Choosing Your Starter: IKE take TWO

[Vermanubis]

DLA's on point with the MU summary. Only thing I'd throw in is that Charizard's reverse rock smash makes his landings relatively safe. Even on shield, rock smash is pretty hard to punish. I also think his recovery is slightly difficult to gimp. I think it's one of those theoretically easy gimps, like DK. DK is easy to gimp in theory, but the timing and positioning required is pretty tight. 9/10 I see Ganon barely miss it and get hit with the Up-B instead.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

The Ganondorf players know what they're talking about.

 

[Myollnir]

I believe you are the "good PT experience"?

I'm fine with what they said. But I don't think Ivysaur is even/disadvantaged ; however, I've never played a good Ganon and I won't be able to, so I can't prove you wrong.

I can see Charizard being even though.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Just ftr I like to hold up chainchoking, but I do know it is negligible lol.

Someday I'll master it and show you all lol.

 

[DLA]

After side B, dash attack is guaranteed on every character that Dtilt is guaranteed on, since they come out on the same frame. Same with Ftilt, assuming the character has a big enough hurtbox on the ground to get hit by Ftilt.

I actually prefer to pressure Charizards landings from the air... in other words jump at him while he's landing to force an air dodge, then fast fall and punish the air dodge from the ground. Usually if you jump at him, he won't have time to properly space a landing rock smash or flamethrower. Ganon's very good at doing this because he has a short jump and a quick fast fall. IIRC, Charizard's air dodge is awful so this strategy usually works great.

As far as Charizard's recovery, I tend to edgeguard him by actively going after him offstage before he even gets close to the ledge. I just jump offstage and Uair him (not tipman). Either that or I jump at him and force the air dodge, then do something nasty to him like Dair spike him. I stay out of his Fair range (at least, the strong hitbox that actually has knockback). If you let him get too close to the ledge, then yes, he will get there safely with his up B super armor.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

actually DLA I thought Squirtle could escape dash attack because of his air speed if he holds away?

I'll test later actually.

 

[DLA]

actually DLA I thought Squirtle could escape dash attack because of his air speed if he holds away?

I'll test later actually.

I don't think so... the only way a character can escape dash attack is if they are able to DI behind Ganondorf after the flame choke, and I think only Wario and maybe one other character can do that. Either way, best not to advertise it hmmmmm? XD

 

[Myollnir]

Okay for the SideB-> D-Tilt thing, thanks.


Charizard has the 2nd best airdodge in the game (frame-wise), tied with Squirtle, Ivysaur and plenty of other characters like Wario, etc...

Going offstage with Ganon is risky, isn't it? I believe Charizard can use his jumps to avoid your U-air, but he's in a bad situation after unless he hits you (and you're pretty much done, although it shouldn't happen). Also, D-air is so easy to SDI + tech, you can't rely on it unless you're going like really far away (for Ganon) from the edge.

But yeah, U-air seems to do a great job at preventing Zard to safely grab the ledge, I'll trust you on this one.

 

[DLA]

Oh okay, so Charizard's air dodge is really good, not really bad. I knew it was one of the extremes. Either way, considering how big Charizard's hurtbox is, his air dodge should still be very easy to punish if you know it's coming.

And yes Charizard has a few jumps he can use to his advantage, but they're usually easy to expect and they don't really send Charizard very far. And you usually want to avoid using your jumps unnecessarily, because once you use them, they're gone. And that usually means you're dead if you get hit again.

As for the Dair--I'm not sure you're imagining the situation I'm describing the right way. Imagine that Ganon knocks you into the magnified part of the upper right half of the screen. You make it halfway back to the stage and use two of your jumps in the process. Then you see Ganon dash, jump off the stage, and fly straight at you in what looks like an attempt to Uair you. What do you do? If you use your third jump, he can still hit you. If you try to Fair him, you'll likely trade and lose the two jumps you already used, and therefore die. So then the best option is air dodge, right? Well the Ganon knows this too, so he just waits for you to air dodge, then once it's over, he Dairs you and you die. You're nowhere close to the stage so there's no way you can SDI+tech.

 

[T-block]

DLA whyyyy didn't we play at Genesis ='(

Reverse u-air will destroy a Charizard that tries to recover low for the ledge, but DI on the f-tilt, two midair jumps, and a glide are more than enough to make the gimp out of "likely". If Charizard can't recover higher, he often has the option of gliding under the stage.

 

[DLA]

Go to APEX and we'll play all you want there!

And yeah the "likely" part was meant more for Ivysaur. I won't pretend to have a super high success rate with edgeguarding Charizard, but I still feel very confident that Ganon can do it when he needs it.

 

[Myollnir]

And yes Charizard has a few jumps he can use to his advantage, but they're usually easy to expect and they don't really send Charizard very far. And you usually want to avoid using your jumps unnecessarily, because once you use them, they're gone. And that usually means you're dead if you get hit again.

As for the Dair--I'm not sure you're imagining the situation I'm describing the right way. Imagine that Ganon knocks you into the magnified part of the upper right half of the screen. You make it halfway back to the stage and use two of your jumps in the process. Then you see Ganon dash, jump off the stage, and fly straight at you in what looks like an attempt to Uair you. What do you do? If you use your third jump, he can still hit you. If you try to Fair him, you'll likely trade and lose the two jumps you already used, and therefore die. So then the best option is air dodge, right? Well the Ganon knows this too, so he just waits for you to air dodge, then once it's over, he Dairs you and you die. You're nowhere close to the stage so there's no way you can SDI+tech.

If Charizard's on the upper right half of the screen, he can just glide, Ganon can't go that high (except with his awesome super jump! hahaha).

But let's say we're in the situation you're talking about. Charizard's just has to jump + airdodge. The D-air is now techable (and I think Zard can walljump and F-air but I'm not sure).

The Ganon has to guess if Charizard is going to airdodge after his jump or not. If he guesses correctly and U-air, then yeah Charizard is in a terrible situation, but he can still recover with his UpB since Ganon is no longer on the stage and can't go very far away from the ledge. But he can force Zard to land on the stage with his UpB -> hard punish.

 

[DLA]

I mean we're in heavy theorycraft mode right now, but yeah you've got the right idea. The point is, if Ganon correctly guesses what Charizard is doing, then Charizard has a good chance of dying. A lot of people don't realize how nasty Ganon can be offstage to a good half of the entire cast.

 

[Myollnir]

I agree with your last two posts.

I think Charizard and Ivysaur can also gimp him back just like he can do : this is far from being guaranteed, but if you're not careful or you get mindgamed, you're likely to die.

 

[Rizen]

...and why are we scared of Ganondorf's juggles? Multiple jumps + landing with Flamethrower, with the option of B-reversal should be more than enough to mitigate the threat of Ganondorf keeping us in the air. He doesn't have the horizontal movement, either on the ground or in the air, to reliably continue to punish that.

Char and Ivy's air movement speed is not good and Ganon's Uair starts frame 6 with a huge attack area around him. I've seen Ganons Uair after SDIing a move. And the flame choke combos people mentioned set things up.
Ganon's air juggles aren't continuous like ZSS's but rather a short chain of hits followed by a 'try to return to the ground and I'll hit you away' strategy.

never, ever disrespect our moveset.

Just remember: DO NOT RELY ON A SPECIFIC TACTIC WORKING. Because we will eventually get around it,

The Ganondorf players know what they're talking about.

^these.

I don't know who to start with. Here's what I observed from using PT and Ganon that hasn't been talked about:
Char and Squirt have wicked grab games and Brawl is a very grab based game. IMO this is PT's best defense vs Ganon, it's easy OoS, little lag, puts Ganon in a bad place and their grab range is huge.
Ivy can space but is the easiest to punish if you mess up. Ivy's also easy to gimp and slow in the air. Ganon can seriously wreck with close to the stage interceptions. If PT players go for anything with lag be sure you hit. This applies to anyone vs Ganon but especially Ivy.
Squirt has a frame 1 jab, Ganon has frame 8. The pokemon all have good GTFO tactics as long as you don't get greedy and Ganon wants to get in.
Every pokemon can grab and throw or do something to allow a safe switch to the next if they maintain control.
Ganon's slow but can shield as fast as anyone. Ganon has a worse shield grab/OoS but does have one that shields frame 2 (I think) and grabs after 7 more frames. His throws then can be use to put PT in a bad position.
Ganon can also SH>immediately downB murder quake (is that term right?) Squirt even when crouching.
Ganon can KO after landing just a handful of moves. Ganon's weight will let him survive sheer power KOs.
Ganon's easy to chain damage on, throw offstage and intercept. Ganon can intercept well too. Both sides must be smart to recover/intercept but can successfully do either.

I don't have a ton of experience for either end of this MU. IMO it's +2 Squirt, +1 Char, 0 Ivy (maybe slightly in Ganon's favor). And IMO Squirt should start and try to get the lead.

 

[Tesh]

Can't charizard just glide low to where ganon can't reach him?

Also what can Ganon do to Squirtle out of a grab release?

 

[DLA]

Can't charizard just glide low to where ganon can't reach him?

Also what can Ganon do to Squirtle out of a grab release?

It's risky, Ganon can reach very low with a ledge drop reverse Uair. And considering it's a semi-spike, Charizard definitely doesn't want to get hit by it.

I think Ganon might have wizkick out of grab release on Squirtle. Kind of useless because I'm pretty sure Fthrow does more damage than wizkick.

 

[Tesh]

no release to aerudo or regrab?


Honestly, I think if Ganondorf just abuses fatigue, Squirtle isn't that bad either.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

If we abuse fatigue squirtle gains a chaingrab on us.

 

[CoonTail]

Lol squirtle can f-throw CG x3 on ganon at 0% unfatigued. If you fatigue us it just gets worse.

EDIT**

The ganon boards are deffinitly really on point though. Good stuff guys theres a lot of info here that while it may not be exactly the most usable knowledge since ganon is a minimally used character, it's still really good info.

Thanks DLA, Verm, & Supreme!!

 

[Tesh]

How bad does it get? I can't imagine its that bad if it doesn't help Squirtle kill Ganon.

 

[T-block]

I don't think fatigue is all that relevant in the grand scheme of things when it comes to the Ganondorf matchup x.x

 

[Bomber7]

I don't think fatigue is all that relevant in the grand scheme of things when it comes to the Ganondorf matchup x.x

Imo, fatigue isn't at all relevant in the grande scheme of things no matter who you are playing against. Though, that's just my humbled opinion.

Overall, I think no matter who you play with, just be a little cautious because Ganon can punish you and with his strength, it doesn't take too many punishments for you to lose a stock.

 

[Bomber7]

Well, unless there is any more debate, I will close the discussion this weekend and we can move on.

 

[Bomber7]

Ice Climbers take Two

Well the board could use a little more activity again. I've been distracted with many things and forgot about this thread. Anyway, here is what we have for ice climbers.


Starter(s): Squirtle Charizard

Summary:
Squirtle- When it comes to Ice Climbers, Squirtle is a great choice to start out with, he is good as a base for most possible strategies you could have against Ice Climbers. The main focus here is to keep the two separated and eventually lead to the elimination of the other Ice Climber, leaving the other one alone. This shouldn't be too hard for Squirtle seeing as he is very mobile. With Squirtle basically bouncing off the walls and all over the stage keeping one Climber away from the other, the pressure is on. The only things to be mindful of is that Squirtle is light and Ice Climbers can pack a powerful punch in some of their attacks, so Squirtle can get KO'd early. The other thing is the Ice Climber's chain grab, it can be devastating to any of the three however, because of Squirtle's great mobility, there shouldn't be a high chance of him being chain grabbed and possibly gimped because of it. Either once Ice Climbers is overall pretty beat up and fairly separated or even struggling to recover, or even down to a single Ice Climber, it would be best to switch to Ivysaur to finish the stock and go to Charizard. It is suggested that you switch to Ivysaur when Ice Climbers is alone.

Charizard- Charizard is the other best choice to go against Ice Climbers. The best option as concerning to opening strategy would be play a good pressure/ spacing game with Flamethrower, rock smash and Charizard's tilts and maybe throw in a random Bair. There shouldn't be much worry about the mini glacier hurting you because flamethrower will repel that. Be very mindful that because of Charizard's size and weight, he is prone to a serious chain grab. Charizard otherwise has nothing much to worry about, he is a durable starter and can rack up damage just the same. If worst comes to worst, you can make a sacrificial switch to Squirtle, take the KO and have Ivysaur come out to rack more damage or even kill. Using Fair when the time is right (more likely off stage) is an excellent to to get them separated. With Charizard, once the two are separated, it won't be long until you get Ice Climbers alone, and that won't be too hard.

Page: 23 - 26

Over time, I've gotten a better idea of what IC is like and it's scary. The best way I can sum it up is that it's a do or die MU. If you can play patient and space IC, then you win, but mess up once and get grabbed and it's game over. Reflex showed me how doable the MU is with PT. He started out with Ivysaur and then switched to Charizard. It's also important to finish off Nana, an easy concept to understand but can be trickier to pull off. I know for certain from past experience that Charizard is a good choice against IC.

I experienced first hand how bad of an idea it is to start with Squirtle. Squirtle has to get in close to really do anything which all IC has to do is shield grab you then chain grab you, leaving you minus one stock.

 

[Rizen]

That summary sounds good.
A note about ICs when they're separated: the AI one will shoot icebergs when falling down to the stage and try to return to the main IC. During this time the AI character isn't controlled by the player and is stupid. They'll run into smashes. The IC player usually tries to reunite as fast as possible which makes them somewhat predictable too.
ICs have 6 frames difference in their synchronized action timing.

Can a single IC CG any of the pokemon?

 

[Bomber7]

That summary sounds good.
A note about ICs when they're separated: the AI one will shoot icebergs when falling down to the stage and try to return to the main IC. During this time the AI character isn't controlled by the player and is stupid. They'll run into smashes. The IC player usually tries to reunite as fast as possible which makes them somewhat predictable too.
ICs have 6 frames difference in their synchronized action timing.

Can a single IC CG any of the pokemon?

As far as I know, Popo can chain crab anyone even if Nana is gone. Though if you are talking about AI Nana chain grabbing while separate from Popo, I don't know because I've never seen it done.

Edit: Which summary were you talking about? The one we had previously or my little 2 cents?

 

[Rizen]

^The post in general. IDK the MU but that sounded like a good explanation.

The single IC CG is a a pain. 1 IC is far from free but easier than 2 for sure.

I think depending on the color the lead IC changes and so do their roles. The AI IC's Fair spikes but the main's doesn't. Whether it's Popo or Nana doesn't matter.

 

[T-block]

yeah solo IC gets a few d-throws. quite a few on squirtle and charizard iirc.

one of the things i'm focusing on against ICs is to get ivysaur out when they're down to a solo climber, since ivysaur is actually really good against a solo climber, but gets wrecked hard when there's two of them from my experience

then again, i'm absolutely terrible at this matchup, so my word isn't worth much

 

[Myollnir]

This MU is hooooooorible

 

[Bomber7]

This MU is hooooooorible

but as I mentioned earlier, it is very doable. it just takes a lot of patience and skill. Though I say that on the basis that one day, all of us will play on Reflex's level, though that's not the point.

 

[Myollnir]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=246701

- 92% [29T]
- 62% [18T]
- 68% [20T]

Both characters get chaingrabbed quite hard by Sopo so even if you separate them and you get grabbed while you're at low %, you can still lose your stock.

I play both characters and I often play against the Icies so hopefully I can help a bit...

Squirtle is terrible against them. His only good tools are watergun, grab (+D-throw +gimp Nana), and obviously his good aerial game.

The Icies can outcamp Squirtle with no problem. Ice Blocks + Fatigue = you're forced to approach.

Squirtle's lack of range is really a terrible thing when approaching against the Icies. Obviously, their blizzard beats everything. More importantly, their shieldgrab / pivotgrab beat everything he has. You can't approach at all. Remember, you're playing PT so fatigue forces you to approach in a game where approaching is bad. And you can't even approach! And if you don't approach, they'll use their Ice Blocks and you'll eventually have the fatigue coming.

If you land with an aerial against them, you get shieldgrabbed. If you do something like a RAR + rising B-air, you get pivotgrabbed. If you approach on the ground, you get shieldgrabbed or dashgrabbed. If you stay grounded, you get grabbed. If you go in the air, you get U-aired or shieldgrabbed.

Even if you manage to separate them, you can't afford to get grabbed if you're at low %... Getting chaingrabbed by Popo while Nana is trying to come back and then getting 0-death'd is really frustrating.

Well, it sounds like a +4 for ICs...

But now let's get to the good stuff! Squirtle is kinda good at gimping them! N-air, with its lingering hitbox, is a solid option against their SideB. If you can, only hit Popo : Nana will be helpless. A lingering hitbox is really good against their UpB, but your own UpB is much safer with its huuuge hitboxes (the plural is important here, because beating their UpB with a move with a single hitbox is much harder ), and it allows you to recover instead of going really low with N-air.

F-air and D-air are really good to put them offstage... But it's really hard to separate them, I can only think of D-Throw atm (your grab range is way better, but don't let them get lucky with a spotdodge or by grabbing you faster).

Your spotdodge and rolls are (very?) good, so make a good use of them without getting predictable (easier said than done, I know... but hopefully you'll get my point).

Imo, Squirtle is really good at timing out Popo, because he's fast, mobile and has a couple of movement tricks, so I guess that's also a good thing...


Last but not least, the watergun! Seriously, this move is one of the best in this MU.
- It's an awesome tool for stage control. If they're pushed to the edge of the main platform, they can't retreat and they are in a terrible spot. If they're pushed on the ledge, they're also in a bad position. I can't stress enough how ledgetrapping is important in this MU.
- It "beats" Blizzard (your only option against it) by giving you stage control.
- It makes your landing easier. If it's not charged, B-reversing it while in the air is also a decent option to avoid U-airs or having your landing punished with a grab. The bad thing is that you're forced to airdodge/continue to charge it/release the charge/wait to land and cancel it with a roll/spotdodge/grab/shield. What I like to do is to make a three-quarter charge so it'll be fully charged just after you do your B-reversal, leaving you unpredictable.
- The "charge" part of the move is also nice. As I said, you can reverse your momentum while in the air. A little trick I do is SH + Breversal + Shield + Jump immediatly so the shield almost doesn't appear. You can cancel this move with a shield so you can roll (although you don't have to shield in order to roll, just press left/right), grab (same here), spotdodge (I don't think pressing down works?), jump, jump cancelled U-smash.
- The uncharged watergun has always been considered as an extremely bad move... Maybe we could find it some uses? I mean, its range is good (at least for Squirtle), it's a multi-hit and the damage is not that bad. It'll obviously never be a good move, but we're PT, so every little option helps, and I feel like this move could be used a bit more. I feel the same way about SideB (which can beat some moves on the ground) even though it's totally horrible against ICs and ZSS. Anyway, that was just something I wanted to say.

Imho, Squirtle is probably the worst to start with when it comes to fighting the ICs... along with Ivysaur probably (but I'm not sure about that). I'd say it's either -2 or -3 ( - )

I really want to see Reflex's thoughts about the - MU though.

I'll probably do a write-up about Ivy and Zard later.

 

[Bomber7]

That was some interesting information. It's crazy because it almost sounded like Squirtle was a good starter based on all the information you posted about. I think I remember last time we had agreed that Squirtle's mobility was the thing we needed for the MU to separate Popo and Nana, which is the key to the MU itself. Your information is really useful in the even Squirtle is out on the battlefield. I also really want to hear what Luis has to say about this, after all, he's the reason why I my opinion about starting Squirtle changed for this MU and I'm an avid Squirtle starter.

 

[Myollnir]

No other posts?

I'll post my Ivysaur write-up then...

Oh and btw I've read the summaries on the OP, good job Bomber!

 

[Bomber7]

Thanks. I'm trying my best to get the points across. If something comes off vague or slightly inaccurate, let me know. My summaries can be off because they are an interpretation of the posts and information given.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I know I've been lax about responses. School has been destroying me. I'm supposed to be studying for three exams this week.

 

[Bomber7]

Take your time. The discussion isn't going anywhere.

 

[Myollnir]

Good luck for you exams!

 

[TheReflexWonder]

This matchup isn't especially difficult or complicated. We have the tools to keep Ice Climbers limited to a relatively simple gameplan. They win, but, it's not by a great deal.

I prefer to start with Charizard, but Ivysaur and Squirtle both do okay, as well.

Squirtle risks the most by starting out because he has the fewest tools to deal with Ice Climbers' camping and many of his separation options only work well at mid percents and outright lose to pivot grab. Water Gun works well to prevent the opponent from attempting to Blizzard wall, as it pushes them well since they're not moving forward in that case. The real problem is that if Ice Climbers read a B-Air, you lose a stock. If you get a grab while they're not separated, IMMEDIATELY D-Throw.

Ivysaur is alright because Razor Leaf outright beats their projectiles and our best pokes don't put us in range to get grabbed when shielded. Unfortunately, Ivysaur doesn't have any especially good separation tools, but she can win the game of attrition if she's smart about limiting Ice Climbers' movement. Grab is the best separation tool she has, but it's very risky for obvious reasons. Use your best judgment with that.

Charizard is probably the best starter overall because Flamethrower deals with camping pretty well and he has good separation tools, so it takes the least amount of work to get in a good position. Wavebounce and B-Reverse Rock Smash is good sparingly to be unpredictable (otherwise it'll be shielded/rolled around and you'll lose a stock). B-Throw is a great separation options, and U-Smash/B-Air helps to deal with Ice Climbers' Forward-B and short-hop N-Air stuff.

 

[Myollnir]

This matchup isn't especially difficult or complicated. We have the tools to keep Ice Climbers limited to a relatively simple gameplan. They win, but, it's not by a great deal.

I prefer to start with Charizard, but Ivysaur and Squirtle both do okay, as well.

Squirtle risks the most by starting out because he has the fewest tools to deal with Ice Climbers' camping and many of his separation options only work well at mid percents and outright lose to pivot grab. Water Gun works well to prevent the opponent from attempting to Blizzard wall, as it pushes them well since they're not moving forward in that case. The real problem is that if Ice Climbers read a B-Air, you lose a stock. If you get a grab while they're not separated, IMMEDIATELY D-Throw.

Ivysaur is alright because Razor Leaf outright beats their projectiles and our best pokes don't put us in range to get grabbed when shielded. Unfortunately, Ivysaur doesn't have any especially good separation tools, but she can win the game of attrition if she's smart about limiting Ice Climbers' movement. Grab is the best separation tool she has, but it's very risky for obvious reasons. Use your best judgment with that.

Charizard is probably the best starter overall because Flamethrower deals with camping pretty well and he has good separation tools, so it takes the least amount of work to get in a good position. Wavebounce and B-Reverse Rock Smash is good sparingly to be unpredictable (otherwise it'll be shielded/rolled around and you'll lose a stock). B-Throw is a great separation options, and U-Smash/B-Air helps to deal with Ice Climbers' Forward-B and short-hop N-Air stuff.

: How do you get in and separate them? That's a tough part of this MU...

: What do you mean by "limiting Ice Climbers' movement"? Yeah, the grab is the best separation tool, but as you said, it's very risky, so when do we have to use it? I usually try a grab after a Razor Leaf, but if it misses, I'm dead... They'll get in pretty quick, so I don't know what should I do to separate them when they get close and I can't retreat...

: They'll not approach and throw IBs at you, if you FT them, it'll be stale + you'll eventually get fatigued... If the FT get read they'll roll behind and grab. And you're not gonna rack up many damage with it if they don't dash towards it or something... :/