maybe this discussion will help me find a way to fight G&W effectively.


Starter(s): Ivysaur

Summary:
Ivysaur- It's already known that Pokemon Trainer going against Game & Watch is not the best match up so when choosing a starter, it may be a little difficult seeing as G&W pretty much has an advantage over each pokemon. Believe it or not, Ivysaur is the overall best option to start against G&W. Reasons being that Ivy is the only one with a good ranged attack to keep him spaced for a time being, he has overall the best move set to fight against G&W for instance his Bair. There isn't much that can be done against G&W because of how badly he can beat us up but if you take advantage of Ivy's spacing moves and ranged attacks, you should be fine. A word of warning, watch out for G&W Fsmash, it could kill you early. There have also been suggestion of switching to Charizard for the kill and possibly stock tanking him, However Charizard will get beat up pretty bad. Another suggestion is that Squirtle could possibly start, the only problem with squirtle is that he has to get up close to attack and up close G&W will pretty much win that fight unless you are super cautious and space yourself well.

Page: 19 - 22

 

[T-block]

mm...i get mixed feelings on ivysaur vs GW. i think squirtle does much better than we originally gave him credit for in the previous description, and i think starting squirtle is a much more solid choice.

i'll see if i can elaborate later

 

[Damittom]

I gotta agree that from the other side of the match-up Ivy is so much more annoying to fight than the other pokes, which pretty much wrecks

 

[TheReflexWonder]

40-posts-per-page master race. All the G&W talk happens on my page 8.

 

[SFA Smiley]

I disagree I think squirtle is the hardest. I think Ivy has a few things going for him but overall I feel squirtle's fast start-up on basically everything allows him to beat us out and also more effectively punish our stuff. And KOing isn't as much as a bain as normal because we are the same weight (although we have bucket braking)

Charizard gets *****

I don't know much about fighting Ivy because anytime i've had to play one as gdubs the life ended too fast to learn something.

 

[Rizen]

Char's an easy target for damage building and KOs. G&W can escape bad situations with his upB and bucket flamethrower for when squirt emerges. Char's best to be sacrificed but Char's grab range and running Usmash should make (relatively) good counters to several of G&W's actions if he's careless.

IMO Ivy is the best starter for reasons people already mentioned.
G&W has wicked punishing abilities so make sure vine whip/bullet seed etc will hit. G&W loves his air game but is very light himself so things like Ivy's Uair can KO early too. G&W's Nair is really good; Ivy should chip away at G&W's damage with disjointed attacks. Ivy is the only pokemon who can make good use of her disjoint besides grabs and a few exceptions. FYI both characters have fast, mostly safe dash attacks and Dtilts; good ground blitz and anti-ground blitz moves.

Squirt's short reach hurts him but he is faster than G&W too. Squirt's grabs used as punishes are probably most effective; G&W has several moves when spacing errors have windows to be shield grabbed. I'd save squirt to be fresh for when G&W already has some damage. Note that G&W's Dtilt has good reach above and in front of G&W and can stop low aerial approaches as well as hydroplaning.

I don't have tons of experience with this MU but that's my 2 cents.

 

[Dexident]

I have always experienced the most trouble against Ivysaur mostly due to the reach and angle of Ivy's f-air, b-air and bullet seed. Those moves make a lot of GW's (at least my GW's) approaches more difficult. But Bullet seed is highly punishable if it is not correctly landed.

A good squirtle can be challenging but is never as aggravating and scary as a good Ivysaur.